Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    How did you know I just backed up real fast to get out of reach
    of a stranger intruding well into my circle of comfort -- and I
    knocked over a pile of those plastic hanging files . . . 
    
    At least he knows what he did wrong!
    
    --bonnie

    re.1
    
    Are you sure he knows? 
    
    .0
    
    
    When I am in the company of strangers I have a very definite "off
    limits" circle around me. This usually only lasts during the first
    meeting. After that my circle decreases with every additional meeting
    there on. I am my nature a physical person, meaning that I usually
    touch the person that I am addressing. I am very attuned to other's
    circles though and can tell when I have crossed the boundries by
    reading their body language. 
    
    This note has brought something to mind. Next time you are in an
    argument, touch the other person. ie: on the arm or hand You will be 
    surprised at their reaction. This simple gesture will usually help
    to bring the argument down at least two octaves. ;-) 

     
    re: .2 --
    
    Yes, I'm sure he knows.  He's from another culture, and I made the
    mistake of assuming he was making a harrasing gesture when he was
    in fact just moving into what he considered conversational range.
    He immediately realized he had blundered and apologized -- apparently
    he has been having quite a bit of difficulty with violating the
    space of colleagues. 
    
    I don't know if he has different rules for determining this space
    or if his circles are simply smaller.  If I see him again, I may
    ask him.  (Hard to say about someone you've only just met.)
    
    --bonnie

    
    Interesting topic....we did an exercise about this very
    thing in a Communications class that I took a few years 
    ago.  We were paired up with another person and told to
    stand wherever felt comfortable to talk with that other
    person...there was more to it than that, but my memory 
    is failing me today!  Anyway, it was interesting how the
    distance varied with each pair.  It all boils down to
    what each individual feels comfortable with and also 
    (I think) just how secure and self-confident we feel 
    about ourselves.  If we sense approaching danger because
    of the closeness then probably most of us are going to 
    back away and widen that "circle of comfort".  
    
    With my SO I like to be "close" when we are having a 
    discussion...no matter what it is about.  With my kids,
    I see them backing away sometimes when we are talking 
    about a subject that they really don't want to talk 
    about...like home-work, grades, curfews, etc!  
    
    Myra

	I've only felt this a couple times in my life.  It seems to
	happen to me when a man is much more intersted in me than
	I am in him.  This happened when I first met my husband.
	Tom would always stand too close and I often got backed up
	to the office walls.  Made me very uncomfortable, but I also
	liked him a lot so I put up with it.  Now he can get much
	closer, but there's still a point where he gets too close.  This
	is when he's too close for my eyes to focus properly (about 6 inches).

	There's a man in a store I go to a lot that gets too close.  When
	I ask him for help with picking out paint or something he stands
	really close.  I notice he stands back more when I'm with Tom.
	Seems to verify my theory somehow.

	..Karen

    This reminds me of a conversation I had with a young man back
    when I was in college. I was standing at the bottom of a sloping
    ramp and while we talked he kept moving up and down the ramp.
    He would go from being almost too far away to comfortably talk
    to to almost touching me (way in side my circle of comfort!). 
    The contrast was extremely uncomfortable....kind of felt like
    being repeatedly attacked...and all it was was a friendly conversation.
    It was a very weird experience, even remembering it makes me itchy.
    
    Bonnie

    RE: .6 (sort of)
    
    The expanse/decrease of space in conversation reminded me that your
    space is also "psychic" (uhmm...wrong word, maybe) "mental", or
    (yes I *really* believe this) "intuitive". I think our feelings
    of threat or non-threat are a *combination* of the physical and
    psychic (I *like* the word...I'll use it) space.
    
    You *can* feel threatened by someone you don't know well who is
    standing far away, making perfectly friendly conversation. Or be
    perfectly comfortable with someone you don't know well who is
    standing quite close. OR...<mix up the parameters and intuitions>
    ...etc.
    
    And just to throw another monkey wrench into the works, *you* may
    have an uncomfortable feeling about someone (vague, you know? you
    can't really figure out *why* you feel that way...?) and it
    could be coming from *them*! You're just picking up on their feelings,
    (or energy, if you will). 
    
    RE: physical space
    
    It's sometimes fun to see if you can guess how close people are
    by seeing how often they "invade each other's space". There's some
    good material on this in Fast's _Body Language_.
    
    I notice the members of my massage therapy class tend to stand quite
    close together. We hug a lot, and we sit close together in lectures.
    When we have to pass each other in close quarters, we always touch
    the person we're passing. Now at *work*, things are very VERY
    different! It's really funny to see some of the gyrations people
    will go through to avoid touching someone! Crowded meeting with
    people jockeying for positions at the table are especially amusing!!
    
    (my opinion) We've really been warped into a "no-touch" society,
    and it really isn't good for us. Ashley Montagu's book _TOUCHING_
    gives excellent information on this. (Warning: it *is* somewhat
    sexist, but worth reading)
    
    --DE
    

    
    And of course this "expanse/decrease of space in conversation"
    applies to conversations between men and women, women and women,
    and ( I guess ) men and men.  Not just members of the opposite
    sex. 
    
    	

I have found also that the height differnce between the people talking makes a
difference.  The highest has more 'power'.  That may have been part of what was
bothering Bonnie. 

It's interesting to put a group of people in a room with different height
chairs...

I find myself occasionally taking a comfortable seat on the floor though
regardless of this...

Jim. 

    
    
    I tend to move around a lot when I am speaking and I would probably
    end up walking up and down a ramp if I was on one while I was in
    the mists of a conversation.  I also talk with my hands, arms, and
    whole body a lot.  (This is difficult to convey through a machine
    or two.)
    
    _peggy
    
    		(-)
    		 |
    			I body talk an elbow to the ribs to anyone
    			who gets that close without my permission or
    			I raise my arms to the Queen of Heaven - deflecting
    			any unwanted body parts in my way.
    
    
    

    Then there's always the joy of dancing with strangers.  You know,
    those who keep moving in closer.  My favorite technique is to spin
    in a circle with my elbow bent & my arm held straight out from the
    shoulder.  Kinda' hard to explain but _very_ effective.  I literally
    define a circle around my body where, if anyone 'invades', they
    get 'bumped'.  When I had long hair, the spin would wip my hair
    out & produce the same effect also.
    
    (And those strangers always thought it was an accident!!! :-)  )
    
    
    When standing & talking,  & someone moves into my space, sometime's
    I'll move into their's, and it tends to force them back.  However,
    it doesn't work if their circle is well beyond the space I'm willing
    to go !

    At IDECUS one year, the speaker was talking about this topic to
    a large group of administrative people in Digital.
    
    She spoke of a couple of people who met at an international conference.
    The gentleman walked over to a woman and introduced himself.  He
    kept trying to talk to her as he moved closer and closer.  She,
    in turn, kept backing up.  He finally asked her what was wrong.
    
    She said, "in my country, what you're doing is a "come on" and then
    he stated, "well, in my country, this is normal talking distance
    between two strangers.  We get even closer when we know each other".
    
    Cathy                                

    I attended a Women's Workshop recently, and we were asked to
    describe our 'boundaries' with masking tape.  (Remember that in a
    workshop the methods are rarely analytical, but rather more
    expressive and picture-oriented.)

    Well anyway, most people showed their boundaries as concentric
    circles around themselves, with tests and doorways into inner
    circles.  When asked about the tests for the doorways, most of us
    could not be specific about the test, and mentioned that the
    boundaries could be influenced by outside forces -- being pushed
    by someone.  Most women also had boundaries on themselves showing
    entrances to their hearts.

    Our facilitators said that the lack of clarity around boundaries
    and making them solid is a women's issue, and a culture issue.
    Women need to be comfortable enough with their boundaries to
    enforce them, and the culture has to respect the boundaries.

    The facilitators also said that the behavior of boundaries
    expressed on one's own body was typically a female trait.  Most
    men have boundaries which are very close to them for loved ones,
    but typically not touching them.  
    
    Two fascinating observations to ponder....

					-Leslie