Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    That is a bit out of context....what I meant was the passing of
    the women's colleges which I felt offered something unique...
    and which may or may not still be available...perhaps this
    could be continued in the note about women's schools.
    
    Bonnie

    Bonnie, I'm sorry I took your quote out of context. The previous
    paragraph:
    
    	"I've been a feminist since the fall of 1962 when I first
         discovered that I was free to express my self intellectually
         without any male put downs...when I entered my fall classes
         at MHC....it was a totally liberating experience!"
    
     talks about being a feminist in the 60's and I thought you were
    changing topics. I didn't relate it to the 'college' discussion.

    In any case, I've always admired people who took advantage of the
    60's atmosphere to "intellectualize" themselves. I myself was a
    good 5 years too young to know what was going on. I don't think
    that the 70's/80's were all that intellectually stimulating
    (for me anyway).
    
    I hope the 90's are a more interesting, but safe, time for my children
    to grow up in.

    Regards,
    
    Les

    by the way I would enjoy starting a conversation about young
    women - say teenage - today....one almost got started a bit 
    ago and it digressed into non sexist toys...
    
    my particular concern is my 14 year old daughter who inspite
    of being raised in 'my' family :-}  :-} is bound and determined
    to flunk math and put most other academics on the very bottom
    of her priority list...and every time I try to talk to her
    about it I lose my cool...
    
    For the record her father and I both graduated from college,
    and her two older brothers are good students....so I *know* that
    this is a form of rebellion. The problem is that her I.Q. is
    in the gifted range, and I hate to see her p*ssing her future
    away..
    
    sigh
    
    Bonnie

    
    	I am convinced that many young people are refusing to
    cooperate with the conventional means of preparing for the future,
    because they are seeing a different future.    The future that
    many kids today see, is looking real bleak.    The overwhelming
    burden of the national debt, AIDS, growing ecological problems,
    a rising tide of disasters and sensless crimes.....   Many people
    seem able to ignore all this and go on with "life as normal", 
    while others are too sensitive, and depression or apathy sets in.
    I'm not saying this is right or wrong, it just is.    
    
	All the way through school, I did poorly, "below potential",
    and it is obvious to me now why this happened.   School seemed to
    be a form of torture by boredom.   I remember feeling at the time;
    "Why should I slave away in this school/prison just so I can be
    ready later to slave away the rest of my life in some job/prison.
    If I am so unhappy *here*, there is no point in preparing to go
    *there*.    If the world is going to be destroyed by -- you name
    it; nukes, genetic tinkering, economic crash, ecological havoc --
    then why waste time preparing for a future that will never happen?"
    I felt, at that time, like a person who has been told "You have
    only a few years to live", and I felt that all other people's
    (my parents) plans for my life were wasting my few precious years.
    
    	When I wrote something like this a couple of years ago, and
    we showed these ideas to my friend's younger brothers and their
    friends, they said "RIGHT ON!", "THAT'S EXACTLY IT!", etc.

    	I read a book by Helen Caldicott a while back, where she said
    that once she got involved in the anti-nuclear movement, that this
    seemed to help her children psychologically.   Once they saw their
    own parents involved in solving the really difficult problems of
    the world, they were more able to see their own futures more
    optimistically.   It's not enough for us to prepare for our own 
    retirements when we are simultaneously preparing a world where our 
    children will have no opportunity for retirement.   (if you don't
    believe this, just project the national debt and the social security
    system into the next century.)    We can't just go on postponing 
    most of the problems to the next generation, or the next presidential 
    term, or the next advance in science...

	And if you don't have time to take on any of the world's real
    problems, you could at least offer alternative forms of learning
    that the *child* would feel is a real preparation for the future.
    I am suggesting something entirely apart from the depressing
    schoolroom world, directly related to survival skills;  a gardening
    project, karate lessons, a wilderness survival class, or an
    ecology project....       
    	
        When I was a kid, depressed about the future of the world, and
    the future of my place in it, I would probably have welcomed any 
    really significant change in the whole game.   For my own path, I 
    had to take a long time learning about psychology and "the ways of 
    the world" before I was ready to go back to school and learn the 
    math and science I had blown off earlier.
    
    	In the final analysis, you can't just *expect* your kids to
    be interested in what you or society chooses.   You have to figure
    out what these kids are really wanting to learn, and give them
    an opportunity to learn *that*.   They will then progress through
    their own interests into other fields of learning.

    	Alan.

    
    re: .3
    
    Bonnie,
    
    My sister had the same problem with her oldest boy.  There was no
    need for Brian's grades as, like your daughter, he has a "gifted"
    IQ.  
    
    In Brian's case it was not a form of rebellion, just mere boredom.
    His classes were too easy for him; thus, no challenge to stimulate
    that "gifted" IQ.  I suspect this is probably what is happening
    with your daughter.
    
    My suggestions:
    
    First, talk to her about her classes.  Find out if she's just not
    getting the challenge she needs out of her classes.  If she's bored
    to death, she isn't going to want to bother.
    
    Then, talk to her Guidance Counsellor.  There may be something the
    Guidance Counsellor can offer.
    
    Good Luck.  I hope you find a solution.

    bonnie,
    
    i can understand a small part of the agony you must be going through
    while watching your daughter not use her brains at school. I'd probably
    be disappointed and frustrated, too. Also, you are her mother, and have
    a more general view of what the future may be like. But I hope you can
    look at it from a daughter's point of view for a moment. 
    
    I remember when I came home from school with one B+ in eighth grade and
    my mother said bitterly "How are you ever going to get into a good
    college with those kinds of grades?" I STILL resent that comment. I
    wish she had worked more on our relationship than on whether I'd get
    into a good college. 
    
    Actually, I did get into a good college. I was so burned out by then (i
    was studying too hard to have a good solid senior slump) that I took an
    extended leave of absence (again, it broke her heart -- she tried
    _every_ conceivable way to manipulate me into going back -- clearly
    another emotional blow). When I found a reason to be in school, I went
    back (and graduated summa cum laude). But I STILL refuse to discuss
    this subject with my mother (she knows I took classes and then stopped,
    but doesn't know for sure that I graduated.) 

    Yes, it's hard to stand by and watch your daughter hurt her future
    chances. On the other hand, she has to make the choice to study hard
    (and she needs a reason to do it). This is her life. By doing anything
    more than expressing your concerns, you are probably just hurting your
    relationship with her (and not getting her to do better in school).
    Also, if she decides not to apply herself to school right now, she
    hasn't ruined her chances for all time, though when she decides
    to apply herself, she WILL have to work harder. on the other hand,
    she'll have greater motivation to do so.

    
    offered with love
    liz

    For some kids who have high IQs and poor performance it is sometimes
    a matter of learning disabilities.
    
    I have trouble memorizing and trouble with auditory perception as
    a mode of learning.  I kept telling my teachers and guidance counselors
    that I did really well in classes where we learned things by seeing
    and doing, and very poorly in classes where we were lectured at
    and tested for rote memorization.  
    
    They kept telling me those were just excuses...so I was a "late
    bloomer" and did much better in college where I could pick and choose
    my courses carefully.
    
    Holly
    

Two more reasons and one reflection ...

    First three years of high school, I coveted good grades but had no 
idea how to study and no self-discipline -- delayed gratification was
not in my universe.  

    Also, those first three years, I devoted myself to socializing -- 
which was tremendously beneficial 'cause as a 13 year old, I was painfully
shy and overcoming that has been a lifetime blessing.  I was already 
literate, what I needed was friends and people.

    My reflection: Dr. Kochendorfer, our chem teacher, would orate at least
once a week: "People! People! It's alright if you flunk chemistry, if you
quit school.  But be great at something! Anything! But be great! If you
love cartoons, then learn everything about them.  If you love Elvis, learn
the songs and play them ..."  (Proviso East, 1959 - 1963)

    A kid, say, who loves rock 'n roll and knows about it has her hands 
in something.  The one in danger is she who finds everything ... oh (sigh) 
I guess that's OK (sigh) ... yawn ... there's never nothin ta do ...

    
    
    Bonnie,
    
    You met Greta, she has the same type of problem as your daughter
    and has had it for 3 years.  All we can do is wait it out, give
    support when needed, and try really hard to not push. (The we is
    myself, Bonnie and anyone else "blessed" with a daughter who is
    trying to find herself.)
    
    _peggy
    
    		(-)
    		 |	The Goddess is in Greta and she knows it.
    
    

    Interestingly enough...I logged on hours ago to copy this
    conversation for my Judy...she for the first time! admitted
    that she found school totally boreing...which we had suspected
    for a long time...but felt it was hopeless to do anything about
    it. It turns out that she *is* interested in private schools.
    the problem is of course the $$$$ with one kid already in college.
    
    so I will let her read the replies and the mail I have gotten
    and maybe she will give me an answer to type in...
    
    and I would not object to anyone who wanted to write to her
    by U.S. mail ....(with in reason :-) )
    
    so anyone who has ideas as to how to make school less boreing
    
    go at it!
    
    and thank you to everyone who answered this one

    	RE: 634.3
    
    	Bonnie,
    
    	My wife and I have two daughters. Neither is gifted
    	(except to have a father like me [laugh all you want]), so
    	grades are average. We've tried everything to encourage them
    	to use the opportunities before them.
    
    	A friend mentioned that she thought Heidi (age 14) was boy
    	crazy. I mentioned somewhere some time ago that because of
    	her last grade card last year, we made Heidi attend summer
    	school.
    
    	Now, it looks like we'll have to put our foot down with
    	Heather (age 11). She's into basketball, color guard, etc.,
    	and will probably do quite badly in one or two classes.
    	She'll throw a fit, and we'll all be upset, but what are
    	we supposed to do when school appears (to them) to be
    	nothing more than a daily nuisance?
    
    	Scott (ain't parenting great?)
    
    	

    I was one of the lucky ones--I wasn't disillusioned about high school
    until 30 days after graduation.  Then, suddenly it struck me--what
    an awful waste of time and energy!  Oh, well, at least I got into
    a decent college.
    
    Well, as to things to do to revive flagging interest.  In California,
    there was this way high school students could take classes at the
    junior college.  Our junior college was on the average less challenging
    than the high school, but the English department had a gem or two.
    I took some English classes at night--the best was an American
    literature one, I think because the teacher was enthusiastic and
    excited (and strange), and also because we had a wide age range,
    not just bored 20-year-olds who were doing what they'd been doing
    since 9th grade (being bored).
    
    Some of the other things I did you had to be either be really good
    at something (like math team--hey, we had intramural meets, which
    meant trips, which meant eating out--a big deal to me then) or
    out-of-your-mind (like marching band, or maybe that only took
    conformance and being impervious to temperature extremes).
    
    The most rewarding experiences were making friends with teachers.
    This had an interesting side affect that you could spend one period
    a day as a student assistant, if schedules worked out and they needed
    a grader or a lab assistant.  Or sometimes just time after school
    fiddling around with extra projects.
    You didn't have to be the best student, either.  And through the
    extra time, they shared their enthusiasm with you.  I like to think
    they're still teachers like Ed White around, even if he isn't.
    (But he was the best, and he's painfully missed.)
    
    Drama?  Music?  Photography?  Writing?  Sometimes an artistic interest
    will give one the gumption to do good enough at the boring stuff
    to get into college.  Sports?  Even future PE teachers need to go
    to college.  Would drawing spirography pictures on a home computer
    maybe help a flagging algebra interest?  I have some gorgeous computer
    graphics pictures littered around my office, and more and more that field's
    requiring ... >gasp<  CALCULUS.  (Okay, so mostly just linear algebra.)
                                               
    _Life_ is nothing more of a daily nuisance, if you don't realize that
    it's you who's got to make it interesting.  School doesn't teach
    this so well.  You've got to share your enthusiasm, the younger
    they are the better, I imagine.  I can remember trips to the library
    with my mother and my father showing me lizard-catching `back forever.
    Sometimes we all lose track of our resources, though, and maybe
    they just need helpful reminding.

RE: .12

"so anyone who has ideas as to how to make school less boring"

I worked most of the time through college...  A lot of people had the attitude
that they had to beat their brains in with the books... to get the good
grades... to get the good jobs...  to get all the good toys...

Blech, they made their lives miserable for some hypothetical future reward.

Myself, I worked some, went to school part time, had some fun...  In general
lived my life *now* while I was in college.  I enjoyed college because I
*lived* during college.

Jim. 

    That is, I am sorry, not a lot of help in dealing with a 14 year
    old who has flunked math two marking periods in a row...

    Oh dear.  Oh dear.  I'm not much help, I can't remember not liking
    math very well.
    
    But, if I remember _A_Wrinkle_In_Time, Meg (?) doesn't like school
    math, but she's pretty good at more interesting math.  Long division
    will make anyone's eyes glaze over, but algebra or geometry...and
    then there's c--oh, never mind me.
    
    Tutoring?  I tutored when I was in high school.  Sometimes extra
    attention really helped for my algebra students.  The fees were
    small, around $5 a session once a week (for one friend, it was 
    rides to school).  The math teachers introduced prospective tutors
    and pupils to each other.  (I was approached by a teacher to be
    a tutor; I don't know how the pupils found out.)  In college, the
    department sponsored some tutors.  It's not private school, but
    it is special attention from somebody new.  Maybe you've tried
    a tutor, maybe you need to try a different tutor.

    	  You can't set a kid's priorities for them.  No matter if
    	you say "If you don't get good grades, you won't get into
    	a good school.  If you don't get into a good school, you won't
    	get a good job."  That may not mean very much to her at this
    	point.  And maybe you can bribe or force her to study more and
    	do better.  But as soon as she is in college, it is going to
    	be up to her how much she studies, and so *she* will have to
    	have the commitment.
    	  I really believe in starting over.  Even if a kid get's so-so
    	grades.  Let them work at McDonald's for a while.  If they are
    	happy, so be it.  If they want something more they will take
    	the initiative to go to community college.  If they prove
    	themselves there, they can transfer the credits to a better
    	school.  If they want even more, there is always graduate
    	school.  Just because a person is smart doesn't mean they will
    	like academics.  And there is no such thing as "screwing up
    	your future" in my opinion.  It may take her longer to get to 
    	where she wants to be, but when she gets there she will be a 
    	more together person, and will get more out of it.
    	  Linda

    re .15-.18
    
    I was waiting for someone to say this kind of thing. I'd go further.
    While you may want to keep pushing (and at 14, it's probably still
    a good idea) it is just possible that your daughter does not have
    what it takes to be a professional person (which is obviously what
    you are looking for, right?). The most brilliant person i know,
    bar none, failed out of two colleges, and is slowly working his
    way up in Bell labs as a tech. A horrible waste, I always think.
    But that's *me*. *He* seems to be happy now; and wow did he hate
    school -- I could tell you such stories ;-) So my advice (if you
    can call it that) is to keep pushing until you see your daughter
    is formed in her life, but to never forget that if she doesn't do
    things your way, up to and including her whole life, she's still
    worthwhile as a human being. Don't pin your hopes to eventually
    turning her around.
    
    Tough advice -- when I become a parent, I will be hard pressed to
    take it. But it's offered with caring.
    
    dov

    re: < Note 634.3 by YAZOO::B_REINKE "where the sidewalk ends" >

<<        my particular concern is my 14 year old daughter who inspite
<<    of being raised in 'my' family :-}  :-} is bound and determined
<<    to flunk math and put most other academics on the very bottom
<<    of her priority list...and every time I try to talk to her
<<    about it I lose my cool...
<<                                           ....so I *know* that
<<    this is a form of rebellion. The problem is that her I.Q. is
<<    in the gifted range, and I hate to see her p*ssing her future
<<    away..
    
<<    sigh

    
    May I suggest an approach that may help?
    
    Buy a book called "Mindstorms" by Samuel Papert. He was/is part of the
    Artificial Intelligence Lab at MIT specializing in child/special
    education. His book is about their use of the computer language "LOGO"
    and how it is incredibly successful in motivating and interesting kids
    in learning mathematical type skills.
    
    Even if you never buy LOGO the concepts in the book are wonderful.
    My children are still too young to actually use the computer program
    but I have devised some manual games (which they love) based on ideas
    from the book.
    
    Good luck,
    
    /Les