Conference turris::womannotes-v1

RE: .0

Do you feel like you could not be "best friends" with the opposite sex? Any
guesses why?

I'll hazard a guess that one tends to stop working on long term relationships
when they become 'good enough', especially spouses/*.  It's awfull hard for
me to cram all your expectations and needs onto one person...

Jim. 

    Confession time. I'm generally a solitary individual, introspective,
    and was definitely a tomboy while growing up. I had no interest
    in the kitchen coffee-klatches or any of the other "women" things
    that my mother did.
    
    HOWEVER - as the years have passed, I've noticed a growing yearning
    (probably nostalgic) for that kind of neighborhood friendship. It's
    worst in the spring and summer; such a pity not to be able to hang
    around the house when the sun's coming in the window and the birds
    are frolicking. But even if I did stay home, there wouldn't be too
    many neighbors doing the same.
    
    Even if there were, I have my doubts about the depth of "next-door"
    friendships as opposed to friendships between people with more common
    interests. These days, it seems that most people's "neighborhoods"
    are the workplace rather than the home; the next-cubicle-neighbor
    is more likely to be a friend than the next-door-neighbor. (This
    is probably industry-dependent, though, and shouldn't get too much
    weight.)

    I'm getting off track here; the original question was about female
    bonding, not just friendly neighbors. I do have women friends whom
    I consider close; some of these I've known since college. And even
    if we don't get in touch more than a couple of times a year, we
    have a common base that lets us trust each other; when we *do* get
    together, the years seem to fall away.

    I think I rely on them being there, but I don't actually contact
    them very often. Just the knowledge that I could if I needed to
    is usually enough for me.

    I haven't had many close male friends, although I've found more
    since working at DEC; common interests and a neutral (i.e. non-dating)
    environment made it easier for me to talk to them. Still, my closest
    friends are women; this may be chance, or a holdover from the days
    when one wouldn't *dream* of talking about intimate matters such
    as S*X with a member of the opposite one.
    
    Do I think there's a qualitative difference between friendships between
    women and friendships between men? That I don't know. Traditionally,
    yes. The "old wives" gathered in the kitchen are symbolic of earthy
    wisdom and the power of creation. "The boys" hanging around in the pool
    hall symbolize the fiery strength of youth, the ambition to go out and
    fight just for the fun of it. As far as I know, there is no equivalent
    image of power for young women; and that's a pity. The only archetype I
    recall for that group is of the "innocent maids," waiting for the young
    men to come along and claim them. Sadly, even though I never chose
    that pattern consciously, it is so ingrained in fiction and society
    that it's very difficult to shake.
    
    I wish I'd learned to go out and fight...
    
    -b

    Yes, that kind of bonding does still happen.
    It takes time, probably years, trust, sharing, talking, 
    many of the same things that it takes to develop a friendship with anyone.
    But there is the added dimension of you both being women, and sometimes
    there is an honesty and an understanding between two people, for lack of
    a better phrase, 'intellectual honesty'. When you say something, you know

    that it will be -understood-, not necessarily agreed with, but
    understood and -accepted- as worthwhile, and with that there is the
    willingness and the expectation that with this person you will both
    be who you are, and expect the best in the other, bring out the best
    in the other. Perhaps this happens more with same sex friendships 
    than not, I don't know.
    Could *I* live without it?   I suppose I can, it diminishes my life
    greatly, to have lost one friend like that.  It is unbearably sad for 
    me to think that I would lose another one. 

    Would it seriously impact my life if I *didn't* have it? 
    Immeasurably.
    
    An illustration.
    A young woman has cancer, the prognosis is uncertain.
    Faced with this uncertainty, she prepares for the worst by writing a
    request concerning the funeral services, and other details that she
    felt needed to be set straight.  She put them in an envelope and told a
    very dear friend where it was 'just in case'. She died a few weeks
    later. One of her requests was that only the family and a couple
    of very close friends be allowed to view her at the funeral home. 
    Her friend, despite her own grief,  went to the funeral home
    and fixed the young woman's hair and did her makeup for her. 
    She didn't want her to look ugly the last time her family saw her.
    
    This act of kindness touched me very deeply, and made me realize how
    much stronger they each were because of the other,
    and perhaps for the other.  

    Thank you for letting me share this with you,

    Angela

    The following entry is from a member of our community who wishes
    to remain anonymous at this time.
    
    						=maggie
    
    ================================================================
    
    re .3 Angela
    
    Wonderful note.
    
    Yes female bonding does happen and it is so very different from
    female/male bonding (in my experience).  And it has very little
    to do with sexual attraction (ie you can have the special female
    bond despite severe lust for the woman -- or even a full-blown affair
    with her).
    
    A Bisexual Woman

    Well, if you can't find a myth to suit you, make one up!  I certainly
    have some memories of young women getting together that are images
    of the fiery energy of youth.  Some sororities and a lot of rugby
    teams are rowdy and energetic.  My dearest fraternity ties are to
    women (and gay men), and I'll trust them with my hearts's pains
    and hopes more than I will men friends from the same frat I shared
    houses with for years.  My luck may've been bad, but I repeatedly
    had confidences turned into by vicious gossip and especially dominance tags
    by those straight men.  (And it's real hard to have a secure bond
    if you know something you say is going to be used against you.)
    This isn't by any means a condemnation--it's
    just an observation about how things are right now; because like
    anyone else, I know a bunch of great straight guys--a lot of 'em
    are married to my best friends!
    
    I may not get to see them every morning, but my closest women
    friends're such a relief and joy to visit.  
    There aren't a lot of coworkers I'd cry to about
    a dissolving relationship, or bubble about books, despite the fact
    that I see some of them far too often :-) .  Because it's a
    relationship based upon employment, not trust.

    I've been reading these notes with great interest and especially
    this particular note.
    
    I have been working full time for 9 1/2 years at DEC. Prior to that
    I was a full time "housewife". Three kids at home, coffee klatches,
    soaps, etc.   I enjoy those wonderful years with my kids and close
    friends.  There were about 4 of us who got together regularly (not
    spur of the moment thing). We all have a speciall bonding to each
    other because we had alot in common, we shared dreams, hopes, problems,
    etc. 
    
     When I began working full time, my youngest child was 8 years old
    and the oldest was 15.   At first I missed the get togethers but
    as time went by I made new friends at DEC.  I have developed a close
    relationship with 2 other women (10 - 15 years older than me). We
    share so many things together and keep in touch every week, wether
    it's a phone call or just shopping. I have one other very close
    friend which started when she was a tenant in the apartment building
    I we owned. We had young children and they grew up and we both work
    fulltime and have even more in common than ever. 
    
    My husband on the other hand, doesn't have any men friends call
    him to go hunting or just chat (do men do that??) He bowls a couple
    of nights on leagues but that is the only time he's with them. 
    But he's also the type not to open up and tell anything personal
    so I guess he's not a good example of a male without close friends.
    
    I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's possible to make a strong
    bonding friendship with another woman if you open up and share and
    ask for advice etc. My three friends and I do just that. We *trust*
    each other immensley. It's such a great feeling to be able to call
    one of them and discuss a problem
    
    Barbara
    .

    I too am in a technical field,  I work mostly with men, and in school
    I was one of 3 women in my class.  However, I have ties with some
    women that are closer than anything I've ever felt with a man....
    make that closer in a different way...... One friend dates from
    highschool days,  there was a period of 4-5 years where we spoke only
    on the phone every 6 months or so,  yet I knew that if I had a problem,
    she was there for me to talk to.  One friend was one of the other
    2 women in my class at college (yes, 3 women out of 75).  The shared
    experiences we had brought us together closer than we otherwise
    might have grown.  
    
    The others?  They come from work.  I met them either on the job,
    or in a women's group at HLO.  There is a difference with a female
    friend.  She tends to understand what you are trying to say without
    worrying over every nit.  The basic acceptance of self, even if
    the idea is not agreed with allows a more free flowing exchange
    of ideas, and problems.
    
    I also have some close male friends.  One of whom knows more about
    me in a particular area than anyone else.  And yet there is a added
    level to our communication,  more has to be explained, and less
    is imediately accepted and understood than when I am dealing with
    other women.
    
    Would I trade any of them?  Heck no,  I need them all to make my
    life balanced.  (I agree with a previous note that said one person
    cannot provide everything).  Female bonding does happen today. 
    It just is less likely to happen over coffee & kid-watching.  But
    it *IS* a special part of being a woman, and something that has
    added immeasurably to my life.
                                                         
    
    And yes, I do have a SO,  and he and I are close in a way that is
    different from any other relationship I have.  But I learned (after
    a couple of painfull years) that he could not provide everything
    I need,  that I *needed* my women friends also.
    
    This is my experience,  and I hope that every other woman has a
    chance to share that bonding with other women.
    
    Mary
    
    PS. I don't restrict that hope for a strong, supported relationship
    to women alone; I've just had no experience of such being shared
    between men.  So I rephrase it, Let everyone share in a bonding.
                                 
    

    Not to be repetitive, but I too have bonds. My life would be more
    incomplete without them than without an SO. (Currently missing.)
    And I've noticed that my bonds are all with Techies like myself,
    and that several of us are not even aware that we are bonding.
    Sometimes it seems that "women" are alien... because we spend so
    much time dealing with men. But I am constantly encouraging my friends
    to bond, and to acknowledge the need for female friendships, as
    my mother taught me. You don't need many, and you don't need to
    change your personality. In some cases, though I have discovered
    my "womanhood" through my friends, just in terms of seeing that
    I'm freer in their company... and I don't have to be "macho" or
    aggressive or competitive, unless its my nature. I don't mean to
    ramble, but this touched such a harmonious spot with me, that I
    wanted to respond. And to encourage the original noter... use your
    lunch breaks, call up an acquaintance/friend, spend a little time
    re-establishing a few connections wherever you "grew" them. I am
    from a family of women and feel spoiled; we have ALWAYS had bonding.
    But we're all technical. Technical women are still women. Even though
    some of us forget... 

    
    This is too good a note to pass by.
    
    In answer to .0 general question: Yes female bonding does still
    happen these days.
    
    More to the point of her note tho:  How does one go about bonding
    with a female friend?  I can only relate my own experiences but
    I hope they lend some sort of support to you.
    
    I have three very close female friends.  Each of them formed a bond
    with me under distinctly different circumstances.  My very first
    close female friend I met in sunday school in 4th grade.  To this
    very day we remain as close as ever.  We grew up together and lived
    close by to each other untill high school when she moved away to
    New York with her family.  Now I see her a few times a year and
    it's as tho no time has passed.  We spend several hours just catching
    up on general news then we talk about problems in our lives, men
    and family.  Now, if I think about how our bond was formed and why
    we are as close as we are I think of the fact that we "grew up"
    together.  We spent alot of time giggling over boy in 6th grade,
    Talked and shared feelings and experiences through 7th and 8th,
    then when she moved things just continued on as before.  We spend
    alot of time on the phone to each other now especially when something
    really bad happens to one or the other.  She is my "Call me any
    time day or night friend."
    
    My second closest friend I met in High School.  We rode the same
    bus [MBTA] to and from our Catholic high school every day.  One
    day we kinda got thown together when the girls we "normally" hung
    around with decided to be friends with each other and not us.  Funny
    thing is, K and I hated each other at first.  She thought I was
    stuck up and I thought the same of her.  Over time tho we became
    better friends.  We spent nearly all our free time together untill
    I went away to college [she was a year behind me].  Something about
    my being away at school caused some distance between us especially
    when my roommate at school [my third closest friend] began to take
    her place.  We were a little to far away to "hang around" with
    eachother and there was alway some unidentifiable wall between me
    and K.  When I left school I had a long blood and guts talk with
    her and slowly the wall between us came down.  All the silly secrets
    and petty jelousies we had were all out in the open and from then
    on we made a pact to be completely open with eachother.  It took
    7 years to get close to her but I finally did. 
    
    My college roommate was easy to bond to.  She is the most open and
    loving person I know!  Her emotions were always written on her face
    like a book to be read.  I knew when she was hurt, upset, angry
    and as she got to know me better she saw the same things in me.
    That happens when you live with someone for so long.  If I had stayed
    in school we would STILL be roommates [till this June anyway]. We
    even discussed getting an apartment together when she graduates.
    
    In summary I guess it went like this:  One saw the trials of growing
    up with me, one went through the hardships of high school and family
    troubles with me [as well as a couple of real winner type boy friends],
    and the last had the unique opertunity of seeing how difficult it
    is to live with me.  Just the effort of getting to know her and
    all the time we couldn't AVOID spending with each other was enough
    to make us very close.  I guess our personalities really went together
    well too.
    
    I don't know if this helps answer your questions or not but I can
    tell you, I wouldn't give up a single one of my girlfriends.  I
    need them all and I believe they need me as well.
    
    As for male friends...I have one male friend that I can say is at
    least as close as my girlfriends.  But he is a very unique fellow.
    So it IS possible to bond with a male friend like a female friend.
    Most guys aren't easy to get close to tho.  My boyfriend was a semi
    tuff nut to crack but we are very close as well [we have a couple
    secrets tho and I don't think we'll ever tell each other EVERYTHING,
    a little mystery is nice.  :->]
    
    Is this long enough?  Eish!
    
    Thanks for reading.
    
    Becky