Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Your husband is used to you being a certain way, period.  It will
    take nothing short of hitting him over the head with a ton of bricks
    to make him see differently, and you're not going to do it by just
    *telling* him about it.
    
    It's time for action.
    
    Not drastic action, just something different.
    
    It seems to me that your life has centered around him all your married
    life, and now that you have a child, it centers around her.  Time
    to shift gears!  It's time for you to think about yourself!
    
    You didn't mention your interests, but there must be *something*
    extracurricular that you'd like to do - take a class at the local
    college, take a dance class, take up a sport, join a club, work
    with stained glass, write a book, get a new hairstyle, learn how
    to sign, get involved in a community/charity organization, play
    the piano - whatever!
    
    Don't wait for *him* to change.  And it might even help to see a
    therapist to help vent your frustrations.
    
    You've got the power, you can use it.  I'm pulling for you!
    
    Carol
    

    
    Helena,
    
    I want to add to my last note that I'm not saying that your husband
    won't change his attitude.  Given time, he will (ideally).  Just
    don't sit around *waiting* for it to happen.  I think that once
    he sees that you're serious about being taken seriously, he'll come
    around.
    
    Please stay in touch.
    
    Carol
    
    :-)
    

0.
>   I have been open ... All this has done is to push me futher 
>   away with feelings that I should have kept my mouth shut. 

I certainly sympathize with your current situation.  Looking back on my
life, I know that "keeping my mouth shut" about important things never
helped. It bought peace in the afternoon, but piled up anger. 

A few months ago I heard a man ask a radio show councelor how to "get his
wife back home." She had moved out and wanted a divorce because, as he put
it, "She's just going through one of those things I guess women sometimes
go through."  I wondered whether she had expressed herself so kindly that
the oaf didn't pick up her message or whether he was just obtuse. 

You could toss back what he tosses at you. At the next contemptuous remark,
for instance, volunteer to quit your job and stay home where your lack of
intelligence won't endanger anyone.  Yes, a gross statement but it will
catch his attention.  (One of my sisters asked her husband for a divorce
because he criticised everything she did and made a sarcastic remark in
reponse to every complement anyone gave her. He was astounded; it was an
unconscious habit and attitude.)

Grim observation: A friend, married ten years, was considering whether to
start marriage counceling or a divorce. Someone said, if you had happy 
years, then try counceling, but if the marriage has never been good, it 
won't get good.  It feels like a true observation.  I know my long term 
sweeties and I parted for reasons that were present by month three.

Last observation: The biggest reason for keeping my mouth shut was absolute 
dread that the other person would get mad, and my god, SCREAM!  Various 
ways to overcome the dread. 

    Resolve that the next time someone screams at you, you will scream
    back.  (My first real scream-back is one of my happiest memories. Wow!
    Were they surprised!)  Slamming doors after them also feels good.

    Scream sometime when you are alone. Practice never hurts.

    Ignore them in your heart and your blood pressure.  If the other 
    person is foaming at the mouth or being sarcastic, respond in a normal
    tone and go ahead and do what you want to do or say. Try to see them
    as some stranger on the sidewalk, acting like a two year old. Refuse
    to get caught up in their anger.                         Meigs

Your husband sounds a lot like my Dad, and the pattern was exactly the same,
the jumping from one job to the other, then finally becoming self-employed, 
the financial problems, the complete lack of involvement on his side in 
either his wife or his children. My Mom divorced after more than 20 years of
marriage, and I think she was right. Both my brother and myself agreed with 
her decision, and were even relieved by it: we had no money and no father, but
at least we knew why ...

As a child, I swore I would never, ever marry a man who was self-employed, 
as the years of financial insecurity had taken a heavy toll on my childhood 
(having people come and take away all the furniture except the matresses does
not help to give you extra confidence).

Well. Guess what? My husband is self-employed, and will probably always be!
However he was jobless when we met, so being self-employed is a big step
forward. We have taken the precaution of having the car and every bit of 
furniture in my name so if he goes bankrupt we can at least observe a
semblance of normalcy. He works very hard, but his job will never get him a
lot of money. Additionnally, he has no head for figures, is not forceful 
about getting his customers to pay him, resents my questions about where 
the money has gone to and forgets to take care of his children unless I tell 
him to. He leaves early in the morning and comes back late in the evening. 

However, he is basically a very kind and humourous person and if I look
into myself, I know that's what attracted me to him in the first place: his
kindness, his sense of humour, his courtesy to everybody, his readiness to
help, and many other qualities.

So, my mother divorced and she was right;
    my husband first wife divorced him and she was right;
    however if I divorced, I would probably be dead wrong, because we 
    love and like each other a lot, both despite and because of our faults.
    The qualities for which I first loved him are still there, and they
    are still essentially what I would look for in a man.  

Ask yourself: 	- is he able and willing to change?
		- if not, am I able and willing to accept him as he is?
		- the qualities I loved him for, are they still there?
		- are those qualities the ones I would put forward now,
		  if I were looking for a partner?
		- do I want to grow old with this person, will we be
		  able to share the future together?

Neither my mom and dad or my husband and his ex-wife were ever able to TALK 
together. Any attempt at talking would degenerate immediately in violent 
disagreement. TALK if you can, as much as you can.

You may be wondering about your child, what would be best for her. Children 
are very sensitive to atmosphere and whatever unhappiness you are going 
through now, she probably feels it. Whatever decision you take, if it's the
right one for you, she will also feel it. When my husband divorced, his 
daughter was 1 year old. She is now a happy 14 years old and she feels her
parents were right to divorce, as they still bicker about anything on earth
every time they meet. She says herself she had "a lucky escape" !

I wish the network could convey how much I feel for you and hope for the
best, whatever the best is for you. 

Joana 

    Thanks, to all that responded. There are days when I tell myself
    that I just can not stand the thought of going home. Joana, thanks
    for the suggestion of asking myself questions. I have already asked
    those plus numerous others. I have found that the answers have changed
    since deciding to marry this person. I have realized that if I were
    to meet him today there is very little about him that I find
    attractive, but there must have been something in the begining.
    I certainly do not want to look back in 10yrs and regret staying
    in the relationship or leaving it. But I also have decided that
    I will stop being two people. I find that I happen to like myself,
    and therefor I will be me, both at home and at work and hope that
    "hubbie" can accept this and we can go forward together. If not
    I am confident that I can still have a productive & satifying life
    without him.
    
    H
     

    I ended my marriage ten years ago because when we started we were
    peers, but after I had done a certain amount of growing I saw that
    our paths were never going to converge because he was not growing
    or working on himself.
    
    It took me 4-5 years to stop hoping, but I've never regretted my
    decision.
    
    Good luck, Helena.
    
    Holly

	Helena;
	If you wouldn't mind hearing some different advice for a male
mostly_read_only noter, would like to offer a suggestion. Not that the
others given here are not good ones.
	In your note you said that your husband was all tied up in a
new construction business. I am sure he has a lot on his mind. You also
said that you had been a very supportive non-questioning wife and now
you feel you need a more 50-50 type relationship. You stated that talking
with your husband wasn't working out. As I understand it he has nothing but
this new business on his mind and can not think about any thing else. I
also feel he thinks you know nothing about the construction industry so that
any thing you say about that is considered WRONG (weather it really is or
not doesn't matter HE feels it is wrong). Have I got the situation fairly
right?
	How about trying this. Try learning something about "his" (as I under
stand it you provided a large part of the financing but to him it is "his)
business. First read a little bit about it so you know some of the terminology
and construction methods. Then ask if your husband if he would show you his 
work. If he agrees, act interested and ask intelligent questions (that is what
the reading was for to help you be able to ask intelligent questions). Don't
criticize or try to change any thing yet just learn as much as you can with-
out getting in the way. If you see something that you like about what he is
doing say so.
	Hopefully after he sees that you have learned a bit about his work
and care about it he will feel better talking to you about his problems,
successes and failures. If you show some understanding and help him get
his problems off of his mind he will be able to start listening to you
and your problems, hopes and dreams.
	It will take some time and a lot of effort but after 9 years don't
you think it would be worth a try. Think about it. Good luck in what ever
you do.
Jeff Filer

    Helena, someone else mentioned this already, but I'll repeat it.
     Work on yourself, get yourself some good projects going that make
    "you" feel good and happy.  The butterfly scenario can work here
    for you.  If you're busy and prospering, he'll notice.  If he doesn't
    notice or he notices and doesn't care, then you have two choices:
    1) stay in a marriage that is two people living under the same roof
    (kids are there too)
    or 
    2) pack up the kids, stay with a friend, see a lawyer and get
    on with your life.
    
    Cathy       

    Re: .8
    
    I consider your advice a bit drastic and out of proportion
    to the situation.  Furthermore, I see that you automatically
    assume that the mother should steal the child from the father.
    I am very sad to see this archaic and cruel notion persist.
    
    				Steve

    But Steve, this will only occur if the father has no time for
    anything except his work.  If that situation obtains, then he
    has no time for his child.  If he has no time for his child,
    but the child's mother does, should she not have the child?
    
    						Ann B.

    I was all set to throw him out the door too;  it seems really grim
    to contemplate living with someone who doesn't respect you.  But
    now it's occurred to me:  Is his business in trouble?  Is he brushing
    off your attempts to talk about it because he's afraid the whole
    thing is about to go down the tubes and he's caught in that macho
    self-image number where he thinks revealing a problem is a sign
    of weakness?
    

    Sorry Steve, but your note hit a sour spot with me.  I have always
    enjoyed reading your notes, they have always made me feel good about
    fathers playing an active role in their son/daughter's development.
    But, Ann is right: if he doesn't have any time for his wife, does
    he have any time for his child.  I will "assume" that the guy spends
    time with his wife by either sleeping next to her or eating a meal
    with her, it doesn't necessarily mean that there is a bonding
    relationship going on.  I will assume that he is NOT sleeping next
    to his child, in order to play, relate, have "quality time", what
    have you.
    
    The point I am making is that sometimes you have to do for yourself.
    If you've tried everything you possibly can to "change" the situation
    and you cannot "change" anything anymore, you need to "change" yourself
    and find your niche in life.
    
    And if it means fighting for custody, then you do it.
    
    I am not married, I cannot even come close to giving advice on
    relationships because I have more growing in that area: BUT I CERTAINLY
    KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO TAKE CRAP FOR TOO LONG AND I "DON'T" "HAVE
    TO" DO ANYTHING IF "I" DON'T WANT TO.
    
    Enough said.  I'm sorry Helena that it sounds like I'm shouting.
    I need you to know that there are people that have concern for you
    and for your child.  But, ultimately, the decision has to come from
    you, what you believe in, what's in your heart, and nothing I can
    say will change that.  It might just give you something to think
    about.
    
    Cathy 

RE: .7  Learn His work

Umm... not trying to be negative, but be very carefull how you go about this...
If you don't approach it the right way, his attitude could end up being, 'you
don't know nuttin, why are you horning in on my business?'.

If I had a job where I spent a great deal of time justifying my job, I wouldn't
appreciate having to deal with more questions from an SO. 

I think that what you have to do is develop an area of expertise that he can
accept that you are 'the expert' in, and work to expand that area in ways that
are important/valuable/* to him.

I am hoping that people here won't unnecessarily jump on your husband's case...
You've been "wifey" for N years, it might take a looong time for your husband to
come around, years...  He probably still thinks thinks are hunky-dory... You
probably would have had an easily time changing at the beginning of your
relationship.  The loong years *you* stayed "wifey" have made change
difficult... 

RE: .8

"2) pack up the kids, stay with a friend, see a lawyer and get on with your
life."

I resent the assumption that the children should be taken away from their
father. 

RE: .10

Even if NOW the father is spending all his time working, he DESERVES the chance
to spend as much time as he (and kids) choose to have together at any time in
the future.  He DESERVES the chance to take care of the children as much as
their mother took care of them for N years, even if he wishes to have custody of
them, and let the mother work and support them!

PLEASE .0 DON'T TAKE THE CHILDREN!

RE: .12

"And if it means fighting for custody, then you do it."

*IF* the father shows *ANY* interest in having the children any amount of time,
encourage it.  If you have to fight for custody, then apparently there is *SOME*
indication that he wants to be involved with his children.  Do as much as you
can to channel that into a way that will help his relationship with the children
to grow.

I hate to say it, but it might be necessary to be tough with him at first, and
point out to him the consequences if he does not *parent* his children. 

"BUT I CERTAINLY KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO TAKE CRAP FOR TOO LONG AND I "DON'T"
"HAVE TO" DO ANYTHING IF "I" DON'T WANT TO."

"I need you to know that there are people that have concern for you and for your
child."

That does not sound like concern for the children.

If you do file for custody, you will assuredly get it, whether their father
wants it or not.  This is your golden opportunity to *SCREW* a man over good,
please don't do it! 

Jim Baranski
a father that wanted his children.

    Most of the replies sound like you have already lost it.
    
    What you and your SO need is to TALK over your feelings.  Let him
    know that you are not the girl he married.  You have grown up. You
    can put the roof over the family.
    
    But you need to do the talking with one that is trained to help
    people in your situation.  You can get this help through your 
    Church,  or out of the phone book, or from others that have gotten
    help before to refer you to a good consler(sp).
    
    Only if your SO does not what to TALK and work on the problems would
    I throw away 9 years of a marrage and split up the family.
    
    So both of you need to get help to keep it to gether.
    
    Good luck
    
    jed
    

    I think it might be a good idea to take the issue of what to do with
    the kid(s) back to the custody note.  Otherwise, it will make a
    brouhaha here which will detract significantly from the usefullness
    of this topic to the basenote author.
    
    Lee

    Re: learning about his business
    
    I feel very ambivalent about that ... I know basically everything
    about my husband's job, as I double (or is it treble?) as his secretary
    and accountant - talk about cutting the overhead ... I also frequently
    have to answer customer queries on the phone and can quote prices,
    dates and methods. In a way, it has helped me understand the stress
    he lives under, and why apparently good deals can go sour on you,
    with no fault of your own. However, I also think I am too involved
    in what he does, maybe too critical as I understand so much of what's
    happening. I also shoulder a part of his stress, plus a full-time
    job at DEC, plus children, plus pets, plus shopping, washing, cleaning,
    ironing, cooking... See what I mean? 
                                     
    It the first time that a note has touched me so near the bone, and
    I now realize how much easier it is to councel somebody about a
    problem that has not touched you: you know, the "do this", "do that"
    type of thing, which just leaps to your mind when you read somebody's
    note. 
    
    One thing which has been suggested already, and which I endorse
    completely, is to talk to one or several people you
    know will listen. Though you may not really need their suggestions,
    the fact that you voice your concerns will help you sort them out
    and put them in perspective. In my case I have one friend and
    my mother I can talk with and trust completely, and it has helped
    enormously. This has sometimes placed a burden on them, but that's
    what friends are for and I have also been their "listener" when
    they needed it.
    
    Re: children 
    
    Divorce is generally held to be more easily accepted by smaller
    children. Again it is a "general" thing, and each child is different.
    However it seems to have worked out this way for all of our friends
    who have divorced. 
    
    Joana

    I also think the "pack up the kids and get out" approach is too drastic
    for this situation.  I would reserve that as a last resort or if
    someone (wife or children) were being abused or very frightened. 
    
    I would suggest that you sit down and talk to him about how you are
    feeling, what you want, and what you need.  He may be very shocked to
    find out that you aren't happy.  I would also suggest to quit playing
    "dutiful wifey".  In .17 you say you are working at DEC, working as his
    secretary, cooking, cleaning, child care, etc.  This amounts to 3 jobs!
    I think you need to quit working so hard.  Stop being his secretary.
    Let him hire one.  Hire a maid to help with the housework if you can.
    You need to do things for yourself, and you need time to do that. 
    
    If this individual approach doesn't work, see a marriage counselor,
    either through your church or a non-religious one.  If he won't go with
    you, go by yourself.  If both approaches fail - he isn't at all
    interested in working things out with you, leave on a trial basis.  If
    this doesn't wake him up, file for divorce.  Please leave the children
    with both parents as much as possible.  Even if he isn't interested in
    you, he may be in them. 
    
    Elizabeth

    Jeff, you are right in making this suggestion and I neglected to
    mention that SO and I spent 3yrs building our own home. Therefore
    I have lived with the "industry" for some time. I do know the
    terminology and read his "construction" periodicals. I do this for
    two reasons: my job requires different industry specialization plus
    and when building your own home it is benefical when asked to "go
    get my level" you know at least what it looks like. The problem I
    feel stems from the fact that I have made these efforts but SO feels
    threaten by the fact that I can converse with his peers when I know
    what is going on. By excluding me his has total control of these
    conversations. That seems harsh and I don't mean to be. This is
    an observation I have made in the recent past. 
    
    Furthermore, yes I have been a supportive wife, but not an
    unquestioning one. I do ask questions but most of the time I have
    been given base answers because I "wouldn't understand" This is
    what makes me see "red"!
    
    I do sincerely thank you for the suggestion,
    
    Helena 

    When I was reading the replies to this note, I also noticed a few
    patterns.

    1.  It was [some of] the men who urged her to work harder at making
    her husband the center of her life -- and to do it in a thoroughly
    non-threatening manner.

    2.  It was [some of] the men who urged Helena to stay with the
    marriage *in order to* not waste nine years.

    3.  There was no suggestion which only a man had made which she had
    not already tried.

    4.  [Some of] the women stated their qualifications, or warned of
    their lack of them, but none of the men did.

    Now, we are talking about a very small sample here.  It could be
    outrageously off.  Still, I believe that I've seen these patterns
    before, and seen them frequently.

    Now, here's a little fact:

    	9 out of 10 women stay with an alcoholic husband.
    	9 out of 10 men leave an alcoholic wife.

    (What has *that* got to do with anything? you ask.  It's backgroung
    for the following, I reply.)  From that, we can deduce that when a
    woman says, ~I'm at the end of my rope.~, she really means it.

    Therefore, men-people, I would suggest that, when you respond to
    such a note as this, do not assume that the woman is keeping a few
    yards of fine manila hemp in reserve.  Begin your suggestion with
    something like:  "You've probably already tried this, but..."
    *Demonstrably* grant her the dignity of having more than a few
    adjacent brain cells.

    Also, all-people, before using the argument of ~Don't waste all
    those years you've already spent together.~, reread the author's
    description(s) of those years, and how she (or he) feels about
    then, now, and the future.  Weigh that before using the line.

    On a harsher note.  Well, not harsher, but the following should (in
    my opinion) be thought about carefully, honestly, and deeply by
    those men-people who suspect that I might -- however unjustifiably --
    be addressing them, so I will sound a louder, more emphatic note,
    and this will probably come across as harsher.

    One or two of you gave advice on the order of:  Make a great effort
    and cater to his ego.  This was given with the implication that it
    would please him, so he would be pleased with her, so everything
    would be fine.  Um.  Now that you read it, does it sound like a
    great idea?  Heck, does it sound like an idea that would even work?
    Also, turn it around a bit.  Is this advice you would give a man
    in a similar situation?  Now, really think about this.

    Hey!  Wait!  Hush!  Wait!  I don't want any replies to those questions.
    *You* think about them, in the privacy of *your* head, and come to
    *your* conclusions.  They are not for me or for this conference.
    If you become uneasy and embarrassed about what you wrote here or
    were thinking of writing, that's all right.  I absolve you.  :-)
    They were not thoughts you came to think because you started from
    first principles and worked them out for yourself; they are only
    residues of the way your culture presented "a woman's place in
    marriage".  You may rework them at any time without a single qualm
    or apology, even an apology to yourself.

    							Ann B.

    
    
    Ann does it again.
    
    She has a neat way of bringing the topic back to reality and not
    getting lost in the process.
    
    _peggy
    
    rep .0
    
    If you are feeling totally overwhelmed (sp) try to schedule a long
    weeekend or something for yourself, by yourself.  Go somewhere that
    is important to you and gives you a strong sense of self.  RELAX.
    Then just before you return think about why you are returning and
    what it is you are returning to.  I have done this many times and
    have found that it helps keep me honest with myself about what I
    do and why I do it.
    
    As others have said talking to someone who listens is very helpful
    also.  I have been divorced twice, I initiated both.  I got all
    the debts in both cases.  I think that I have made some progress
    on relationships, but it means I have to be honest with myself all
    of the time.
    
    _peggy
    
    		(-)
    		 |	She will answer only if you ask the right question.
    			

re: .20

Thank you, Ann, for expressing my exact thoughts on this subject.

I feel strongly for what Helena is going through -- one of my very 
closest friends is currently in a similiar situation, evaluating a 15-
year marriage in which she has come to the end of her rope.  I would 
suggest that when most women reach that point, they are in fact rather 
like the coyote in old "Road Runner cartoons -- off the cliff and 
scrambling to run in mid-air.

The advice both of these women have gotten has been very much of the 
"what is it about YOU that makes him that way?"  When a woman isn't 
getting what she needs from a relationship, she's usually told she needs
to put out even MORE, to deny her own feelings and coddle the other
partner so that maybe he'll be able to notice and respond to her needs,
once all of his are met. She's given all the responsibility for her own
emotional fulfillment as well as her male partner's -- he seems to have to
carry no responsibility at all for the relationship. 

This idea that she shouldn't "waste" 9 or 15 or whatever years of a 
relationship is absurd.  It would be worse to waste the rest of her life, 
living as if she weren't entitled to better.  The idea that a 
relationship is worth having at any cost is devastating to one's self-
respect and personal integrity, diminishing one's capacity for happiness.

Helena, if you're not getting what you want, believe me, it's better to 
go it alone.  Although it can be frightening, being on your own can give 
you the breathing space to heal and tend to yourself in a way that being 
in an unsatisfying relationship cannot.  There is no terror out there 
that can be worse than the day-by-day wearing away of your self-worth 
that occurs when you are not heard, not responded to, and not supported
in your personhood.  Emotional starvation of this kind brings a kind of 
numbness, so the pain and anger may not even take on its full dimension
until after you've started to get a little emotional food.

Insofar as children are concerned, they are better off with one whole 
and healthy fulltime parent, than two that are crippled from emotional
deprivation.  Take care of yourself -- you and your child deserve it.

    I think Ann's observations are pretty well on the mark and
    the title of her reply (.20) alludes (I'm guessing intentionally)
    to something that I think is real important here.  While we
    all have our valid-for-me experiences, we are essentially
    amateurs in the counselling profession.  A couple of other
    folks have mentioned it, but I think it's well worth saying
    again - a good therapist can make a world of difference.
    
    This isn't meant to make any less of the thoughts people have
    shared here; I have a feeling that much of what has been said
    is/will be of value to you, Helena.  But it occurs to me that
    the stakes here are pretty high and worth seeking the help
    of professionally trained people.  I personally think the
    best way to go would be for each of you to do some individual
    therapy then, if it makes sense, do some couple counselling
    together.
    
    But my point is that I don't (and probably cannot) *know* what's
    best for you and your husband and I don't have the training to
    help you and your husband discover what's best for both of you
    (and the children, of course).
    
    All of this is said with the assumption that you all aren't already
    doing therapy; if you are, my apologies for the assumption.  I mean
    only to offer what support I can.
    
    Steve
    

    Yes, I am in counseling on my own and have been for the past several
    months. I have recently made an appointment for joint counseling
    in which the first one is tomorrow. (I'm scared!!!) I'm not even
    sure SO will show up. He has advised that he has a conflict and
    "that its no big deal". Regardless I am going!!! Whether he chooses
    to make personal counseling an option for him is up to him. I am
    tired of carrying his and my load. He's 37 and old enough to make
    decisions for himself!  If I sound angry...well I am. There have
    been some recent developements that have made me realize that the
    biggest problem is that I feel powerless in any situation in my
    personal life. I have always been in the react mode never proactive.
    Everyone elses needs always took precedence...Well its time for
    me to stand up and be counted too! I am trying to go into the
    counseling sessions with an open mind. Work on whatever needs to
    be worked on (with him or without him) and go forward either together
    or separate! What I mean is that if it is indeed over then lets
    end it the right way knowing why it ended and becoming better
    individuals so that other potential relationships have a chance.
    
    H  (smiling because I want to)
    

    re .25 by helena
    
    all right, helena. it sounds like you're feeling very strong right
    now. keep up the good work.
    
    a silent supporter
    liz

    Spot on, Helena.  I agree with Liz:  you sound as though you have
    the strength you need to take care of yourself.  Hang in, sister.
    
    						=maggie