Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    First suggestion...encourage Lisa Chabot or someone else to
    go through all the notes once every month or more to make 
    comments on notes that should be reivived.

    do something about my terrible spelling and editing habits

    
    
    
    Perhaps we could all try a little harder to respond to 
    the contents of a note, without regard to the gender of
    the writer....
    
                          DK
    
    

    i think that sometimes some of the notes entered here are done so
    while people are very angry.
    please people take the time to count to ten first before replying.\
    
    what i do is generally send mail to someone not invovled saying
    so and so is an idiot or maybe that these people have no idea 
    what they are talking about.
    i do that so i dont do it in notes.i guess it is an outlet of sorts.
    unconstructive anger does not do anyone any good,and may hurt some
    people.
    

    
    I suggest authors of notes be encouraged to clearly specify
    whenever they would prefer that men not reply to that note.
        
    See 577.* for discussion and 'smarmy' version of above.

    
    	I agree with the previous reply which said "dont reply in anger".
    
    	 We all lose our "wisdom" when we act while emotionally upset.
    
    One way to avoid "impulsive" responding is to not use the notes.edit
    facility, rather, exit notes and use your favorite editor to assemble
    your reply. You may even wait till "this afternoon" and perhaps
    re-read what you've said, to see if it's *really* what you want
    to convey. This gives you a chance to "see where you're coming from"
    as another - with a different perspective - would upon reading your
    reply.
          
    	Joe Jas
    

I think that some topics need separate discussions based on the intent.
For instance, I want to explore some topics without having the authors justify 
and defend every statement.  Differing opinions are valid, but I would like to 
see wholesale disagreement with the base topic explored elsewhere.

    Maybe we should label our replies as either 'gut reaction'
    or 'considered opinion' according to whether we took time
    to cool off before replying or reacted immediately.
    A "CO" or "GR" would allow the other noter(s) to weight
    our responses accordingly.
    
    Dana

    I don't like codes much, though...I agree with the cooling-off period
    ideas (honest, I've been trying it!), but it doesn't always help
    cool off, unless you really try hard to cool down--you can just
    spend all that time getting hotter and hotter.  Heck, heat isn't
    a bad thing!  Name-calling is kind of, although, well, not many
    of us are perfect, and maybe we shouldn't be.  What about budgeting
    it? "Okay, I'll allow myself 2 bad things per 100 notes" or maybe
    3 weeks. :-)  If you feel like blowing up more often, maybe reconsider
    posting some of them.  Give a friend a friendly tease instead.
    SOMETIMES, the anger you've got may have a lot to do with outside
    things.  That's okay.  Remember to spend your anger wisely.
    Also, if somebody does call you a name, cool down about it after
    awhile, for your own health's sake if nothing else.
    And take heart--if you don't react to an irritating note, there's
    enough of us here that SOMEBODY will.  (If nobody does after 4 days
    or so, and you still want to, hey, why not?)              
    
    Another good thing is thanking someone.  Either through mail or
    posting.  If somebody has gone out on a limb, don't just leave it
    to Bonnie to thank them.  Even if you feel you've vehemently disagreed
    with that person in the past, if you liked it, say so.

    1. Try and meet people. Especially those you disagree with.
       If physical meeting is not possible/practical try the phone.
       Be nice try to understand them as a person. Make friends
       or at least acquaintances of them. MAIL is not so good because
       it's still a lot like NOTES. Even phone calls let you pick
       up tones of voice. This has worked for me.
    
    2. Analyze peoples comments to your notes. Some people automatically
       assume that a reply is directed at them just because they are
       a man or a woman. Think if there is some other reason (like your
       opinion is different) that this person could be upset. Take
       criticism on your notes as criticism of your note and not as an
       attack on your person/gender/race/the conference/etc. 

    3. Take time out when you get hot/frustrated. Drop out of a conference
       for a week and your blood pressure can return to normal. You
       can use the time to get real work done. :-)
    
    4. Communicate with your friends from the conference outside the
       conference. Use MAIL or the phone or personal visits. Let people
       know off-line when they've helped you with a note or when you
       appreciate something they've said. There's a real world outside
       of Notes and it helps keep a sense of reality if we get reminded
       of that every once in a while.

    5. Try moderating a conference for a while. It will give you new
       appreciation for the work and pain that Maggie and Bonnie go
       through on a regular basis. If you can't moderate one find a
       burnt out moderator (stop by if you're in Salem) and ask them
       what it's like. Budget several hours.
    
    6. Assume that people are good kind loving people until given total
       proof that they're not. Said proof must come from more then their
       replies in notes.

    7. If you don't have anything to say on a topic; don't say it. This
       is serious. Some people think they have to reply to every topic
       or at least to every note by some people. This is the kind of
       reply that generates more heat then light.
    
    8. Avoid topics that only make you mad. I mean really are you going
       to change the mind of someone who doesn't want to be confused
       with the facts? If you must, put your thoughts in once, make
       your point and stay away. People aren't going to change your
       mind after they've got you upset. At least that's how it works
       for me.
    
    9. Spell check your notes, look over your grammar, and used mixed
       case. Why? Because you want to avoid avoidable irritations to
       your reader.
    
   10. Don't write notes that are too long (this one is pushing it,
       100 lines is too long). If you need that much then you probably
       have material for several notes/topics. Spread it around so
       people can deal with it.

    Maybe I'll have more after I've had time to think about it.
        
    			Alfred

Here is an extract from a note I've written for another conference.  This
might be of use/interest in womannotes, too.

Rita
**************************************************************************

Another suggestion to toss around.  This file has many readers.  Any
group this big will tend to break off into smaller groups for discussion.

If you have a particularly sensitive topic, consider hosting a temporary
private conference on your machine to discuss it further.  Invite, say,
half a dozen people from the file who you trust and who are interested in
pursuing the topic further to join your file.  Please invite by mail, not
in the file, unless you want all of us hogging your machine resources ;-)

I realize that not everyone has the resources/privileges/whatever to do
this, but for some of us it may be a valid solution.

**************************************************************************

Comments?
/r

    A couple more ideas.
    
 1. Don't expect the moderators to do everything. In my experience
    (over 4 years in notes) Noters build conferences. Moderators
    can get in the way and take down. This is a limit on what moderators
    can actually do not on what they want to do. After all deleting
    and hiding notes are taking away not adding. Moderators are there
    largely to protect the Company not individuals.
    
 2. Ignore woman/man bashers. Seriously. No one says you have to read
    and/or reply to every note. [Except moderators should read them
    all!] Most bashers do so for the reaction. Deny them that reaction
    and you punish them. Most people *hate* to be ignored. The more
    male chauvinist a man is the more he hates to be ignored by a woman.
    Use the next note command and don't let anyone get to you.
    
 3. Write more base notes. Base notes set the tone and the agenda for
    any conference. There are a lot of basenotes here by men trying
    to understand women but surely there are other topics of interest
    to women then those? Start more base notes on what women are interested
    in and more women (and even men?) will be interested in participating.
    
    This is not to say that there aren't a lot of great base notes from
    women but, hey, there's always room for more right? The same people
    who REPLY can WRITE.
    
    		Alfred
    
    PS: Keep those cards and letters coming. You're making me feel
    better about this conference already.

    [can i pretend i didn't read alfred's .13 until after i entered
    this note?]
    
    i'd like the moderators to help us stay more moderate. when
    things get hot, it really helps when maggie and bonnie suggest that
    we cool off or take the issue off-line. i wish they'd do this more
    often.
    
    i wish we all listened more carefully.
    
    i wish we showed more respect for each other.
    
    i wish people would stop abandoning the conference, and would stay
    to try to make it better.
    
    i wish that none of us felt like second class citizens here.
    
    
    
    liz

    As a new reader/writer, I'm appalled by the amount of flaming that
    goes on.  I'd like to suggest that:
        women who hate men
        men who hate women
        people who want to flame
    go far, far away.
    
    Just from a practical point of view, has a flame message ever convinced
    anyone of anything?  Does it do anything except clutter up the
    conference and cause messages of worth to be perhaps overlooked,
    even by those who are willing to wade thru the debris for the sake
    of worthwhile messages?
    

    Instead of submitting controversial topics here, post them first
    in SOAPBOX. The skilled debaters, pundits, sages, and opinionated
    sob's there will quickly pounce on you, tear your ideas to pieces,
    and perhaps even find the errors in your logic. Then, chastized,
    corrected, and with your skin thickened, you can post your revised
    topic here and face the music calmly.
    
    MANUFACTURERS WARNING ** This method is not recommended for use
    by the faint of heart. **
    
    But as the philosopher said, "That which does not kill me makes
    me stronger."
    
    
    Dana :-)x100

    In my personal life, I'm comfortable with a process/content ratio
    of about 15%/85%.
    
    I wonder what the process/content ratio of womannotes is?  I think
    that at times the process aspects outweigh the content.
    
    Holly

I would like to see a class of topics where the replies were supportive of the 
basenote.  Conflictual or distracting entries would not be tolerated.  Sorta 
like the nuclear free zones, only they are obnoxous free zones (OFZ).
    
How?  The author of the basenote would be bestowed with honorary moderator 
absolute priviliges.  Thus the basenote author has absolute control over the
tone and direction of their topic.  A person submitting a reply understands 
that the topic operates with the ofz protocol.  The basenote author could 
request the replying author to take their reply and start their own basenote.
Thus detracting debates and tangents could be pursued on their own merits 
without detracting from the course of the basenote, preserving the replying 
author's right to free speech (If you're going to be obnoxous, do it somewhere 
else).

If the replying author did not comply then they would be automatically guilty 
of escalating a conflict, and had better research their motives.  This preserves
the basenote author's effort, and allows them to guide the discussion much as
happens in a college classroom.

For instance, there are several good discussions on woman's spiritual herstory.
I would prefer not to hear debate around the validity of woman's herstory or 
compare it with the Judeo-Christian line, unless the basenote author "blesses" 
this activty.  The other debates are fine, they are valid, just take them 
elsewhere.

    re .20:
    
    All the author of a topic (xxx.0) has to do to implement this is
    to set the note nowrite and explain why, and the proceudre for
    responding.
    
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /

@    All the author of a topic (xxx.0) has to do to implement this is
@    to set the note nowrite and explain why, and the proceudre for
@    responding.

That's fine for the mechanical part, I would like to see the *spirit*
of discussion, as defined by the author, be respected by all who contribute.
I would like formal recognition that basenote authors have the authority to 
moderate the topic.

I wonder why topics are trashed.  Did the basenote author really beleive that 
they could moderate their own topic?  If they did and the topic looses 
continuity or becomes bogged down in dysfunctional discourse then it happens 
because the author allows and approves of the direction replies take.  If that 
is true then I have no basis for complaining when there is more heat than light.

Nancy

Maybe we could use a rule stating that no contributor may reply to
    any topic more often than one in six or eight replies. That would
    help eliminate the one-on-one line-by-line arguments that crop up
    occasionally. It's discouraging to open this file after half an
    hour and find that two people have turned a topic into a "you
    said - no I said - no you said..." closed discussion.
    
    And yes, I mean you, and you, and you, and especially YOU !
    
    Please ask for clarification *offline*, thank you.
    
    Dana

    How about if we leave the moderation to the moderators.  EVERYONE
    has an opinion on how this file should be run, and of course EVERYONE'S
    opinion is *the* way to go.  If the file discourages, upsets and disturbs,
    ... DELETE IT FROM YOUR NOTEBOOK.  The moderators follow corporate
    policy, anyone who REALLY doesn't like it here should REALLY not
    contribute.
    
    

    In Europe (I think) there is  a tax called "VAT" ... Value Added
    Tax. The theory is simple: Every time "goods" are handled in such
    a way that "value" is added to them they are subject to an incremental
    taxbased on that value.
    
    Good conversations can be likened to the VAT. Every time you read
    a note, one could ask the question: 
    
    What value can I add to this discussion ?
    
    If one were limited to, say, 5 responses per day across all non_job
    related notes; would the value go up while keeping the volume down?
    
    just my thoughts,
    Bob
    
 

RE: .20

Hmmm... Do you mind if I take this idea and run another way with it?

If the author of a TOPIC can set the topic /nowrite, then we could break up the
"moderation" of a Conference into the "editing" of individual topics.

The way it would work is that you create a TOPIC with directions to send replies
in MAIL to the author, set it /nowrite, and wait for the REPLYs to be sent to
you.  Then you post the replies that you wish to post.  If someone doesn't like
what REPLYs you post, then let them start their own topic!

It sounds too good to be true...

Jim.