Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    I'm not terribly fond of that idea.  It prohibits men from asking
    questions about the topic that might help them understand the
    discussion.  It prevents men from adding to the discussion if they
    have an expreience which might shed light on the subject being
    discussed.  If the base note says "I'd like to know how many
    women ...", (sort of an informal poll), men shouldn't answer
    the question, but should feel free to be able to respond to the
    inevitable subtopics that creep up from the basenote (perhaps
    by starting a new note).
    
    My opinion,
    
    Dave
    

    	RE:  .1
    
    	Dave, you have so many strong opinions on how a notesfile about
    	women's issues should be run, one wonders why you don't just
    	start your own notesfile (you can call it "Men Discuss Topics
    	of Interest to Women.")
    
    	That way, you wouldn't have to be bothered with the real feelings
    	of women.  You could just make up some new feelings that might
    	suit you better.
    
    							Suzanne...

    
    	P.S.  No, I have a better idea.
    
    	The notesfile could be called "DAVE Discusses Topics of
    	Interest to Women."
    
    						   Suzanne... :-)
    

    Re .0
    
    I think that is a considerate gesture and a good idea.  I suggest
    that the only comments men enter are to point us to additional notes
    they may start to comment on/digress from the original topic.
    
    My first thought was that this could be abused.  But I rather doubt
    you guys would let us get away with that.  :)
    
    -Tracy
    

I'm curious.  Would it be more in keeping with the purpose and intent of this
file for notes to be marked with an (M) if the author has no objection to (or
indeed is interested in) answers from the Male followers/supporters of this 
file? 

 That is, the default action would be for male contributors to read the
discussions unless it is indicated that their opinions would be welcomed.
 Now, obviously there would be cases where free speech would intrude, and men
and women would contribute regardless of convention, but I do think that some
such indication of "original intent" would be useful and well withiin the
bounds of Corporate Policy.

 Again, there would be nothing to stop parallel discussion of the topics in
the other "soft" notesfiles such as MENNOTES, HUMAN-RELATIONS and (Power Protect
us) SOAPBOX. 

			Nigel

    I consider myself a guest in this conference; this implies an
    appropriate level of conduct. This is the main reason why I have
    refrained from contributing (the other is hours in the day).
    
    I find some of the notes in this
    conference valuable to me, and I would hate to be denied access.
    On the other hand I agree that "pre-moderated" discussions of the
    type suggested in .0 might help to focus discussion and increase
    the supportive content.
    
    regards,
    Heinrich

    re: .0
    
    Why stop with just a "W" ? People everywhere like to know *who*
    is respondiing to their note, and for certain types of questions
    would like the *general* noting public to refrain from responding, and
    have just a "piece wise group" respond, such as "just men" or "just
    gays" or "just christians" or "just etc.". 
    
    This doesn't imlpy that others aren't just, but rather just is used a
    delineation term.
    
    A suggested  model of "abbreviations" might be:
    
    "W" Women
    "M" Men
    "L" Lesbians
    "G" Gays 
    "O" Old folks over the normal age of 'young'.
    "Y" Young folks (less than old)
    "F" Fun lovong folks
    "U" Useless, or feeiling that way
    "O" Outdoorsy types, typicaly runners, bikers, striders,
	    swimmers,hikers
    "M" Married Folks
    "SM" Single Males
    "F" Feminists
    "M" Macho Males
    "S" Super_moms (do_all, know_all, fathers_too)
    
    Of course, a committee would need to be called and some plan would
    be needed to implement the 'abreviations' across all teh conferences
    which felt would benefit by such .
    
    
    
    

    
    

    Re: .0
    
    You're making things worse. Your basenote is smarmy and condescending.
    If someone doesn't want men to reply to their note, they usually
    make it pretty clear. We don't need any "(W)" convention. The phrase
    "I'd like replies from women only." included in the basenote has
    been effective in the past.
    
    Stop trying to set the agenda. The best way for men to participate
    in this file is to shut up and *listen*.
    
    	-- Charles
    
    P.S. Yes, there's an inherent contradiction in this note.

    um Charles, may I suggest that there are better ways of telling
    .0 that you don't like his idea other than calling it 'smarmy and
    condescending' ...the idea may be unworkable in the long run,
    but in the spirit of brain storming lets try and encourage different
    ideas, okay?
    
    Bonnie
    (writing as herself, not as a moderator)

    Thanks Charles, and if you think I 'picked'  on you because
    you were someone who I trusted you are right...I have come up
    with a bright idea that I am going to start another note on
    pax
    Bonnie

    Charles
    
    ". . .how do you "nicely" tell someone that you think their note 
    contributed to the problem that it claimed solve?"
    
    How about "I think that your note may be contributing to the 
    problem you're trying to solve"?
    
    "Besides the basenote *is* smarmy. Granted, telling the unvarnished
    truth. . ."
    
    It seems to me that "smarmy" is a judgement call and, therefore
    it's truth or falsehood is relative; I, f'rinstance, didn't find
    it smarmy and therefore calling it so isn't (in my view) "truth"
    and, by extension, the author didn't seem like a jerk (again to
    me).  To be sure, I tend to agree that the qualifiers people have
    used to date (e.g. "responses from xxx only, pls") are working
    pretty well.
    
    My point (at the risk of being perceived as bickering over triv-
    ialities) is that *how* we present our opinions does make a lot
    of difference.  If you were to say something like "I still feel
    the note was smarmy and this bothers me because. . ." I (and I
    think some others) would respond quite differently.  When I'm
    told that something is ". . .unvarnished truth", I tend to ask
    myself how that "truth" compares to my own particular experiences;
    (and respond from that framework); when someone says "I feel 
    that xxx is the case. . .", my response is more along the lines
    of "Hmmm - interesting point of view".  
    
    JOPO,
    
    Steve (who *never* has a bad day, is always supremely articluate; and
    if anyone thinks differently they can take it and shove. . .oh,
    uh, sorry. . .never mind).
    
    

    [This has been slightly edited at a moderator's request. -- Charles]
    
    Hi Bonnie,
    
    I was harsh in my note because I was pissed off. I'm tired of listening
    to people talk about how the vote on a separate file was "won" or
    "lost" about how Satan being male is sexist, how men should be
    congratulated for condescending to give women the vote. I was pissed
    off about yet another man trying to set the agenda in this file.
    
    I'm in an awkward position here, being a man myself, but I try to keep
    quiet, listen with an open mind, not tell others how to run the file,
    but sometimes it all just gets to be too much. You can't just sit back
    and let turkeys ruin something precious. So my obnoxious note. I'm
    sorry that it bothered you.
    
    Given that the basenote *did* bother me, and I *didn't* like it, how do
    you "nicely" tell someone that you think their note contributed to the
    problem that it claimed solve? 
    
    Besides the basenote *is* smarmy. Granted, telling the unvarnished
    truth is usually the quick end to a friendship, but sometimes I get
    tired of trying to find a pleasant, reasonable, constructive, way to
    tell someone that they're being a jerk. 
    
    I realize that I wasn't being constructive. I'm sorry. To try to make
    up for it, I will propose a different way of handling the all too real
    problem of men dominating this conference. I mentioned it in my note,
    I'd like to emphasize it. It has two parts: 
    
    	1) Men should shut up in this file.
    	2) Men should listen to what their sisters are saying.
    
    Shut up doesn't mean never reply, shut up doesn't mean leave the
    file, shut up doesn't mean not disagree. Shut up means not posting
    just because you have an opinion. Shut up means give other voices
    a chance to be heard. Shut up means stop trying to have the last
    word.
    
    Listen doesn't mean agree. It means empathize. Stand in her shoes.
    *Feel* the anger, hurt, love, whatever. It means stop trying to
    make *her* understand how *you* feel, and try to understand her.
    That, to me, is what this file is all about. For me, it is a place
    to listen to women, and *very* occasionally contribute.
    
    Now I'll take my own advice, shut up, and let someone else have
    the last word.                                                      
    
    	In sisterhood,
    	-- Charles

    I have had this analogy in my head for well over a year -- almost
    since this notefile began, in fact -- and now I have an opportunity
    to use it.

    Imagine, if you will, that a few veterans of Viet Nam started up
    a notefile to discuss the experiences of Viet Nam veterans, rather
    than a few women started up a notefile to discuss the experiences of
    women.

    Then the question comes:  ~Do you have to have served in Viet Nam
    to join this file?~

    Unsurprisingly, the answer is, ~Uh, gee, no.  We can't really think
    why you'd be interested if you weren't there, but, well, it's all
    right.  Umm.  One ground rule though -- no ranting about how the
    war was immoral, and we were wrong to be there, and stuff like that,
    okay?~

    Discussions start.  Now, when people start talking about the heat
    in Viet Nam, do you *really* want to put in a reply that (essentially)
    begins, ~I've never experienced temperatures over 80 degrees, but
    I think...~ ?  Of course not.  You can just imagine all those cold
    eyes in those tired, carefully blank faces looking at you, then
    turning away without changing expression.

    It should not be any different in WOMANNOTES.  If you have not had
    this experience <x>, which marks people for life, you should not
    give your opinion on experiencing <x>, unless you want to feel like
    a $#!+.  You should not ignore the rule on bashing.  You should let
    the people with the experience reply first to a note.  You should
    think three times before starting a note.

    And always, before you reply, ask yourself, ~Would I make the reply
    analogous to this in VIETVETS?~  Then listen *carefully* to your
    answer.

    							Ann B.

    			Standard Analogy Warning

    		This analogy can be pushed only as far
    		as the author intends it to be pushed,
    		and not one example further.  Failure
    		to accede to these limits may cause
    		significant sneering and lip-curling.

    ooh, Ann, I liked that....*especially* the analogy warning

	Gee,

	I thought things were alot better now than they were
	8 months ago.  I like asking questions, I like stating
	my opinion.  I enter notes (recently) that try not to
	start a ruckus.....

	Why can't we do what we are doing now....WHy do every fourth
	day, does someone have to start with the Men shouldn't reply
	stuff.....

	If there were no MEN on this planet, would feminism be
	a force.  Would competition stop ?

	I think if there were no WOMEN on this planet, I'd go nuts.
	They seem to be th people I can talk to, to help me out of
	my social problems, and kick me in the ass, when I need it.

		I appreciate what alot of people have said to me,
	from this conference on a personal basis.  It has helped
	me grow mature, and helped me understand how I affect women
	with my attitudes, and judgements.....
	If I never wrote in here, I certainly wouldn't be able to
	deal with alot of things at this time.


				Michael


		
	

	

    
    RE: .14 
    
    Ann, I loved your analogy warning.  May I extract it?
    
    CQ

    Re:. 14
    
    A long time ago I ran across a suggestion for using an analogy in
    a different fashion that I like as well:  when someone explains
    to you why a woman can't do something, change the explanation so
    that:  man is replaced by white man and woman is replaced by black
    man.  Then run that under their nose and see if they can finally
    recognize the bigotry in what they are saying.  I'm now waiting to
    hear an explanation of why black men can't be priests....
    

    Thats great Karen_:-)  I'm anxious to hear that explanation too.
    Mary

    thankyou Bob!

    Sure, Christine.
    						Ann B.

    my aunt is a UU minister....and a damn good one, too (got her own
    parish and everything).
    so there are some female clergy out there....
    
    -Jody
    

    UU = Unitarian Universalist
    There are a lot of Protestant denominations that ordain women
    as minsters, Congreational, Methodist, Lutheran and Episcopalian
    to name four that I am familiar with but there are many others.
    
    One of my closest friends 12 years ago became an Episcopal Priest
    and now has a Parish in Hyde Park Mass. Her husband works for Dec.

    re .0  Fair enough. My hope is that the idea of this divisory
           stuff (M), (F), involves only very personal specific
           gender 'concerns'. And is seen only as a rare/occasional
           option. 
             Since I believe that gender is a FAR 2nd to THOUGHT
           itself, I don't like such *planes* (F/M,Race, ad nauseum)
           to OFTEN FLY OVER that which is really important: Quality
           Ideas & Communication to everyone, and FOR EVERYONE.
             Man? Woman? No. I am Thought, Thought in a 'gender body'.
             In this scientific age, no clothes or masks can cover
           that which is known. Hardly anything. 
             I don't think a person's sex should mean (much of)
           anything. (or money, or,.. or...). Examples? Work, most
           Social interractions, and *ESP* noting (a simple medium
           if ever there was one). 
             Again, the sooner people learn to STOP attaching a
           person's sex to an idea (99% PLUS), the sooner we'll all
           benefit. The end of sexism. The end of ignorance. The 
           proper education of our children. A Partnership Society
           with the richest blend of dynamic intelligence the Universe
           will ever see. 
             With a 40% male Community here, realize that in an Equal
           Access system, it WILL at least, be SEEN. Nonetheless,
           privacy (incl - Especially!?-- Requests for PRIVACY) IS
           to be Respected, and, alas, the one inner sanctuary that
           must never, NEVER, Be LOST.
             I will respect such notes.
    
                                                          Russ

    Russ,
    
    Darn.  I've always had to use a terminal for my noting.  Are you
    your own medium for *ESP* noting?  If not, who do you use?  What
    sort of conferences are there on the ESPNet?  Would it use an
    aethernet protocol?
    
    							Ann B.
    
    :-)
    
    How do you do a smothered smile?

    Mike Z - as a moderators we are also responsible to the wishes of
    the membership of the file. If a number of people complain about
    a situation we have to try and find some sort of reasonable solution
    to the situation. I did not want to delete Jim's answer but there
    were clear objections to leaving it where it was...the only solution
    that I felt workable was to move it...but it is not, obviously,
    a solution that would please everyone. 

    And in fact that was the second posting:  I had deleted it earlier,
    on the fly (and was planning to send a copy back to Jim for his
    disposition).
    
    As far as I'm concerned, the only difference between a notestring
    and a notefile is size.  If a file can be restricted to some bounded
    area of discussion, then mutatis mutandis so can a string.  Public
    has nothing to do with it.  
                     
    						=maggie

    
    -2
    
    Spent months behind the line laying down pads for the choppers/Hueys
    to have a solid place to sit.
    
    Now talk about heat!!
    
    Sorry, just a thought!
    
    

    re .31 I am sorry but I don't understand what you are talking
    about - assuming you are referring to my note. Could you explain
    further please.
    
    Bonnie

RE: .30

I had sent mail to bonnie, stating how I felt, and asking if such a note would
be deleted.  Bonnie replied ''no''.  I posted the note.  The next day I noticed
it was missing.  I asked Bonnie if she had deleted it, and she said that she may
have accidentally, but that she meant to leave it.  I reposted the note. 

"If a file can be restricted to some bounded area of discussion, then mutatis
mutandis so can a string."

By DEC company policy, you are not allowed to discriminate by sex / race / * who
can or cannot have access to a conference. By "mutatis mutandis", you cannot
likewise do so to a Topic note string in a conference.  By your own logic you
are not allowed to do these things, following company policy.

Jim.

    Jim 
    May I add here that I strongly discouraged you from entering
    the note and several times asked you not to repost it.
    Bonnie

    re .0   Mennotes has no such 'generousities'. Until further notice,
            Equal access means JUST THAT, EQUAL ACCESS. PERIOD.
            Correct me if I'm wrong. The Women's Movement (NOW), helped
            to CREATE a breakdown of all of the 'dumb' BARRIERS that
            (apparently) existed between Women & Men. Yes? Yes.
               Sometimes I have disagreements about some of the more
            persistant groups that get into 'hallowed' Men's Clubs.
            Like the Harvard University Joke. And others. Let's have
            Men TRY that BS in the GIRL SCOUTS. Or NOW. Or, or......
               No. Some barriers are dumb. Some OK. And some leave well
            enough alone. 
               I would just participate in Mennotes if both sexes had
            a healthy interest over there. Maybe it will take outstanding
            Topics. But I've seen many good ones just fade for lack
            of interest.  Correct me if I'm wrong.
    
    
                                                    Russ

    Men have always been welcome to offer their leadership and skills
    to the Girl Scouts!  There is even a male adult Girl Scout uniform
    (blazer).

    Yes, I've known of men as girl scout leaders.  Also, there used
    to be Campus Scouts in GSA (I've been out of touch for years), and
    that was coed.
    
    Furthermore, it's the National Organization _for_ Women, not _of_
    Women.  I thought that meant men could join?  Anybody know for sure?  
    I know they can certainly contact NOW for information.
    
    Now, next time you might prefer to phrase that as a real question?  
    Naivete is no problem, but belligerance is.

    
    
    Yes there are men in NOW.  The Acton chapter has a number of men
    who are officers.
    
    _peggy
    
    		(-)
    		 |	Just about caught up and getting a little
    				fed up.
    
    

    re .40   I stand corrected. 
    
    re .41   Ms subscriptions yes. NOW has a male on the Board of 
             Directors. 
    
    re .42   If desired tell me more about this Chapter. Agenda, Memb-
             ership, library, location, etc. Do you recall what the
             Boston Chapter is called?
    
                                                        Russ

    
    This note is set write-locked by the author since its original thrust
    was FWO notes.