Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Have you ever heard a woman say something like "My SO (sorry) gave
    me a beautiful (watch, fur coat, car, flower) today I have to get
    home to thank him properly.  Or I had a women friend who would "reward"
    her husbands good behavior with sex and deny sex when he did not
    say take out the trash.
    
    Then we have heard the story of paying for sex in relationships
    and taking the money and going on trips or something.
    
    It seems to me that we all prostitute ourself in some way.  I feel
    a puritan culture has put to much emphasis on this occupation when
    it could be brought out of the gutter and given some respectability.
    
    I would not want to be a prostitute but I wouldn't want to be a
    doctor either.

    That's scary, Joyce.  I positively cannot imagine an existance in
    which my best shot was my ability to fellate someone.  
    
    						=maggie

    re .2 Too much education inhibits the imagination :-)/2  
    Serioiusly, picture yourself as 19, with no high-school
    diploma, a child, parents split up or have disowned you,
    no skills, a taste for cocaine and other drugs. Now what
    are you going to do ? Program computers ? Work at Burger
    King for $5 an hour ? Along comes Mr. Pocket_full_of_snow
    with a way you can make good bread and all you have to do
    is.....
    
    

The wife of the guy I carpool with gets a lot of speeding tickets because
she won't bat her eyelashes at the cops.

Does sucking up to cops to avoid a ticket count as prostitution?

(Can you actually avoid tickets by being extra nice, or is that just an
urban legend?)

M.

re: < Note 573.4 by MAY20::MINOW "Je suis marxiste, tendance Groucho" >
       -< "Marry a pretty girl -- they don't get tickets" -- Doonsbury >-

    Wrong!  She gets lots of tickets because she gets caught driving
    over the speed limit.
    
    						--Doug

    While there is and probably will always be some "bartering"
    over tickets (etc.), it's currently on the decline.  The
    police have, in general, come under increasing scrutiny since
    the '60's and crooks aren't the only ones getting "stung".  The
    cop who fails to ticket "a pretty face" runs an increasing risk
    that the face belongs to a member of Internal Affairs.
    
    Steve (glad to be an *ex* cop)
    

    Can we take the ticket topic elsewhere and return to the base
    note topic please.

RE: .0

I'm surprised that it's taken untill Topic 573 for this to come up.

I guess I have to say that there will continue to be prostitution, as long as
there is a market for it.  And there will be a market for it as long as there
are clients who 'cannot' get a higher quality product, some more general form of
love, respect, and affection.

I think that there will always be prostitutes because the high end does pay
well, but the low end producers are most likely there by necessity. 

Jim.

    To me, this issue is similar to the earlier one on Lesbianism...
    because it is an issue that has been long in the closet and
    something that is extremely painful/difficult to discuss for those who
    are involved. 
    
    But it is an area where it is important for women to be able to
    reach out to their sisters and give them their support.

    
    	RE:  .10
    
    	Make mine nay.
    
    

    Was that "The Sensuous Hooker" ?  Seriously, I remember reading
    a book on the subject, but that was in my 'cloudy' days and 
    memory suffers.

    Sure Russ, info is always appreciated.

    On one hand, I feel like prostitution is putting a price tag on
    a woman as though she is a toy or a piece of meat.  That it is 
    degrading and perpetuates so many myths--myths that result in the
    sexist behavior we all have to deal with every day.                  
                                                       
    On the other hand, maybe if it were legal, it would be safer and
    healthier and more profitable for these women (instead of their
    pimps).  And why shouldn't they have the right to use their own
    bodies however they want, even if it's true (I'm not saying that
    it is) that they are making it harder for the rest of us?
                                                       
    Either way, shouldn't more effort go into creating options for these
    women than into throwing them into jail?
    

    RE: .15
    
    I believe that in Nevada (probably in the greater Las Vegas 
    area) there *are* legalized houses of prostitution, licensed
    by either the state or the city.
    
    From what I've read, prostitutes may not legally ply their 
    trade on the streets there. It is legal only if the activity
    occurs only within the licensed houses.      
    
    I believe the women working within these houses receive some
    sort of medical and other benefits, in addition to their....
    aahh, salary and "bonuses".
    
      Alan

    I think my questions on this issue are more aimed towards the
    prostitutes themselves, rather than the trade.  While it is hard
    to separate the women from their trade, there are still plenty of
    questions that ARE separate.
    
    For example, there have been times in our history when prostitution
    was one of the only means of financial independence for a woman.
    
    While Mae West was no prostitute, she essentially made her fame
    (and fortune) by selling sex.  Is she viewed as an incredibly
    resourceful woman or as something lower than low?
    
    And women who prostitute themselves for a man (a pimp).  How do
    we feel about that?  Many of us may enjoy the thought of dismembering
    the pimp, but what about the woman?  Should she risk DEATH (or severe
    beatings/cuttings) to prevent being used that way?
    
    Personally, I think brothels should be legal and that they should be
    run by a woman.  That is the only way I can think of to prevent
    children being used as prostitutes.  That way, the woman can work to
    support the brothel (ie. change sheets, cook meals) if she needs work
    (and shelter from some creep) but cannot face being a full-time
    prostitute.  And a prostitute would be able to keep a certain amount
    of dignity.  After all, she would be a professional.  And it would
    be a lot less "sale" of her body rather than a "rental for services
    rendered".
    
    As far as "providing a community service", I dunno.  Maybe I simply
    cannot understand the mindset of a person who would prefer to pay
    $$ for sex with a stranger to availing himself of the (free) service
    of his right (or left) hand.
    
    Interesting topic, Joyce.
    
    Lee

    RE: .17 I'd agree with much of what you expressed. Especially about
    	having legal brothels run by a woman. Recently, one of the news
    	shows (20/20, 60 mins, whatever) ran a feature about the brothels
    	in Nevada. It was enlightening to me. It seemed that everyone
    	involved benefited from a safer environment. I've often
    	wondered if the occurance of rape in Nevada is less than other
    	parts of the country because a man/woman can legally buy somewhat
    	safe sex. (I know rape is an act of violence but I still wonder).
    
    	As for pimps, shoot em! They remind me of leeches!
    	As for Mae West, I considered her very resourceful. 

    re .18
    

�    < Note 573.18 by CEODEV::FAULKNER "Kerry" >
�                       -< left or right .............. >-

�    .17
�    s'funny Lee.
�    you equated sex with left or right hand.
�    seems a little more to me than that.
    
    seems to me it is very little more than that when it is not with
    someone you care for deeply.
    
    Lee

    Just a slight clarification. There are areas in Nevada where it
    is legal but Las Vegas isn't one of them. It used to be but the
    city got concerned about its image and began to promote more of
    a family atmosphere and voted it out.
    
    I don't know if rape,abuse etc is less in those areas where it is
    legal. Thats a good question-anyone know the stats?
    

    I read in some recent epidemic-type statistics that in the area
    of New York City, 9 out of every 10 prostitutes tested, show positive
    tests that they have the virus that is shown to be a precursor to
    AIDS (HLV or something).  I wish I could remember where I read it,
    but one thing I am trying to get at is that if prostitution were
    made legal, the prostitutes (both female and male) could get treated
    if they contracted anything, and could be taken "out of the running"
    until they recuperate from "whatever they have at the time".  STD's
    are a way of life, and it seems an awful big risk for the hooker,
    as well as the john (i.e. customer), to take these days.  
    
    Also, since prostitution will always be around anyway, why not make
    it as safe as possible? 
    
    And no, I am not advocating that prostitution is a viable alternative
    to making love with someone you care about, but men have given reasons
    for visiting prostitutes which include "she listens", or "she does
    things my wife wouldn't do" or whatever.  Frankly if things were
    going so poorly in a relationship I was in that the man would seek
    out a prostitute, I'd check into a sexual counselor post haste.
    
    -Jody
    

Well, as one of the old Woodie Allen movies once said; "masterbation
is always sex with someone you love."

Prostitution is legal in Sweden; though pimping and running a brothel
is not.  The primary location in Stockhom for "street trade" is
Regierinsgatan ("Government St.") that runs by the National Parliment.

Since the police can't stop the women, this is the only street I've
seen that has "No Stopping, 8 pm--2 am" signs.

Prostitution is also legal in several other European countries, noteably
Germany and Holland.  In Holland, you walk down a perfectly normal city
street.  Many store fronts have their curtains drawn.  In others, the
curtain is open showing a neat and tidy apartment living room with a
normal looking woman (not a New York 8th Avenue hotpants floozy), knitting
in a rocker.  Many American tourists have brought back tales of their
sudden discovery of the "nature" of the street.

Martin.

Things I wish I said at the time department:  When I was in Stockholm
last year, I was walking one block from Regieringsgatan toward the
Parliment bookstore, when a young lady came up to me and asked,
"Ska vi hitta p� n�t?" ("You wanna do something?")  I [wish] I
immediately replied, "Thank you, but I'm running a marathon on Saturday."

    I feel that prostitution should be legalized.  I would not want
    my daughter or son being a prostitute, but I would not want them
    to have many other dangerous jobs, also.
    
                 Carol

    Thought provoking topic! About time.
    
    Re: Kerry
    
    I think you exaggerate, and are offensive, but your point is still
    well taken. Some men hire prostitutes for more (or less) than sex.
    Glad you pointed it out.
    
    Re: Lee
    
    As Kerry points out, a hand is an inadequate substitute for sex
    with another person. Even if sex with a prostitute is no where near
    as good as sex with your lover, it is still better than with your
    hand. (Not that I'm running down hands...) Simply because sex with
    someone you love is wonderful does that mean that you should refrain
    from all other sex? Why? If sex with a friend is simply good, isn't
    that still good? You can't eat caviar and drink champagne everyday,
    sometimes fried chicken and potatoes is nice, and some people have
    to make do with dumpster diving. We should feel sorry for them,
    no? Besides, my hands are too skinny, I prefer plumper partners
    for sex... :-)
    
    Re: EDUHCI::WARREN (what's your name?)
    
    Prostitution doesn't put a price tag on women, it puts a price tag
    on sex. It is only degrading because our society makes it so.
    Prostitution could be a honored profession, and prostitutes could
    be "professionals", like doctors, or layers, or even engineers.
    What is inherently degrading about sex for pay? We pay people to
    wash our cars, we pay people to cook our meals, we pay people to
    look after our children, why is this different?
    
    Re: Pimps
    
    If prostitution is ok, what's wrong with pimping? It's exactly
    analagous to having an agent. Granted most pimps TODAY are slime,
    but that's an effect of prostitution being illegal. I don't think
    there is anything wrong with pimping "in the abstract".
    
    Back around ten years ago, the U.S. Government published an interesting
    report called "Not the Law's Business" it was an analysis of the
    societal costs and benefits of prohibiting private use of drugs,
    consensual homosexuality, and prostitution. The conclusions it drew,
    and the analysis in it were enlightening. It concluded that some
    drugs should be kept illegal, but that some should be legalized,
    that homosexuality should not be illegal, and that prostitution
    should be legalized. I was amazed that I could get this from the
    National Technical Information Center. I guess the right hand doesn't
    know what the left is doing... :-)
    
    	-- Charles

    re .21
    Kerry,
    maybe I am being naive, but somehow I find it hard to imagine that
    most prostitutes would object to getting paid just to *talk* to a
    man...esp in this day and age of AIDS....but I freely admit that
    this is an area I can only speculate about.

    Lee,
    
    In one respect, sex with someone you're not in a relationship
    with *is* no different than using one's hand. It's the difference
    between "having sex" and "making love". But...the sensations are
    completely different, and given my druthers, the hand loses. There's
    more to sex than just orgasm, even if there's no emotional aspect
    to the encounter. Besides, there are certain acts that just can't
    be done with a hand, by definition.
    
    I don't find anything wrong with prostitution, and I think it
    should be legalized. I still wouldn't avail myself of one, though.
    I've got better things to spend my money on.
    
    --- jerry

    re .27:
    
    I can think of one reason why a prostitute may object to a "talker".
    When a "talker" pays for an hour, he will talk for an hour. When
    a (er, um,...) "non-talker" pays for an hour, he's most likely going
    to be done in 5-10 minutes. 
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    re: a few previous
    
    I guess that's what I was saying -- that I don't understand.  Anonymous
    sex (or mostly-anonymous) in my experience goes from dull to
    downright unpleasant.  That my feelings on this are by no means
    universal is no surprise but the POINT was that I don't understand
    that point of view.  If it sounds like I was CONDEMNING that point
    of view, I may have been and I was wrong to do so. [that was an
    apology]
    
    Charles, sex with a friend can be fine and fun, but I am not referring
    to friendly sex.
    
    Re: talking
    
    An old roomate of mine who was having a hard time finding a straight
    woman interested in him went to a prostitute.  [when he told me
    he thought I'd be upset or something.  I wasn't]  He paid $n for
    twenty minutes or something and needed every second of it.  He went
    back a while later, gave her $2n so they could talk first.  She
    was NOT disappointed about talking taking more time or anything.
    I don't know if she was relieved or anything like that; he didn't
    tell me.
    
    Lee
    

    Re .30, I can't really understand it either.  I think prostitution
    might as well be legal but I can't understand how anybody could
    be one for a living.  It seems to me that sex with somebody you
    love can be wonderful, sex with an attractive friend can be a lot
    of fun, but sex with X number of strangers a night sounds revolting
    to me.  On the other hand, I don't consider to be my business if
    others want to do it.  It may as well be legal so they can get treated
    better.
    
    Lorna
    

    Somehow, at least at the lower end of the scale, I don't think
    that women chose prostitution becase they regard it as a pleasant
    choice of a way to make money, but rather then *only* way to make
    money. They may well have other problems in their lives that require
    having a lot of money and this is a way to get it. At the lower
    end of the scale at least, the 'happy hooker' has to be a myth.

    I think it's a question of how our culture has isolated sexuality
    from the common scheme of things.
    
    
    We each sell pieces of ourselves everyday.  Why make a big deal
    if someone rents their genitals?

    
    
    	Bruce

    
    Interesting points about prostitution being illegal (YES/NO).
    Most people in the UK probably think that prostitution is illegal
    whereas in fact it is not. Soliciting for the purposes of prostitution
    is however an offence, as is living off of the earnings of prostitutes.
                            
    It follows from this that should a woman (or man for that matter)
    charge for her/his services in situations other than where the
    approach is made by the prostitute to the 'client', then this is
    acceptable under UK law.
    
    There are caveats; for example if a potential 'client' is seen
    persistently harassing someone for the purpose of trying to procure
    some sexual services (such as in kerb-crawling), then the police will
    take action against the person doing the harassing because in instances
    such as this the person being harassed is usually an innocent passer
    by. 

    I have no idea (except for other replies to this note) to what extent
    the above is true in other countries.
    
    Jon

    I don't think it's appropriate to harass prostitutes either.

    
    For those more inclined to read up for research, there is a good
    book on the subject by the name of "Storyville, the infamous red
    lite district of New Orleans". The book deals with the formation
    and ongoings of the largest and most notorious red lite area in
    the US.  Happened across it, wile on my trip to New Orleans, wile
    touring the city. Fascinating reading.
    
                                       Bob B

    Re .35
    
    I agree but I don't think the police look at it in quite the same
    way !!

                                                    
	I cannot support prositution.  I belive that in supporting the
legalization of prositution one is accepting the assumption that sex is
and should be a commodity.  Women's bodies are therefore transformed into
commodities that are bought and sold.  I believe that the issue of "choice"
is a red herring, who will define "choice" and what would the parameters
be?
     
	The following is an excerpt from a speech by Kathleen Barry.  Barry is
the author of Female Sexual Slavery, the book supported the legalization of
prositution.  Since writing the book, she no longer supports legalized
prositution.  She raises some excellent issues for other feminists (reprinted
without permission):
                                                   
	1. Many young girls and women in prositution have been victims of 
prior sexual abuse, particularly incest assault in the home.  Is not their
"free choice" already determined by these prior conditions?

	2. Many young girls and women have turned to prostitution because
in the face of extreme poverty, they have found no other "choice".  Why
is prositution so often the only apparent choice in the face of starvation
for women?  And most importantly, when a woman or girl is faced with either
severe poverty or rendering herself as a commodity for prositution, can
this be considered a choice at all?

	3. Liberal, Western sexual ideology uses this actual nonchoice for
poor women as a way of validating prositution for women who are not caught
in poverty.  It argues that if poor women can choose prositution as a way
of dealing with extremes of poverty, then women who are not poverty striken
but are underpaid in the labor force can logically choose prositution as
the means of earning larger amounts of money faster.

	4. Western sexual ideology states that a woman should not continue
to be exploited with the lower wages of a secretary, when she could earn
much more money in much less time as a prositute.  It does not question
the actual experience of prositution and therefore eliminates the concern
for what this "work" does to the self.

	5. When the question of "choice" is taken beyond how it is determined
by previous sexual exploitation and violation or by poverty, it brings us
to an examination of the validity of the institution from the standpoint
of women's responsibility.  We do an injustice to our sex if we do not ask
women to be socially responsible for the choices she freely makes.

	6. When prositution is accepted as a logical choice for the underpaid
woman, it is then argued, again according to Western, male liberal ideology,
that in comparison with women in marriage, prostitutes at least sell their
sex and do not give it away as do married women.  This misogynist assumption
places feminists who employ it in a position of having to accept and validate
sex and women's bodies as market commodites.

	7. Patriarchal ideology reaches its logical conclusion from the
above arguments when it is asserted that "all women are whores."  This was
the headline of the Copenhagen newspapers during the Mid-Decade of Women
meeting from an interview with members of prositute collectives organized
under the umbrella of the English based Wages for Housework.

	- Kathleen Barry "The Opening Paper"
	International Feminism: Networking Against Female Sexual Slavery
	Report of the Global Feminist Workshop to Organise Against Traffic
in Women Rotterdam, the Netherlands April 6-15, 1983

    RE: .38
    
    Ms. Valentine (I'm incredibly embarrassed - I've forgotten your
    first name <blush>) -
    
    Hasn't this come about because men are actually in control of
    prostitution? If the women them/our selves were in control,
    wouldn't it be different?
    
    Dawn
    

    	There are many young boys who are prostitutes (hustlers)
    	as well as men (gigolos) whose services are engaged by
    	both men AND WOMEN.  So I don't think it's fair to say 
    	such a sweeping statement that "men are actually in 
    	control of prostitution."

    					Carla
        

    re .38 I can't help but notice the progression from "Western
    sexual ideology" to "western male liberal ideology" to 
    "patriarchal ideology". I smell a non-sequiter there.
    
    And doesn't prostitution exist in the Orient ? Or in matriarchal
    societies ? Sounds like the author lost objectivity somewhere
    between the first and last chapters.
    
    Dana
    

    The same logic prevails regardless of the sex of the youngster or
    the structure of the society.  A youngster who has fallen on hard
    times (or who was born into hard times) is not a piece of meat to
    be consumed by those better off.
    Mary

	RE: .38

	Thank you.  I'm very undecided about where I stand on legalizing
	prostitution.  This gives me another aspect to think about.  I
	tend to lean on the side of not making it legal, but have no
	basis for feeling that.  Some very pertinent points were made
	in your note.

	...Karen

    It's not legal now in the South End, and it's still a bad job.
    Is it the selling or the purchasing that's the evil?
    Why should the degradee be treated worse than the degrader?
    Isn't this just blaming the victim?                 
    
    The very phrase "the oldest profession" is demeaning.

I guess I feel there's nothing wrong with a woman's being a prostitute
so long as that's what *she chooses for herself* for her livelihood, and
is not forced into the life via her "friendly" pimp.

Hell, I sell my body and mind to DEC, 5 days a week. In turn, I get
paid for my services. Working for DEC is *my* choice.

Why should it not be legal for a woman to sell her body, and get paid
for her services, if prostitution's *her* choice?

  Alan

    Alan,
    I hear what you're saying, but isn't there a *slight* difference
    between working for DEC and prostituting? I know we say that we
    prosititute ourselves to DEC when we mean that we could think of
    other things we'd rather be doing, but DEC pays well. But at DEC,
    it's very clean -- we come in the front door, think, write, code,
    and go home. A prostitute is bartering in something far more personal,
    something that's ordinarily "meant" to be used to procreate or to
    express love. (where's ellen goodman when i need her?). Aren't they
    different?
    
    Now that i'm writing in this string, this is a tough call for me
    to make. there are good arguments on both sides. but from the little
    i know (ok, call me ignorant. call me uninformed) about nevada's
    system, it sounds closer to what i'd like to see than what we have
    now.
    
    liz

    DEC doesn't get inside your body.

    Can  we stop an think about this a minute...does it occur to those
    who are writing here that there may indeed be women readin this
    conference who for one reason or another may have been a prostitute
    at some earlier time in their lives? Why does it seem that we are
    all writing this as if there are no readers that might be personally
    sensitive to the issue?

    
    RE .47  > DEC doesn't get inside your body.
    
        No, but it (the CO) does get in your mind (AKA headset).
        I'am not sure, which is worse.
    
                              

    I apologize in advance if this turns out to be less-than-erudite,
    or even sensible....
    
    I *think* the problem with prostitution *as it is today* has more
    to do with social or uhm...class issues than it does with the
    activity itself.
    
    If a women *chooses* (as uh..Alan? ...said) to make her living this
    way, I have no problem with her doing so. In the society right now,
    however, this choice is often made by default, if you will, by
    women who feel that they have no other choice. 
    
    RE: legality. I'm talking thru my hat here, but wouldn't legalizing
    prostitution eliminate at least the "mob" influence, and possibly
    some of the other control that isn't in the hands of the women 
    themselves..? Having to hide can often produce the more negative
    circumstances of the situation...if your pimp beats up up (or your
    John, for that matter, do you go to the cops and say "I'm a hooker
    and So-and-so beat on me."  If it were legal, (assuming the cops
    acted the way they ought to - let's not get into *that* :-(  )
    could the woman report to the cops "Mr. J Random Customer bopped
    me one, and that wasn't in the contract.." ?? (No, women do not
    *like* to be beaten - hooker or no)
    
    (Isn't it Roseanne Barr who says "If men did it so good, they wouldn't
    have to pay for it" ?? :-)  )
    
    
    Dawn
    

    Good point, Bonnie.

In some of the responses-to-date, one recurrent theme is that many (most)
women who turn to a life of prostitution, do so because they have so
few, if any, marketable skills.

I have first-hand knowledge of a prostitute-by-choice, a woman who
turned to the life, not because she didn't have any other talents she
could have utilized in the straight, business world, but rather one who
chose to live her life "on the edge".

Carol Lynne (not her real name) is a former friend of mine and my
ex-in-two-more-days. Carol Lynne has an undergrad degree in economics
and a Masters in Education. She is a highly intelligent, rather attract-
ive, extremely articulate woman.

Carol Lynne was - very possibly still is - a call girl. 

She never could abide a life that entailed getting up at six each morning, 
commuting to a job like normal people, having to work from 9 to 5, going 
to bed each night by 10:00 or 11:00, only to have to wake up at six the
next morning to start the daily cycle all over again.

Being a call girl permitted Carol Lynne the excitement, opportunities for
travel, the milieu for meeting "important" (to her) people (U.S. Senators, 
Congressmen, Federal judges, Fortune 100 Company presidents).

In her mind, being a call girl put her above "the common working stiff",
who scrabbled all year long to pay the bills, and then if lucky enough,
had a little money left over to "take a two week vacation to New York or
the Cape".

She slept late each morning, and "partied" only when she wanted to, and
only with whom she chose to. To her she was living "the good life".

Was Carol Lynne's lifestyle wrong? According to most of society, it was.
But to her, at that particular point in her life, she was doing exactly
what she wanted to do with her life, body, and mind. 

And she was the only one who had to live, and be happy, with herself and
her choices. 

Can we say she didn't make the right decisions *for her*?

  Alan
                                    

The following is being entered for a member of this community
    who wishes to remain annonymous.
    
______________________________________________________________
        
I was not sure how to start off this note.  This issue is very 
sensitive to me because I have been there.  

At thirteen I was first introduced to this scene.  I will not go  
into all details but the man was a part of my family.  He did not put me 
out on the street corner at this time, he brought me to my 'clients'.  
At 15 he saw fit to try me on the streets of Boston, MA.  At the time 
I was still expected to go to school, get good grades, and not tell 
anyone about it.  Of all the woman I met I have never ran into one who 
'enjoyed' what she was doing. Maybe there is some out there, but I 
have never met one.  At least 95% of the woman I met were out there 
working for a pimp.  The pimps purpose from what I have experienced is to 
'protect' the woman.  If she gets arrested or beat up by a john the 
pimp is supposed to resolve issues like that.  In Boston it is very 
hard for a woman to work for no-one.  She leaves herself open to be 
ripped off and beat-up by other pimps.  So about choice, there is no 
'fair' choice for a woman working in a small city.  The choice 
alot of prostitutes are faced with is either get beat-up and ripped 
off ALOT or be with a pimp who will 'protect' her.  Alot of times a 
pimp does much more harm in this environment than good.    

Alot of people usually think that if a woman doesn't want to 
be selling herself then why doesn't she just leave, which 
is commonly said about woman who are in abusive relationships, 
but they fail to realize that it is NOT that easy.  When woman 
do try to leave it is much the same as leaving an abusive spouse.  
Except that authorities are not really more than helpful.  And 
its not something you want to run to your family with or even 
friends.  But you go through the same type of fear involved 
with running from an abusive spouse.   

How the woman feels about herself, after being a part of this 
lifestyle is probably the hardest part of all.  I have found that the 
emotional pain, is much more intense than that of all the physical pain I 
endured while being a part of this.  But I can't turn back the hands of 
time so I have to try and live with it.   I cannot speak for all of 
the women who are involved in this, I have only shared what I have 
experienced and what I have seen and heard from other woman in this 
situation.

     

    re: .55
    
    Thank you for sharing your story.  Yours was a difficult life,
    and I am truly sorry that you were put into that situation.  
    I believe that prostitution should be only for adults, and that
    with legalized and regulated prostitution that we could get rid
    of the pimps and walking the streets, and that prostitutes could
    live a life of call girls, not street walkers.
    
    Your "family member" should be hung on a cross next to my father
    and all of the other people who abuse children.
    
                 Carol

    re: .55
    
    	I thank you, too, for sharing with us.  The only information 
    	I've ever been exposed to has been through various sources of 
    	media, and a real life account is more meaningful than 100 
    	docu-dramas.  I hope you are finding peace and love in your 
    	life now.
    
    re: .56  (Carol)
    
    	It would be *ideal* if prostitution could just be limited
    	to adults, but unfortunately ideal social situations are 
    	rarely manifested into reality.
    
    					Carla

Re:  last few

Thanks again for sharing your story, .55

In doing so you have touched on an aspect of prostitution which I have not
(until now) seen mentioned in this note, namely:  what work can you (legally)
do when you are young and on your own?  Child labor laws often prohibit
minors from doing things like slinging burgers or washing floors.  If a teen-
age girl has run away from home and needs money to survive on the street,
she can easily fall victim to a pimp or other street hustler who promises
money and protection.  Somehow, I suspect that many young girls who fall
into prostitution didn't choose it (just as .55 didn't) for themselves;
rather, they were forced into it due to circumstances beyond their abilities
to cope.

Is it possible that our child labor laws have caused more harm than good in
this area?

					--Q (Dick Wagman)

    Re .58, I definitely don't think that child labor laws have caused
    more harm than good!  I'd rather see a few runaways turn to
    prostitution than see industry be able to hire children to work
    for peanuts the way they did in Lowell, Lawrence, etc., when the
    mills were flourishing.  After all, I've seen signs in McDonald's
    lately saying "We are now hiring 14 year olds".  I would rather
    work at McDonald's than be a prostitute.  Heck, I've worked at Digital
    as a secretary for peanuts for 12 years.  I guess I could have tried
    to become a prostitute or a drug dealer or something.  I probably
    would have made more money.
    
    There have been times in notesfiles where I have complained about
    the low pay secretaries receive only to be told by most people that
    I should have gone to college, should go to college nights, should
    work two jobs, and one man in notes even suggested I get married
    again if I can't get by on my pay (such a feminist attitude!). 
    I guess it's only my relatively advanced age that kept anyone from 
    suggesting I become a prostitute!  It just annoys me that people
    can be so understanding towards prostitution but not the plight
    of an underpaid secretary.
    
    Actually, *I* think prostitution should be legal to stop the
    exploitation but I still can't really understand how anybody can
    do it.  Maybe that's the trouble with being raised by old-fashioned
    prudes instead of abusive parents!
    
    Lorna
    

    Some people have made suggestions like that. And others of us agree
    with you, Lorna, and don't think that professional, skilled secretaries
    should be paid poor wages.
    
    I think I remember writing a note suggesting that secretarial work
    should be separated into categories like clerks, secretaries, data prep
    people, and entry level computer professionals who plan to move on to
    technical jobs.  Career secretaries should be highly paid and
    recognized as such, I think.
    
    When I did time as a secretary (and I don't think I was very
    good at the secretarial people-support part) I *felt* like a prostitute
    sometimes.  
         

This is a response from the author of .55
    __________________________________________________________
    
 Re. 59

>I'd rather see a few runaways turn to prostitution than see industry 
>be able to hire children to work for peanuts the way they did in 
>Lowell, Lawrence, etc.,

I don't know much about that issue, want to shed some light?

I would rather see my children working a non-life threatening, 
lower-paying job than prostituting, if they needed/wanted money.  All 
children for that matter!  

When you say `a few runaways' do you have any idea of how many young 
kids, teenagers you are talking about, THOUSANDS!  Look at LA, 
Phili, NY, Atlanta, Boston, Washington, etc., and see how many kids 
are out there because they don't have any money and nowhere to go.  
Not just runaways, btw, but kids who are just away for home for 
various reasons, who just can't get a job because they are too young.
I am not saying that all runaways do this, but more than just a few 
do, either by walking into blindly, or walking into with they eyes 
wide open because they see no other way.  Pimps spot runaways like 
a cat spots a mouse.  Its that easy.  

>It just annoys me that people can be so understanding towards 
>prostitution but not the plight of an underpaid secretary.

People aren't so understanding towards prostitution.  For every 
understanding person you will find more not so understanding people!  
The same with your underpaid secretary situation.  I am sure you have 
met people who understand what you are talking about, too.

>Actually, *I* think prostitution should be legal to stop the 
>exploitation but I still can't really understand how anybody can do 
>it.

As long as you don't have to do it, I don't think you need to bother 
with understanding why others do.  Everyone is different and have 
different reasons for doing what they do.

    If anyone wants to tackle the mill/children topic would you
    please start a new note for it?  Thankyou

    I've been thinking about this, and haven't come up with any clear
    conclusion.
    
    I think it should be legal for several reasons.  Safety for both
    the prostitute and the customer.  The prostitute should not be a
    free and easy target for abuse.  Neither should the customer be
    open for robbery.  Legalizing it would give both people some legal
    recourse during/after these occurrences.  Another would be safety
    from disease (better than it is now).  If prostitutes were tested
    frequently for various diseases, a customer would have a better
    chance of not getting something.  Also, if it were legalized and
    regulated, a legal minimum age (18?  21?) could be established,
    and the unlicensed 13 year olds could be removed from the street
    and put into a healthier environment.  I also think it should be
    legal because I dislike government intervention and regulation except
    where it is absolutely necessary.  I do think that prostitution
    should be limited to houses of prostitution and call girls.  Street
    walking should probably remain illegal, if for no other reason,
    non-prostitutes get hassled by would-be Johns.
    
    On the other hand, it has been shown to be somewhat of a feminist
    issue (you can't live on your secretarial wages?  Just get a job
    as a prostitute).  Also, if it was a legal, recognized profession,
    people could be forced into it economically, such as if offered
    a job as a prostitute at equal or higher wages than your former
    job, you would either have to take it or lose unemployment insurance.
    If some welfare reforms are made (workfare), women could be forced
    into either becoming prostitutes or losing their welfare.  I don't
    want anyone becoming a prostitute except out of choice.
                                                   
    I do think that pimping should be illegal.  From everything I've
    seen/heard/read, these people are the scum of the earth.  Especially
    those who (as .55's relative) victimize children.
    
    Elizabeth

    Re .63  Prostitution as workfare ? I think the Republican Party
    would choke on that one. Then again, so would the Democrats. 
    Might be the best thing that ever happened to the political
    system :-)
    
    Seriously, there is a considerable difference between de-crimi-
    nalizing prostitution and making it an 'honorable' profession.
    As with any other 'victimless' crime, the hard part is keeping
    it truly victimless. The copout solution is total illegalization,
    which is where we stand today. All too often the only politically
    tenable solution. 
    
    Tangent : Has anyone else read "The Rainbow Cadenza" by J.Neil
    Schulman ? About a future society where instead of drafting men
    to fight they draft women to make love. 

    re .64  First I'd find out which sex is most interested in
            express a compassionate Love to the other one. I would
            then Act upon that info and have the less loving sex be
            introduced to the more loving sex. How might that be 
            done? I suppose someone would have to ask. . . . . :-)
    
                                                 in brotherhood,
                                                                Russ

    
    RE .51 > Men doing it so good..not having to pay for it.
    
          Some men actually fall into this category.   ;-)

    This topic provoked so many thoughts as I read through the 60+
    responses. Will try to gather a few...
    
    I have thought it should be legalized and think so even more after
    reading through these notes.  But the general theme is toward female
    prostitues.  I see a lot of lonely frustrated middle-and older aged
    women who could probably be a lot better off paying for sex than
    picking some guy up at a bar because it has been "so long...".
    "Looking for Mr.Goodbar"?
    
    I would go with the aged limit however.  Perhaps if brothels were
    legalized, at least other duties, housework, etc.. could be assigned
    when they are confronted with a runaway looking for work.  I know
    control on this would be difficult, but fake ideas and lying are
    done in many areas beside prostitution and will always occur.
    
    As far as working five days a week for DEC,and DEC not getting
    inside my body, etc.  Well I hate to have to go back through what
    my body went through when I switched to third shift for DEC.  The
    act that prostitutes perform comes a lot more naturally, believe
    me!  And I guess I sold myself to them for the additional 15 percent!
    Now if I could only work out of my home!......:-)
    
                                   cj
    
    p.s.
    I will take this time to remind you I am not FSLENG::HEFFERN.
    I am DECXPS::CJACQUES.  

    
    "Prostitution: A Quartet for Female Voices" by Kate Millet
    
    

RE: .38

"I cannot support prositution.  I belive that in supporting the legalization of
prositution one is accepting the assumption that sex is and should be a
commodity.  Women's bodies are therefore transformed into commodities that are
bought and sold."

Nobody specifically said *"Women's"* bodies only...

"I believe that the issue of "choice" is a red herring, who will define "choice"
and what would the parameters be?"

For many it is not a choice... but some do choose it, or *make* it necessary
for themselves...

1. Yes, I have to agree that that might incline a female toward prostitution,
   but I still believe such a female has free will.

2. I have a difficulty imagining in MA a normal unskilled female not earning
   enough money to feed herself.  Not being able to afford housing (severe
   poverty) I can imagine, having been in that situation myself.  But I did not
   end up a prostitute, why should a female? That is still a choice.

3. I don't see how this lessens a female's choice for/against prostitution.

4. I don't see how this applies...

5. I don't understand this at all...  what does "women's responsibility"
   have to do with it?

6. This revolves around back to your original compliant against prostitution,
   the concept of sex being a commodity.  Why list it twice?

7. One might say "All Women are Whores" as accurately as one might say "All Men
   are Johns".  Clearly neither is true.  The many (majority?) of people have
   other reasons for giving/recieving sex, and financially supporting another
   person.

I would have to say that I feel that legalizing prostitution would tend to make
'a choice which should not have to be made', a choice; such that people might
tend to say, 'You're not so bad off, you can always be a prostitute...' Yech!
Sort of like telling a leg amputee that they can always hop...

RE: .42

Perhaps that is what I am trying to say, but there is more I would say...

RE: .44

I tend to think of purchasing prostitution as being worse then selling
prostitution. 

RE: .46

Haven't you ever heard of "an artist prostituting their art"?

"A prostitute is bartering in something far more personal, something that's
ordinarily "meant" to be used to procreate or to express love."

I agree with you, but it still sounds pretty circular...  If you define it
personal you define it personal, if you define it commercial, you define it
commercial...

RE: .55 Anon

Thank you for telling us what it was like for you...

RE: .58

perhaps the laws do contribute...  I find the laws silly in any event...

RE: .63 economically/* forced

I've know people to have the opinion that if you didn't have any job skills that
you should go in the Armed Forces... would you say that such a choice is forced?
Is this similiar to prostitution in the economically/* forced issue?

Jim.