Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    I gave my wife a list (Blouse, sweater, skirt, dress, ring, shoe,
    I forget what else) and asked her to write down what her size was
    for each. Seems to work ok. The other thing I did (since I'm so
    bad at picking things out) is to ask her to look through her
    favorite store catalog. Next to every item she liked I asked her
    to write her size and preferred colour. This way I could pick some
    subset and be pretty sure of getting the right size/style/colour
    without her knowing exactly what she is getting.
    
    			Alfred

    I like Alfred's first suggestion (keep an up-to-date list of sizes).
    Another idea is to go to stores that accept returns or exchanges. Keep
    the labels in a separate envelope. After all, you've just said that you
    want to pick out something wonderful yourself. Oh. Another idea. Ask
    salespeople about the clothes you do pick out. A good question to ask
    is: "Do the sizes on this label tend to run big or small?" You can
    often get helpful hints (including pointers to other things you
    might like, information about reliability and ease-of-care of certain
    garments, etc.) 
    
    good luck and enjoy
    liz 
        

	If you think it's bad trying to buy a gift for a woman,
	think how bad women have it trying to buy clothes for
	themselves.  :-)

	Anyways, I find sweaters an easy gift.  They don't
	have to be as accurate in size to still look well.  Make
	sure you save any receipts for whatever you buy, just
	in case.

	...Karen

    You can get sizes of the woman (bust, waist, hips, height, etc.)
    but with the way women's clothing manufacturers work, knowing that
    a particular woman wears a size 12 won't do you much good, since
    they differ so much between manufacturers.  For example, I measure
    to be a 16, but can wear anything between a 10 and 20, depending
    on who made the garment where.  Shoes run about the same way.  I
    agree with .2 who suggested asking the sales people about how the
    sizes in particular lines run.  There are differences between country
    to country.  Beware, that some manufacturers (and styles) don't
    make *any* size that will fit a particular woman - too tight in
    the hips, too loose in the waste.
    
    This isn't fair.  Men's clothing manufacturers seem more consistant.
    If I know my SO wears a 15 1/2 shirt, I can buy *any* 15 1/2 shirt,
    and it will fit.  It is actually easier to buy a surprise gift of
    clothing for a man who is not there than it is to buy something
    for myself.  I often have to try on numerous sizes (sometimes styles),
    to find one that will fit. 
    
    I have an idea though.  The way the current style in sweaters goes,
    they are just *so* big, if the woman is at all a resonable size,
    almost any sweater (sm - lg) should fit ok.  
    
    Elizabeth
    

    My SO ran into this problem during the summer.  I gave him my height,
    weight, and usual size for top and bottom.  He got really confused.
    HOWEVER, the saleslady and he found the perfect outfit for me. 
    He said she was so helpful.  The outfit fit perfectly, and flattered
    me. So, ask for help when you're in a department store.  Salespeople
    are usually happy to help you find "something special".  (oh.
    salespeople in Massachusetts may not be so helpful...) 

    All of the suggestions are terrific!  For some sick, twisted,
    bizarre reason, I've never had problems buying clothes for women.
    However, I think I can explain why there is such variation among
    clothing manufacturers.  I might have some details bass-end-
    ackward, but this is how my late mother, who was one terrific
    seamstress, explained it to me: 
    
    Each manufacturer cuts cloth using a master pattern, or "sloper."
    A pattern may be laid on a stack of cloth that's three feet high.
    When the clothing is cut, the pieces of cloth at the bottom tend
    to slip, thus, the clothing at the top of the sloper tends to be
    true to size, and the further down you go, the further out of size
    the clothing gets.  At the bottom of the pile, the pieces could
    be a good deal larger or smaller than the ones on top.
    
    In addition, each manufacturer has her/his own idea of what each size 
    should measure.  I read in a magazine article that one
    manufacturer, I think it was Anne Klein, bases its size 12 on a
    39-inch bust, a 30-inch waist, and 40-inch hips.  Something like
    that, I'm sure that I don't have the exact dimensions correct. 
    But you get the idea.  
    
    Not only that, but tall women (5'8" and up) and petite women (5'4
    on down) have their own special problems of fit and proportion.
    Occasionally too, you'll find that a woman of average size has long
    arms and/or legs, so she might find herself in a size 14 blouse
    instead of a size 12, just to get the extra inch or so in the 
    sleeves.
    
    BTW, I got a good chuckle out of the comment in 568.6 about 
    Massachusetts salespeople.  How true...but I've got one about
    a salesperson at Woodward & Lothrop in Washington, D.C., that will
    curl your hair.
    
    Happy clothes shopping, everyone!
    
    Kate

    Jim, it also helps to look at some of the woman's clothes when she
    is not wearing them.  Find a skirt, blouse, dress and sweater that
    fit her very well, and look at them when she is not wearing them.
    It sounds strange, but it really does help you "see" the clothes
    on the hangers more accurately.
    
    Good luck.  Find out if there is a particular line that she likes
    to buy, too.  It never hurts.
    
    

    It would sure help if women's clothing sizes meant something other
    than the relative size, the way men's sizes in the US do.  My SO
    wears a 15 1/2 - 32 shirt, which means that the neck is 15 1/2 inches
    around and the sleeve is 32 inches, measured from the middle of
    the back of the neck to the end of the cuff.  I wear a 14T, 16T,
    or 18T (tall size) and have to try it on to be sure.  My mother
    sent me a beautiful "extra-large" sweater, which I ended up giving
    away to my SO's kid sister, who must average out to a size 8 or
    so.  Shoes sizes in the US don't mean much more than relative size,
    either - I have shoes that range from a 9 1/2 to a 12, and they
    all fit perfectly!  It's really a shame in that I really do not
    enjoy shopping at all, especially for clothing, and would love to
    mail order more of my clothes than I do, except that when I do I
    end up sending the stuff back several times until they send me a
    size that fits right.  Sigh.
    
    /Charlotte
    

    Jewelry is always appropriate (especially diamonds)_:-)

    .10 is absolutely right, but don't restrict yourself to diamonds!!

    RE: .10, .11 Jewelry is *not* always appropriate. Some people
    don't wear it very often or at all. Why buy something that will
    sit in a box for ever?
    
    		Alfred

    I think what they *really* meant is that jewelry is always appropriate
    for *them*.  I know lots of people who don't wear jewelry, but real
    gold, silver, and gems are always appropriate for *me*.  :-)
    
                        Carol

    But Alfred,
    Just because a woman doesn't *wear* jewelry doesn't make it
    inappropriate.  She can always sell it if she needs to some day.
    Isn't that what engagement rings are for?_:-)  
    Mary

    To digress a little. The last major "sizing" of America was
    done during WW2. Needless to say more data was gathered on men
    than women.
    
    Also women's clothes have always changed rapidly in terms of style,
    fashion etc while men's changed but much more slowly-especially
    in the "business suit".
    
    The data gathered during WW2 is still in use in terms of women's
    sizes but women were smaller,shorter and not so well developed than.
    Manufacturer's of clothing readily admit sizing to a market.
    Thus Anne Klein is generous while Bobbie Brooks is junior etc.
    
    Also in terms of "quality"-sloping and many other manufacturing
    processess can change the size of clothing but quality manufacturers
    miminize these to remain consistent.
    
    So -find a brand that fits and stick with it until the manufacturer
    changes  internal standards or the body changes.
    
    Metric would help in this instance i.e., a 42 is a 42 in metric
    but a 12 is not a 12 in American sizes.
    

    I've often bought men's sweaters for women friends (so long as
    you're looking for something basically "sweatery" and not crocheted
    or lacy) - the prices are often more reasonable, and S-M-L is
    much easier to deal with than 32,34,36, etc.
    
    --DE
    

    Some clothing trivia--I read recently that sizes are shrinking--really!
    The average manufacturers' size 12 in 1970, for example, was quite a
    bit larger than the average size 12 today.  Another ploy to make
    us emaciate ourselves!  "I'm going to get back into size 10 if it
    kills me..."
    
    I have also noticed that, as a rule, more expensive or well-made
    (not always synonymous, I realize) clothes tend to run larger than
    cheaper clothing.  For example, I generally wear a 12, but if I
    buy a particularly expensive piece of clothing, a 10 is usually
    plenty large enough.  How much are you willing to pay to feel slim?
    
    -Tracy
       

    And how come larger sizes are called "half sizes"?
    

RE: .17

I was told size 10-12, but size *8* if it is quality clothing.  I attributed
that to the better tailoring allows a woman to fit into a smaller size...

Jim.

    I don't know why they're called half sizes, but a half size fit my
    Grandmother's hour-glass-shaped but rather short-waisted torso
    perfectly.  She was also a tiny woman and had a difficult time finding
    a manufacturer of 12�'s -- half sizes more commonly start at 14�.
    I think it has more to do with torso length, measured in two directions
    -- neck or shoulders to waist, and waist to crotch.  I think this
    sizing scheme takes into account the "shrinking" of women's torso's
    as they get older, due to the effect of osteoporosis in the spine
    (never thought about it before, but it makes sense to me).
                                                              
    The differences I've noticed between the even-numbered "misses"
    sizes (4,6,8,10, etc) and the odd-numbered "petite" (aka "junior petite")
    sizes is in the difference in the "rise", or length from waist to
    crotch -- misses are longer.  Misses seem also to be longer in the
    limbs, generally.  I've got short limbs, so almost all jeans and
    some shirts are too long...
    
    CQ

    A very very good point brought forward by note 568.16. I never thought
    about buying men's sweaters for females. Must say it would be cheaper
    and they would love to wear the clothing . My female friend is always
    got my close on......
    
    	What a shame I never thought of that. It would have saved me
    heaps of money..... 
    
    		Thanks for the offer.
    

    buying men's sweaters for women can work for an appropriately shaped
    woman. i find that my torso is a little short (though my shoulders
    are broad enough) to wear most men's sweaters comfortably. it also
    depends on the heaviness of the fabric and how your friend likes
    to wear her clothes (tightly fitted? loose?)
    
    good luck
    liz

    Re .4
    
>    This isn't fair.  Men's clothing manufacturers seem more consistant.
>    If I know my SO wears a 15 1/2 shirt, I can buy *any* 15 1/2 shirt,
>    and it will fit.  It is actually easier to buy a surprise gift of
>    clothing for a man who is not there than it is to buy something
>    for myself.  I often have to try on numerous sizes (sometimes styles),
>    to find one that will fit. 

    Men *do* have just as much of a problem (at least, I do). I take a 14
    1/2 shirt but some are loose at the neck, some I can't do up at all.
    Then again, a shirt which fits me at the neck sometimes is the size of
    a tent or alternatively, a sock. Trousers (pants) come in all manner of
    sizes (but all described as the same), just like womens clothes. 
                                      
    At the end of the day, it is probably just a conspiracy to get us
    to try on a larger number of garments, with the result being that
    we buy more than we had intended !

    Jon 
    
    (who hopes that Christmas doesn't bring me the usual crop of socks
    and pullovers that don't fit)

    re .23 All 14 1/2's are not created equal - there are straight cut,
    taper cut, and full cut. Then there are sleeves, some 15 1/2's have
    33" sleeves, some have 34", some large shirts (42-44) seem to have
    extra short sleeves. It simply isn't simple. 90 percent of large
    shirts (my size) have sleeves too short. 

    
    Many years ago I had the pleasure of spending a few days with a
    Vietnamese woman.  Her clothes were fabulous.  It wasn't that the
    fabric or the style were out of the ordinary; they were nice but
    nothing special.  It was the way they fit.  I had never seen clothing
    that fit a person so well.
    
    So I asked her.  She explained that in her country one goes to a
    tailor or dressmaker.  The tailor makes a muslin pattern and fits
    it to the person exactly.  All subsequent clothing one orders is
    made from one's personal pattern.
    
    Why don't we do this more in this country?  Is tailor-made clothing
    priced much higher than quality off-the-rack clothing?  Does anyone
    have any experience with this?
    
    Does anyone know if a tailor can work from a person's *exact*
    measurements without seeing the person to do a fitting?  What a
    lovely gift that would make - something made to your order for your
    special someone, something made expressly for *them*.
    
    Rita
    

Re: .23 CHEFS::JMAURER    
    
>        Jon     
>    (who hopes that Christmas doesn't bring me the usual crop of socks
>    and pullovers that don't fit)

    
    But I've already done my Christmas shopping ! 

    Rita, I'm pulling this out of a hat, but I'd be willing to bet that
    having one's clothes custom-tailored would be incredibly expensive.
    
    Personally, I *love* the idea of just calling someone and saying
    "Make me n blice [plural of blouse ;-)] and x slacks from the 
    patterns you have". But A) you'd probably have to go to Boston
    to find somebody and B)AS I said, I think the price would be
    prohibitive. I saw an ad for custom-made women's slacks, and I think
    they were $40 a pair about 5 years ago...
                                                                   
    Dawn
    

    another way to save money is that i buy alot of my clothes in the
    childrens department.
    now this only works if you are short
    a womans size 5/6  can wear a girls 12 - 14
    i also go to to boys department

    re: .27
    
    Dawn, even if that $40/pair price had nearly doubled in the last
    five years, I am not sure that would be all that expensive.
    
    Consider that about two weeks ago I went to buy slacks.  I went
    to Marshall's.  I tried on *20* pair.  I found two that fit and
    were what I wanted.  Nothing out of the ordinary, one red demin pair,
    one jade green brushed corduroy (sp?).  I left the store tired,
    frustrated, and about $65 poorer.  And that was at a *discount*
    store.  I consider my time to be valuable, and it might have been
    less expensive (at least psychologically :-) to call up, order them,
    and spend $100-$150 (which I might have spent at a non-discount
    store like Filene's anyway).
    
    Of course, you're probably right about having to go to Boston...sigh,
    and I guess if you count the $$ I'd spend on parking tickets, auto
    repairs from fender benders, etc... oh well...
    
    Anyone have a good tailor in the Metro West?
    
    Rita

    The nice thing about the sizing of men's shirts is that they actually
    tell you what the size _is_.  Most come labelled not only as to
    neck size, but sleeve length and type of cut as well.  Whereas with
    a woman's shirt, only the manufacturer knows what the size means. 
    I've had four different sizes living in my closet at once.
    
    The quality seems to be better too.  I never have to restitch seams
    in a man's shirt that I've just bought.
     
    Karen (who buys men's shirts and men's sweaters for herself, because
    clothing manufacturers think women have itty-bitty narrow shoulders,
    and itty-bitty short arms)
    

    
    
    	Liz , 
    
    	I think all girl's would like to wear loose clothes ???? , The
    	heaviness would not really matter. Although ski pants would
    	have to be tight . 
    
    	Liz What is your view on ski pants ??????. Do you think they
    	are worth buying for a female , I mean how would I now what
    	size to buy ????. 
    
    
    
    		Peter.. 

    peter,
    first, i assume you're talking about women, not extremely young
    females? * in any case, if you look around, you'll notice that some
    women wear extremely loose clothing and others prefer more form-fitting
    togs. ski pants are a tough one (because you do need the fit to
    be extremely good). two suggestions: buy something that you can
    return. or give your giftee (?) a certificate redeemable for one pair
    of ski pants (and say that you'll accompany her on the shopping trip).
    going shopping together, especially after christmas, can be pretty
    pleasant. it can even be spent as "quality time", as one noter put
    it.
    
    enjoy
    liz
        
    
    * insert cute winky face

    RE: ski pants
    
    There is a a variety of "ski pants" extant these days. Do you want
    just stretchy ski pants? Or stretchy bibbers? Or maybe nylon/poly
    stuffed bibbers? Or maybe just the pants? Or maybe a one-piece
    suit? Do you want to mortgage your house to pay for same? Maybe
    Head ski wear fits better than White Stag....
    
    For this stuff, it's best to have a) the body in question with you,
    or b) the *exact* description of the item wanted. (Oh yeah...
    c)LOTS of green pictures of dead U.S. presidents)
    
    :-)
    
    --DE
    

    re -1  That's funny..... :-)
    
    Cathy (who prefers nylon to spandex - if you fall, you slide down
    those slopes)

    I have to agree that womens clothes vary according to who manufactured
    them.   I wear a 16 in blouses and dresses if bought in places like
    j.c penny, sears, etc.  But I can wear a 12 if bought in Filenes
    or Jordan Marsh. Slacks and skirts vary too.  I'm thrilled when
    I can wear smaller size clothes helps to stay on the diet.
    
    My husband has a card to fit in his wallet with all my sizes on
    it. From shoes to dresses and gloves. Perfume favorites and color
    favorites.   At christmas we exchange lists of "wishes" and also
    put down pages in catalogs where we have made notations of wishes.
    It's fun. Our children to the same. So when the open a gift they
    are surprised at what they got, but *not* surprised  at the size
    or color. It's always right and no returns, YEAH!
    
    Barbara
    

    I have worked part time in a major department store for the past
    10 years. We have just been thru another gift giving season, and
    I can't understand why people insist on buying gifts of clothing
    when they have no idea of sizes.  Maybe getting older has made me
    more out spoken, but this year I really got angry with people who
    came to me and said "How do I know what size to by my aunt Jane."
    I said "Ask her what size she wears" Then I am looked at like I'm
    from another planet. 
    Let me tell you some of the things that happen.  People come in
    and buy something off the sale rack on it's third markdown, cut
    off all the tags and give it as a gift .  They usually tell the
    reciever that it is from say Jordan Marsh, because no size information
    was concidered the item is returned.  We end up with an irate customer
    because 1. we have to look up the item in the SKU book by manufacturer
    since all the tickets have been removed (not just the price) and
    this can take considerable time.  2. The item has had two more mark
    downs since you purchased it and is now priced at $5.99 instead
    of the $20.99 that you paid or the $60 original price. We get yelled
    at, cursed at, threatened with everything under the sun, because
    "My friend wouldn't give me a gift for $5.99". They want the $60
    original price.  This is just one example of the "Happy Holidays".
    I strongly suggest, If you don't what size to get, either ask the
    person or buy something that isn't sized, like a gift certificate.
    

    re .36
    People not knowing what approximate size to buy in the first place
    is certainly a problem, but it is separate problem from the wide
    variations in what different clothing manufacturers consider a size
    to be.  My mother-in-law lives near a very good "tall girl" store
    (OK, it's a funny name, but I didn't name these places, and you
    all know what I mean) which I like to visit when we are visiting
    her, but it is an hour and half drive from where we live.  She would
    love to be able to go in there and buy things for me when they are
    having a sale, but what size should I tell her?  I have nice,
    well-fitting clothing from there (it is REALLY good store for women
    of my height, and not nearly as expensive as the not-so-good one
    that is closer to where I live) in sizes 12T, 14T, 16T, and 18T
    - all of which fit me and which were made by different manufacturers.
    Shoes are even worse: I have comfortable, well-fitting shoes that
    are sizes 9 1/2, 10, 10 1/2, 11, and 12 (most shoe stores in New
    England only carry women's shoes up to size 10, unless you go to
    s specialty store - after all, I wouldn't balance on my feet very
    well if I had to carry around my just-under-six-feet body on size
    6 feet, right?).  The only thing Paul's mother can be sure of is
    that there is probably no point in buying me size 6 shoes when they
    are on sale, or a size 20T dress, because the odds are against them
    fitting me, but what about size 10 shoes or a size 14T dress?  Iffy!

    <--(.37)
    
    So where are these good stores [she asks plaintively]?

    re .38 Where the "tall" stores are located.
    
    I don't know where you live, so this may not be of great use, but:
    
    The good one is "Barbara's Talls", in West Hartford, CT - not near
    me at all, as I said, but Paul's mother lives in West Hartford,
    so very near her.  They have a branch in the Springfield, Mass.,
    area which I have never visited - not close and not near anywhere
    else I am ever going.  The not-so-good one is "Kelly's", in Shopper's
    World - they are *VERY* expensive, and don't have much of a selection
    to boot.  Neither one carries shoes, but there is a "tall girl shoe
    store" (not positive of the name) near the Boston Common - I think
    it is on Summer Street or one block either side of it.  It is on
    the far end of the block if you are walking away from the Common,
    on the right side of the street, on the second floor.    I used
    to sew all my own clothes when I was in high school, but I don't
    have time for that these days, and don't tend to wear the same sorts
    of clothes that were easy to make - anyhow, my sewing machine is
    broken and has been for several months (I don't use it very often
    and so haven't scrounged up the time to figure out exactly what
    is wrong with the bobbin tension mechanism so that I can order the
    parts to get it running again).
                  
    Hope this helps....
    
    /Charlotte

    Thanks, Charlotte.  West Hartford, hmmmm...  maybe on the way to
    NYC next time.
    
    						=m

    Maggie and Charlotte,
    
    You may want to check out the 16-Plus shops in both the Billerica
    Mall in Billerica and the SearsTown Mall in Leominster (and maybe
    other locations?).  While shopping this weekend, I noticed that
    their selections were considerably nicer than the shops that sell
    my size (just shy of 5').  If you're a size 5/6 to 11/12, be prepared
    this season for manufacturers who seem to think that you only want
    to wear clingy knit miniskirts and have no hips!
    
    Rita
    

    Rita, you are a good example of good things that come in small
    packages!  I don't think I wore a size 5 when I *WAS* 5... I'll
    have to check these places out if I am nearby - I'm not much of
    a shopper and would happily buy all my clothing mail-order except
    that it is a big nuisance to keep sending back stuff that is too
    short, too wide, or not the color the picture of it is!  When I
    do do clothing shopping, I start out in the 16-Tall rack and see
    where I end up from there.  Paul is kind enough to hang around near
    the changing room where he can trot the too-big sweater back and
    return with one from the 14T rack, and replace the too-tight slacks
    with the 18T version, until I end up with clothing (if I am lucky...).
    I'll have to check out if the "16+" place has clothing that is longer
    or just bigger around - unless the article in question is pretty
    shapeless or very stretchy (like a leotard or something), bigger
    around doesn't work real well as a substitute for long enough: a
    short, wide blouse is still too big around my chest with sleeves
    that are too short to button the cuffs of, etc.

    Charlotte,
    
    Well, all the clothes looked pretty long to me, but then most of
    the stuff in other shops looks pretty long to me ;-)
    
    Grins,
    Rita
    

    Well, folks, look, but don't get your hopes up too high!  16 Plus
    carries clothes in those sizes 16 and up, and the stock does not
    include TALL sizes - I've looked!  I have found some nice-looking,
    reasonably priced stuff at J.C. Penney's Catalog Outlet Store on 3A in
    Billerica.  It's sort of a hit-or-miss place, sometimes they have
    things, sometimes they don't, but I have gotten some nice things. 
    Aslo, SEars catalog on rare occasions produces some nice clothing.
    Sigh!!!!  All those over 5' 7" should unite and demand clothes stores
    in this area!!!!

    I thought the "over-5'9" crowd had it tough...til I met the
    woman in my night class who is 6'6" !
    
    BTW - Richard's Shoes in Boston used to sell large (over 10)
    sizes. And then there "Tall Gals" shoes in Norwell - they sell
    nothing UNDER size 10!
    
    Richard's is indeed in the Summer/Winter St. area - on Washington,
    I think, but in that ballpark, anyway....
    
    --DE
    

    Yes, I think it is called "Richard's Shoes" - most people know enough
    to never ask me for directions....I can never remember the names
    of places, especially streets (usually I can't *SEE* the street
    names, unless I am right on top of the sign, as nearsighted as I
    am).
    
    I went to high school with two girls who were both 6'2" - that's
    three inches taller than I was/am.   

Maggie is someone you can 'look up to'! (in both senses :-)) 

On the other hand, Rita is *not* someone to look down on... :-)

Jim.