Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    OK, I've been meaning to ask this before, but never remembered
    to ask when I was in the conference.
    
    I noticed when reading the odd reply in the topic about what
    women carried in their pocketbooks, some mentioned "essentials",
    including in that august category cosmetics.
    
    Rare is the time I have seen any women who looked better for
    having used make-up. The exceptions are mostly (if not exclusively)
    women with very pale skin who added some color to their skin. For
    me, make-up is almost always a turn-off. Sometimes, make-up is so
    skillfully and sparingly applied that I don't notice it with only
    a casual glance. My rule of thumb is: if I notice she's wearing
    make-up, she's wearing too much.
    
    So, those of you women who use make-up, why?
    
    Note: I'm not asking you to "defend" yourself, I am just curious
    about a practice that seems to me to be nothing more than madness
    without method.
    
    --- jerry

    Re .0, .1, I find myself feeling very impatient with both of you.
    
    First of all, half an hour in front of a mirror doesn't specify
    make-up.  A woman could be blow-drying her hair, brushing her teeth,
    too.  
    
    We all know that it is the custom in our society for women to wear
    make-up and for men not to wear make-up.  It is also the custom
    in our society for women to be valued for being beautiful.  Therefore,
    many women have seen fit to apply make-up to make themselves appear
    more beautiful.  Is it really that difficult to understand? 
    
    It's part of playing the game.  Doors open for women who don't look
    like sh*t, so it pays to try to *not* look like shit.  Got it?
    
    Lorna
    

    didn't we already discuss this issue a while back?
    
    liz

    There's a widespread stereotype about women spending a great deal
    of time in front of the mirror, but it truth I suspect it varies
    widely with age, social class, occupation, and possibly even being
    in or out of a relationship.
    
    When I was in junior high school my friends and I spent a great
    deal of time agonizing over our looks in front of the mirror.  We
    also did a lot of experimenting with various hairstyles and makeup.
    It's not surprising considering that teenagers are constantly evaluated
    on the basis of their looks; most of them are not yet in stable
    long-term relationships where they can feel accepted; and they often
    have more social than occupational choices and rewards.
    
    Now I brush my teeth in front of the mirror (3 minutes), run a brush
    through my hair after a shower (2 minutes), and glance at the mirror
    at work on the way out of the rest room to make sure that my skirt
    isn't halfway up to my neck, or I haven't started looking like
    something the cat dragged in since I last looked.  It probably totals
    out to somewhere around 8 minutes a day.
                                
    Most of my friends my age use mirrors mainly for reassurance that
    nothing visually embarrassing has happened since they last looked!
                                                                     
    Holly

re: < Note 562.2 by APEHUB::STHILAIRE "you may say I'm a dreamer" >

� Is it really that difficult to understand? 
  
I always found it very difficult to understand.
  
�    It's part of playing the game.  Doors open for women who don't look
�    like sh*t, so it pays to try to *not* look like shit.  Got it?
    
I disagree, I've never worn make-up and have walked thru many a door in 
my day. I'd hate to think I'd have to wear make-up to get ahead. You don't
have to play the silly game if you don't want to. 

Jenna

    Re .5, perhaps you are very academically intelligent and because
    of this you have secured jobs, such as engineer, because of this.
     Unlike marketing, product management, sales, or even secretarial
    or receptionist positions, management really doesn't care what
    engineers look like as long as you sit in the labs and design the
    stuff they want.  Perhaps you are lucky to have found this niche.
     But, I'll bet there are other doors you haven't walked through
    because you haven't played the game - maybe some of them didn't
    matter to you - maybe some of them you have convinced yourself didn't.
     
    We all use the advantages we have to get what we want in this world.
     If you have gotten everything you've wanted without having your
    appearance play a part, you're very fortunate.
    
    (It occurs to me sometimes reading this file that a bunch of female
    engineers may not represent the feelings and concerns of the majority
    of the women in America, but so be it.  We have to work with what
    we've got :-)  )
    
    Lorna
    

    I carry "cosmetics" in my purse.  Three lipsticks: red, pink, brown.
    Liquid foundation.  I use the lipsticks to keep from vanishing
    into the wallpaper.  I use the foundation (sometimes) to hide flaws.
    I spend more time in front of the mirror putting in my contact lenses.
    
    Now for a theory:
    
    Sociologists studied the use of a mirror in a public place (department
    store?).  Both men and women looked at themselves in it, but there
    was a difference in their use.
    
    Men seemed pleased with what they saw, and so passed on quickly.
    Women seemed displeased with what they saw, and so stayed longer
    to correct the "problem".
    
    So, we could (if we were feeling mischievous) say that men spend so
    little time in front of mirrors because they are complacent and
    self-satisfied (This phrase begs to end in "monsters of egotism"),
    and women spend so much time there because they are not.
    
    					Ann B., extrapolating wildly
					from insufficient data.

    I have not got what one would call a beautiful face.  But, what
    I do have and what I've worked on for a long time is my self-worth.
    It all began with finding out who I was, then looking even deeper
    into my soul to gather more information about myself.  Each day,
    I learn more about myself.  Now added to that, I wear makeup.  My
    skin is pale and without makeup, I look washed out.  Wearing makeup
    helps me to feel better about myself.  Along with feeling good inside
    I feel attractive all around.  
    
    Now, I don't give a darn "who" doesn't like it or who gets turned
    off by my wearing makeup.  It's me who's important here, not what
    anyone else thinks.
    
    Charlene

    In my early teens I reveled in makeup - so much so that I almost
    majored in cosmetology.  It made me feel like I looked better, like
    a well-frosted cake.  
    
    I spend my time in front of the mirror brushing my teeth and trying
    to make my needle-straight hair DO something...or at least keep
    it out of my eyes.  
    
    Makeup bothers my skin now.  I am allergic to perfume.  Sometimes
    people look at me funny when I have circles under my eyes - but
    so-be-it.  I will put on make-up for a special evening out...earrings,
    too.  
    
    I have been thinking a lot...and I get the distinct feeling that
    the males of the human species are far more similar to the males
    of other species of animal.  They are the peacocks.  For aeons,
    men wore the earrings and the fancy clothing.  They showed off to
    attract the women, and to make a social comment on their station
    in life.  My SO has lovely brown/auburn hair that is thick and curly
    and below his shoulders.  His lashes are so thick that they would 
    make many women and some horses weep.  His lips are full, his skin 
    faintly blushed...sigh.  Honestly I don't know when the conversion 
    went to emphasizing the looks of women from emphasizing the looks of 
    men.  Probably had something to do with the scientific and industrial
    revolution.  
    
    And I never worry about whether my skirts are stuck in the back
    of my pantyhose - the solution is simple - I don't wear them.  
    
    -Jody
    

re:< Note 562.7 by APEHUB::STHILAIRE "food, shelter & diamonds" >
 
 �    But, I'll bet there are other doors you haven't walked through
 �    because you haven't played the game - maybe some of them didn't
 �    matter to you - maybe some of them you have convinced yourself didn't.
 
Nope, you're wrong. But I get the feeling you've convinced yourself that you
can't get anywhere without playing games.
    
�     If you have gotten everything you've wanted without having your
�     appearance play a part, you're very fortunate.
  
I'm not talking about overall appearance here. I'm talking about using make-up. 
Certainly there are jobs that require one to look respectable. But I don't think
one has to wear make-up to look respectable.
 
�    (It occurs to me sometimes reading this file that a bunch of female
�    engineers may not represent the feelings and concerns of the majority
�    of the women in America, but so be it.  We have to work with what
�    we've got :-)  )
    
Women are women, what's the difference?

Jenna

    
    I think most women are brought up thinking that if you don't wear
    make up, you don't look good.  Look in any women's magazine, tv
    commercials, etc.  Everywhere you look, there are cosmetic ads!
    
    When I was a teenager, one of the most exiting things that happened
    to me was when my mom showed me how to use make up.
    
    And, until recently, I actually believed all the crap thats thrown
    at women - I didn't think I looked good, unless I had my make up
    on.  What a lousy way to feel!!!!
    
    Thanks to partially to Rich (my SO), and my own self confidence
    (which has grown steadily since my divorce last year), I don't care 
    anymore.  As long as I'm clean, and my hair is combed, I know that I 
    look fine.   Once in a while, in the morning when I'm getting ready
    for work, I'll throw on some blush.  Other than that the only thing
    I use is chap stick.   (Okay, maybe about once a month I use some
    eye shadow. :-))
    
    Some women wear make up because they actually enjoy it, but
    unfortunatly, I think many more women wear it for the reason I used
    to.
    
    Bye, Y'all!
    
    Corinne
    

    

    Re: -several

    I tend to agree with Lorna that some jobs or career paths seem to
    require a greater attention to personal appearance than others.
    Marketing and sales are particularly obvious examples.  This applies
    to men and women.  Most of the men in these positions look like they
    spend more than just 30 minutes in front of the mirror making sure
    that their hair is perfect and all of the creases in their suits are
    straight  :^{).  Even in these positions makeup is not an absolute
    necessity for women but it is more frequently present than absent.

    I disagree with the idea that appearance has no effect in engineering.
    It may not mean much once you are in the department.  But, if you show
    up at an interview for a new job looking like a slob you can probably
    kiss the job goodbye.  Even engineering managers take it as a sign of
    respect that you show up wearing a suit and well groomed.

    As an afterthought, I still can't figure out why my wife spends 10-15
    minutes blow drying her hair when we are going to do construction
    work on our house  (I prefer the way it looks when "naturally" dried
    anyway  :^{).

    Dick

    Speaking of doors, I still remember one episode back in the days
    when men opened doors for women.  Our hero was walked past me, let
    the door swing back in my face, then _ turned_around_ and held the
    door open for a made-up, high-heeled secretary coming from the other
    direction.  (No, I don't wear makeup to attract someone like _that_.
     I just felt like sharing this tidbit with the world.)
    

    I'm a non-makeup-wearer who has taken considerable flak (mostly in
    college, and mostly from women!) for not wearing it. I never liked it.
    It felt awful, smelled funny, kept my skin away from the air, and
    rubbed off on things (like a guy's jacket - how embarrassing). It used
    to puzzle me no end why women would spend so much time and money to
    make themselves uncomfortable... (OK, so I was a little naive!) 
    
    I have since learned to consider makeup, along with "fashionable"
    clothing, jewelry, etc., as part of the costume that goes with certain
    jobs and/or social functions. Some people wear these costumes because
    they enjoy it; others, because they feel it is expected of them. Some
    choose to wear non-standard costumes, perhaps because they're "free
    souls," or perhaps because (like me) they are intolerant of discomfort.
    Some probably don't think about whichever mode they have chosen; it's
    "the way I do things". And that's all fine with me. The thing I hate
    about the question of dress/makeup/etc. is when people are coerced
    into doing things to themselves that they do not like.
    
    Regarding the "female engineer" issue: Yes, one of the main benefits
    (to me) of working here is the absence of a dress code. I spent several
    years working in college computer centers, and even though those jobs
    weren't terribly visible, there was pressure from the higher-ups to "be
    presentable", as in dresses and pearls. (Well, almost!) The freedom to
    not have to wear the "Working Woman of the '80s" costume means a great
    deal to me. 
    
    Now, I am quite certain that if I had to choose between wearing makeup
    or starving, I could manage to accept the makeup - along with the
    mental attitude, "OK, so we have to wear uniforms, including war paint;
    big deal." Since I dislike the feel of the stuff so much, not to
    mention the time it takes to apply, I might go so far as to prefer a
    lower-paying job that didn't require it to a well-paying job that did -
    but one's preferences are subject to change when the rent's overdue! 
    
    (By the way, my mirror-time is spent drying my hair and putting
    on my Chapstick - and, lately, checking for wrinkles...)
    
    -b

    As has been mentioned, makeup is not the only reason to use a mirror.
    Shellie wears makeup everyday, so uses the mirror for that as well
    as for other things, but I rarely wear makeup (takes too much time),
    so I use mirror time for my hair and clothes.  With long hair, there
    is a lot more to fix, and my hair is very long.  When I wear a dress
    then I want to make sure that my shoes match my outfit or that my
    blouse really does match well with my skirt.  With maternity clothes
    in winter, I want to make sure that the bottom layer of clothing
    is properly tucked in so that I don't look like I have a tumour
    on my backside.  In short, there are many things that may cause
    a woman to spend more time in front of a mirror other than applying
    makeup.
                    Carol

	I read in (I think) Dress for Success that business men are more
	likely to trust business women who did not wear eye makeup. Could
	this be the old double bind? They don't want us to look sexy if they
	have to depend on us in business and they don't want us to look
	plain if we want them to notice us as women.

	I spend a good portion ofmy mirror time putting in my contacts. This
	is the same reason I don't wear too much eye makeup anymore.

	To Lorna, you are very right that the technical women in this company
	are not anywhere close to the "average" woman. We make considerably
	more money and have much more freedom than women in more taditional
	fields. The average woman will have a peak salary of $25,000 and the
	average man $30,000. Most of us in this conference have already passed
	this and many are not at peak earnings. I'm almost ashamed when
	I run my bank account to near zero each week and then see what entire
	families try to live on. liesl

    re:.2
    
    Give me a break, Lorna. I *asked* a simple question:
    
    > So, those of you women who use make-up, why?
    
    I *also* put in:
    
    > Note: I'm not asking you to "defend" yourself, I am just curious
    > about a practice that seems to me to be nothing more than madness
    > without method.
    
    precisely to avoid getting a reaction like yours. Sheesh!
    
    You want communication and understanding between the sexes? Then
    stop getting on someone's case for asking a question. I am *not*
    attacking you or anyone else. I simply want to know. What's the
    problem with that?
    
    It *seems* to me that women wear make-up because they think that
    it makes them look attractive. I don't see anything wrong with
    wanting to look attractive, but in many cases (make-up being one
    of them), it's *my* opinion that the woman is making herself look
    *less* attractive by using it.
    
    (As to a couple of other replies, I said that I do understand that
    some women have pale skin and use make-up to add color.)
    
    The fact is that, yes, it does seem that it's a question of society's
    norms. I question this status quo. I would think you would want to
    also.
    
    --- jerry

    YES, Me too.  Why?
                           @L

    Jerry,
    
    I'm not a woman, can I answer your question anyway?
    
    I wear makeup to feel sexy. It makes me feel like I'm going to
    something special, that I'm making a special effort to look nice.
    It's like brushing my hair, or shaving. I've tried all sorts of
    makeup, and find that I like just a bit of jet black eyeliner on
    both upper and lower eyelids. I usually will only wear makeup to
    parties or to go dancing, and not always then. I have the added
    effect of feeling "naughty", since it's something that men aren't
    supposed to do, but I think that's secondary.
    
    I've occasionally worn makeup to work. Only women have ever noticed. I
    guess that makes it subtle enough to be OK? :-) Maybe the men were
    simply too embarrassed to say anything. (In case anyone missed the
    point here, the fact that Jerry, or any other man doesn't notice makeup
    doesn't mean that it's necessarily subtle, or OK. The point is, that by
    setting up standards for MEN to judge makeup by, he's helping to
    perpetuate the very situation he decries.) 
    
    It's taken me a long time to "accept" makeup. For a long time I
    felt the same way Jerry did. I used to hassle my sweetie unmercifully
    for wearing it. I still do sometimes... old habits die hard :-(
    I'm not sure what turned me around. Maybe it was the way she obviously
    enjoyed it and how it made her more confident in herself. Maybe
    it was her telling me to piss off :-). Some of it undoubtedly was
    me trying makeup for myself and deciding that *I* liked it. So it
    was either the old double standard or change your attitudes pronto!
    
    But what the hell, I've got to admit that I'm atypical. (Admit!? I
    *glory* in it.) I think I'll start carrying a "purse", my pockets
    aren't big enough for all my junk anymore... (especially if I start
    carrying cosmetics and a mirror around...)
    
    One thing I do agree with though. Wear cosmetics for yourself, not
    for some Madison Avenue ideal of what you should look like. Don't
    assume that everyone who wears makeup does it to please some man,
    or men, or is playing "the game"; don't assume everyone who doesn't
    is unconcerned about their appearance, or is unfeminine.
    
    	-- Charles
    
    P.S. I just bought some liquid eyeliner for the first time. Can
    anyone give me tips on how to use it? I'm almost incompetent with
    a pencil so I thought this might be easier to use...
    
    P.P.S. OH NO! Makeup tips in WOMANNOTES! Is this the beginning of
    the end? :-)

    
    	RE:  .22
    
    	Al, I can assure you that Charles is not kidding around (and
    	is an *extremely* well-liked and appreciated member of this
    	conference and others.)
    
    	As far as makeup goes, a person wears it or doesn't wear it (accord-
    	ing to what that particular individual feels comfortable with)
    	whether or not you (or anyone else) happens to think it is
    	attractive and/or advisable.
    
    	Just as some here have said that women shouldn't *wear* makeup
    	just because some_men/Madison_Ave *want* us to wear it -- neither
    	should we *not* wear it because some other men *don't* want us
    	to wear it.
    
    	As far as spending time in front of the mirror -- I can't really
    	see where it is anyone's business how much time any certain
    	individual spends looking at him/herself in the mirror (unless
    	it seriously impacts other areas of life such as the amount
    	of time that an SO has to *wait* for the person when preparing
    	to go out for the day or evening.)  In a case like that, it
    	is probably an area that an SO might want to bring up (but I
    	would certainly hope that it's something that could be negotiated
    	rather than dictated by the SO who is doing the waiting.)
    
    	Al, if you don't care for makeup, then don't wear it (and be
    	glad that your wife doesn't wear it either.)
    
    	But why worry whether or not anyone else wears it?
    
    	It's a matter of personal style (like the choice of beard or
    	no beard for men, and hairstyle for both sexes.)  
    
    	No big deal.
    
    							   Suzanne...

    
    	RE:  .21
    
    	Charles -- enjoyed your note quite a bit!!
    
    	From what others have told me, you are quite nice-looking
    	whether you wear a dash of makeup or not -- so have fun with
    	it!!
    
    	Male actors wear quite a bit of makeup on TV and in movies.
    	I can remember actually *applying* makeup to men when I worked
    	for PBS as a camera operator.  (Nearly all men who appeared
    	on camera had to wear some sort of makeup no matter what their
    	occupation was -- especially gentlemen whose hair had fallen
    	by the wayside, so to speak.)  :-)  Shiny heads could create
    	quite a glare under studio lights. :-)
    
    	It was strange and embarrassing for me to have to put makeup
    	on men (I can tell you!!)  I would have been delighted if any
    	of them had had previous experience enough to volunteer to do
    	it themselves.  :-)  It was uncomfortable for me to have to
    	put it on *anyone*, but it was more difficult to put it on
    	men.
    
    	Not that any of them refused to wear it, of course.  It made
    	them look nicer on TV (especially in closeups) and most of them cared
    	how they looked and knew it was no big deal for a man to wear
    	it.
    
    	Hope you get some good tips for the new eyeliner you bought!
    
    							Suzanne... :-)

    Well I wear make up because I like the way I look better when I
    am wearing it. :-) I use foundation and blush, (I have a very light
    complexion) lipstick and eyemake up.  Since I wear glasses I get
    the feeling that my eyes 'disapper' :-) without the liner. But on
    the weekends and vacations I am perfectly happy to wear just my
    plain face. My husband likes me both ways. :-)

    Re .25
    
    How *can* you wear eye makeup and glasses?  When I try it, I usually
    find the makeup smudged on the lenses (esp. mascara).
    
    Elizabeth

    re .19, okay I wear make-up because I think I look better with it
    and I can't stand to look in the mirror and think I look ugly
    regardless of what anybody else in the world thinks.
    
    As for your comments about "pale" women needing makeup, what's so bad about
    being "pale"?  I can't really help the fact that I happened to be
    born with extremely light skin!  Is pale skin now considered the
    ugliest thing a woman can have?  With my luck it probably is.

    (I think you just hate me because I don't like violent movies.)

    I think your attack on me, Jerry, was much harsher than my honest,
    sincere response to your question.  It's just the way I felt.
    
    I think you must be a very mean person.
    
    Lorna
    

    Oh, Charles!  I just *love* men in makeup.  Honest, no joke.  I
    think that eyeliner is especially nice for men.  I've always been
    saddened that our society's sexist attitudes have served to deprive
    men of the pleasure of wearing makeup, flowing clothes, or whatever.
    Why does our society insist that men *have* to look so, well, plain?
    My hat is off to you for challenging these attitudes.  Liberation
    is for EVERYONE!  I honestly don't know what to tell you about liquid
    eyeliner though, I've never gotten it to work.  
    
    Oh, yeah, the question.  I wear some makeup most days.  I have pale
    skin, and a touch of eyeliner, a little blush, and some lipstick
    go a long way to making sure my face doesn't fade away altogether.
    I also found from speaking with my deaf grandfather in the room
    that heavier lipstick enabled him to read my lips and understand
    what I was saying better.  I now wear lipstick anytime I am going
    to be giving a presentation.  If it helps me to be understood, I"ll
    do it.
    
    I also wear foundation and lipstick in the winter to protect my
    skin from the weather and excessive chapping.  Same thing, with
    sunscreen added, when I'm going to be out in the summer sun. 
    
    So much for everyday wear.  It rarely takes me more than 5 minutes
    to put on makeup, add another 10 for contact lenses, drying my hair,
    brushing my teeth, for a total of 15 minutes a day in front of the
    mirror.
    
    However, for special occasions  (especially Science Fiction conventions
    and costume parties) you can expect to find me in front of the mirror
    for 45 minutes to two hours.  I LOVE costume makeup - butterfly
    masks painted on my face, or zebra stripes or leopard spots or...
    
    And I don't care how long it takes, it is worth it!  And it has
    NOTHING to do with Madison Avenue.  Every woman has a fantasy or
    three...

    Rita
    
    PS: Lorna, Jerry really isn't a mean person, I'll vouch for him.  He's
    a decent guy.  
    

    Yeah.  There's cosmetics, and there's MAKEUP.
    
    Dress up and make believe.  Smear on that stick of thick, oil-based
    glop in an unnatural skin tone.  Use a few square inches of green
    eye shadow if you're going to be the villainess.  Paint on those
    bizarre eyebrows.  Furrow your forehead, eyes, cheeks, and mouth-nose
    area with shadow-wrinkles.  Straighten up that costume, stalk out
    on that stage, and smell that crowd.
    
    							Ann B.

    Ah, yes, Charles:
    
    The eyelid perceives liquid eyeliner as *cold*.  Dab a nice little
    spot on the edge of your upper lid, and it will fly right open --
    whap! -- and deposit most of its load halfway to your eyebrow.
    
    What I've done is sneak up on it by starting with a tiny bit near
    the outside corner, and work my way in both directions with little,
    tiny strokes.
    
    What real eyeliner users do is different:  Take the index finger
    of your off hand, place the tip of it at the outside edge of the
    lid, and drag them (finger and lid) back towards your ear enough
    to put tension on the lid.  You can now whip that painbrush from
    the inside corner to the outside in one swell foop, and it looks
    fine.
    
    							Ann B.

    The make-up hints are great (my office mate was about to try liquid
    eyeliner, so I passed on your advice).  FWIW, the sticks work a
    LOT easier if you moisturize your eyelids first.  Take a bit of
    Oil of Olay and rub your eye area (like when you're sleepy) before
    putting on coverstick (for those lovely circles), eyeliner or shadow.
    The sticks work great that way, and they blend better, too.
    
    In high-school, I wore makeup.  Every day, every where.  I had started
    to "taper" off when I met a new boyfriend.  He saw me in makeup
    (after getting to know me without) and told me I looked "like shit",
    like another person.  After that, I quit.
    
    Nowadays I enjoy a touch of makeup when I'm dressing up, when I
    want to look particularly stunning (Russian face needs it).
    
    Lee

    Re: .30 and .31
    
    Yeah, fantasy.  I have a new kohl eyeliner, and I'm pretending I'm
    back in Algeria.
    

RE: .8, .9

:-)

(RE: .24)

Most people require some makeup for pictures, because the lighting is so bright
that it makes them appear washed out.  I happen to be in the minority of having
a ruddy enough complexion to only need make up under lights for special effects.

RE: .28

There's nothing wrong with pale women... it's just a different 'look', which you
can do the most you can with what God gave you.  I have to agree that the best
makeup is makeup you don't notice.  Kissing a woman with a full paint job
doesn't taste the best. 
                                                    
Jim.

    re .34
    
    Russ, If you have normal skin (non oily or dry) then washing
    daily is probably sufficient.
    If you have very dry skin, then dry patting dry after washing
    this removes less moisture than rubbing dry.
    With very oily skin more frequent washing and use of astringents
    like after shave or witch hazel will help dry the skin.
    
    For those with dry skin who want to add creams but for what ever
    reason wish to avoid scented lotions...eucerin (sp?) cream is
    very good. My husband has very dry skin. I recently bought him
    nutrogena soap (which was recommended to me by another noter) and
    he finds that he has less peeling and flaking when he uses it.
    
    Was that the kind of advice you wanted? :-)
    
    Bonnie

    Re: .37
    If I were a man and my skin was so dry that it was flaking, I'd
    use Neutrogena unscented moisture lotion on it.  You can get this
    in drug stores.  Be sure you get the one marked unscented, if that's
    what you want.  It is hypoallergenic and does not promote acne.
    A little goes a long way.

    oops.  I was assuming this was for the face.  There are a heap of
    unscented moisturizers for the body at your local pharmacy.  They
    call them "body lotions".  Lubriderm makes one that you can use
    and then wear clothes over;  some of the others are sticky. 
    

    We both use Lubriderm. Me only rarely, because I have fairly "oily"
    skin, Janice (my sweetie) daily, after the shower. We use unscented,
    and both like it.
    
    After skiing, or on the river, some kind of moisturizer is essential.
    Even the most macho river guides I know use some kind of moisturizer
    on long trips.
    
    	-- Charles
    
    P.S. Hi Karen. Nice to see you in this file, what took you so long?

    Re: .40
    I was over in FELINE.  (Who wants to talk about women, or men, when
    they can talk about cats instead.)
    

    re: general
    
    If someone (man or woman) enjoys wearing make-up or thinks they
    look better with it, fine. That's an answer I'll accept (I'm
    looking for *answers*, period --- not answers that agree with
    some imagined viewpoint of mine). On the other hand, when I've
    asked this question to some women, I've gotten answers that said
    that while they think makeup makes them look better, they also
    think they've been "conditioned" to think so.
    
    re: theatrical make-up
    
    This is a whole different kettle of fish. I've worn make-up on
    stage (not often or for a very long time) and didn't think twice
    about it. But theatrical make-up is for "technical" reasons. It
    makes one look better under the glare of lights, or on film or
    video. Look at a person wearing such make-up from up close and
    it's a completely different story.
    
    Ann hit the nail on the head (whether she intended to or not): to
    my mind, make-up is part of a costume. It's as if the person in
    question is wearing a mask. I prefer to see the person, not a mask
    or costume. That's *my* opinion.
    
    re:.28
    
    > As for your comments about "pale" women needing makeup, what's
    > so bad about being "pale"?
    
    Who said anything about pale being bad? You're reading hostility
    where there is none. I only said that I could understand that
    someone with pale skin may want to add color to it with make-up.
    One of my former SO's had very pale skin; she didn't wear make-up
    (except for rare occasions) and I thought she was beautiful.
    
    > (I think you just hate me because I don't like violent movies.)
    
    Oh, come on. I couldn't care less about whether you like or hate
    violent movies. The *only* reason I argued with you during that
    whole discussion was because I didn't like your impplication then
    that anyone who *doesn't* hate violent movies must be a closet
    psychopath.

    > I think your attack on me, Jerry, was much harsher than my honest,
    > sincere response to your question.  It's just the way I felt.
    
    Well, I suppose everyone thinks his or her response is honest and
    sincere (me included), but your response struck me as being hostile.
    
    > I think you must be a very mean person.
    
    You're right. In my youth, I hung out with the Hell's Angels, joined
    the SDS in college, and the SLF afterwards. I also participated
    in several terrorist attacks at major European airports. Every other
    night I cruise the streets of Boston looking for people to beat
    up and rob. On the nights I don't do that, I go to a local bar,
    drink until I'm nasty and start bar fights. How did you guess?
    
    Really, Lorna, that was uncalled for. I could easily say the same of
    you. In fact, I had thought something along those lines during our
    argument about violence in movies. I was pleasantly surprised when I
    finally met you at a noters' dinner and found you to be a very pleasant
    person.
    
    You don't know me. You may have a perception of me from what I write
    in this conference or any other conference, but that's not the same
    thing. You don't seem to realize that people may also form an idea of
    what *you* are like from your notes that is at variance with what
    you perceive yourself to be.
    
    Enough with the personal attacks, OK?  It promotes neither communi-
    cation or understanding.
    
    --- jerry

    Since some of you know a lot about dry skin, do any of you have
    a remedy for very, very dry, flaking, cracking skin on your feet?
    Health services told me to look for Keri-bath, but I haven't found
    it yet.  Has anyone tried it?  
    
    (The rest of the body knows how to maintain skin moisture very nicely,
    but my feet feel like alien creatures.)
    

    Re Jerry, you're right, I'm sorry I said you were mean.  I don't
    really think so.  I think I was in a bad mood and what I was really
    thinking is that the world is a big, mean place.  Sometimes it does
    seem that way - sorry you indirectly got the blame for the world
    not being perfect :-)!
    
    I am sensitive about pale skin because people are always bragging
    about their tans around me in the summer, putting their arms next
    to mine and saying, "Look!  See my tan!  See how dark I am!"
    Conditioning about dark tans being the ultimate of beauty is a good
    example of mass brainwashing by the media!  (That's okay - hope
    they all get skin cancer! - no, not really! :-)  )
    
    Lorna
    

    Personally, I like spending alittle time in front  of the
    mirror, but most of that  time is spent on my hair, not on
    the  application of makeup.  I hate to say it, but alot of
    women dont really know how to apply makeup, and alot of times 
    the "more is better" attitude takes over. Just walk through any 
    Filenes or Jordans' Makeup section, and you will see what I mean. 
    Now that is too much !!  But a little blush and mascara could do
    just about anybody some good :-)  
    
    Kim

    re .43 Holly, Sometimes dry flakey skin comes from the type of soap you
    use. The worst I've tried is nice pure Ivory -- I can use it twice
    before I get terrible lasting results. A dermatologist (sp?) I spoke
    with suggested lotion soaps (Jergens and so on -- it's hard to find a
    kind that smells ok). He also said that most lotions (Keri may be ok)
    contain alcohol and lots of water. Two kinds that he recommended are
    Neutrogena (supposedly formulated for Norwegian bachelor fishermen) and
    Eucerin. These seem to have helped me. I've found both of these (and
    Keri, whose smell I detest) in most drug stores. Also, if you take
    baths, try squirting some baby oil in the water. Another thing you
    might try (if this keeps up) is going to a dermatologist. I had a yukky
    condition once that turned out to be (surprise) identifiable,
    treatable, and related to stress. Hope this helps.
    
    e

    If you want to try something extra gentle for dry, sensitive
    faces, Rachael Perry has some very nice products (a little 
    expensive maybe, but well worth it).  Just to give you an
    idea of how gentle this stuff is, my skin is so sensitive to
    soaps (I was allergic to it as a kid), that even extra mild
    Neutrogena burns my face and leaves me with dry flakey patches
    which takes days to heal.
    
    Okay, enuf of the sell job.  The stuff I use is:
    
    	Citrus/Aloe Clenser (it might be called something slightly
    			different) 
        Violet/Rose Toner -- helps close pores, feels kinda nice
                        on your skin.
    
    And for the shower, there's a nice, gentle, non-chemical type
    deoderant soap put out by Head called Green Tea Soap.  Again,
    this soap is a lot easier on (my) skin than Neutro or any of
    the other supposedly gentle stuff on the market.  
    
    Oh yeah, for moisturizer, a good, non-scented lotion is 
    Skin-Trip.  I forget who puts it out, but you can pick it
    up at Earthward in Milford, NH, or most health food stores.
    
    A good after-shower or in-bath body oil is an almond oil blended
    with other vegetable oils.  
    I can't remember who puts it out off hand, but again it can be
    found at Earthward.  I've read that mineral oil (baby oil)
    can actually promote wrinkles and other skin problems because
    it supposedly leaches valuable vitamine E from your skin.  So,
    I've always simply avoided the stuff.  
    
    

    DISCLAIMER - I am a *female* engineer and I love to wear 
    make-up!     :^)
    As a matter of fact, I had thought to pursue a career as a beautician
    at one point in time, but engineering won in the long run!   ;^)
    
    I wear make-up because I *like* to.  I use it sparingly, usually some
    foundation to even out the complection, blush for alittle color,
    eyeliner to widen my brown eyes, mascara for the lashes and lip
    gloss to protect my lips.             
    
    In the cold weather I use a moisturizer (Oil of Olay is good as
    is Nivea - I would suggest that some of the inquiring men try Nivea
    on the dry spots, use it on a regular basis and you'll notice 
    improvement) - no I didn't get paid to say that.  ;^)
                    
    It only takes me about five minutes to put on my make-up, blow-drying
    my hair takes about ten minutes, other than that I don't spend much
    time at the mirror. 
    
    My 2 cents,
    
    Nancy
         
    

    for dry or sensitive faces/bodies.
    
    Aveenobar - oilated for dry skin
    Aveenobath - just pour it in and it works.
    
    Aveeno is colloidal oatmeal (whatever that is).  It feels nice.
    It adsorbs the dirt and stuff from your skin (so you don't have
    to scrub) (adsorb - the aveenostuff adheres to the dirt and takes
    it off your skin).  It's kinda expensive (50 cents / bath) but well
    worth it for my skin's sake.
    
    -Jody
    

    
    The lotion I use is called "Skin Saver" by Palm Beach.  It's wonderful
    and can be found at most beauty supply stores.
    
    My dermatologist tells me to switch moisturizers from time to time
    because skin can adapt too well to one, just like hair adapts to
    shampoos.  I switch between Keri, Oil of Olay, Organic Health and
    Skin Saver every month or so.
    
    My mother, however, has been using Ponds Cold Cream ever since I
    can remember and her skin is as smooth and soft as a newborn babe's.
    
    I guess it just depends on the individual.
    
    Carol_and_I_wear_make-up_because_I_*like*_to
    

    Re: .43 (very dry skin on feet)
    
    I believe I've seen keri products in the local drugstore;  I've
    found that asking the pharmacist about stuff that you can't find
    in the store usually results in some being unearthed from the back
    shelves.  Years ago when I had super dry skin, a dermatologist
    recommended a body lotion called Wibi.  It is still available. 
    It works wonders in about a week.  There is no hope that you can
    wear clothes over it, however.  The best thing to do is to put it
    on  when you come home and you don't have to wear clothes for awhile.
     Vaseline is also an oldtime super-remedy and just about as
    inconvenient.

RE: .51

"My dermatologist tells me to switch moisturizers from time to time because skin
can adapt too well to one, just like hair adapts to shampoos."

I don't believe that that is quite right... I was told by a F&D chemical
engineer that all shampoos and soaps leave a residue characteristic to that
particular shampoo or soap, some more, some less.  When you switch brands, the
new brand of shampoo the built up old residue is cleaned away, and the new
shampoo actually seems to clean better, for a while, at least... 

The industry gets a lot of miles out of this fact by switching the chemical
formulation of a product back and forth, and advertising it as 'New &
Improved...'. 
 
Jim.

    Re: last -
    
    Interesting bit of enlightenment.  Maybe I should forget about
    switching shampoos and moisturizers and just switch dermatologists.
    :-)
    
    I will pass on something a hairdresser told me, though, relative
    to Jim's comment about the chemicals in shampoos - repeated shampooing
    with the same brand will cause a waxy-like build up, rendering the
    hair limp.  Changing shampoos sometimes helps, but the best way
    to remove the buildup (it works for me at least) is to add about
    a teaspoon of baking soda to the amount of shampoo that you apply
    to your hair, work it into a paste, and wash your hair with it.
    I do that once a month.  (No problems, so far!)
    
    And my hairdresser uses Prell shampoo to strip perms.
    
    :-)
    
    Carol

>    And my hairdresser uses Prell shampoo to strip perms.

    I've been known to use Prell, in a pinch, to clean the grease off
    of my hands after working on my car  8^{).  Nasty stuff.  Wouldn't
    put it in my hair unless there was no other choice.

    Dick

    Hooray for Charles! He seems to understand the fine art human adornment. 
    
    I often use makeup to subtly accentuate my personality or moods. A
    little of Cleopatra today, perhaps? My spouse used to give me a hard
    time about make-up, until he thought about it, and decided that he had
    no right to tell me how I should groom myself; after all I wouldn't
    presume to tell him not to shave, because "it's unnatural looking." How
    impolite, it isn't any of my business! Grooming is a form of artistic
    expression, whether it be halloween tiger stripes, professional war
    paint, or just a little blush to heighten the effect produced by my
    very pale skin. I feel very strongly that it is always *me* who wears
    the clothes or the makeup, and not the other way around. Of course,
    some people never look beyond the surface of anything. That is not
    *my* problem. 
    
    Re .44 Whenever someone pulls that "look at my tan stuff," I tell
    them that I am cultivating my Victorian Pallor, and swish my imaginary
    parasol to the other shoulder. ;)
    
    					--Catherine---*    
    
    

RE: .56

Ah hem...  as I mentioned in another note, it seems to me that women spend a lot
more time telling men what to wear, how to brush their hair, what to eat, etc,
then the reverse.

A lot of women complain about how stupid some women's fashions have been, and
complain that it's all men's fault.  Yet, I'll bet most of the time the *men*
who were having to pay for these things for *women* didn't think much of the
stuff.

Why can't you just wear blue jeans like I do? :-}  Get away from me!  I don't
*want* that slime on my hair!!! Aargh!

Jim. 

Perhaps some of the many bio majors here can shine some light on my 
question ...

Why do some many skin cosmetics use alcohol?  It seems to me that alcohol 
is rather strong and not something that the average skin would appreciate, 
especially day after day.  I know it evaporates quickly, thus making the 
skin feel "cool" and "refreshed" but doesn't it also leave the skin pickled 
or embalmed?  

Should we avoid cosmetics with alcohol?

       Meigs 

That's Meigs, who is now a ***real deccie ***.  The people here are
great!!! What Leave my Group?  Leave Womannotes???? NOOOOOOO. 

    re:.55
    
    > I've been known to use Prell, in a pinch, to clean the grease
    > off of my hands after working on my car. Nasty stuff. Wouldn't
    > put it in my hair unless there was no other choice.
    
    But, isn't removing the grease (or oil) from your hair the whole
    idea? Well, maybe not the *whole* idea, but...
    
    I use Prell all of the time. I have oily hair and Prell does the
    best job of cleaning it, out of the half-a-dozen shampoos that
    I've tried.
    
    re:.54
    
    Well, those of us who don't have perms don't really care if Prell
    strips them or not.
    
    --- jerry

    re .57
    
    I usally tell my SO what I would like him to wear when we go somewhere
    where jeans and a t-shirt just don't cut it.  So what?  I don't spend
    my time telling him what to eat or how to do his hair (not
    much he can do with it anyway its short and wavey and thats that)!
                    
    
    I don't usually wear make-up.  Maybe a touch of eyeliner and lipstick
    once in a great while.  I use to wear it when I was younger to look
    older to be able to get into clubs.  But know even though I still
    look younger than my age, my license seems to work just fine so
    I don't *need* it anymore.
    
    I think make-up looks better when it looks natural.  When it doesn't
    look like a bunch of colors on ones face.  Alot of woman look great
    in make-up and then there are the others.......
    
    Tanya                            
    
    

    
    And aveeno bar medicated is the best I've found for pimples, etc.
    I don't remember what's in it, but it's sulph____ something.
    
    CQ
    

    A few people have said, basically, "I wear make-up because *I*
    think I look better with it and I don't care whether anyone else
    likes it or not."
    
    This is a perfectly valid attitude. On the other hand, I don't
    see that telling someone (say an SO) that I think she looks
    better without make-up is really any different than saying,
    "I think you look better with longer hair" or "I don't think
    blue suits you".
    
    I'm actually on "your" side of the fence. My SO has told me that
    she doesn't care for long hair on men (my hair isn't *that* long
    --- rarely below the collar), that I should trim my mustache a
    certain way, and has expressed disappointment that I prefer plain,
    dark colors for clothes. Since I choose to ignore her suggestions
    or opinions in these areas (because *I* like things the way they
    are), I certainly wouldn't insist that she change her cosmetic
    habits. But I still feel no qualms about expressing my opinion on
    the matter, just as she's welcome to express her opinion on *my*
    tonsorial or satorial habits.
    
    After all, it's not like I'm going to disown her because she wears
    make-up (as long as she doesn't look like Tammy Faye Bakker :-)).
    
    --- jerry

    re .58 on alcohol in cosmetics....this is just a guess but I think
    it is used because it is a good solvent and does not contribute
    any smell or other characteristic of its own.

Moved by moderator
    
================================================================================
Note XXX.X                   Ever heard of Helia-D?                  
WAGON::RITTNER "Make the world turn around..."       21 lines   4-JAN-1988 16:01
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Kind of a funny thing to ask about, but...
    
    A few months ago a friend of my mother came back from Hungary and gave
    my mother a tiny jar of moisturizing cream called Helia-D as a gift. My
    mother frequently has allergic reactions to moisturizers, but had no
    reaction to this cream and found it moisturizes very well. She tried to
    find more of the cream in Miami (where she lives), but had no luck. We
    are assuming the cream is Hungarian (has very little information
    on the label and my mother's friend didn't know anything more).
    
    I would love to surprise my mother by finding some of the cream. I have
    called a few places here in Boston, but I thought I'd ask the question
    here, in case anyone had heard of Helia-D or could suggest a
    store/supplier that might carry out-of-the-ordinary creams/cosmetics. I
    also thought perhaps one of our Womannoters overseas might have heard
    of it and could give me the name of a store or supplier (I could
    possibly order it). 
    
    Thank you,
    
    Elisabeth