Conference turris::womannotes-v1

	Broken record time again.

	From my point of view (technical salaried employee), Digital is
	a great company to work for in that its benefits and working
	atmosphere are great. A FULL-TIME EMPLOYEE, male or female, mother
	or not, has a lot of flexibility, excellent benefits, a generous
	leave policy.

	I believe Digital is not great for the mother who still wants/needs to
	work and contribute, but wants/is able to work part-time.  Full-time
	working mothers burn out fast.  To me, 30 hours is about the maximum,
	with travel time, errands, cooking, etc., to handle.  Yet unless
	an employee works full-time he/she loses all the leave benefits,
	and unless an employee works 30 hours or more, he/she loses all
	the medical benefits.  I think Digital is beginning to understand this,
	and are moving to solve these problems, and at least they are moving,
	but molasses is faster.

						Eileen

    Re .0, Digital may offer excellent working conditions for mothers
    who happen to have professional level wage class 4 positions, but
    would hesitate to make such a strong statement for mothers who are
    secretaries or assemblers, for example.  Many Wage Class 4 jobs
    at DEC are jobs which allow the people who have them to come and
    go somewhat as they please as long as they are getting their work
    done, and this would be convenient for mothers.  But, from what
    I've seen in the past 12 years of working at DEC people who have
    to fill out time cards or punch a time clock do not usually have
    that freedom, whether they are mothers or not.
    
    I will say that at least at DEC if an overbearing manager does not
    understand that being a mother sometimes infringes on work, I have
    seen personnel come to bat for employees.  Two examples from my
    own past:  A few years ago when my daughter was in grade school
    I got a call at work to pick her up at school because she had a
    very bad nose bleed and she had become somewhat hysterical about
    the blood.  I was working as a secretary for an engineering manager
    here at DEC.  When I asked him if I could leave work 3 hrs. early
    to pick up my 9 yr. old daughter who had a bad nose bleed, (keep
    in mind as a WC2 I would not have been paid for this time), his
    answer was, "Can't you just call a cab to pick her up."  (I could
    just imagine him sending his precious, more affluent daughter home
    in a cab sick alone!)  This was during the time that stories of
    missing children were really being made a big thing of in the media.
     I remember thinking, "Oh, just because I'm a secretary my child's
    life is not worth as much as yours!  Forget it, buster!"  Needless,
    to say I didn't work for this person much longer and have never
    forgiven him his arrogance and thoughtlessness.
    
    The other situation occurred earlier on in my time at DEC when my
    daughter was still younger.  At that time I was living 35 miles
    from work.  I had to get up in the morning get my daughter ready
    for school, drop her at my mothers house to wait for the bus, and
    then drive the 35 miles to work.  I went through a period of time
    when I always seemed to get to work 15 minutes late.  I was a secretary
    for a manager of product managers at that time, and he tried to
    give me a verbal warning over this.  I went to personnel, said I
    would make certain I would get in on time and explained my reasons.
     I have to say that personnel really came to my defense and I listened
    to the personnel rep explain to my boss that everybody doesn't have
    a non-working wife at home to run the house and that he should be
    a little bit more understanding, suggesting that he might be a bit
    late in the morning if he had to do all the things I did before
    I came into work - dishes, laundry, garbage, get the kid ready,
    get myself ready, etc.  I didn't get a verbal warning.
    
    So, there's good and bad at DEC.  After 12 years at DEC I'd hate
    to see what other companies must be like if we're one of the best!
    
    Lorna
    

RE: .2

""Can't you just call a cab to pick her up.""

Should have told him to do that to his daughter sometime!

Jim.

    Dec pays Wage Class 4 women 100% pay during maternity leave, but Wage
    Class 2 women only get 80%.  I guess Wage Class 2 women are only
    80% pregnant?!?!?!?!?                                   
    

    And Wage Class 4 women do not get overtime.
    
    Wage Class 2 do.
    
    

    
    So we have to work the overtime to get the missing 20% ??????
    

    RE: .6
    
    Joyce, Wage Class 4 men also do not get overtime.
    
    Wage class 2 do (now that sounds funny when you say it out loud,
    5 times fast :-) )
    
      Alan

    re:  .6
    
    And how does one work overtime, while on maternity leave, to make 
    up that 20%.  Also, keep in mind, overtime has to be approved.  The
    organization I'm in has just sent a memo out stating "no overtime". 
    

    Trust me being a Wage Class 4 in the current environment is not
    a plus.  I have worked more hours of overtime as a Wage Class 4
    than I ever was paid for as a Wage Class 2.  
    
    You are describing one situation where a Wage Class 4 has an advantage
    which is specifically in Maternity benefits.  Although it is not
    required many women on maternity leave have continued to contribute
    to the goals of the organization while on leave.  They have terminals
    at home and within days after birth are participating in the group
    effort.  
    
    It is important to understand that being paid hourly and being paid
    salary is based on government criteria.  An individual who has specific
    tasks to accomplish on a daily basis must be paid an hourly wage.
    Digital would save many dollars and would like to pay us all a salary.
    A Wage Class 4 individual works towards specific goals and projects.
    Some of their working time consists of planning, organizing and
    developing concepts and ideas.  This type of activity is not always
    turned on at 8:15 and off at 5:00.
    
    I am not sure what the logic is around short term disability and
    the difference between 100% for Wage Class 4 and 80% for Wage Class
    2.  One guess would be that it is the one benefit of the promotion.
    I do know that the 20% you do not get is considered expenses of
    working such as travel, lunches, dry cleaning, etc.  The other guess
    would be that as a Wage Class 4 you will most likely have to do
    some overtime to compensate for your time out as your projects do
    continue and not all the tasks can be accomplished by another person.
    

    	Getting back to .5's question as why WC 4 get 100% 
    	while on maternity leave and WC 2 only get 80% -
    	it is not a Digital phenomenon (sp?).  It happens
    	at other companies as well.
    
    	I believe it has something to do with insurance - 
    	does anyone know the *real* answer?  I agree -
    	it does not appear to be fair.
    
    

    
    	RE:  .10
    
    	In some groups (such as mine), there is such a thing as
    	a Wage Class *3*.  Those employees get *BOTH* overtime,
    	*and* 100% pay during maternity leave.  (Neat deal, eh?)
    
    	Unfortunately, as a T7S (Support Engineer), I'm a Wage
    	Class 4 Field Service Engineer myself (so I get to look
    	wistfully back upon my days of making overtime.)  :-)
    
    	The Wage Class 3 employees in DEC have one of the best deals
    	(as many Senior Field Service Engineers will tell you.) :-)

    						       Suzanne...

    re:  .12
    I just spoke to personnel and they said, "It's not so much a difference
    in Maternity Leave, but a difference in benefits.  Maternity Leave
    is considered Short term disability, and WC2 only receive 80% of
    their pay on STD."  I asked her if there was a reason for that and
    she said "No.  Seems a little discriminatory doesn't it?"  I had
    to say "Yes, it sure does..."

    Sorry, previous response was for .11 not .12. 

    It has always annoyed me to hear WC4 employees complain about not
    getting overtime.  Overtime is the only benefit that WC2 people
    have over WC4.  First of all, *most* WC4 people make so much more
    money than *most* WC2 people that even without the overtime you
    are making way more than we ever could even with many hours of overtime
    a week.  The only exceptions to this might be project techs who
    have worked their way up to big money and still get overtime or
    some instructors who are WC4's but still don't earn a high salary
    by normal WC4 standards.  Otherwise, WC4 employees get more money
    even without overtime, they get to set their own hours without to
    an extent without being watched by a hawklike boss, they get as
    has been said 100% short term dissability and maternity leave (which
    must come in handy since their pays are usually more to begin with
    anyway).  Please, it's like hearing Imelda Marcos complain that
    there were some shoes she just never got around to buying!
    
    Why would DEC love to pay us all a salary and exactly why can't
    they?  I think part of the difference has to do with enforcing a
    class system of sorts, and perhaps encouraging WC2 workers to try
    to become WC4 workers so they can get those neato benefits, too.
    
    Lorna
    

>< Note 559.15 by APEHUB::STHILAIRE "food, shelter & diamonds" >
>
>
>    Why would DEC love to pay us all a salary and exactly why can't
>    they?  I think part of the difference has to do with enforcing a
>    class system of sorts, and perhaps encouraging WC2 workers to try
>    to become WC4 workers so they can get those neato benefits, too.

    Someone else  said that DEC would love to pay us all salary, and I
    won't  defend  that  statement, but DEC can't legally pay everyone
    on  salary.  (I'm  more familiar with MA, so the laws I refer only
    apply here, but they're similar elswhere in the States.) There are
    two  classes  of  employees: exempt and non-exempt. These refer to
    whether  or  not  the  person  is exempt from the minimum wage law
    (which  also affects a lot of other things.) An exempt employee is
    a  manager  (a person who can hire or fire others) or a "bona fide
    professional",  whatever  that  means.  A professional seems to be
    someone  whose  job requires a professional degree (doctor, lawyer
    ...) or someone who does a job under minimal supervision (That's a
    poor  description,  but your intuition on who is a professional is
    probably  good  enough.)  A  non-exempt  employee  is  anyone else
    (including  secretaries,  janitors,  most  technicians, assemblers
    ...)

    Non-exempt employees  are subject to the minimum wage, and must be
    paid  time  and  a half for any hours over 40 in one week. I don't
    remember what other requirements there are.

    Exempt employees are not subject to those laws.

--David

    The state requires that individuals who perform tasks that can and
    are accomplished on the job and can be measured....be paid hourly.
    This is for the employee's benefit and prevents a employer from
    hiring an individual on salary and giving them so much work that
    they cannot accomplish it in 40 hours and they must work overtime
    without compensation.  As I said before exempt individuals skills
    and tasks are not always performed on the job....and because they
    work with less supervison have more decision making powers they
    are not considered victims of such abuse.
    
    Digital would like to pay everyone a salary not to save money but
    to streamline the payroll system and to also consider each employee
    a professional.  
    
    Compensation specialists are very aware of the government requirements
    for hourly and salary wages.  Several years ago many entry level
    Wage Class 4's were returned to Wage Class 2 status.  They did not
    loose any pay and in fact made out well in the process.  The reason
    for this reclassification was to be proactive and to do this before
    the government came and told us we were being unfair to our employees.
    
    I do not make that much more than the high level Wage Class 2's
    and in fact there was a time that a woman that reported to me earned
    more than I did with two hours overtime.  I consistently put in
    five to ten hours overtime.
    
    I also have a fair amount of supervision.  I do not ask anymore
    of the people that report to me than I expect of myself.  In my
    current environment where I only have one report I can afford
    to be very lenient.  When I had eight people reporting to me I found
    it a little difficult because leniency also meant that some people
    would take advantage of the situation.
    
    I expect I might be going down a rat hole with this one...if anyone
    has any questions off line I would be glad to answer them.  
    
    The question we really want answered is the insurance benefit question
    is there a law around that or is that a decision of the insurance
    company or DEC.  
                                             

    There is another benefit which WC4's have over WC2's, and I wonder
    why this "rule" is the way it is.  WC2 people have 12 paid sick
    days per year.  If we exceed that number be are not paid for extra
    sick days.  WC4 people have unlimited sick days.  Why is this? 
    Just another added bonus for the college grads and those who have
    plowed their way up to management, etc?  And, if so, is it fair?
     Shouldn't the extra money and lack of over supervision be enough
    bonus?
    
    Also, I know that if I have to leave to go the dentist, doctor,
    registry office, etc., or stay out due to inclement weather, I do 
    not get paid for that time.  I also know that WC4's get the same pay 
    each week regardless of whether they were there 40 hrs or not.
    As for over time, I haven't had a job that required it in 4 years.
    I, personally, feel there is too great a discrepancy in the benefits
    granted WC4 and WC2 employees.
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna,
    
    You seem to have the idea that all WC4 people live and work in
    some kind of high-income environement, where we can all come and
    go as we please.
    
    Maybe this is so in some areas, but believe me it is not true in
    others. A person who has worked their way to a WC4 from a WC2
    could very well be making less money than a WC2 that has just 
    joined the company. 
    
    You mentioned *setting their own hours without to an extent without
    being watched by a hawklike boss*. Maybe so in some groups, but
    again believe me, in others this is no different from being a WC2.
    
    On *unlimited sick days*.....maybe so on paper, but in some groups
    if you're sick you still come into work because the work has to
    be done and you're responsible for it. If you are sick and out of
    work you can plan on working evenings and weekends to carry out
    your job responsibilities.
    
    *Staying out in inclement weather*......Most times this has to
    be taken as a vacation day, if one did not know that the storm
    would hit and did not take work home with them for the next day.
    
    The grass is not always greener on the other side. 
    
    kath

    >I also know that WC4's get the same pay each week regardless of
    >whether they were there 40 hrs or not.        
    
    Yes, and we also get paid for 40 hours even if we work 80.  There
    have been many weeks during my career at DEC where I would have
    made more $$ by working the same hours at Burger King.  Many, many
    WC 4 employees put in more than a 40 hour week on a regular basis.
    
    Rita
    

    And some of us "college grads", Lorna, started as WC2's and had
    to fight our way up to WC3 and then WC4.  I view the better benefits
    in part as rewards for my tenacity.
    
                 Carol

    But, folks, let's not lose sight of the fact (and I am absolutely
    convinced that it *is* a fact) that people working in the secretarial
    field such as Lorna does are often  s h o c k i n g l y  badly paid
    for the contribution they make to profitability.  
    
    (And before someone come in blowing about how it's all due to The
    Laws Of Supply And Demand, I would wish to point out the current
    situation in Massachusetts, where companies are operating shorthanded
    rather than rise the wages of their (largely female/black/young)
    staff.)
    
    						=maggie

    re:.-1

>    But, folks, let's not lose sight of the fact (and I am absolutely
>    convinced that it *is* a fact) that people working in the secretarial
>    field such as Lorna does are often  s h o c k i n g l y  badly paid
>    for the contribution they make to profitability.  

    I strongly agree with maggie.  There is nothing that contributes more
    to the smooth operation of an engineering group than a competent
    secretary.  Too bad I'm not a policy maker, secretaries would make
    as much as some of the engineers  8^{).

    re: .15

    I don't complain about not getting paid overtime, I complain about
    having to work it  8^{).  Seriously, I know of some people who
    effectively took a pay cut when they were promoted and went from
    WC2 to WC4.  These people had been putting in 60-70 hours on a
    regular basis.  I would not be surprised if the promotions were
    given to cover up the fact that these people were overworked and
    to reduce their cost.

    re: .18

    I recently returned to DEC from Teradyne.  They are very fair there.
    Everybody gets 15 days per year to cover combined sick and vaction
    time.  The theory is that most people who take more than 5 sick days
    are "gold bricks".  I'll take DECs policy with 12 sick days anytime.

    Dick

    And I have to get into this, too ...
    
    I'm a WC2 Admin Secretary -- I work 40 hour a week plus, don't put
    in for the time I throw lunch in my face while answering phones
    and typing, show up on time in two foot snowstorms (with over an
    hour's commute), stay late often (seldom requesting overtime pay)
    because a manager didn't plan his project properly to account for
    the time I needed to contribute to it.  I do this was I AM A
    PROFESSIONAL and a member of the team.  I don't think I'm making
    sacrifices, and I'm not complaining about doing this.  It's part
    of my job; it's what I do. But I do wish that I was paid for my
    contribution, not for the title (which I share with people with
    appalling skills who don't care about their jobs).
    
    But at least when I go out on leave to have my baby in April, I
    don't have to worry about if there'll be a job for me when I return.
    DEC is desparate for decent secretaries (we are already recruiting
    for my replacement and don't expect to find one in time).
    
    Gloria

    Re .24, yes, Gloria, there have been many times when I have worked
    through lunch or stayed late because an engineer or manager suddenly
    seemed to realize that he needed a set of slides and 50 copies of
    a 20 page presentation for a meeting being held an hour from now,
    but which it usually turns out had been scheduled for 2 weeks or
    more in advance *sigh*.  (To say nothing of the business plans and
    engineering specs I've had to type in the past, which suddenly become
    life and death situations, based on how soon the secretary gets
    the job done, not on how soon the engineer or manager gave it to
    the secretary!  And trying to stay pleasant and sweet in the face
    of it all!)
    
    Lorna
    

    I totally agree that secretaries and other people in "clerical"
    jobs are undervalued and underpaid.  My feathers were ruffled when
    I perceived what I took to be a backlash against people in WC4
    positions.
                           Carol

re .24 lunch and phones - go to the cafeteria and STAY THERE for 30
    minutes. It will teach your boss more about your value to the
    organization than the eight hours you are there.
    
    re. working late - if your boss has requested that you stay,
    then overtime *has* been requested. Simply put it on your
    timecard and don't say a word. And if he balks at paying it,
    it's time to have a serious talk, meaning " I don't work 
    for free, and I *am* WC2 ". I never hesitate to put in my
    hours worked extra, even as little as 15 minutes (.25 hours)
    and get paid for it. It also helps to document your willingness
    to "work extra hours to achieve department goals" for your
    review :-)/2
    
    Dana

    The following reply is provided by a member of our community
    who wishes to remain anonymous at this time.
    
    						=maggie
    =============================================================
    
    Because I have just recently (5 1/2 months ago) gone from a W2 to a
    W4, I'd like to make a few comments. 

    First of all, in my estimation, the most important thing about any
    job is whether you get it done efficiently or not.  In my 6 1/2
    years at DEC I have had some excellent managers who have felt the
    same way.  These were people who didn't feel that their W2 employees
    should be penalized for going to the dentist, picking up a sick
    child or coming in late because of a snowstorm as long as you got
    the job done.  These were also the same employers who I gladly
    worked through lunch or came in early or stayed late for without
    reflecting this on my time card.  The only manager I had that did
    not feel this way was my last one.  Thankfully my job was
    disappearing and I was already in a full job search when she came on
    board. 

    I feel that I am lucky that I was able to jump the hurdle (so to
    speak) and obtain a new position that was a W4.  This is because I
    now have a better chance, according to personnel, of advancing in my
    career.  In actuality it my advancement from W2 to W4 was only one
    step up from my last job since I was already at the top rung of a W2
    in finance.  I started with DEC in 1981 as an Admin Secretary and
    became quickly aware of the fact that because of the salary ceiling
    that I needed to direct my efforts elsewhere if I wanted to be able
    to obtain any financial security as a single parent. 

    Within DEC there is a definite stigmatism attached to W2 employees
    and especially to those who are Secretaries.  People within DEC are
    always com- plaining that there are not enough secretaries
    available, but noboby seems to want to make any moves to make the
    positions more inviting benefit or pay wise.  In order for an admin
    secretary to become an executive secretary and thus move up the
    ladder so to speak, she must either change jobs or already be
    working for someone who is high enough up (whatever that means) to
    warrant him/her having a executive secretary.  In my personal
    opinion if DEC would reword the title admin secretary to
    administrative assistant it would much better reflect what these
    women/men really do and maybe more of them would want to do the job.
    After all, gone are the days when the secretary simply answers
    phones and makes coffee for the boss.  Most supervisors get their
    own coffee and type their own memos leaving their secretaries to do
    jobs that jr. executives used to do. 

    Let's face facts if an employee is doing the work of a
    "professional" why shouldn't she/he get the recognition and pay for
    such.  According to my dictionary the word professional means:  Of,
    pertaining to, characterisc of, or engaged in a profession; and the
    definition of profession is:  An occupation, esp. one requiring
    training and specialized study.  Okay, I guess that means that
    everyone (with very few exceptions) at DEC is really a professional.
    There goes the theory (as heard around DEC) that non-exempt people
    are not professionals. 

    Next comment. 
                    

    
    
    Getting back to the original topic...A couple of months ago MS.
    magazine had a list of the top 20 companies for woman to work for
    in the U.S.  Digital was not on the list.  Each company was chosen
    because of ratings in certain categories such as Maternity/Paternity
    leave, flex hours, child care, pay/advancement etc.
    
    I can't remember all of the companies... I will check at home for
    the list...Kodak and IBM come to mind.
    
    The only category Digital would score well on (in my opinion) is
    pay/advancement.  Some of these companies on the list had for maternity
    leave a year off without pay but guaranteed their job when they returned.
    Not bad!

    I can't even recall which notes I want to respond to, so I'll respond
    in general.
    
    When I was promoted from WC2 to WC4 my income dropped roughly
    $2000...the difference in the amount of overtime pay I was then
    getting.  
    
    Re:  Overtime.  It is ILLEGAL for a manager to silently expect that
    a project requiring overtime will get down without having to pay
    that overtime.  If you work the hours, legally, you must be paid.
     Any manager or supervisor that ignores that fact is opening up
    a nasty can of worms for DEC.  That includes lunches you work through.
    
    Even when I was WC2, my manager had supplied me with a terminal
    at home so that if one of my kids was sick, or the weather too
    inclement to come in (1 hour commute), I could still work on projects
    at home and not lose the pay.  It worked for both of us, because
    I in turn, made it acceptable for him to call in the evening with
    emergency slides or memos that HAD to get out...(it was either that
    or come in at an ungodly hour in the morning...for me).  
    
    I worked hard for my promotion, and my boss was proud and happy
    to give it to me.  The dip in income is more than made up for in
    the potential my career now has.
    
    I strongly agree with the note (.24) that talks to the issue that
    many Admin Secs are really doing the work of Administrative Assistants.
    There should be a criteria established and a transitional WC4 entry
    level position established for this role.
    
    my-two-cents
    
    Rox

    Sorry -- I referenced note .24.... I meant note .28.
    
    Rox

    I'm not sure that it is illegal to not pay overtime, unless the
    hourly wage goes below minimum wage.
    
    Elizabeth

    RE: .32
    
    Elizabeth, if a person is "non-exempt" (in DEC, usually WC2), that
    is, if he/she is not exempt from the Federal Fair Wage Law (or some
    other crazy name like that), then, legally, they must be paid for
    any extra time worked over a standard 40 hour work week.
    
    Also, some states, mandate that non-exempt people *must* be paid
    time and one-half (or double time) for working on Sundays.
    
      Alan                                                   

        Not only are non-exempt employees supposed to be paid for over-
        time beyond 40 hours weekly, but for hours beyond 8 daily. 
        
        My wife used to work 4 10-hour days third shift. That meant she
        worked 8 hours that counted as overtime (2 hours beyond the
        normal 8 each day), and that there was a 15% shft differential,
        her normal wage was 26.5% above her base wage. In addition to
        that she di work real over-time (in excess of 40 hours a week).
        Early in our careers that meant she made more than me since I
        was a pretty poorly paid WC4. I also tended to work longer
        hours than she did for no extra money.
        
        This is the up-side of the protections that WC2's are not
        exempted from. The down side is that after a few years I caught
        up with her and am now making more than she ever could have
        without changing jobs all together. (As it was she stopped
        working for money and started taking care of the home and kids.
        Talk about over-time without pay!) Just before she stopped
        working she topped out at the top of the highest non-supervisory
        job class in her field. Since she really enjoyed her work, that
        meant she was pretty well stuck--leave the job she liked or get
        only cost-of-living adjustments. 
        
        Depending upon where you either the up-side o the down-side can
        appear more important. In the end WC4 is the better deal, but
        that doesn't mean that WC2 isn't without it's good points.
        
        As to the question of whether DEC is one of the best places for
        working mothers, I suspect that we probably are and that this is
        just another case where the fact that we are the best or one of
        the best in a certain field is "a mighty soberin' thought" as
        Pogo would say. It's unfortunately the case that our excelence
        in some dimensions is as much of a sad commentary on the state
        of the rest of the world as it is a matter of pride for us.
        Close as we are we can see all the warts and how things could be
        so much better, and all the time we lose track of how much worse
        it not only could have been but actually is. 
        
        JimB.

    I was in the same position as Jim's wife (in fact, at one point,
    she and I were co-workers). When I was eventually promoted from
    Lead Operator (WC2) to Shift Supervisor (WC4), my then-boss
    managed to get me a compensatory raise (I was already past the
    Supervisor's minimum) to make up for the 4 "lost" hours going
    from a 4_10-hour-day schedule to a 5_8-hour-day schedule, but I
    still missed the other overtime.
    
    --- jerry