Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Your son is 11.  If you got pregnant today you could safely say
    that your son "grew up" without siblings.
    
    I was nine when my sister was born.  I definitely feel I "grew
    up" without her.
    
    Consider your other reasons.  And his.

	I grew up when I was 12.  I was an only child, still
	am as a matter of fact.  Depends on the family, and how
	they make you grow up...

			Micheal

    
    I don't have any kids, but I am an only child of "older" parents.
    My mom was 33 and my dad was 43 when I was born - their first child.
    (They had a second baby when I was 4, but she died at birth and
    mom couldn't have any more kids.)  
    
    If your husband is mainly concerned
    about being older, then I guess I don't see that as a disadvantage,
    but rather (mainly) an advantage.  The advantage is the security
    that an established parent or parents can give a child (I think you
    mentioned how you feel more secure now financially).   And its not only
    financial, but also emotional security.  I'm not saying that older
    parents are more emotionally stable than younger ones, but they
    are *usually* more experienced in life.  (When I was a child in
    school I can remember several friends who have much younger parents
    than mine.  These friends would tell me about not being able to
    go to a movie, or having to sleep with their parents because that
    was the only bed the family owned.  And, their parents, understandably,
    fought a lot about money.)
    
    The only real disadvantage to an older parent (especially my dad)
    is that the age difference (43 years in my situation) makes us
    have extremely different opinions on many topics.  And this really
    didn't come out until I started college and became more independent.
    It just takes patience and understanding.
    
    If your husband is more concerned about the child being a burden,
    then I'd reconsider wanting a child with him.  And, being good
    with kids is a plus - but its easy to do that when you don't have
    to take them home!
    
    BTW, I do wish I had siblings.
    Anna
    

    It sounds like it is very painful for you to consider going through
    the rest of your life without having another child, and yet
    it sounds equally painful for you to upset your husband and disrupt
    his desire for peace, ease and lack of hassles by doing it without
    his support.
    
    I would definitely be in his position if this issue was current
    for me, and so I can easily understand that.  But I've watched other
    friends who are feeling intense "baby hunger" and I've seen how
    the desire can override all other feelings and urges.  I've often
    wondered what it would be like to be in a relationship where my
    SO's heart was set on having a child and I felt unable to even consider
    the possibility.   It would be a painful dilemma.
    
    It sounds like you and he have a good relationship which you don't
    want to jeopardize.  But one friend of mine in your position needed
    to struggle for a long time with the question of whether having
    the child was so important to her that she would sacrifice the marriage
    to do so because *both* were important to her and she felt she had
    to choose.  She explained this to her husband in a very
    non-manipulative way.  When he realized it was that important to
    her, he supported her as best he could even though his heart wasn't really
    in it.  I don't see them much any more, so I don't know what has
    happened since they had the child.                
    
    It may be important for you to ask yourself that same question.
    
    Good luck.  I hope you all get what you need.
    
    Holly

    Thanks, everyone.  Maybe I should back up a little.  I was raised
    in a family of six children -- incredibly spaced -- 44, 41, 34,
    34, 28, 24. (my brother and I are twins).
    
    For my mother it was like having three small families.  She raised
    kids during the 50's, 60's and 70's.  My older sister is ten years
    older than I am, and I am ten years older than my younger sister.
    We are *very* good friends.  My relationship w/my older sister is
    very special as is the one with my younger sister.  
    
    I think about all this when I think of having another child.  The
    spacing in the younger years is only a convenience for the parents.
    The space of eleven or twelve years between my son and a new baby
    does not matter to me -- I think it will be good for the children
    when they grow up and I am long gone.  I worry that after my husband
    and I have gone, that my only son will have no family until he starts
    his own.  I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

    Well, my daughter is an only child (aged 13) and it has not bothered
    her yet.  I have never personally experienced a strong desire to
    have a baby.  My daughter was unplanned and even though I love her
    very much I've never really wanted another one.
    
    However, if you would like another child I think you should have
    one even if it means being dishonest to your husband.  He doesn't
    want a child, you do.  Why should he get his way and you not get
    your way?  He should be compassionate enough to understand what
    this means to you.  He may just prefer not to be bothered by having
    another baby around, but to you this desire may be disrupting your
    whole life.  Put your own wants first.  Everybody else does.
    
    Lorna
    

    	Deb, I can well understand your longing for another child.
    	My son is 16 (he will be 17 next month) and I still go through
    	moments of intense longing to give him a sibling.
    
    	Ryan himself has always expressed an interest in having a
    	brother or sister (and still feels that way, even now.)
    	He tells me that I should go ahead and have another child
    	(and that he will help me take care of it.)  Obviously,
    	at this point, he would more like an uncle than a brother,
    	but he still feels the longing to be someone's older brother.
    
    	When I had my son, it was at a time in my life when I had
    	to do everything I could to keep a roof over our heads and
    	insure some sort of future for us by going to college while
    	he was a baby/toddler/preschooler.  I never intended to stop
    	at one child (it just sort of worked out that way.)
    
    	Now, I am very much on the fence about having another baby.
    	I still have the longings at times (and so does my new SO),
    	but I can also see the benefits of the two of us spending
    	our lives enjoying *each other* (and the grown children that
    	we each bring to the relationship) without starting a new
    	family.  My new SO is also on the fence about it (he also
    	sees the benefits of having more children, and not having
    	more children.)  If we were to have any at all, we would
    	most likely have two fairly close together (so it would
    	indeed be an entire new family.)
    
    	I sympathize with you, Deb, that your husband is so set in
    	what he wants (and is unwilling to discuss the possibility
    	of another child with you.)  It must hurt a lot to go through
    	these feelings alone (knowing that your husband is so set
    	against having another baby.)
    
    	I think you are smart not to go ahead without his permission,
    	though.  No matter how he might feel later, he would most likely
    	be upset at first (and I know the pain involved when a man is
    	*unhappy* about his impending fatherhood.)  It is a terrible
    	thing to go through (and is probably worse than not having 
    	another baby at all.)
    
    	Best wishes for both you and your husband during this difficult
    	time.
    
    							   Suzanne...

    I wouldn't recommend deceiving anyone into having a child. That
    could only cause heartache for all concerned, which could prove to be 
    very detrimental to the child.  I wouldn't want to live with that
    kind of burden on my conscious for the rest of my life.


                   

	I can honestly say, that I wish I had a sister or brother.
	Unfortunately, my mother had a problem during her second
	pregnancy, and couldn't have another child.  There are 
	many times, I wish I had a sibling, but many times I was
	glad I didn't.  If I did, my parents would have never been
	able to survive, with my father being sick, and all.
	
	But at 16/17, I would not want a brother or sister to be
	born.  After 16 or 17 years of getting attention, the
	attention may derive to the new baby.  This could cause
	problems, I'm not saying they will, but they could.

	
			micheal

    	RE:  .9
    
    	In my case, I sometimes wonder if Ryan is worried about me
    	(thinking that I will be lonely without children when he is
    	ready to leave the nest.)  :-)
    
    	I also wonder if his feelings at 16/17 are the beginnings of
    	his own longings to have children.
    
    	The deciding factor will be how my SO and I feel about raising
    	another family (we have three children between us, and his are
    	older than my son.)  Like I said before, there are benefits
    	no matter which way we go.
    
    							Suzanne...

	Suzanne,

	I looked at it this way.  At 16/17, I still had the need
	for attention from my parents.  At 18/19, I didn't need 
	as much, because at that age, everything is different,
	I was working, out of HS, had my own car.  At that point
	if my parents wnated another child, I don't think it would
	have phased me a bit, cause I had my own life.

	And I have been wanting for a feww years now to have a son 
	or daughter, and I'm only 26.

		Micheal

    I always wanted to have more children.  The little one was no more
    than out of diapers when I was daydreaming about a new baby.  I
    had four children two of which were planned.  
    
    I think there are some of us that have that biological urge that
    causes us some pain if we cannot give in to it.  No matter how many
    children we have we always want one more.
    
    In my day and age we had real accidents and our husbands were not
    upset because the reliability of our birth control methods was not
    100%.  It was both a difficult time and a nice time.  We worried
    where we would get the money to support the new baby but the moment
    the child was placed in your arms the worry seemed to dissipate.
    
    It does seem very important now-a-days to work together and compromise
    on decisions.  Although I understand your needs I also understand
    your husbands concerns.  Whatever decision you make it is important
    that it be mutual.  There are no guarantees that the relationships
    that will be established with the new sibling will simulate the
    results you had in your family.  
    
    Just a few thoughts...on babies...and our need for them.
    

    re .0  I would suggest that you and your husband seek professional
    counseling - together. And that you *both* go with open minds.

    
    
    Boy, I sure thank God my wife is not like .6
    
    I just hate it when people say "everybody else does it,
    why not me".
    
    Basenoter: you certainly don't sound like a person who would
    trick somebody. Don't do it. 
    
    I hope you TALK to your husband first, before you assume
    anything or take something for granted, and that both of you
    get what you really need/want. 
    
    

    I personally would not and I repeat 'not' bring another child into
    being unless it was a mutual decision.  Too high a price to pay
    for all concerned.
    
    I strongly agree with .13 who recommends professional counseling
    for both of you.  
    
    Good luck, I don't know how I would handle this one myself.
    
    Jane

	I have to agree with .13 and .15, seek some professional 
help with the decision. Be open, honest and objective when going 
for help. 

	Simply because your husband enjoys and is "good" with kids
when they drop over doesn't mean that he'll feel the same way when
the "baby" doesn't go home at night... 

	How does your 11 year old feel about it? Perhaps you should
discuss it with him as well, as his life will be affected a great 
deal also. Eleven (twleve) years is quite an age gap in this fast 
paced life we live.. again, more impact on the relationhsip of your
11 year old and the potential sibling. 

	Again, as others have said, deceptions is not the way to 
go. It will only breed contempt and anger, who wants to grow up
or live in an environment like that? Certainly not I.. life can 
be tough enough. 
    
	Good luck with what ever you decide to do. Let us know. 

							-Thomas 

    My situation is similar to Suzanne's....one child, unplanned,
    can't imagine what life would be like without him...
    
    Perhaps this is the answer?  My husband and I just could not
    make the decision.  We went back and forth, looked at the pros
    and cons...finally said "Fine, we'll let nature decide for us"
    and stopped using birthcontrol.  Not long after, I discovered
    I was pregnant (oddly enough, I counted back to his gestation
    date, and was a month pregnant when we decided to "let nature
    take it's course").   This is right in line with my belief that
    each person is born to the parents and at the time, that they
    are meant to be.  I am quite certain that Jamey was "meant to
    be"....if you believe this also, why not just let whatever
    happens happen?
    
    

    >>We went back and forth, looked at the pros
    >>and cons...finally said "Fine, we'll let nature decide for us"
    >>and stopped using birthcontrol. 
    
    Sure sounds like a "yes" to me!   :-)
    
    Holly

    Re:18 I like that idea.
    
         REK

    I too would echo to *not* use deception in order to have a baby.
    
    You are not the only one responsible for the baby.  Your husband,
    as the baby's father, is also responsible for physical, financial,
    and emotional care of that child for 20 years.  That is an awesome
    responsibility to give someone without their consent.  If you have
    discussed it, and disagreed on it, if you just suddenly come up
    pregnant "accidentally", it will probably breed a lot of hostility
    between him, you, and the baby.  That is not a good situation to
    bring a new person into - children deserve a better situation than
    that.
    
    I agree with the people who suggested counseling for your family.
    
    Elizabeth

    Re .6, re .14, I'm not "like that" myself.  Just because I suggest
    an alternative view doesn't mean I would subscribe to it myself.
    
    I do think it best that this couple seek counseling.  If she wants
    a child that badly, and he doesn't, maybe they don't even belong
    together.  Maybe she should find somebody else to have a baby with.
     I mean, if she resents him for the rest of her life for not agreeing
    to have another baby, that's not going to be great for the marriage
    either.
    
    Lorna
    

    re:.6
    
    I really don't think it's a matter of "who gets his or her way".
    In fact, the whole idea of "getting one's way" can be reduced
    into adsurdity. An SO of mine once said to me, "I'd rather die
    than to hurt you." I replied, "And I'd rather be hurt than to have
    you die. So which of us gets his or her way?"
    
    As other replies said, it *has* to be a mutual decision, if for
    no other reason than the baby's sake. The whole point of marriage
    and a family is making mutual decisions. Making unilateral decisions
    to "get your own way" strikes me as being against the very concept
    of marriage.
    
    --- jerry

    Re .22, okay, you're right, I agree.  It's not nice to be deceptive
    :-).  (I think I was just in a mean mood when I wrote that - sort
    of a serve the "bastard" right mood, ya know.  But, it's not how
    I really feel or what I would really do.)
    
    Lorna
    

    
    
    re: 6 re:21 Well, it sure sounded like you liked the idea enough
                to suggest it. And I didn't see it as you put it" an
    		alternative view". It seems to me that what you "suggested"
     		would indeed be a very selfish attitude.
    
    

    Thanks again, but may I reiterate a little - deception is out of
    the question - I stated that earlier.  And please, do not offer
    suggestions  that you would not take yourself.
    
    As far as counseling is concerned.  I have very little faith in
    them for this type of matter.  I don't need or want a referee. 
    I am only seeking others experiences who have been in this situation.
    
    As far as being "right for each other" I think 15 years of marriage
    can speak for itself.  We have gone through some very difficult
    times both emotionally and financially.  Counseling back then didn't
    help one bit -- common sense and the effort of not giving up is
    what kept us going.
    
    In fact, the counselor we saw on and off for over three years is
    now in jail for fraud.  He came highly recommended by two physicians,
    friends and a member of the clergy.  Not only was he not a
    psychologist, but he had duped the Licensing Board, his fellow
    practioners and his own family!  Blue Cross finally caught up with
    him.  I hope he rots!  Thank God, I was sane enough during those
    crises that I maintained common sense.  He could have ruined my
    life!
    
    So nix on the counseling in this case -- okay gang?  
    
    Thanks
    
    Debra

    re .6, .21, .24, I agree it certainly did sound that way.
    
    re .0, .25,  well, good luck.  
    
    Lorna
    

    re:.25
    
    A digression perhaps, but I feel obliged to point out that even
    if that counsellor was a "fraud" (i.e. he didn't have, and never
    had, a valid degree or license), it doesn't mean that he didn't
    know what he was doing. the fact that he came recommended by
    those you say he did seems to indicate this possibility.
    
    And on the converse, just because someone has a diploma doesn't
    mean he *does* know what he's doing.
    
    --- jerry

    Lorna,
    
    I thought that you were saying that Debra shouldn't automatically
    assume that she should have to give up what she wants because he
    is clear about what he wants!  (My interpretation).
    
    Regarding the counsellor who was a fraud --
    
    I would be angry too upon finding out I had been deceived.  
    
    Has anyone here read "Other Women"?  There is a scene in the book
    which this made me think of.  One of the therapists in the book,
    Mary Beth, kills herself.  Hannah, the main therapist in the book
    sees some of her clients afterwards.  One of them is furious and
    says that her suicide negated all their work together during the
    past year.  Hannah very calmly points out that that isn't necessarily
    true, because the client had been finding the therapy helpful enough
    to keep returning, and the client had gotten something that the
    therapist's suicide couldn't take away.
    
    (Debra, I realize this might sound like pressure, or a negation
    of your clear statement about no therapy.  It's not, just an
    association on my part.  The book and your story both made me think
    about what a therapeutic relationship is, and by what criteria 
    one could decide that it has worked or not worked.)
    
    Holly

    for a shudderingly scary look at the world of psychiatrists/counselors,
    read Barbara Gordon's "I'm Dancing As Fast As I Can".
    
    sends shivers up my spine for sure.
    
    -Jody
    

RE: .6

"However, if you would like another child I think you should have one even if it
means being dishonest to your husband."

I don't see why one should have to be "dishonest"!

If you are talking about not taking precautions without telling him... <NOVA>

You can't know what that feels like...  And I can't even begin to explain it.

There ought to be a law against it!

"Why should he get his way and you not get your way?"

Try putting the shoe on the other foot, and see how it fits!

"Put your own wants first.  Everybody else does."

"Maybe she should find somebody else to have a baby with."

That is certainly preferable to anything else which you have proposed.

Jim.

    Re .30, Jim, it was just a thought!!  Geeze, I already said that
    I agreed it's not a good idea to introduce the element of dishonesty
    into a relationship.  I think maybe I just wanted to see how outraged
    people would get if I suggested it as a serious alternative.  Sorry.
    
    But, .0, seemed to be disgusted by all the suggestions.  She doesn't
    want counseling, she wouldn't dream of being dishonest, and she
    feels she has a great relationship.  Since this is the case, I don't
    mean to sound rude or heartless, but it sounds like if he doesn't
    change his mind she'll just have to accept the fact that she's not
    having any more babies.  Under the circumstances there seems to
    be no solution to this problem.  I'm sorry life has to be like that
    at times.
    
    Lorna
    

Hi Deb - I think you and your husband need to stop talking in gener-
alities and discuss actual points of conflict.  He says he's "too old".  
Too old for what?  In actuality, you will be "too old" to have a child 
long before he will.  In what way is he too old?  You need to find out
what he means.  That's the key.

And you need to examine how BADLY you want a child.  Sure, lots of people
want a baby if everything is nice-nice but if your husband wants no part
of it, do you want one badly enough to assume ALL the responsibility for
it?  WILL you need to assume ALL the responsibility for it?  You'll find
out if you get him to define "burden".  Maybe it's just diapers.  Maybe
he never wants to babysit again.  Maybe he means he doesn't want to con-
tribute financially.  Maybe it's all of those things or none of them.
The word "burden" is subjective.  Find out exactly what he means - what
exactly about it would "burden" him and negotiate those points.

I agree with other noters that this should absolutely not be a "who wins"
situation but a mutually arrived at agreement.  Either you both decide to
have a child or you both decide not to but if you both don't decide to-
gether one of you is going to regret it and that's all it takes.

What bothers me the most is that you've been married for 15 years and
have presented your husband with a serious issue that is weighing heavily
on you and he "refuses to discuss it".  You cannot arrive at ANY decision
unless both of you discuss it.  My greater concern would not be whether or
not he wants a child but why he doesn't take your yearnings seriously
enough to sit down with you and try to understand your feelings and help
you understand his.  I would be on alert with a man who's attitude seems
to be dangerously close to "What I say goes" because that IS looking at
it as a "who wins" situation.  This is not YOUR problem - it's a conflict
in your relationship - in his and yours.  He cannot just brush off the 
parts of living with another person that he just doesn't want to deal with.
Even if he never agrees to having children, he owes you as full and detailed
an explanation as you require to come to terms with your yearning and your
life.  We owe our lovers this consideration when we ask them to love us.

Would you leave someone you loved alone to wrestle painfully with intense 
feelings if you could prevent it?
    

    
    Well, here is a not from one of the bad ones. I have been reading
    this notes file, but was never prompted to write until now. I am
    one on the women who actuall tricked my husband!! He did not want
    a baby because he thought that we were not financially ready. I
    did so I simply stopped using birth control and neglected to tell
    him. I got pregnant and he threw a fit telling me to have an abortion.
    I told him NO, NO NO and he is free to do as he wishes in the ligjht
    of my decision.
    Well, he gave me the cold shoulder and I went ahead and had the
    baby. I saw him change from being not interested to making sure
    that I ate right by about the 6th month. He was at the birth and
    now he ADORES our son. However, I must say that the first couple
    months were hard, because he showed no interest, but I was so 
    elated that I did not even care. He even told me ," Thanks for
    standing up to me and having the baby. It was for the best"
    
    Please note that I am not advocating this method for anyone, but
    i am simply relating MY personal experience.BTW, I forgot to mention
    that Ialways noted that he was excellent with other people's kids.
    
    Desryn.
    

    re: -1  You took quite a chance and you lucked out.  You must have
    sensed he was really ready and just scared of the unknown before you 
    decided to go ahead and take that chance.
    
    I don't advocate it.  If you loose, you loose big.  And the chances
    of losing are greater than the chances of winning because a man
    "on the fence", (where most people are in the standard bell curve),
    may not be able to swallow his pride and admit he was wrong to a
    woman he has spent maybe months arguing his position with.  Takes
    a special guy.

    Re: .34 "If you loose you loose [sic] big."
        
    RE: .33  You sure did luck out.  If luck had turned the other way,
    though, it wouldn't have been just you who "lost", your child 
    would've shared in the consequences.  Sorry, but irresponsibility 
    in the bearing of children is a hot button of mine and I feel harsh.
           
    CQ

    
    re .35: I would not have considered myself as having "lost" anything
    of significant value if he had left me for that reason knowing how
    I felt.
    As for my child, my culture believes in the extended family,i.e
    uncles, grandfather etc. so there would have been lots of male
    role models. Also, if his father had died in a war or something
    he would have had to grow up without him.
    BTW, I was not born in this country. Neither was my husband.
    

    re: .0
    
    I vote WITH your husband/so/boyfriend/whatever. I am 49, had 4 of
    my own,have 3 ex-step children, and 3 current step-children (two
    at home ages 12/14). My new wife (age 43) feels she'd like to have
    another baby, but realizes the impracticality of it. I too can be
    good with kids, but am dead set against any additional children
    either naturally or by adoption (at least for now).
    
    I took some "permanent precautions" against fathering any more children
    several years ago, and although it may be medically possible to reverse
    the procedure I would not bother with any such attempt.
    
    Whoever said: "Its easy to be good with kids that are not your
    own" is right. If you can't believe this, check out a few sets of
    Grandparents !!! 

    'Course, there's always a recourse. (another alternative) .. there's
    always artificial insemination, and there's nothing that can be
    done to you for getting one (its not infidelity, so its not
    divorcible).
    
    Another avenue may be to find out (through counseling) your husbands
    (and yours !) real objections, and see if they may be overcome.
    I've heard rumours (to the effect) that a good woman can overcome
    any mans objections to anything reasonable and pruddent. ;^)
    
    Bob
    

    Have you examined the reasons why you really want another child?
    Is it that you feel the need to give birth again or do you not want
    your son to be an only child?
    
    We have two adorable girls now, but the question of when to have
    each (and nature did not always cooperate) were difficult ones.
    My husband is 43 and our youngest is 10 months old. The older one
    is 4 1/2. After a miscarriage 2 years ago, my husband started saying
    he was "too old."  Now we're both only children, and I told him
    that under no circumstances would I have an only child, and if that
    meant a divorce and starting all over again I would.  When he saw
    how strongly I felt about it, he conceded graciously. It took us
    over a year to get pregnant and he just adores our second daughter,
    though it did take him a little longer to become attached to her.
    He's better when they can walk and talk.
    
    When there was some question about my ability to conceive, we made
    an agreement to adopt if I wasn't pregnant by a certain time. That
    and certain medical procedures combined seemed to take off some
    of the heat and I did finally have a second.
    
    If you want another child so that your son will not be alone after
    you and your husband are gone, have you considered adopting a child
    who needs a home who might be, say 8 or 9? Have you discussed these
    issues with your son?
    
    I always and still do hate being an only child. Especially now that
    my parents are getting older. All the burdens fall on me and there's
    no one I can really count on to help out. Your son might like being
    an only child, or he might turn around and say, "I always wanted
    a younger brother I could play with.
    
    So consider whence this need comes and make it clear to your husband
    how important it is to you. He probably won't shut you out if he's
    made to understand how important it is to you.
    
    Maryan
    

RE: .36

"I would not have considered myself as having "lost" anything of significant
value if he had left me for that reason knowing how I felt."

What about your husband and your child?  I can assure you *they* would have
ended up the losers to *your* wants.

Jim.

Very often, there is a usually non-verbal, but implied, set of messages
that posits that it is predominantly women who have the strongest yearnings
to have children.

This may be true most of the time. But reading this note, makes me acutely
aware of my own longings that are impossible (and silly) to deny, especially 
to myself.

Having very recently fallen in love, I often have thoughts about having 
a "new" family all over again.

I can not rationally explain these urges, (perhaps the words "rationally"
and "urges" *are* mutually exclusive here); certainly it's not that I feel
my biological clock is ticking away, and that if I don't do it now, I'll 
never have kids. I already have two grown children to carry on my heritage 
and the "Ross tradition". :-) 

I try to convince myself that having more babies at this time in my life
would be folly. After all, I ruminate, my two kids from my first marriage 
are young adults, and more or less on their own. I tell myself I should be 
thinking of going on to the next "passages" in my life, to begin thinking
of slowing down, of enjoying the fruits of what I've built up over the years.

Yes, I convince myself; I reflect; I rationalize...and still, flying in the
face of all this logic, this reasoning, this calculated attempt to invali-
date my own feelings, the urge never completely leaves me; it won't be killed 
off. Not now. Not yet. This longing is as much a part of me as is the color 
of my eyes, my smile, my sex.    

I'm filled with the wonder of my woman's fertility, the sense of mysticism in 
our ability to bring forth a new life - a new little *person* - into this world,
as a celebration of the love she and I feel for each other. It touches that
secret place in my heart that shelters and nutures all my innermost "Alan" 
longings, that place in my heart from which I cannot run - or hide. 

Luckily, she and I would easily be able to afford our having babies
together. My heart goes out to those who face the dilemma of having the
same urges, but who do have have the financial means to support children,
the symbol of their own love for each other. 

And so, I analyze my life, balance my choices, argue with myself, sometimes
winning, sometimes losing.

And, perhaps most of all, I still yearn.
    
And know not what to do.    

  Alan

Re: .40

Hear, hear.  You described a lot of what I feel about having children,
but expressed it better than I could have done.  Thank You.

--David

    
    	RE:  .41
    
    	Agree with you Dave -- Alan's note was extremely well-written.
    
    	Sounds like someone out there is incredibly lucky.

    							Suzanne...

	Back to .0

	I'd agree with the previous suggestions that you NOT to view this
	as a win-or-lose situation, or you may both lose in the end no matter
	who wins.  

	But congratulations on rejecting deceit as a solution!  While it might
	have accomplished *your* goal, it doesn't really "solve" anything and 
	provides a poor precedent for the rest of the relationship.

	Question: Have *you* looked into alternatives that might give you the 
	feeling of "having a child" without the responsibility or permanence 
	that your husband may be objecting to?  For example:
		o Foster parenting
		o Big Sisters/(big brothers?)
		o Babysitting for weekend/extended period of time
		o Daycare (or nightcare) during the evening/night/weekend
		  (there's a lot of second and third shift mothers, especially
		  if you live near a hospital or 3-shift factory)
		(the latter two you could do in your own home, just to 
		increase the effect :-)
	No, it's not the baby you want, but it's worth considering as a
	compromise.  And proposing things this way may reopen the way to
	*talking* with your husband about the problem you both have; his
	refusal to discuss this may in part be triggered by his supposition 
	that you'd refuse to listen to him anyway... :-)  
		Helen

    What you want is important too.  Lots and lots of divorced and widowed
    women raise children alone.  Just be very sure that you understand
    what you are getting into... its great having kids but its scary
    and very, very hard alone.  There are agencies where children can
    be adopted by single parents.  Good luck.