Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    re:.1
    
    Did it occur to you that fear of rejection is what prevents a lot
    of men from asking women out? Everything you say could just as
    easily come from the mouth (or fingers) of a man. I know that I've
    been in that situation.
    
    A man not asking a woman out isn't necessarily a sign that he's
    not interested in doing so.
    
    I think the point of the questions is "Why should the burden of
    initiating dates be placed solely on the men's shoulders?"
    
    --- jerry

    Why wouldn't I ask a man out?  Maybe it's different now, but in
    my younger days when I was unattached (which wasn't *that* long
    ago, I'm thinking of 5 to 10 years ago), I tried.
    
    Here's the comments you get from people for it:
    
    "Don't just *throw* yourself at him!" or
    "She just *threw* herself at him!"

    "You're going to look *desperate*!"  or
    "She must be desperate."
    
    "You'll look cheap." or
    "She's cheap."
    
    These comments play upon one's fears of rejection and sense of worth.
    This is a *big* issue for younger women and girls.  It was for me
    back then.
    
    In most of these situations, you probably don't know the man very
    well to begin with, so you can't really very well judge whether
    he will simply reject you (okay to do) or whether he will reject you
    and think any of the above nasty things (*not* okay to do).
    
    I remember in high school (this was 11 years ago), I had this guy
    calling me almost every night of the week.  One night I called him.
    He was surprised to have a girl call him.  He said so.  I was chilled
    out and we didn't talk very long.  It doesn't take *very* many episodes
    like that to impress upon me that I just won't do the asking.  It's
    not just *rejection* I'm risking, but a questioning of a lot of
    other things about me too!
    
    I remember seven years ago I wanted to ask a man out whom I had
    recently met and with whom I worked.  I talked it over with my cousin
    and she listened to me for a while, but said it was probably better
    that I didn't ask him out.  She wasn't telling me not to, but thought
    it was better if I didn't.  So I didn't.
    
    Excuse me while I put on my cynical hat, but I don't think that
    society or many collective individuals have progressed very much
    on this situation.  These outdated impressions don't go away very
    easily unless we *all* take the time to examine them and the above
    statements for the worthlessness that they are.  I mean, I think
    most of us in this notesfile think it's okay to ask a man out, but
    what do we really think when a woman we know does that?

    	cynically yours,    
    	-Ellen

    
    re:  .3      
    
    Seems to me that lots of people worry too much about
    "what people will think" or "what people will say"...
    
    Who the H*ll cares what other people think??  As long as
    *you* know *why* you asked him out, who cares??  
    
    And as for "rejection"....will it kill you to hear a "No, 
    thank you??" 
    
    Or maybe I'm just "different"!   I see nothing wrong with
    asking a man for a date...maybe it's wise to find out if 
    he's married, or going with someone else first...but other 
    than that... 
    
    	My
           

    >most of us in this notesfile think it's okay to ask a man out, but
    >what do we really think when a woman we know does that?

    I'd think she's smart enough to know what she wants and not willing
    to settle for just whatever she gets.
    
    I've asked men out more often than the other way around.  The last
    time I did that I ended up marrying him (and *I* asked ;-)).
    
    Anyone that couldn't handle me asking them out would also not be
    very likely able to handle the rest of my irrepressible personality,
    either :-)
    
    Anyone who would label me cheap or desperate (I'm not, thanks) for
    asking someone out is not going to have an easy time with me, anyway.
    Why worry about what such people think of one particular subset of
    my behavior?
    
    My selfworth and my acceptance of my nature is more important to
    me than whatever anyone else has to say about me.  
    
    Rita
    

    I don't consider that the possiblity of rejection would seriously
    destroy me, after all, I am well aware that not every man that I meet
    is attracted to me, and most men are polite and the worst the he
    might say to me is "No, thank you" - I can handle that........ 
    
    so I say, what the heck, GO FOR IT!
    
    Sandie

    
    	In theory, I see nothing wrong whatsoever about asking a
    	man out on a first date (and I have done it at various
    	times in my life, usually when I had tickets to something
    	or had some sort of event/invitation where a date was
    	encouraged/expected.)
    
    	Most often, I have initiated relationships in other ways
    	(other than getting up my courage and asking for a real
    	date.)  Whether I am asking or being asked, I feel much
    	more comfortable with a more casual approach (such as
    	spending initial time in the company of friends, or
    	spending an afternoon together outdoors, or having the
    	person drop by for an evening with myself and my son.)
    
    	The only thing I really object to is the idea that I've
    	seen expressed that it is somehow unfair to men that we
    	aren't asking them out on proper first dates more often.
    	My feeling is that it is perfectly OK to ask a man out,
    	but that no person (male or female) should be told that
    	there is some sort of obligation to do so (out of fairness
    	to the opposite sex.)
    
    	I've encouraged my son to date (and meet girls) and I guess
    	he is managing to get to know a few because the phone literally
    	rings off the hook every day with calls from young teenage
    	women.  I've never told him that he should date because it
    	would be unfair to teenage girls if he didn't.  (Being a
    	teenager, you can guess how far I'd get with him if I put
    	it that way.)  :-}
    
    	He meets girls and spends time with them because it is
    	something that is important to him.  His dates are not normally
    	"proper" first dates because he doesn't have his license yet.
    	But that hasn't slowed him down much (and the girls who are
    	wearing out our phone don't seem to be discouraged by it
    	either.)
    
    	People tend to find ways to get together (whether they engage
    	in true dating behavior or not.)  Most of us are driven to
    	seek love/companionship from the sex that we are drawn to,
    	so we manage to work it out no matter who asks or doesn't
    	ask.
    
    							Suzanne...

    
    	<------ .7
    
    	P.S.  The ideas I mentioned (that I'd seen expressed) were
    	not spoken of in this conference.
    
    

    I have to agree with Eagles, if you want a date with a man that
    appeals to you - go for it.  And I think that can apply to
    most anything in your life.  There are people who wait to
    see what happens and then there are people who make things happen.
    
    So I guess I can say that I would not have a problem initiating
    a date, if I were attracted to the man.
        

    		-Dotti.

    
    	One encouraging thought -- it appears that the overwhelming
    	majority of men who expressed an opinion in mennotes said
    	that they would like for women to ask them out.
    
    	For women who want to ask men out, that should be great
    	news!!
    
    							Suzanne...

    If I want to get together with someone, I'll ask.  Its not so difficult.
    
    Standard lines include:
    
    1. Want to go for ice cream later on??
    
    2. What a nice day for a (hike or bike ride or walk), wanna join
    me??
    
    The worst that can happen is he'll say no and thats really not so
    bad, is it???
    And if he says yes, then that opens the door to a new friendship. 
                                                                     
    Just my two cents!
    
    nmw   ;^)

    Re: .13
    
    In my dating days I tended to use that approach, too.  I would lurk
    around (legitimately, of course ;-) the places where studying, normal
    gathering, etc., took place and announce after a while that I was
    going for coffee, for a beer, for a walk, whatever, and would the
    guy care to join?  I got rebuffed more often than not, it's true,
    but my social skills were not all that hot in those days, nor was
    my appearance, so I guess them's the breaks.
    
    I, too, also worried about being thought too desperate, too cheap,
    too forward, too pushy.  What I felt was not that I really _was_
    all these things, but annoyance (which could approach downright
    rage) that this was an automatic judgement.  An automatic judgement,
    I might add, that my female friends levelled at me, not the males.
    Even the guys who turned me down looked surprised and pleased.
    
    Marcia

    
    
    		She's back.....
    
    
    I have asked men out in the past, I will now and I plan on
    doing it in the future.  If I get rejected, I get rejected.
    
    I guess I it is just that I am not willing to wait to be
    noticed by anyone.
    
    _peggy
    
    (-)
     |
    		Bold Bash person
    
    

	Peggy,

	I wish more women had the same attitude.  I've talked to
	women, who say that, "Well, it's the man's job to ask",
	and others have said "It will make me look cheap"....Well,
	sorry, but I have a good friend, that made the first move 
	on me.  We have become very close special friends.  If
	she never did, we would have never met. WHY?  She is very
	pretty, and I'm shy, at first.

			Mike

    
    
    Yeah I meant brash (fingers don't work so well at home), but
    people who know me would say bash.  Both work for me.
    
    _peggy
    
    		(-)
    		 |	Now if I could only figure out
    				where all the r's go
    

     >   * Why don't you ask men out?
      
    Why was this question loaded?  Who's been telling you I don't  :-) ?
    
    
    *****
    
    WELL, in general, if you ask me why I'm not asking any men out at
    this instant in time, my answers are
    
    		1.  There aren't any in the room.
    
    		2.  I'm busy.
    
    		3.  The ones here don't interest me.
    
    		4.  I'm broke.                              
    
    
    *****
    
	    * When did you stop asking leading questions?   :-)

    re .19
    
    I'm sorry that you felt the question was loaded, it was not intended
    as such.  It was worded from the opinion that most women do not
    ask men out.
    
    Rich

    re .20
    
    Yes, that's what I meant.  Why presume so?
    
    Perhaps the question was not directed at me.  If so, you should
    be more explicit.