Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    I would repeat Lee's plea that any flames be directed at the issues
    and not the participants.
    
    This has the potential to be an incredibly rewarding topic if only we
    can *all* remember on *every* side of the argument that our perceptions
    and fears don't necessarily represent Eternal Truths..._and_ that the
    conversation is with (and perhaps about) our respected Sisters and
    Brothers --friends and colleagues, not some faceless and valueless
    "them".  As ever, our goal should be understanding, not injury. 
    
    						in Sisterhood,
    						=maggie

    Well, after writing a .1, setting it hidden, deleting it, trying
    again in a .2, I'm changing my mind again.  Maggie said she didn't
    see the explosives in the original attempt, and a male who had seen
    it before my deletion liked it better than the abbreviated version,
    so I'm re-entering the "first pass", hoping that it won't get me
    into trouble again.  Maybe the fireworks are all in my head.
    Nevertheless, NEXT UNSEEN if you're feeling defensive today, 'cause
    I don't really want to get torched right now.
    
    
    I can't really define macho.  Offhand, I'd say it's a way of asserting
    power, remining another of their weakness, and it is done in a very,
    very male way.  Reminding everybody within a hundred feet that "I am
    MAN!! I have POWER!!! I have P***S!!! You are NOT MAN!  You are WEAK!!
    You have no P***S!!!!" [or a very little one if the posturing is aimed
    at another man] 
    
    When I see people acting macho, my reaction is pretty negative,
    sort of a mental sneer.  At other times, it inspires pure fear in
    me.
    
    But then again, I know that at times, I can be very, very macho.
    [No, I don't try to convince everybody I have a p***s]
    In some weird way, it can be very fun, swaggering around entirely
    confident of my power and strength.
    
    I don't think it is limited to men, but is becoming more and more
    a trait that can be found in women.  Whether or not we are trained
    to believe we *are* powerful, we are trained in just how that power
    can be expressed.  Many, many women have said that to win at a man's
    game you have to learn their rules; maybe to display power and
    confidence we automatically do it in a way that is traditionally
    male.  But in the macho-woman, there is no linking of gender and
    power.  It expresses power and weakness in the typical swaggering
    way, but there is no association of genitals and power.
    
    Bad?  Very. Transparent, too.  Seems to me to be more an expression of
    a *lack* of power, a front to erect to bolster up one's sense of
    confidence, to remind yourself that indeed you ARE powerful, that you
    CAN do what you want whether or not someone else likes it.  It shows
    that someone doubts their power or manhood sooooooo much that he
    has to resort to a stupid game.
    
    But on the other hand, some of the expressions of macho are protective.
    For example, wanting to go beat up someone who just hurt a sister or
    wife (or mother, or...). Is that good?  Or is it just one more subtle,
    subconscious manipulation: I want to protect you because I love you,
    and I also think you are too weak/stupid to be able to protect
    yourself.  Which of the messages comes through louder, the loving
    protective impulse, or the reminder of weakness? 
    
    Now Dana suggested a female parallel.  I _don't_ think it is a woman
    acting macho; that is a very male thing, and those of us who _do_
    act that way on occasion are often accused (not outright, but it
    is implied) of being very "butch".
    
    [not a slur on lesbianism, rather a reference to the idea that a
    "butch" woman _really_ wishes she were a man.  I do not think that
    being homosexual means you wish you were a member of the opposite sex,
    not at all.  Gay men are entirely male, gay women are entirely female,
    and none of them wishes they were not.]
    
    So is there something, some role, some game we play, with which
    we express our power?  With which we express another's weakness?
    Is there a way that we translate our womanhood into power?
    
    "Feminine Wiles" has been suggested, but I have no experience
    whatsoever with those: I am very female and not at all feminine,
    and none of the women I know and/or love have ever tried simpering
    at me or tried to manipulate me in a traditionally "feminine" way.
    
    My instinct is not to believe in "feminine wiles" as they are outside
    the realm of my experience, but if you all _really_ think they're
    there I won't argue any further.  I would suggest nevertheless that
    there may be something else, some other way that we manipulate others
    into positions of weakness.  Perhaps by ridiculing macho behavior:
    the caricature of a man strutting around waving his all-powerful
    swollen manhood can be very funny, and such ridicule can be an
    extremely powerful weapon.  So much so that I avoid using it against
    even my most nasty and rotten hate-objects unless I am in a position
    of safety: hell hath no fury like a man whose penis is scorned.   :)
    
    
    Ah, it seems I cannot write about this without being offensive. So much
    for my cautionary words.  The problem is that macho-man posturing can
    be very hurtful and scary.  For a woman who feels she has power, when
    she is confronted with such behavior, a linking of power, manhood, and
    penis, she has very few choices: 1) continue to express power and she
    puts herself in a position where the man could decide to demonstrate
    that penis=power (by assaulting or raping her); or 2) accept her own
    weakness and his superior power to avoid the confrontation.  It
    is a horrible decision to have to make: I have to either submit
    and acknowledge that I am weak to every one of the quadrillion
    macho-men around, or I have to submit and be violent with every
    one of them (something which even if it were not against my principles
    would get tiresome very, very quickly), or I have to allow them
    to rape me (in one way or another).
    
    And my power can be an explosive thing for a man who links his power
    and his male identity so strongly, even if only temporarily.  I am
    an unwilling slap in his face, a suggestion that even though I have
    no penis I am more powerful (and therefor more male) than he.
    
    So I choose to avoid confrontation with macho-men.  Wait until the
    attack of stupidity passes and they turn into a normal human being
    again or mark them in my mind as someone to avoid.
    
    The problem is that they are EVERYWHERE!!  I can't walk down a street
    without the subtle reminders.  For an example:  I am an engineer.
    Like an engineer, I take great pleasure in looking at people make
    things.  Watching the construction of big stuff (buildings, roads,
    etc) is a lot of fun for me.  Look at a bulldozer or a crane: isn't
    it crude?  Aren't the controls amazing in their simplicity?  And
    look at the grace of what they create!  Look at the wonderous
    simplicity of the principle behind the "elephant's delight" a long
    vibrating hose used to help pour and spread concrete, a Bingham
    fluid.
    
    But the only way I can see these things is by disguising myself
    as a man.  Once, when my hair was still long and I was heavy enough
    that my curves were undisguisably female, I took a summer day to
    wander around construction sites, watching the stuff that I usually
    only got to see in passing.  Well I had to stop, because the moment
    someone noticed me, there would be hoots and hollers.  I tried again
    once after my hair was cut, but I dressed as male as possible.  As
    long as I didn't smile, no one could tell I was a woman.  I got
    noticed hanging around, but no one harrassed me.
    
    
    Lee
    
    [ps: I don't hate men.  I hate macho.  Male does not mean macho]
    

>    [ps: I don't hate men.  I hate macho.  Male does not mean macho]

    Then why do you CONSTANTLY refer to the penis when speaking
    about power/macho/men?

    Michael, are you assuming that because Lee mentioned the
    macho/power/penis link that it is HER invention?
    
    I think her note could be summed up in the same format as your question
    - "Why do MEN constantly refer to the penis when thinking about
    power?"   As in, a penis is more "powerful" than no penis, and a big
    penis is more "powerful" than a little one and this relationship
    can and will be used in any power struggle.
    
    Her note is saying that she has NOTICED, (not invented), that men
    equate power in it's most general sense with male genitalia.
    
    Ever notice the "defiant cowboy" stance that Hollywood loves?  Anthro-
    pologist Desmond Morris knows that such a full-front, spread leg
    stance is a modern "genital display" to suggest threat.  That such a
    display could/would even be equated with power is proof that men auto-
    matically and subconsciously equate relative power with relative genitalia.
    
    Lee is not inventing the concept.  She is asking how it came to
    be so.  Now no one else needs to question Lee's alleged man-hating agenda
    in this topic anymore, OK?  This is a prime example of how the
    "arguing and bickering" everyone says is rampant here gets started.
    
    Now back to the topic...
    
    

    Re .3

>    Then why do you CONSTANTLY refer to the penis when speaking
>    about power/macho/men?

    Michael, I believe that the point Lee is making is not that there
    is anything wrong with the male or female genitalia.  Rather her
    objections are aimed at the attitudes (power) which are associated with
    one's sexual identity.  As pointed out in .4 she has observed these
    associations, not originated them.  In fact, she is also not the first
    to observe them, and really they should not be shocking to anybody
    since most psychotherapists since Freud have dealt with these theories
    to some extent.

    I have reread Lee's note and do not see any references which I would
    interpret as being anti-male, although there are many which are anti-
    macho.

    Well, whether or not Lee hates men is her concern, not
    mine, nor anyone elses, I was genuinely curious about this
    association of the penis with power or macho.  Just that
    *I* never saw the connection, personally, and never really
    thought of "Crackers" as my little Uzi or anything.

    Thank you Sandy and John.
    
    Could we return to the previously scheduled topic now?
    
    What sort of behavior do YOU see as macho?  Why do YOU think it's
    there?  Do YOU see it as a totally bad thing?  What are the situations
    where YOU find yourself being macho?  Is it the same as when a man
    is macho?  What ARE "feminine wiles"?  How do they work?
    
    Lee

    LEE,
    	The following definition of "MACHO" from > THE AMERICAN HERITAGE
    DICTIONARY < represents the views of most males I wish to know.
    
    	MACHO (MACHISMO) An exaggerated sense of masculinity.
    
    		(note the keyword "exaggerated")
                
    	There are many of us (if not most) who do not need the oppression
    of childern, women, or any other group in order to find our place
    in life. 
    
    				Mark
    

    [I started to enter this on Saturday, but gave up due to the slow
    link.] 
    
    Lee, I saw your original postings, and now Maggie's note and your
    reposting, and I see nothing worthy of incendiary protection garments.
    Perhaps some of the reactions your notes have received in recent times
    have made you a bit more cautious.  I hope not - I like your honesty
    and the way you express your feelings, even if I may not always
    understand what you feel or feel comfortable with what you write.  So
    be it. 

    Anyway...  I think that "macho", as we typically use the term, is
    merely a sub-genre of a general type of power-game.  Generically, it's
    when someone uses some surface attribute of themselves, be it sex,
    race, religion, or whatever, to support their use of domination in a
    relationship. (By relationship, I mean some exchange between two
    individuals, not the romantic type necessarily.) 

    In the case of macho, it's a man who uses his maleness as the sole or
    at least primary basis for his exercise of power over another, most
    likely because he has nothing better to offer.  I really don't think
    it's an issue of who has what shape genitals, but because our society
    has taught us through the years that men are "inherently better than"
    women, men who have no better qualities to offer will sometimes resort
    to using their maleness as a symbol of divine right to power.  (And I
    don't attach any particular religious significance to the word "divine"
    here, though certainly some macho men do.) 

    I hate "macho", no matter where or in whom it appears.  Yes, women are
    starting to act macho (macha?) too - but this is perpetuating a
    silliness that should not exist in the first place.  Lee, I don't think
    you could ever act macho, at least not in the sense I take it as.  You
    have a high sense of self esteem, based on your many sterling qualities
    (are you blushing yet?)  You are also successful in a field where few
    enough men, let alone women, dare to tread.   If you show your
    self-confidence, that is not "macho".  If, however, you simply
    "strut" your power for no reason but bravado, well then....
    
    I've been trying to figure out what the real female equivalent of
    macho is.  It would be a woman using her femaleness itself as
    power.  I suppose that "feminine wiles" plays a part here, if by
    that you mean a woman using sexual attractiveness (or something
    similar) to manipulate men, but it doesn't quite have the same
    feel to me.  
    
    I need to think about this some more.  Perhaps some later replies
    will help stimulate the discussion.
    
    				Steve

    Are we using "macho" and "chauvinism" interchangeably ? Or are we
    limiting limiting the discussion to "exagerated male behavior" ?

    I am not sure whether my concept of "macho" is accurate and I don't
    really know where I got it from, but the image which comes to my
    mind when I think of macho is a man considers himself physically
    superior to others, and considers this superiority to be of utmost
    significance therefore drawing attention to it at every possible
    opportunity.

    The physical superiority is mainly physical strength, physical
    size, and sexual performance but can also include physical
    attractiveness, tolerance of pain (emotional and physical), immunity
    from fear as well as a general aversion towards any type of
    vulnerability.

    I think that the cause of it is an ingrained notion of the necessity
    of a male to be self-sufficient.  I would also expect that most 
    individuals who consistently act macho have had their virility
    challenged, which they found very humiliating and therefore will
    go to any length to see that it does not happen any more.

    Although I will not claim to be innocent of the behaviour described
    above I see it as a categorically negative thing and to some extent
    am grateful that I am never confused with Arnold Schwarzenegger nor
    with John Holmes so that I am not as easily tempted to dwell on
    my masculinity to feel self-confident.

    I think that it is entirely possible for a woman to act macho also
    and would think that it is as a result of indoctrination that males
    are superior to females.  A woman may then decide that she is not
    willing to take a subordinate role in life and engage in the immaturity
    above as a statement that she actually does belong to the "higher"
    sex even if she was given the wrong body.  I hope and think that this
    is not very common.


    RE: .10
    Macho are chauvinist are in my mind slightly different although
    highly correlated. Macho refers to ones image of oneself and the
    view one assumes of what is characteristically male.  Chauvinism
    is simpler in that it can be reduced to the concept of a male
    being emotionally, intellectually and physical superior to a female
    and therefore more suitable for positions which require decision-
    making (positions of power).

    So much for my ideas, somebody else have a go at it.

    John

    I have a female friend that became the first woman on a local police
    force.  Shortly after she had been on the force she stopped in for
    a break, she was in uniform and as she was to leave I noticed her
    'stance' was the 'cowboy stance' that someone else referred to.  So 
    I made a point the next time I saw her away from the job to see how 
    she stood.  She was her normal self.
    
    My conclusion was that macho might be considered as body language
    in positions such a police persons.  It may be necessary to project
    an image of power in situations where you have to establish leadership
    quickly.                                         
    
    Although macho is not attractive in interpersonal relationships
    I feel it is needed in positions of power.  And if we believe in
    Freud's concepts of penis and penis envy macho is going to be equated
    with sexual power.  
    
    The other issue is physical strength that is often related to macho
    behavior.  
    
    It would seem to me therefore that macho is not an issue easily
    resolved because genitalia are designed the way they are and physically
    most men are stronger than most women.
    
    Again we see something that we are uncomfortable with but we can
    find situations where the type of behavior identified is necessary
    and useful in certain situations.
    
    
    

    Well, I've been thinking about how I might reply to this topic since
    shortly after it was written.  My thoughts have stabalized, so it's
    time for my reply.
    
    I define macho as excessive posturing with the aim of impressing
    someone.  This person may or may not be of the same sex.
    
    In general, I do not enjoy macho posturing, especially when someone
    does it often.
    
    Usually I realize after the fact that I've done something in an
    attempt to impress someone.  Since it isn't something that I like
    doing, I often feel real dumb for having done so.  I prefer that
    people like/respect me for who I am, not who I might be able to
    make them think I am.
    
    I small amounts, macho isn't bad.  It allows people to show what
    they've done that they're prowd of.  But, if someone is macho all
    of the time, it is hard to know the real person.
    
    Feminine wiles?  Well, maybe.  I think that these may be the helpless
    acts that some women will put on.  Though I enjoy someone asking me to
    help them when they are truly having trouble with something, I can
    develop a very low opinion of someone who seems to not to be able to do
    anything for themself.

    
    Rich

I liked the definition in 521.8, "an exaggerated sense of masculinity."

Macho behavior is annoying because, if one is busy being macho, one can't
see what really ought to be done.  I watched an "ideal" family of four in
McDonald's a few months ago, and the father and young son talked football
for 30 minutes straight while mother and young daughter sat in silence,
eyes down, eating their hamburgers. It was grotesque. 

One of my brothers had a favorite chant, "If any of dem guys boder you kid,
lemme know 'n I'll take care of em."  Frustrating on several counts. He
could speak standard English when he wanted, but he spoke Demish (as in
"dem is my favorite") because it felt macho to him.  I feel that the way he
embraced the Demish/macho cult has lost many things for him.  Also, I
worked like dog five months a year to get my college money.  He could have
given me a full year at college with one week's salary.  Alas, machismo
doesn't include sending your sister to college.  So I got off my duff and
did it myself. 

For the record, a comic in Boston, Tom Hands (or Hanks) does a 30 minute
act that consists of *I"M A MAN, DAMNIT, AND I DON'T GO FOR NONE OF THAT
FOREPLAY OR CHILDREN BUSINESS."  His persona is the super-macho, and it
makes people w*e*e*p with laughter because it is so ludicrous. 

Likewise, Femmo is "an exaggerated sense of femininity."  
Femmo is a person who ...

is too damn delicate to pick up the paper towel she dropped on the 
public washroom floor.

purposely drops the ball because she thinks it looks cute.

asks for help when changing the typewriter ribon ... for the 105th time.

won't say hello or dance with someone who does not score ten plus.

always give him the wheel and the car keys, regardless of everything.

is too damn polite to say "stop being a gruff big brother and lend me the 
damn money to go to college, ya big lummox."

Yes, I've caught myself being both macho and femmo.

Post macho, I wonder if I offended anyone. 
Post femmo, I hate myself for being a wimp.               Meigs

    re .12 The female cop. I find myself 'putting on' a certain amount
    of machismo in some situations. usually in response to a crowd of
    other men doing likewise. Protective coloration ? "Hey, I'm one
    of the guys, too' ?  Probably. Sort of a body_language uniform.
    *NOT* meant as a putdown of women. 
    
    Re.14 "femmo" chuckle,chortle, Thanks, Meigs  8-)
    
    
    Dana

	Meigs touched on it in .14, but "macho", to my perception, also
	included a sort of deliberate insensitivity.  As in, people's 
	*feelings* are beneath my notice because I'm macho and a person of
	*action*.  

	Not that a macho person would deliberately go out of their way
	to hurt or insult someone, they just wouldn't (shouldn't? :-) try
	to be considerate of their feelings... or acknowledge that they
	have any of the so-called gentler ones.

	Would "Femmo" (to borrow the term) then, be the opposite: someone
	who *won't* act on their own behalf or who [feels they should] always 
	react emotionally or seductively?  (please attach lotsa smiley faces)

		Helen

    <--(.14)
    
    Meigs, I think you've just invented a new term!  Your "Femmo" is
    priceless, I all but strangled on the mouthful of tea I was drinking
    when I got to that part of your response.  Beautiful!  Spot ON!
    
    						=maggie

    Huzzah! A new word! The language changes to include women even as
    we (*ahem*) speak! Excellent points, too, Meigs.
    
    RE: the female cop. 
    
    Really reinforces the idea of how body language projects a person
    as "in control" or "not in control" vis-a-vis an old discussion
    here about women's body language and being victims.<semi-rathole,
    here, but then all things are connected, right?>
    
    -DE
    

    re .14:
    
    I like the "Demish" term also.  That's great, I have three younger
    brothers who talk that way.  I'll get on the phone with the middle one
    and I can't understand a word he's saying.  I'll have to ask him
    to repeat three times what he was trying to say.
    
    I suspect that the "Demish" mumbling is part of a macho act.  They all
    act a little bit macho at times.  I jokingly refer to them as "the
    bums".  (They're not really bums).
    
    	-Ellen

    
    
    
    
    
    
    		    "I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK..."
                    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    I was thinking about this one over the past few days.  I have some
    friends (male) who are in college.  They like doing certain macho
    things, like pretending to do karate (which none of them really
    knows) and a peculiar sport called "head-butting".  
    
    Both males take the stance where they face each other, arms out in
    front, heads down.  They run at each other and butt heads...hard. A
    loud noise is heard.  Both try not to groan.  If they are still able,
    they do so again, until one admits defeat.  Overheard at one point was
    the remark from one of them "You can't beat me at headbutting, I used
    to beat my bare head against brick walls." (spoken in a terribly
    fierce, macho voice).  The response from one of the non-participants
    was ," oh, that explains it" (jokingly alluding to the man's lack of
    mental capacity).  "Yeah, doesn't it?" replied the brickbrain, utterly
    oblivious to the fact that he had just been insulted.
    
    I think masculine and macho are different things, and I would hope
    that a man who is secure enough in his masculinity doesn't have
    to swagger to "show the world how male he is" - for if he is secure
    in his maleness, the world already knows who and what he is.
    
    -Jody
     

    
     A number of people are trying to verbalize at what the term "macho"
     means or depicts to them. The old expression of a picture is worth
     a thousand words, and at the risk of stereotyping. I think that
     one should select a character portrayed from a film or well known
     play to be an example of the mind set of the word.
    
     The person that quickly comes to mind would be the leader of the
     bike pack played by Brando in the wild one.
    
                                   BB

    
    	A 'cute' topic for this notes file.  The word macho derives
    from the Spanish machismo, meaning strong or assertive masculinity,
    and very closely describes most of the 'latin' type males among
    whom I grew up.  Is it 'wrong' or 'bad'?  I don't think so.  A number
    of women I know still want their men to be macho.  I don't know
    why and don't particulary care.  Each of us must choose our partners
    and friends by our own values.
    
    	I don't believe their is a direct relationship between being
    macho and having a penis fixation.  Very few men I have known measure
    themselves by their organs - either size or agility with same, neither
    the macho types nor the 'others.'  
    
    	Macho does, in my opinion, describe a male who is quite taken
    with himself.
    
    	Males who measure their worth or power via their penises are
    simply immature.  Some are macho and some are 'others.'
    
    Douglas

RE: .16

I think you put the handle on it exactly!

Jim.

    Re .22, in regard to a character from a movie symbolizing macho.
     It's interesting that you mentioned Marlon Brando as a bikey because
    that's not the type that pops into my mind.  The first person that
    pops into my mind at the word macho is John Wayne in all of his
    movies, whether Westerns or Vietnam or WWII.  He was always the
    strongest and the toughest and bravest.  (I couldn't stand him myself.)
     
    The 2nd image that comes to my mind is the scene in "Easy Rider"
    where the two rednecks in the pick-up truck gun down Dennis Hopper
    and Peter Fonda.  The rednecks in the pick-up truck with the shot
    gun are the macho ones.
    
    I realize I do have a very negative idea of what macho means.  When
    I think of macho I think of men who drive pick-up trucks, carry
    guns, wear workboots, flannel shirts, jeans, and some kind of hat,
    drink a lot of beer, smoke cigarettes (but never grass), never read,
    hold conversative political views, are secretly prejudiced against
    blacks, jews, and lesbians, speak inarticulately but don't think
    it matters because they are physically strong, love porn movies
    and magazines, always cheat on their women, but would consider a
    woman who cheats to be a slut, spends an inordinate amount of time
    hanging out in a local bar with his buddies.....wait...I think I'm
    going to be sick in my wastebasket!!!!
    
    I realize that's a stereotype but that's what comes to my mind when
    I hear the word macho.  
    
    Lorna
     

    in re Lorna ....it maybe a steriotype but it is the image that
    macho raises in my mind also.
    
    Bonnie

    
     RE .25  What you have described Lorna, is the perfect stereotype
             of whats is commonly called your typical redneck. He is
             but one kind of the total spectrum of beings (male and
             female) that come under the "macho" label.
    
             I would have a tendency to disagree with your idea that
             John Wayne represented total macho. There were a lot of
             times when he was perceptive and nice to women.
    
                                           Bob B 

    Re .27, John Wayne was always nice to women, I think.  At least
    if they were young and/or pretty.
    
    What I didn't like is that to me he glorified suffering, pain and
    horror.  His movies made it seem like it would be quite a lark to
    die in a battle, when in reality from I've read and heard most men
    dying in battle are screaming for their mothers to save them.  His
    movies made war look like fun, a good way to brain wash little boys
    into wanting to enlist and die for their country.  
    
    I dunno, I just didn't like the character he always played - the
    "I can be cruel but let me be gentle with you" attitude towards
    women.  
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna, Bob, Bonnie (and I'd like to thank my mother, father, 
    producer, cinematographer.............). I can agree with all
    your definitions and perceptions of who or what is macho.
    
    I do think that Brando in "The Wild Ones" was macho. John Wayne,
    in most of his western roles was macho. His character in "The
    Quiet Man" with Maureen O'Hara, I think, was not.
    
    To me what signifies macho, in addition to all the stereotypes
    mentioned earlier, is the total inability of a man to *show* any
    feelings of tenderness, mercy, love. He may *feel* all of these,
    but, by God, he'll be damned if he dares *show* any of these. 
    
    In "Urban Cowboy", John Travolta's character, Bud, reeked of macho.  
    He had to show Sissy (and the world) just how tough he was. And
    when they had split, he wanted her back soooo bad, but he could
    never admit it openly to her, until the end when they reconcile.
    
    In my theory of things, macho men do love, have fears, feel both
    physical pain and mental anguish, have tender feelings, even cry.
    But....only they, in their own heart of hearts know that they have
    the capacity to possess these emotions. If anyone else even remotely
    suspected this of the macho man, he'd be forced to kill himself
    or the person who discovers his secret. (No, not literally. I hope.)
    
    As to what I think defines "femmo" (I do like that word), one image
    pops immediately into my head: A woman, standing by her car pulled
    over to the side of an Interstate, looking forlornly at a flat tire
    on the wounded beast. She makes no attempt to open her trunk, find
    a jack, a lug wrench, the spare and begin. She just stands there,
    looking, hoping. And soon her prayers are answered. Depending upon
    her physical attributes, she'll quickly have 8 males from 8 different
    cars by her side. One jacks up the car, the second finds the spare,
    the third undoes one lug bolt, the fourth undoes the second lug
    bolt.....
    
    In the worst of circumstances, she might have to wait for a cop
    to come, but even so, her tire will get changed for her.
    
    Now that's femmo.
    
      Alan 
          

    Now that everyone has had their great time making fun of Macho and
    Femmo I guess it is about time for someone to come along and make
    an attempt to defend them.
                                               
    It is certainly very easy to make fun on Macho.  It is a little bit
    harder to cast Macho as a source of true evil.  I expect it will
    be very much harder to defend it.  I would not even think of trying
    except for the fact that it is one of my pet peeves.  With that in
    mind and asbestos suit just fresh back from the cleaners:
    

        ------ The Defense of Macho ------
    
    If Macho is so dumb and destructive, why does it still exist?  Would
    you not think that macho men would wise up and change their ways
    in a day if they knew how dumb they look?  Do you really believe
    that all these men don't know it's dumb to act macho?
    
    So why do they do it?
    
    *BECAUSE IT WORKS* !!!!!!!
    
    I am sure that most women, even those who date only the most macho
    men, think that the behavior is dumb and hate it at times.  It seems
    as though what they think is not important.  What is important is
    how they respond.  Most macho men continue their behavior because
    they can find women (and men) who will respond to it the way they
    want them to.
    
    To avoid being hard on women, I think that most men respond to macho
    too.  It is much easier to intimidate another man into not competing
    with you than it is to actually compete with him.  The weaker man
    may think in the back of his mind "It's just a front" but he may
    decide that he is not willing to risk testing it.
    
    I continually hear complaints from women about the behavior of their
    macho boyfriends.  Does this mean that she will scorn the football
    players and go for the class wimp because of his sensitivity?
    Of course not!
    
    What happens to the guys that take women at their word and try to
    be sensitive.  They get ignored, of course.  They also get the
    "I just want to be friends" speech.  Does it sound like I may have
    gotten that speech once or twice?  You betcha..
    
    
    Lets try to look at this from a more scientific point of view. 
    
    What is the advantage to being insensitive?
    
    Someone did a study of basket ball players to determine the connection
    between sensitivity and aggressiveness.
    
    First, they observed the players in a basket ball game and rated
    on a scale for aggressiveness.  After the game they gave the players
    a test to determine their degree of sensitivity and empathy for
    other people.  When the two scores were studied they found a large
    correlation between high aggressiveness and low sensitivity and
    vice versa.
    
    Any young man who observes the reaction of the women to the men
    on the team can see that the women are choosing the men who perform,
    not the men who show sensitivity.
    
    I think that macho goes far beyond the effects of the environment
    that a young man grows up in.  I believe that a strong component
    of nature is there too.
    
    I don't lend a lot of faith in sociobiology to explain all of human
    behavior.  Human beings are, by their nature, learning machines.
    Most all of their behavior is learned.  However, I believe that the parts
    of their behavior that are still based on instinct are the most
    basic and oldest behaviors.  Sex falls into this category.
    
    Many, many male animals put on displays and compete with other males
    to win the sexual favor of the females.  I believe that these
    behaviors still exist in men today.  We call it macho.  It still
    causes the same type of reaction in women as it does in other animals.
    The winner gets the girl. (The plot to 1 * 10**6 movies and romance
    novels)
    
    
    In .2 Lee charges that the macho behaviors are an intentional (though
    subconscious) attempt to oppress women.  I do not doubt that there
    are many men who use their macho for that purpose.  I believe that
    most men are unconsciously trying to put themselves on display and
    trying to elicit a positive sexual reaction.
    
    Many times I notice myself displaying a macho reaction around a woman
    that I find attractive.  I don't go through a long thought process to
    decide that macho is the best choice among a wide number of
    alternatives.  I just find myself doing it.  I see it most often when I
    am in my car and I am pulling away from an area where an attractive
    woman is standing.  I find myself pushing a little bit harder on the
    gas, running the engine out a few more revs, popping into second, and
    taking turns a little bit faster and squeaking the tires a bit. 
    A second or two later I'm asking myself "Why did I do that?" 
    
    If I sneeze during someone's speech, it is not a subconscious remark
    on what the speaker has to say.  I believe that my displays of macho
    also are not a subconscious effort to keep women down.  I believe
    that I try to stifle my sneezing and my macho.  I don't always succeed.
    I find it annoying when people cast negative thoughts into my head
    to explain such things.
    
    It is very hard to keep control of my macho impulses when I am missing
    out and the macho men are winning.
    
    This note is long enough. I think I will leave "feminine wiles" to
    another note. 
    
    			   		MJC O->

    
    re -.1
    
    Thats what I got flamed for saying some time ago...
    
    
    BTW - do battered Japanese 4x2 trucks w/o big wheels
          or brush guards automatically count as macho?
          Some of us actually live where cars find it 
          rough going. Also its interesting that noone mentioned
          gun racks...

    re -2
    
    Thanks for writing such a long and thoughtful note

    
         Re: .30
    
         Good Lord, what a well-written entry!!  I must commend your
    ability to relate your ideas in a logical and grammatically correct
    way.  It will indeed be difficult to oppose what you have said,
    for the simple reason that it was VERY WELL SAID.
    
                               Greg
    
    
    PS: Sorry I couldn't say whether or not I agree, I was just too
        impressed to do so, right now.
    

    Re .30, what a dissapointment to realize that Larry Bird must be
    an insensitive, uncaring bastard - and he looks so cute out on the
    court :).
    
    By the way, "femmo" works, too.  
    
    Lorna
    

	RE: .30

	Well, just because something "works" doesn't mean it's right.
	If some men are only interested in getting certain types of women
	interested in them, then yes, they should continue their macho
	behavior.  I think that a lot of the replies from women in this 
	topic are saying that it won't work with them.  Macho men won't 
	get their interest.


	I believe the reason that a lot of women are interested in
	"macho" men is that that is how we are all socialized.  Hey,
	I admit that I used to love John Wayne and James Bond movies.
	I still do, but not as much.  I would hate to be one of the
	women in the movies.  I still like to look at men with nice
	bodies, but I don't feel that's enough for a relationship.
	A man acting macho to impress me will get my attention, but
	I won't take him seriously.  Hey, it's not easy to find
	someone to have a relationship with.  I won't settle for
	something that's all surface.  

	You're right that machismo isn't all bad.  We all do things
	to try and get someone's attention.   However, there are
	levels of macho.  You might rev your engine to get a woman's
	attention, but please don't open your window and tell her you'd
	like to f*** her.

	...Karen

    "I like chicken.  Fried.  Best bottle o' wine in the house!"
    
    Aren't his characters always the embodiment of stereotypical machismo?
    Strong, silent, emotionally empty and always ready for sex.
    
    Macho posturing is always funny to me too.  Dave Barry calls it
    "rooster mode" and I've seen lots of it from 11 years of bartending.  
    
    Most young guys strut and prance when they're out and must always 
    acknowledge the presence of a female when another male is around
    either by elbowing each other or insulting her in some loud way or
    both.  Not many opportunities to "be male" are turned down by young 
    guys.  Fortunately, most outgrow the more obvious macho displays but 
    we all love to watch Clint squint and say "Well, DO ya... punk?!"
    
    I grew up among machismo Latins too, (the last name is mine!), and
    I found their obsession with maleness and their dread of femaleness silly 
    even then.  I've got a sweet guy who isn't into sports, (well ok, he 
    watches the Celtics when they're setting some kind of record or
    whatever it is they do), who's warm, open and sensitive.  My family 
    doesn't understand it but that doesn't surprise me.  I just smile to 
    myself.
    
    My best friend was once seeing a gorgeous, Latin-looking charmer and
    my parents openly expressed that that's the kind of guy they'd like
    to see me with.  Of course he used to beat the tar out of her and
    cheat on her like crazy.  He knew his looks would let him get away
    with it.  Sure mom, that's for ME!
    
    Give me the quiet intellect standing in the back of the room every
    time!
    
    "Femmo".  Great term - great note!

    
    
    	Let's hear it for Wall Flowers!
    
    

    
    RE .36
    
    AMEN!
    
    I have a quiet and intelligent SO [well, he's quiet sometimes ;-)]
    and I love it.  He'll watch an occasional baseball game and can
    swing a mean bat, but he is no where near "macho".  He is sensative
    and caring and treats me like a princess.
    
    I can't STAND guys that wear shirts unbuttoned to their navel [to
    show off all their body hair], think Vitalis is still the in look,
    wear those itty bitty swim suits with their big beer belly hanging
    over the top and call me Babe...you know, much louder than surrounding
    conversations, "Hey BABE! Where you BEEN all my life?" announcing
    to the world that this guy THINKS he has it all together.  bleh
    
    If I can redefine "macho":  A man who dares to make me dinner. 
    ;->
    
    B

    Macho doesn't work so well on me.  I look for intelligence, empathy,
    warmth, good looks doesn't hurt but no studded leather please...
    
    actually, there are few things in this world that can utterly melt
    my heart.  One of them is a man crying softly...a man who is not
    afraid to show he is human. 
    
    -Jody
    
    p.s.  disclaimer:  men who are not afraid to show they are human
    don't necessarily have to cry, but it's a rewarding feeling to know
    I am needed as the comforter sometimes.
      
    

    Re .32,.33
    
    Oh Gee, thanks...I'm not used to being complemented on my writing.
    
    Re .35 
    
    	> If some men are only interested in getting certain types of women
	> interested in them, then yes, they should continue their macho
	> behavior.  
    
    It is true that macho tends to attract "certain types" of women.
    Many men are only looking for quantity not quality.  Macho is more
    likely to get them that than some other more delicate approach.
    
    > I think that a lot of the replies from women in this topic are saying
    > that it won't work with them.

    I tend to find that I am attracted to women who don't respond to
    macho too well.  I think that most men who resort to macho because
    it is not clear that there are other options that will work.
    
    If you are one of those women who go for the non-macho men, what
    is it that these men do to attract your attention?
    

    					MJC O->

    re .30:	Mike, Great note!  I think your explanation shows that you
		are a sensitive person.
    
    re .31:	Bob, the answer is no.  Trucks and gun racks don't
    		automatically mean "macho" to me.  I admit that it took
    		my boyfriend to teach me this.  He owns guns, but is
   		not in any way "macho".  We're also thinking about buying
    		a truck (or Jeep, if we can afford it) together.  Uh oh,
	    	does that mean I'm displaying "macho".  Shucks, I just
    		think having and driving a truck would be fun.
    
    	-Ellen

    Re: .38
    
    Becky, if *I* cooked you dinner (anything_but_the_most_simple),
    *you* would have to be macho to eat it!
    
    Bruce 

    okay, who is goint to attempt the dissrtation on FEMME.
                                            
    I was about to extract the discourse on MACHO to re-write it using
    anonymns [isn't that the one that means opposites?] but succummnd
    to the domination of those words I gave in/up/whatever.....
    
    

    RE: .42

    Interesting comment, Bruce.  Do you see what I see?
    You are [not just you, everyone really] equating MACHO with
    BRAVERY.  Men are raised to BE BRAVE and to attempt things
    [in a competative way] that other men don't so it is not
    too surprising to see that MACHO is equated with bravery.

    

    
    On macho and femmo (love that word :-)):
    
    I think that sometimes the stereotypical images must be taken very
    carefully.  For example, the "femmo" example of of the woman who
    stands and waits for someone else to change her tire.
    
    Well, I loathe changing tires.  If I am by by myself and get a flat,
    I will indeed change my tire...unless some cretin where I got the
    tire has neglected my instructions to *not* put the lug nuts on
    with an airgun (imagine, if you will, one five foot tall 100lb person
    jumping up and down on the wrench trying to get those #$%@ things
    off!) in which case I have no choice but to flag down help.  I don't
    care if it's a man or a woman, as long as they've got stronger arms
    than I have!  And if there's someone else in the car, I will beg,
    plead. grovel, bribe and do all sorts of embarrassing things to
    get them to change my tire.  Again, doesn't matter if it's a man
    or a woman, so long as it's not me!  (And if you *really* hate doing
    it as much as I do, we'll flip a coin, ok?)
    
    Is this femmo?  I don't think so, I think I just have an aversion
    to changing tires :-)
    
    On the other hand, if you want extra memory chips installed in your
    PC, or need help feeding antibiotics to your 10' angry python, I've
    no problem doing that.
    
    Does that make me macho?  I don't think so, I think that those are
    things I'm competent and comfortable with.
    
    It worries me some that in striving not to be "macho" or "femmo"
    we may neglect to appreciate that there are things we are (as
    individuals) good at and things we are not so good at.
    
    For example; if asked for directions to my house, I will always say,
    "Hey ask my husband".  It isn't because men give better directions
    than women, it's because *I* as an *individual* give lousy directions
    and do not wish to see my friends driving all over Central
    Massachusetts because I gave lousy directions.
    
    A woman who fixes her car because she can and she enjoys it is being
    competent.
    
    A woman who insists on attempting to fix  her car even though she
    doesn't have the training or desire and just doesn't want to look
    "femmo" by asking someone else is engaging in "macho" posturing.
    (I did this, and I could kick myself for it.  My mechanic appreciated
    the extra business in cleaning up my mess, though:-))
    
    (You may feel free to insert "man" for "woman" in the above statements,
    and to insert <desired activity> in place of "fixing car" as well.
    I think it holds water in any case, these are just examples of *my*
    experiences.)
    
    One of my *personal* goals for *human* liberation is to ensure that
    we all *as individuals* are permitted do do the the things we enjoy
    and are skilled at, and that we are not required to do those things
    we are not skilled at and do not enjoy REGARDLESS OF WHAT IS DICTATED
    by "rules" for how we are to behave according to gender.
    
    And one last thing:  there, unfortunately, exists a need for macho
    posturing in some places as a self defense mechanism.  If I need
    to walk through an unsavory neighborhood, I don my leather vest,
    put on my swagger, and think MACHO.  I don't get hassled.  (As one
    friend put it, "You look like you're carrying a knife!)  As a permanant
    posture, though, I see no need for it in men or women.  I look forward
    to a better time in this society when it isn't necessary for my
    survival (the eternal optimist :-)).
    
    As for "feminine wiles", well that's another area in which I'm
    (fortunately) not competent :-)
                             
    Rita
    

    Re .45, Rita, I agree with the points you made, and I feel the same
    way about changing tires!  I have had so many people tell me that
    I should know how to change my own tires!  They don't seem to notice
    that since I am a 5' 1" tall, 94 lb., incredibly not strong person,
    I'd have trouble dragging the spare tire out never mind getting
    the lug nuts off!
    
    Also, in a previous response one woman (can't remember who) rather
    distainfully commented on women who "drop the ball" trying to look
    cute.  Maybe this is a lesson to *me* not to stereotype people and
    always assume the worst, because I always "drop the ball" when forced
    to play sports.  I hate sports, I'm not a natural athlete, and,
    yeah, I drop the ball, but not because I want to look cute!!!  Are
    you dreaming?  When I dropped the ball, Robert Redford never once
    came running up and asked me out.  Instead, other women made fun
    of me and I felt horrible about myself, and hated sports even more,
    and resented being forced to play these (to me) incredibily stupid
    games!
    
    So, maybe we shouldn't put down people too much for being macho
    or femmo.  Maybe some of them (us) are just being ourselves?  I
    guess you can't please everybody.
    
    As for feminine wiles, I know they exist and I've seen them in action.
     I believe most men are suckers for goodlooking women acting sweet
    to them, and sometimes women take advantage of that to get what
    they want or need.  A few years ago I worked with a secretary who
    was blonde and very pretty.  (I hated her guts - only joking!!!)
     Well, most of the guys (engineers & techs) were totally blown away
    by her appearance when she first came to work there.  They said
    thngs like, "Wow, what do you do to deserve a secretary like *that*?"
     In front of us other secretaries - made us feel real special, ya
    know.  Well, this secretary knew that most men found her incredibly
    attractive, but most them she wouldn't have touched with a 10 foot
    pole.  She was always going up to one of them and sweet talking
    them into doing something for her - putting something together,
    assembly something, carrying something, fixing something, you name
    it.  Finally, one guy came up to me and said, "She won't give anybody
    the time of day unless she needs something.  Then she bats her
    eyelashes.  I'll never help her out again."  I have to admit that
    made me feel good when he said that.  Well, that's one aspect of
    feminine wiles I think.
    
    Lorna
    

    In an attempt to quantify what we mean by macho, I've started a
    list of macho vs. non-macho traits. Please look on this as a start,
    and feel free (as I know you will, because it happens in every other
    note) to add/delete/change/accept/reject/flame/gush/argue.
    
    Macho           Non-macho
    
     strong           weak
     brave            timid
     active           passive
     adventurous      sedentary
     risk-taking      risk-avoiding
     loud             quiet (or soft)
     bold             cautious
     brash            sensitive
     eats steak       eats quiche
        (rare)
                                 
    Bruce 
    (my name is not part of the macho column)
    
    

    	RE:  .47
    
    	You left off a few:
    
    		MACHO                 NON-MACHO
    
    	        good                   bad
    		handsome               ugly
    		cool                   jerk
    
    	That's my subtle way of saying that you mostly put desirable
    characteristics under macho and un-desirable ones under non-macho.
    
    	In my opinion, that is not the message here at all.
    One does NOT have to be macho to be strong (and all the other
    good things you mentioned.)  Macho means that ones feels the
    need to ADVERTISE these qualities (whether one has them or not.)
    And I mean ADVERTISE LIKE CRAZY!  :-)
    
    							Suzanne....

    Adventurous
    Risk Taking
    Brave
    
    and a few others don't belong in macho - 
    
    Maybe the point isn't getting across here - as my WEBSTER's states,
    MACHO = characterised by machismo 
    
    MACHISMO = An exagerrated sense of masculinity
    
    where does risk-taking, brave, adventurous etc. fall into macho?
    
    
    re: .48 - I agree!!!!!!

re:< Note 521.40 by VINO::MCARLETON "Reality; what a concept!" >
     
 �   If you are one of those women who go for the non-macho men, what
 �   is it that these men do to attract your attention?
 
I guess what they do is act natural. They don't pretent to be something
they're not, they don't play silly games and they mind their own
business. If they tell me they like to do stuff that I like (such as camping,
traveling etc) then I would like to see that they actually do that stuff.
That's when I start to get interested, then if they wear blue-jeans, flannel
shirts and drive a 4x4 I get even more interested :-). Since I'm more of an
observer and listener than I am a talker, I've spent lots of time watching
the stereotype macho (and femme) man/woman. They're both a turn-off, but when
you think about it, these folks really are pretty comical to watch. The
best part is that they really don't know how funny they are.

Jenna (who prefers the lighter side of life)

    RE: .45 (Rita)
    
    I, too, dread the thought of having to change a tire. Fortunately,
    I've only gotten two flats on the highway, where I had no choice
    but to do it myself. I tried glowering at the offending tire, but
    that didn't work. It still remained flat :-)
    
    RE: .46 (Lorna)
    
    Then there's the stereotype that all men are supposed to love
    sports - if not actually playing them, then certainly watching on TV,
    or reading about them in the morning paper. To openly admit that
    I didn't know who won last night's game (Hell, I didn't even know
    that so-and-so was on a twenty game streak. I wasn't even sure
    what game they were supposed to be playing.) used to be tantamount
    to wearing a sign saying "I am not really a man". 
    
    RE: .47 (Bruce)
    
    I think that there's even the concept of macho names. You know,
    names like Spike or Mack or Bud. Then there's the opposite
    phenomenon, where certain names invite joking. I'm sure you
    remember when your own name, Bruce, would get ribbed on TV shows
    like Saturday Night Live. Bruce Willis of Moonlighting fame
    seems to have turned that one around.
    
      Alan 
    
    
    
    
    

    
    
    re:25 That is the image I first see when I think of macho.
    
    as for changing tires - it seems that the only time I need to
    is when it is raining, I have one heels, a wool suit and I am
    late.  That stuff you spray into the offending tire is great,
    I will probably carry it in my car forever.
    
    As for what is attract in non-macho men - Intelligence.
    
    _peggy
    		(-)
    		 |
    			Goddess how I hate to change tires.
    

    Re .51, the name Bruce & Bruce Willis, don't forget Bruce Springsteen
    (a charming combination of macho and sensitivity - he looks a little
    bit macho, but when he's interviewed he comes across as extremely
    thoughtful, sensitive and articulate).
    
    I realize that I could and probably have been attracted to men who
    would be considered macho by some people.  I'm usually attracted
    to men because of their brains, witty conversation, and liberal
    attitudes, and if some of them happened to be a little bit macho
    in other ways I probably wouldn't have minded.  But, I don't think
    of myself as being attracted to macho men because macho stuff doesn't
    impress me - guns, muscles, trucks, etc.
    
    My all time favorite movie or TV character (as far as attractive
    men go) is Hawkeye from "Mash", smart, funny & liberal.  But, I
    also found the Harrison Ford characters of Indiana Jones and Han
    Solo to be very appealing.  They were kind of macho, but Harrison
    Ford played them with a sort of sense of humor that I found appealing.
    
    Lorna
    

    I have enjoyed this topic. I always enjoy it when the term "macho"
    comes up. I try and think of all the times I TRY to be macho. It
    is as someone else said, a subconscious reaction. When I first meet
    another man I find myself talking about all the times I've been
    hurt in sports or the large quantities of beer we use to drink in
    college. When I was in High School all my friends and I were con-
    stantly fighting. It was the "thing" to do. It was like a proving
    ground. I felt like (and sometimes still do) I had to prove I was
    a "man". I am trying to recognize when I do that and nip it in the
    bud, by the way. 
    
    Somebody else talked about being a "nice" guy and how the girls
    always wanted to just be friends, I was in the same position.  
    "Oh, you're such a NICE guy, but I am really in love with Bruce"
    [Bruce, who abuses her physically and mentally but is gorgeous 
    and looks like Arnold Schwartz(etc)] I hope this has changed 
    since most of these girls were just that, girls. I guess that's
    why I thought I had to be this strange thing called macho back then,
    now I'd rather just be me.
    
    Now that brings me to another point on macho, I have always equated
    it with "show no feelings". In my feeble attempts to be macho, I
    tried so desparately to deny that which is so undeniably me:
    MY FEELINGS. I thought that was what "men" did. I watched John Wayne
    as he hardly grimaced at a gun shot wound, and thought _I_ should
    be like that.  Nowadays, I joke around about macho. I talk in a
    deep voice and walk into walls and say things like "That wall can't
    hurt a MACHO man like ME!" I gotta laugh when I find myself goin
    into macho-mode, it's just an old protection mechanism I use to
    use. I can't deny my feelings, I get scared just like any other
    human being... I even cry. Unheard of for John Wayne or Clint 
    Eastwood.
    Thanx Everyone, I enjoyed this!
    Jeff
    
    
    
    
    

    Guys, those of you who want feminine attention, but don't want to
    be a posturing rooster, but don't know what to do to attract attention,
    and often hear the "just friends" speech...here's a woman who's
    been in the same boat.
    
    I grew up with a _very_ non-femmo mom, who knew absolutely nothing
    about feminine wiles, was even contemptuous of them.  So I learnt
    zero about feminine social graces and wiles, and it did, indeed,
    hurt my young social life.  Most young men I knew, even the stolid,
    introverted, brain buckets I was attracted to, (still am) could
    not see me for beans.  They were interested in the classically lovely,
    and very femmo women.  (Perhaps they felt macho when around them?
    Could be...)  I spent quite a lonely youth until finally one stolid,
    introverted, brain bucket from MIT decided they were all fools, and
    walked down the proverbial aisle with me, snickering all the way.
    I'm very glad he did; not only is he a great guy, but it took mucho
    years of constant loving to help me feel that I was a lovable, human
    woman after all.
    
    I guess that's one thing that is so discouraging about macho and
    femmo behavior.  I was (and I'm sure some, perhaps many, guys were,
    too) made to feel that if I didn't indulge in this vapid silliness
    that I didn't have The Right Stuff to make it in the relationship
    sphere of life.  This is the equivalent of saying to a brilliant
    person that if they don't own a silk suit in this season's colors
    with the current correct lapel size and the tie just-so that they
    don't stand any chance of getting even an interview, let alone a
    job, that if you don't have all the trappings the substance doesn't
    matter at all.  I can't think of a more discouraging message to give
    to anyone, man or woman.
    
    Marcia

The lovely Swedish film "My Life as a Dog" (currently at the Harvard
Square in Cambridge) has some interesting -- but not too obvious --
commentary on the development of macho/macha.

It also has one of the great sight gags of all time.  Approximately
1/2 second after it occurs, every woman in the audience dissolved
with laughter.  (That gag alone is worth the price of admission.)

Martin.

I recant!  And you all should have flamed me for my definition of femmo 
in 14, which said:

>   Likewise, Femmo is "an exaggerated sense of femininity."  
>   Femmo is a person who ...
>     is too damn delicate ...
>     purposely drops the ball ...
>     asks for help when changing ...
>     is too damn polite ...

There I was, a card carrying member of NOW, putting forth the old, negative
stereotypes.  And once again, I realize I can be as sexist as any other
randomly selected jerk from our culture. Sigh.  Echoes of the crass
Madonna/Whore image.  The concept of "Femininity" seems schizo compared to
"Masculinity." Which way does one exagerate?  Who is femmo? 



	Mary Mother of God      Mae West
	Melanie                 Scarlet
	Audrey Hepburn          Jane Mansfield
	Mother Therese          Harriet Tubman
	Queen Elizabeth I       Marie Antoinette
        Joyce Brothers          Dr. Ruth

Linguists have a scale they play with to study words.  It's frustrating 
that the words that describe Femmo and Macho fall into different places.


                            Strong
                               |
                               |
                               |
                               |
           Bad   ----------------------------  Good
                               |
                               |
                               |
                               |
                             Weak


Bonnie Reinke wrote a note last June that I find germaine to this string.
Note 332.10                   

>    This reminds me a bit of the older woman character in Falstaff -
>    who is kind of a archetype. The knowledgeable older married woman
>    - now a widow. She understands mens' lusts and is not constrained
>    to hide her knowledge....it seems we have not dealt with or incorporated
>    this side of woman into our modern archetype.....is it possible
>    for 'nice' (i.e. not casually or promiscuously sexually available
>    to 'understand' (i.e. admit to knowledge of) off color remarks,
>    jokes, and innuendoes? My usual response to such remarks is to say
>    that I am a married woman and have sons - i.e. of course I understand
>    what they are talking about!

You may have noticed that, aside from recanting my initial stab at femmo, I
have rambled and not made any central point.  I can't.  I'm in a quandary
about this.  It's perturbing to me that I feel solid on macho and so
scattered on femmo.  Anyone else feeling schizo       Meigs 

    I dunno, Meigs, I think we're talking about stereotypes and signing
    up for them in perhaps a thoughtless or insecure way.  That your
    definition of 'femmo' reflected the anti-woman sexism of the stereotype
    is *its* fault, not yours.  There are women who, for whatever reason,
    do indeed sign up for that stereotype:  they _do_ let on that they're
    "too delicate" for whatever real activity is in train; they _do_
    drop the ball for reasons other than honest clumsiness...and so
    forth.  All your "femmo" definition did was to supply a useful label
    so that we can avoid long strings such as "exaggerated adherence
    to the feminine stereotype".
    
    						=maggie