Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Hi Sharron,
    
    I am also mostly an outsider.
    
    I am a white male non gay person. 
    
    I do a lot of noting in SOAPBOX. That is certainly a place where
    I at least get my blood pressure raised.
    
    I come over to this file once in a while to see what is going on.
    I see some frustrations here but try not judge them.
    
    In SOAPBOX in the last coulple of weeks I was trying to help encourage
    people to go to the Oct 11 Lesbian and Gay Rights March. Close to
    300 replies, mostly attacking the march and its slogans and goals.
    
    I went to the march and felt very good about it and all the people
    that were there. It was like the real world. It was hard readjusting
    to work at DEC.
    
    Then I came over here to see if there were any comments on the march.
    The 4 replies were enough to make me feel real good and boost my
    hope in humand kind.
    
    I see all kinds of discrimination in the world and the more one
    sees it the more it becomes clear. After a while you just can't
    hide from it. If you ignore it it still hurts. You may not be aware
    of it but it is still there taking its toll on you and others.
    
    I can only sympathize with you, but I see your back, hang in there.
    
    Les

    First of all, I don't think this file's intent is to "Impress new
    readers".
    
    Second of all, if you happen to become more aware of your second-class
    status and the "women as a group are here for the enjoyment of men
    as a group" that's not necessarily a bad thing.
    
    But if you simply prefer not to know, as is what I think you are
    saying, then you are merely stating your choice and as such you
    really don't need to blame that choice on anything.  Not on your 
    personality, your sociability and certainly not on the file.
    
    There's no question it seems a much "easier" world when you just
    "go along" with sexism.   Life in is certainly much easier when you 
    go along with the doctrines of your culture than if you choose to
    swim against the tide and challenge them.  I don't think anyone would 
    argue with you about that.
    
    But isn't it a wonderful thing that there are people who are willing
    to swim against the tide and not simply go along with what they
    see are the injustices and the unfairness of being female in this
    culture?  Not everyone has the luxury of being able to ignore. 
    Past generations of women had to ignore a lot because they were 
    physically, socially, financially and emotionally dependent on their 
    men.  This dependence is how sexist attitudes, behaviors and even laws
    were allowed to insinuate themselves into our culture.  Then society did
    indeed run much smoother when women simply accepted their status
    and dealt with their demons privately.
    
    These days, since we are not so dependent on men, many women are
    finding silence in the face of sexism to be pointless at best,
    dangerous at worst.  With no such physical, social, financial and 
    emotional dependence on men necessary anymore, traditional roles of 
    female subservience and basic unworthiness, compared to men now seems 
    hollow and mere role-playing merely to keep from rocking the male
    boat which still operates as though women are still as dependent
    and needy of men as they always have been.
    
    Some women are tired of this tip-toeing and always accepting less
    now that we all know there's simply no real reason to put up with it 
    any longer.  Some of us now balk when we find ourselves in positions
    where deference is required just because we're women or where
    incompetence is assumed just because we're women or other such
    unfairness.  Yes, we can try to ignore it and be blissfully ignorant
    of the reasons behind the behaviors we silently tolerate or we can
    get offended that we are still not viewed as real players in the
    real world as men are, but mere helpers to male players.
    
    Don't blame the file, don't blame the women and certainly DON'T
    think that "bitching" is a quality unique to the file and us.  There
    are gripes present in every forum where people congregate to exchange
    ideas.  If everything was all happy and sweetness and light this
    file would be full of nothing but recipes and manicuring techniques.  
    There are those for whom that would be ok but please don't denigrate
    those who seek further, who think deeper, who question and who are
    willing to take a stand and rock the boat in the hope of eventual
    fairness to all.
    
                                                           

    This file has opened my eyes to a lot of subtle sexism that I didn't
    know existed or wasn't aware of, or just didn't understand what
    the heck was going on when it happened.  Since I didn't understand,
    I had some unfocussed anger.
    
    Now I understand things better.  Understanding things helps me to
    accept them.  I think I can honestly say that now that I *understand*
    that I have *a lot* less anger.  Heck, most of the people who
    perpetrate sexism do so out of *ignorance*, *not* malice!  Now that
    I understand subtle sexism, I can choose to fight it, ignore it,
    or try to gently (or not so gently, depending on how much I care for
    the person) educate a person.  Now that I *know* for sure what I'm up
    against (when it may happen), I can recognize it, point it out, and
    take an action (or not) on it, but it's *my* choice whether I want
    to pursue action or not.
    
    This may not be as hard for me as it might be for you, Sharon. 
    My family and friends always knew me as a fairly forthright person,
    going after the things that I wanted throughout my life.  If you
    have a personality that is less forthright, or even downright shy,
    then this could be much harder for you and for those people who
    know you.  I don't mean to sound at all condescending, but I know
    it's going to come out that way (my friends say I'm blunt), but I
    think you're in a process of growing up over the things that you see
    and hear concerning subtle (or not so sublte) sexist behavior.
    
    If you need a break from the file for a while, I can certainly
    understand that, I've taken small breaks myself.  Also, you could
    introduce new topics, if you please, that reflect what you would
    like to talk about in here.
    
    	-Ellen

    Hi, Sharon.  I understand what you are saying.  There are times
    that I feel too much stress and this file from time to time adds
    to it.  However, on those days I just hit NEXT UNSEEN whenever there
    is a conflict.  I miss a lot of the action that way, but I still
    gain what I am here for: good conversation with intelligent people.
    
    It's still better than SOAPBOX.  :-)
    
              Carol

    Also, Sharon, if you set your unseen back to a week ago you will
    find that I was discussing the issue you raised from a slightly
    different point of view....
    
    to repeat since you haven't read it (and my applogies to those
    who are sick of hearing me say this) if you don't want to participate
    in the more heated discussions there are over 500 notes in this
    file, go back and reread some of the less active ones and add something
    to them, maybe you will get a discussion started up again....or
    for that matter (as I try to say to new file memebers) feel free
    to start up a note on any topic you want.
    
    Bonnie J
    

    re: Shy???  I wish, it would get me into a lot less trouble. ;-)
    
    Thank you for the honest and non mud slinging replies so far.  I
    will try to add some contructive comments while I'm here, instead
    joining the ranks of the 'bitching complaining women'.
    
    re: Writing my own topic, I did, you just replied to it! :-)
    
    Sharon
    

    	A very eprsonal opinion.  When my first wife filed for divorce
    against me I was a devout Roman Catholic - which meant I could not
    divorce.  Talks with my pastor resulted in what I believe to this
    day to be absurd guidance:  I would have to accept never having
    sex again (I was 21 at the time), I should never go out on a date
    without a chaperon, etc.  A long period of studying religion (four
    years) resulted from my talk with him.  My conslusion, based on
    the education - which was formal and at respected universities,
    was that I no longer cared if there was a supreme being.  Believe
    me, it was a very painful and freightening experience.  But it was
    also part of learning about myself.  The fact that reading WOMANNOTES
    causes you discomfort because of insights you are gleening should
    not, in my opinion, drive you from the file.  Education - the awakening
    of the intellect - may not always be a comfortable experience but
    the alternative, ignorance, should be much more uncomfortable.
    
    Douglas

    Woah, I saw that one in another reply but forgot to address it.
    
    The fact that women are addressing discrimination was not the part
    of womannotes I was against.  After rereading .0 I realize how you
    could think that.  My complaint was that I opened Womannotes and
    saw over 10 replies that consisted of mud slinging and downright
    childish fighting that added little to nothing towards the fight
    against discrimination.  After reading the note a few back I see
    someone else addressed this issue better, about how this file goes
    in cycles.  I witnessed the imature bickering cycle.

    That is what I was referring to.
    
    Sharon
    

    Personally, mud slinging etc. is quite common in the politcal arena.
    What makes any noter think such a tactic is unique?
    
    Perhaps since the mud slinging went on in Womannotes the "aura or
    felling" one may have when such a behavior is sighted could have
    reminded one of child's play.  Had mud slinging occured in philosophies
    or another notes perhaps the behavior would have been reminded of
    another type of play.  
    
    to the basenoter.  Is this possible?
    
    

    I think Sharon was _quoting_ the 'insulting phrases', Suzanne.
    
    ...but I agree that she should go to the party.  As should we all
    [no Liz not the ax...*aaaaaaaggghhh*].
    
    						=maggie

       
    Defy me?  With such a warm hearted invitation like that how could
    I resist?
    
    I never meant to insult and am saddened that you took my notes as
    a start of yet another fight instead of the opening of a discussion.
    

    Sharon,
    
    I agree with you on some points.  Often, I'll read a topic that
    is interesting, but then quickly evolves into an argument unrealted
    to the original topic.  That is typical of many notesfiles, but
    since the nature of many of these topics is highly personal,
    the 'insults' tend to hurt more.
    
    Many times after reading some replies, I've felt my internal 'check
    valve' crack open, telling me to go read CARBUFFS, then come back
    and reply.  So far I haven't lost my temper...  :-)
    
    Stick with it.  Just count to 10 before replying  :-)
    
    dave
    

    Actually I found the base not to have introduced several key points.
    
    First, the meaning behind the words are very important and that we [I]
    need to take the time to explain what is meant in the words that
    I am using in these notes.  This is painful, time consuming and necessary.
    
    Second, the process that Sharon discussed in basenote .0 [i.e. how
    she first reacted to this NOTES file, how it affected her, how she
    became "aware" of the woman's issues and so for] illustrates for
    me that there are many issues out there that women need to address
    and that this is a very healthy environment for women to explore
    their social and political climate at DEC.
    
    I truly believe that anyone who enters this arena doesn't mean to
    insult anyone directly and that the tempers that flare are caused
    by not knowing what the issue at hand is being discussed. This belief
    is founded on DEC's philosophy, HONESTY.  Snide remarks are expressions
    of feelings that one has.
    
    Even the blokes that throw in "snide" remarks must be given credit for
    communicating and expressing theselves.  At times though their
    expressions may best be heard when they listen first and express
    later.
    
    I believe that we need to address the writer's feelings and the
    writer's issues without loosing sight of the writer's purpose for
    presenting the issues.   

    
    RE:-1
    
    Dave, you seem to follow Sharon around the notes files...
    
    

    Re: .18
    
    We're really the same person.  :-)
    

    
    RE: 19
    I get it now! :-)
    That's pretty neat! A mans and womens opinion in the same reply?
    
    
     I can see your point about this note Sharon, how there is so much
    man hating and mud slinging. I enter this file about twice a month
    because I don't usually find anything that catches my interest,
    except that sometimes I can't believe the responses I read - I get 
    a good laugh though. Retain your easy going self and continue to 
    read now and then and remember that these are peoples opinions.  
    
     I doubt that this file will ever change. I can say that I haven't
    changed by reading it. I remember reading your introduction note
    where you stated you had a hard time getting along with women. I'm
    the same way, and this note has reinforced it.
    
     Mel

    	It's funny how the same file can affect different people
    	in such drastically different ways.
    
    	Before I started reading the file, I *also* had a tough
    	time getting along with women (in general.)  After having
    	spent so many years in non-traditional jobs, I think I just
    	found it easier to relate to men.
    
    	When I first saw this file, I thought that the people here
    	were so "political" and "feminist" that I would never in a
    	million years fit in (and have anything to say.)
    
    	But, I came in anyway.  I saw in a short time that what others
    	were *CALLING* man-hating (and mud-slinging) wasn't really that
    	at all.  I started seeing PAST the superficial level (and saw
    	the people behind the words.)
    
    	Now, for the first time in my life, I feel that I really
    	*BELONG* to a community of women, and I love it.  
    
    	The misunderstandings bother me (that even some other WOMEN
    	can mistake notes for man-hating is something that I find
    	disturbing.)  That even some other women refuse to believe
    	all of us when we say that none of it is meant as hate against
    	men makes me sad. 
    
    	But I love and respect the people in this file more than I
    	can say!
    
    	In my "in person" life, I still relate to men a tad more easily
    	than women (I'm still in a non-traditional job and most of
    	my peers are men.)  In fact, I'm now the highest-ranking engineer
    	in my cost center, so I'm sort of a resource to some folks and
    	am resolved to help others to reach the rank that I obtained
    	by the recent completion of my technical review board.
    
    	So this conference is a very special space for me, and even
    	if the vast majority of the folks reading this conference do
    	not understand the love and warmth behind the hot debates on
    	issues, *I* understand it and appreciate it (and I love *ALL*
    	of you for being here!!)
    
    						      With much love,
    							Suzanne...

    	Oh yeah, when I want a few laughs at some REALLY serious
    	slugging matches (and some not so serious ones) I read SOAPBOX.
    	I don't mean that as a put-down to that file.  It has its
    	moments (and the fights show some pretty fiesty spirits at
    	times.)  I never take it deadly seriously myself or let any
    	of it bother me.
    
    	I think women can be just as fiesty as men (and SHOULD be!)
    	Both men *AND* women have the right to their political beliefs
    	(and both have the right to verbally fight to the end to defend
    	them, if it's what they choose to do.)
    
    	When I get the time, I'll probably jump into SOAPBOX myself
    	one of these days.  I'm sure that I'll provide a giggle or
    	two for other read-only noters at times when I get too carried
    	away (like the current 'boxers do now.)  It's no big deal.
    	It's a good place to let off some steam, so it appears.
    
    	But womannotes will always be my favorite file because of the warmth
    	and the community!  

    							Suzanne....

    Sharon, I think you made a good point, and you made it in a way
    that was low-key.  People could hear it and respond to it without
    getting overly upset.
    
    Lots of people I've talked with value Womannotes, and are
    glad it exists, but don't always keep up with it.  I read it actively
    for a few days, and then let it pile up, catch up when I have time,
    enter a few notes, and get busy with work and let it slide again.
    I'm glad it's here, but I wouldn't want it to be my only source
    of inspiration and encouragement.  If it was my only source of
    support, I would be angrier about what it *wasn't* when it wasn't 
    meeting my needs.  
    
    I think you made a good point in the basenote about how disconcerting
    "raising one's consciousness" can be.  I didn't realize this file
    was having that impact on people, and it made me realize again that
    a file like this looks and feels very different to people depending
    on what their life experiences have held to date.  I went through
    a similar experience in the mid-1970's where everything suddenly
    seemed to contain sexist biases, and I was so painfully aware of
    them that I was unable to take in much else for the better part
    of a year.
    
    For me it was useful to stay with that experience and not try to
    withdraw from it.  I was angry, and I was not very easygoing during
    that time.  After a while an integration took place.  I was aware
    of sexism but also had attention for other aspects of what I was seeing
    and hearing.
    
    Today I rarely miss sexism, but neither does it distract me if I
    want to concentrate on other aspects of something.
    
    For example, yesterday when I was watching Admiral Hopper on the DVN I
    kept noticing that every pronoun was "he".  Engineers were "he", and
    scientists were "he" and programmers were "he".  Part of me was feeling
    excluded and unhappy about that.  I expected more from her--I wanted to
    hear her speak the way my friends and I do!  Ten years ago it would
    have made me so angry that I couldn't have enjoyed the rest of what she
    was saying.  I might have even walked out. 
    
    Another part of me realized that Admiral Hopper's presence was a
    powerful statement of a woman defying tradition and overcoming more
    sexist and ageist barriers than I've ever imagined.  I could
    choose to focus on that, and notice that I felt excluded but not
    get so upset by the form that the rest of what was happening was
    inaccessible to me.
    
    In some ways this is a trivial example, because no sexism was intended
    here.  The way in which it's not a trivial example is that it happens
    every day in one way or another!  I've found that to choose to function
    in the corporate environment means always being aware of sexism,
    but choosing very carefully what is truly worth reacting and
    responding to.                  
    
    Thanks for writing what you wrote in the basenote.
    
    Holly

    I hope this is the right place for this reply. [Mods feel free
    to move it to a better place if appropriate.]
    
    As a man, I definitely feel the outsider in this conference.
    Interestingly enough I feel more an outsider here then in any
    other conference on the net. I don't "feel" welcome. I feel
    defensive. In fact, though I disagree more often with people
    in SOAPBOX then I do people here I feel more comfortable there.
    And I don't deny that SOAPBOX has a well deserved reputation
    for being a hard, nasty, unwelcome sort of place. When ever I've
    told this to a woman she's been surprised. This is not a surprise
    (their surprise) to me because of all I keep reading about the
    warmth and community of this conference.
    
    I decided that I had to do a bit of soul searching to understand
    my feelings about and in this file. So I've been giving it some
    thought.
    
    I think that there are several related comments that I've seen
    repeated several times that contribute to my feelings of not
    welcome. They take the general form "Out of hundreds of conferences
    on the net DEC has allocated only one for us [women] and the issues
    that are important to us [women]. Why can't men give us our own
    space." I guess the parts about "DEC has allocated" and "only one
    for us" bother me the most.
    
    The "DEC has allocated" [I think that's the word I've seen most
    but I believe the word "allowed" has also be used] bothers me
    because, except for seriously work related conferences, DEC does
    not allocate (officially) Notes conferences. People want them
    and open them. I've never asked for permission for any of the
    currently 3 conferences I host on VCQUAL. Likewise the "only
    one for us" complaint bothers me because if women want more
    they only have to open more. Of course the "only one" that 
    covers issues we [women] are interested in complaint gives
    a very narrow and negative (to my way of thinking) message
    because it implies that women are not interested in the 100s
    of other conferences and the issues raised there. I'd also
    like to point out that there are a lot of conferences that
    deal with issues that are traditionally women's interest.
    COOKS (hosted my a man BTW), AEROBICS, BABYNAMES, Cats,
    Chocolate,Dance, Diets,Gardening, Parenting, just to name a
    few. These conferences have lots of both women and men. There's
    no reason to assume that the files dealing with (traditionally)
    male topics would not welcome women as well as these others
    do men.
    
    Perhaps it seems trivial but when I read "This is ours and
    this is the only ours you men let us have" I feel unwanted.
    Especially when I have trouble understanding the "only ours you
    let us have". There is only one MENNOTES too BTW and yet men
    aren't complaining about having only one place.

    I think that there are some women who move to a defensive posture
    (an aggressive not just assertive posture) when men reply here. Not
    all women and not to all men to be sure. However, this aggressive
    defense can make someone who means no harm and is only looking to
    understand get a little edgy. This is not to say that people should
    not take on an aggressive defense. Take on what ever defense you
    feel the situation warrants but be aware of the possible reaction.
    If someone meets you at their door with a raised shotgun, grins and says
    "Welcome" how soon are you going to relax? :-)

    The other thing I've noticed is that there have been some men who've
    Noted with a chip on their shoulder. This makes it hard for other men
    because they are too easily identified with those other men [the bad
    guys]. Women have sometimes used "ill advised" words to describe the
    good guys too. "Honorary women" while meant as a compliment is hard
    for men brought up to be "real men" to accept as a complement at an
    emotional level regardless of how well they understand the intent at
    an intellectual level. It appears, to me at least, to be somewhat
    condescending. A statement that I've overcome an innate disadvantage that
    I'd rather not believe I have [whether I do or not.]

    Having talked to a couple of WOMANNOTErs (in person or by phone)
    I feel a bit more welcome now then I did before. I think that
    people are a bit different in real life then they come across
    in Notes. I hope to make it to the party and met more of you. Notes
    seems to increase the need for face to face meetings more then other
    none face to face means of communication.

			Alfred    

    I don't feel unwelcome or like an outsider here. Some people like my 
    comments; some people don't. So be it.
                   
    I am a man. I don't want to be an "honorary woman." I want people
    to consider my opinions on the basis of what I am saying, and not
    on the basis of my gender. What I write is based on my life's 
    experiences. Being male is part of that experience. I hope that
    what I share in this file is a help to both men and women to better 
    understand themselves and others. Reading this file certainly has
    been has help to me in understanding both sexes.
    
    In general, I find MENNOTES boring, superficial, and macho, and
    no longer read it. If there has been a significant change, let me
    know and I'll sample it again.
    
    -bs 
    

    Bruce,
    
    If I think of a man as an 'honorary woman' it doesn't mean
    that I think he is less of a man but rather a man who I can
    *trust* a great deal. It means that I can let down my guard with
    such a person as much as I can with a close woman friend. (The
    actual expression that I have used on occasion with a man I liked
    a lot was that I felt like he was a 'girl friend' :-) and then
    had to do a bit of explaining as to what I meant!) Such friendships
    are rare and special. 
    
    Bonnie
    
    

Re: .26


   >If I think of a man as an 'honorary woman' it doesn't mean
   >that I think he is less of a man but rather a man who I can
   >*trust* a great deal. It means that I can let down my guard with
   >such a person as much as I can with a close woman friend. (The 
   >actual expression that I have used on occasion with a man I liked
   >a lot was that I felt like he was a 'girl friend' :-) and then
   >had to do a bit of explaining as to what I meant!) Such friendships
   >are rare and special.
    
    
Bonnie:
    
I am still having trouble with the concept of "honorary women."
Would you like a close man friend to refer to you as an "honorary 
man?" When you label a man friend as an "honorary woman," you 
are telling him that you value his friendship because his behavior is 
similar to your close women friends (and not because of his unique 
qualities). Is that the message you want to send to your close men 
friends?

I have close friends, both men and women, but I don't think of 
them as an "honorary man" or "honorary woman." They are simply Fred 
or Louise, or whomever. The concept that women friends are 
"different" from men friends sounds sexist and more divisive than 
cohesive. Special friends are rare and special. 

-bs

    	RE:  .27
    
    	Think of it this way:
    
    	Remeber when women were first getting into non-traditional
    	jobs on a larger scale?  The nicest thing men could think
    	of to say to women was "You are just like one of the guys."
    	(In other words, "We like you so much that you are not
    	like a woman at all.  You're like a man.")
    
    	When people used to treat me like "one of the guys," I would
    	think to myself, "Thank you.  (I think.)"  To myself went: "???"
    	But, in my heart, I knew they meant it as a compliment because
    	women were not generally thought of as being good at non-traditional
    	jobs (or good at being "buddies" at work the way men are "buddies"
    	with other men.)
    
    	Maybe we are not yet at the point where we have acknowledged
    	that most men can have all the qualities we like best in women
    	(so we are still mildly surprised when we meet men who do.)
    	That will most likely change drastically in the next ten years
    	(it takes time.)
    
    	I haven't heard anyone say "You're like one of the guys" in
    	years, now.  So progress is being made!
    
    							Suzanne...

    "Woman driver" <bad>
    "Throws like a girl" <bad>
    "Take it like a man" <good>
    "Thinks like a man" <good>
    
    Inferring that a male is female in any way in an insult in this
    society.
    
    Inferring that a female is male in any way is praise in this society.
    
    There are individuals who have gotten over this silliness. However,
    it is still rare to find a male who will risk close identification
    with a "Female ambiance" (for lack of a better term) - which is
    why one never hears a man call another man on making a sexist remark,
    when, in conversation it is clear that he knows sexism when he
    hears/sees it. For *many* men, to say anything in such a situation,
    would be too close identification with "female-ness".
    
    Disclaimer - I don't hate men (Hereafter to be *IDHM*)
    
    --DE
    

    I got a backhanded compliment like that in (electronics) shop in
    high school.  I'm sure they meant it in a positive way, and in a
    figurative way.
    
    "She's got balls."
    
    -Jody
   

    RE: .22
    
    Suzanne, please try to become an active participant in SOAPBOX.
    
    I can imagine some of the exchanges you and edp (eric's initials)
    will probably get into over there.
    
    It definitely won't be dull.
    
       Alan
           

    I can understand why men feel strange being called an "honorary
    woman".  It is for the same reason that a lot of us (me included)
    don't like the "compliments" from men that suggest that we're a lot
    like men in some respect.  So I won't and don't and never have used
    that term to a man ("honorary woman", "sister", or whatever).  I
    prefer "a really okay type of person" or something neutral but warm
    to convey my meaning on who I think the enlightened types are.
    
    Just look at the responses here.  They illustrate why *we* (women)
    don't like (or at least feel funny about) being called "man-like", yet
    we expect the men here to like being called "honorary women"?  I don't
    get it.
    
    	-Ellen

    Whoa, Ellen! *I* don't like those phrases simply because they baldly
    say "male=good" "female=bad" (see my note to get perspective on
    "good" and "bad" in this context)
    
    I understand that being told I "drive like a man" is *meant* to
    be praise. "Even tho' you're only a woman, at least you can do 
    *something* as well as a man"
    
    Apples and oranges.
    
    Dawn
    

    RE: .33
    
      -< statistically, women are better drivers >-
    
    That's 'cause they don't drive as much, since they're always
    losing the car keys in the bottomless pit of their purses. -;)
    
      Alan
    

    .....which are full of crap their SO gave them...."here, honey,
    put this in your purse...."
    
    ;-)
    

    re .27
    Bruce,
    
    I guess that this is a hard idea to explain well. I don't think
    such a man acts like my women friends, nor do I think of him
    as being less than completely masculine, nor do I value that
    part of him less....
    
    I just trust such a person more than most men, more like I have
    trusted close women friends in my life. 
    
    Other than my husband, my oldest really close friends - from
    20 years or more ago - are/were women. So when I first developed
    some close male friends as an adult my basis of comparison of
    the level of trust was that I trusted this person as much as
    I had trusted/did trust some certain women.
    
    Maybe if I had had brothers or close male friends as a teenager
    I might not have looked at the situation this way.
    
    Bonnie

    If I am the only woman in an all-male group, I like it when I can
    blend in easily so that none of us are thinking about the group
    in sexual terms.  I consider the meeting (or whatever) a success
    if the group got down to business and got on with whatever we were
    supposed to be doing without jokes and remarks about the sexual
    composition of the group.
    
    It helps that I'm not a flirty type person, no doubt, and I'm not
    young or "sexy" either (thank goodness).  If I were, I'd try to
    downplay all that in such a setting.
    
    The guys may well think that I'm "one of the guys" when we just
    get on with what we are supposed to be doing.  OK.  I don't care
    what they call it, and I'm grateful that it can happen.  It's rare
    that a male colleague is put in a similar position with all women,
    but I would want him to try to blend in and get on with the work,
    too.  I would probably not think of him as "one of the women (gals?
    girls?)", but would be grateful if the meeting was working without
    a power struggle.
    
    I was on a business trip in Reading, England recently with 5 male
    colleagues.  We were staying in the Ramada in Reading, and the
    surrounding neighborhood feels a lot like Boston's combat zone after
    dark.  It was very hard for me to have to choose between a 
    frightening walk from the dark parking garage 1/4 mile away from
    the hotel and asking one of my male colleagues to be available to
    escort me back.  I hated having to step out of our functional
    relationship and present myself as a vulnerable female person.
    (I finally solved the problem by getting security in the hotel to
    do the escorting...)                                       
           
    Holly
    

        Re .37, Holly,
        
        I've lived  in  Reading for quite a few years, and you're right
        on target with  your  assessment  of  the Ramada zone!  :^) The
        Ramada parking lot (joke)  is known as the prime theft area for
        cars and their contents and  there  have  been  sexual assaults
        around there too - you made  a  very  wise  move  in getting an
        escort.
        
        If any of the other women reading  this  file do end up staying
        at the Ramada, I'd advise doing the same  as Holly, or trying to
        stay with the group.  I might be out  of  line  here,  but  I'd
        sooner a colleague ask me to escort her to the  hotel than hear
        that she had been assaulted in any way - and there  would be no
        loss  of  respect  for her having done so!  Hell, I've been  in
        places where I'd have  appreciated  *any*  company, rather than
        find my way alone in a dark and unfamiliar place.
        
        This brings to mind another question - would you be offended if
        a (male) colleague asked if you would like him to escort you to
        the hotel after dark?
        
        Andy.

    Since I brought up the phrase in the first place, I might as well
    clarify what I meant by it.
    
    As a single human being, with only one person inside my skull, the
    person I understand best is myself.  Thus, my definition of "normal"
    is me.  No one else is normal; they (you) are strange, alien, not
    me.  You are not necessarily bad.  It's just that I don't understand
    you.  
    
    "Honorary woman" means you are a lot like me (in my eyes).  It helps
    me to forget that you are so very, very different from me.  
    
    "Honorary woman" also means you very are different from me.  No
    matter how much I think I can identify with you, there is at least
    one aspect which is not in my power to understand.
    
    I do not want to change you into a woman any more than you want
    to change me into a man.  To have everybody in the world be just
    like me would be terribly dull.  I just want to understand you,
    that's all.
    
    Lee

< Note 513.39 by GCANYN::TATISTCHEFF "Lee T" >
                             -< "honorary woman" >-

    "Honorary woman" means you are a lot like me (in my eyes).  It helps
    me to forget that you are so very, very different from me.  
    
    "Honorary woman" also means you very are different from me.  No
    matter how much I think I can identify with you, there is at least
    one aspect which is not in my power to understand.
    
    I do not want to change you into a woman any more than you want
    to change me into a man.  To have everybody in the world be just
>>    like me would be terribly dull.  I just want to understand you,
    that's all.

**********

    
    Lee,


 If what you want to do is understand me ( a man/men) then appreciate 
that we *are* different.

It seems to me, that for you to undersand or relate to a man or men
you must put men in some reference that makes men/women similar.  That
is important for reference.  I'd rather be the special friend than an
honorary woman.

The only time that would be appropriate is when I might dress up in a
womans' outfit for a costume party ;-).

But please, appreciate that we are different and understand that this 
man at least, wants it that way.  This does not diminish my 
sensitivity to women's issues.  It just means I don't like a label 
placed on me.  God knows there are enough of those. ;-)

I agree with Bruce in much of the previous discussion.

I don't like being called an honorary woman.  I would also risk a 
statement here and say that perhaps some of the woman readers would 
not like being called an honorary man.

I read this file so that I can learn and understand about woman in
a deeper way. Sometimes I get that from this file most of the times I 
don't.

As a result of this discussion I will try and not refer to women (as I 
have) as one of the guys.  I will refer to those of us who are 
together, as one of the group.  

- Howard

    re .40:
    
    Being referred to as "one of the guys", a good thing in the workplace,
    to me, is different from being called "an honorary man", which I
    would not like as well.
    
    I was trying to say in my last reply that I understand why a man
    would not want to be called an "honorary woman" - for the same reasons
    I would not like "honorary man" placed on me.  That's a different thing
    from being in a workplace situation like Holly described where everything,
    when it runs as it should, is gender-neutral.
    
    	-Ellen

    Good Lord, why do people INSIST on finding ratholes?
    
    The blanket statement is simply this, (and a previous note stated
    it perfectly but of course, that went unnoticed, eclipsed by the
    rathole)...
    
    TO BE CALLED, (not "would you like it if"), man-like is considered
    BY SOCIETY, (not by the recipient who may or may not like it), to
    be a compliment.  Individual reactions may vary, to be sure, but
    the phrase is used to be complimentary.  That men who use the phrase
    don't understand that what they are really saying is "Even though
    you really are JUST a woman..."  has nothing to do with it.  The
    phrase is used to single out one particular woman from the group
    of "all women" and to tell her that such separation from female-ness
    and identification with male-ness is good.
    
    To be called female-like is considered by society to be an insult.
    Individual reactions may vary, to be sure, but it is always used
    as an insult.  That women who use such phrases might ever really mean 
    them in a good way has nothing to do with it since in our society
    to suggest female characteristics of a female is bad enough but
    to suggest them of a male is "fightin' words".
    
    The implication is clear that male-ness is good and therefore ALWAYS
    a compliment and female-ness is bad and therefore ALWAYS an insult.
    
    There seems to be a growing sentiment in this file that if one person
    can be found to be "different", then there is no such thing as a
    "pat phrase" or a "cultural attitude" or a "common belief" and
    therefore nobody had better mention anything that sounds like one.
    
    This seems to be the blockade to many of the discussions.  In
    womannotes, it usually starts with a woman mentioning a sexist attitude
    or behavior she's noticed or suffered from.  Then we find one or
    two males who insist that they are so culturally isolated as to
    have absolutely no idea what she's talking about and therefore she
    has no right to say it and "tar all men with the same brush", or
    "get other women all hopped up on this man-hating".
    
    Some men feel that there is absolutely no such thing as cultural
    behaviors, attitudes, norms, that every single person is a completely
    independent individual whose behaviors and attitudes are solely
    the result of free-will.  Did we all, individually and at the same
    time decide to spawn a health-club industry?  Did we all just happen
    to fall in love with blue jeans at the same time?  What does it mean
    that Thai food is "in"?  Is it sheer coincidence that so many women
    have decided to go back to work in the same decade?  Do you not
    believe that attitudes and behaviors can be just as much "in" and "out",
    just as much culturally determined as fads?  Weren't drugs "in"
    once and now they're "out"?  How does this get communicated and what
    about individuals who DIDN'T do drugs in the 60's and are tripping
    their brains out even as we speak?  Do they prove that there is
    no such thing as drugs being "in" or "out"?  No such thing as cultural
    communication - cultural identification - cultural unification?
    
    I would love to see a discussion about cultural attitudes and norms
    progress but that hasn't happened, not ONCE, without somebody saying,
    "Well I don't feel that way so you are wrong and you'd better shut
    up".
    
    I don't think anyone has a problem with "I don't feel that way",
    but the "so you are wrong and you'd better shut up" is going to
    provoke an attack every time.  And THIS is what people THEN turn around
    and say is "all the man-bashing that goes on in that file".  We
    make the mistake of attempting to answer the charges but our defenses
    are more often than not brushed off as "man-hating".
    
    Yes, ladies, once again we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.
    We can either be quiet about the cultural attitudes and behaviors
    that DO tell us and show us every day of our lives that our primary
    function on earth SHOULD BE to be wives and mothers, (despite what SOME
    men think), or we can speak out against it and be accused of hating 
    men, of bitching, of bashing, or whatever label is currently in vogue 
    to silence women who protest against their low-status.  And there
    is ALWAYS a term in vogue to use because keeping women quiet and
    away from each other has ALWAYS been a concern of "society".  You
    know, everything we might want to do strictly for ourselves has
    been touted by one politician or another as the main contributor
    to the breakdown of the family.
    
    I recommend a new tactic.  When a male challenges our right to
    feel the way we do, ignore it.  We need to stop taking the bait
    and defending ourselves and our right to talk about the world as
    it shows itself to us.  That we defend ourselves so vehemently is in 
    itself an admission of weakness.  I say skip the raised blood-pressure
    and let those who are spoiling for a fight, (or anxious to deflect
    attention away from a sensitive topic), enter their notes.
    
    We don't HAVE to educate all men all the time.  We are NOT going
    to lose precious ground if we don't stop what we're doing, (or saying),
    every time a man speaks and turn our full attention to him and his
    "enlightenment".
    
    I still say education begins with our men at home because they are
    the ONLY ones who are concerned about us enough to listen.  To that
    end, we must speak in this file to WOMEN and educate THEM by way
    of showing them that they are NOT alone, that they are NOT unique
    in their situations and that they DO have a support system.  We
    must not allow ourselves to be derailed into pissing contests with
    men who want simply to challenge us.  And this discussion of "honorary
    woman" vs. "one of the guys" is just that.    We all know damn well
    what everybody else means by these terms, so why are we wasting
    time challenging and defending the details?  Can't we ever speak
    to the larger issues?  THOSE are the ones that are holding us back
    because it's THOSE attitudes, the cultural ones, that hurt women's
    progress.  Individual one-on-one interactions with individual men
    can be more controlled than these insidious, rampant, cultural
    generalizations that men make about women EVERY DAY and USE them
    as valid reasons to pay them less, to demand more from them, to judge 
    them more harshly, to hold them to a stricter moral code, to keep them
    her in fear of the night, to fire them sooner and to withold their
    right to be "just human" with all the failings that entails.
    
    Disclaimer - Yes, women make generalizations about men but those
    generalizations DO NOT routinely impact men's careers, sexual choices,
    financial situations or their right to occasionally fail.  In short,
    I don't think we'd really give a sh*t what men actually thought
    of us, generalization or not, if it didn't impact us so negatively.
    It's the search for the reasons we are paid less, beaten more, etc.
    that have lead us to generalizations as the culprit.  If men would
    treat us equal, they could generaliza about us all they damn well
    please.  I'm pretty sure that's what most men feel about women's 
    generalizations - that they are basically an annoyance and a good
    counter-attack weapon when needed.  For women, the generalizations
    made about us are real chains upon our very lives.  THAT'S the difference.

        RE: 513.42
        
        Yes, we understand that you're pretty sure you know what most
        men feel about generalizations or what most men feel about all
        sorts of things. What's so frustrating is that your projections
        of your feelings and attitudes or of those men you grew up
        knowing don't map to the way an extremely large number of us men
        actually feel. You're sure you understand us and so it's very
        hard to explain.
        
        Should it matter, the way I feel about women's generalizations
        about men is that they are a very sad symptom that the whole
        mind-set of treating people as generalizations rather than
        individuals isn't getting much better. The generalizations may
        be changing, or being created by different groups or directed at
        different groups, but it's still the same old story. 
        
        I don't see it as a counter-attack weapon because I think the
        whole notion of the war between the sexes--the eternal struggle
        of the sexes--is a load of crap. I don't think men and women are
        at war. I think that victims, ex-victims, and people of good
        will who are revulsed at victimization are struggling against
        victimizers. I think that we should all be at odds with a
        society that makes surface appearence and adherence to roles
        more important than people and accomplishments. 
        
        I see generalizations and a slavish devotion to them as the very
        real chains upon the lives of all of us, men women and children.
        I object to them regardless of how they are directed. Just for
        what it's worth. Of course I'm not all men. And I certainly
        won't generalize and say all men are this way or even all male
        WomanNoters.
        
        JimB. 

    
    re: .42	inspiring reading!
    

    I think that men that participate in this file should do so carefully
    and with respect for the rights of women to discuss issues without
    harrassment.
    
    .42 should be considered carefully. Woman are opressed in many ways
    not all very obvious to anybody. Women will need as much room as
    possible to sort this all out and stand up to it with confidense.
    
    Men should be supportive, not patronizing. If men have anything
    to offer they should do so carefully and with respect for the opressive
    situation women find themselves.
    
    Les

    
    RE .42
    
    I think that generalizations by men about women and by women about
    men are both equally wrong and since they to some extent are each
    responsible for the other it should be everyone's objective to abolish
    both.  At the same time, I accept your point that women have been
    hurt incomparably more by such prejudice than men and it is an insult
    to women to put these two generalizations on the same scale.  Your
    reply is well written and clearly demonstrates your point.
    
    RE .45
    
    My exact feelings on the guidelines for male noters in this conference.
    I try to abide by them and think every man would do well to read
    this reply before entering any notes into this conference.
    
    John
    

    Thanks (again) Sandy. That was great. The "I wish I'd Said That"
    Award for the week :-)
    
    Jim - "..we should all be at odds with a society..."
    
    We ARE the damn "society"! 
    
    --DE
    

    re. 38
    
    You asked if women would be offended if offered an escort to their
    cars.
    
    I can only speak for myself, but if a male colleague who was usually 
    friendly and respectful asked me if I wanted some company walking
    to or from my car at night, I would not be offended.  Often a man
    has walked me to my car and I've dropped him off at his -- probably
    safer for both of us!
    
    I especially would not be offended if I was travelling, and a male
    colleague went out of his way to let me know that a certain
    neighborhood had an especially bad reputation.  You can't
    always tell by looking at the neighborhood.
    
    For me it all depends on the attitude of the man.  And I fervently
    wish it were never necessary.