Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    I've noticed a rhythm to this, and all the other conferences in
    which I note.
    
    I hope it's simply that the issues we discuss are often volatile
    and evoke strong feelings. We beat it to death, everyone gets tired
    of the rhetoric, and it peters out. Somebody new comes into the
    conference, notices such a note, makes a comment, and we're off
    again. Go to 1, else DELETE ENTRY. and we loop that way.
    
    Dawn
    

    The debates certainly do seem to get the most attention...unlike
    the nice quiet thoughtful notes. I find it rather interesting that
    for all the strong statements about men it is the notes that involve
    men or our reactions to them that get the most responses, while
    the notes that relate more to women relating to other women, to
    their families, to their bodies tend to get fewer responses and
    to die out more quickly.
    
    Bonnie

    re .2  Gives me hope, that we still get worked up over each other.
    
    Dana   :-)/2

    I think Bonnie said it very well and I would like to add that I
    suspect the activity in the conference would be minimal without
    the male participants.
    
    It was suggested elsewhere, I think also by Bonnie, that we as a 
    group make a point of responding to all topics and as a group to
    encourage dialogue with the women who are new to the file.  I 
    find it quite interesting that the note on the womens art museum
    generated so much activity and yet there are only three of us who
    want to go to the exhibit in Hartford.  It must be more fun to 
    argue with men about whether or not women should have their own
    museum then it is to view the works of our sisters.  But I have
    always known it was fun to interact with men. ;-)
    
    Joyce  

    Last night I talked to a person who has written in this file who
    suggested that the file would be far less interesting without
    the male-female confrontations, and that if the women in the file
    really want to have fewer men participating we should just talk
    about the issues that don't involve conflict with men (of which
    there are many) - but that the file would rapidly become very boring
    if we did so. 
    
    Bonnie

    That feeling is by no means universal, Bonnie.
    
    The women in this file have had huge (to me) , well lets call them
    discussions rather than fights, in the absence of men to fight with.
    Usually, when a "mixed" group is having a heated discussion, there
    is a group of women fighting just as heatedly over another topic,
    with little or no contribution from men.  I did not notice whether
    this happened _this_ time, but it did during the last couple big
    ones.
    
    Martin, your analogy to the abuse cycle is really thought provoking.
    Maybe that's one of the reasons so many of us have love-hate feelings
    about this file...
    
    Lee

    Lee,
    
    I know it isn't universal....I personally don't feel that the file
    would be boring if we broadened or changed the focus of our discussions
    to subjects that didn't cause male-female dissention (and by that
    I *do not mean* not talking about things that will start heated
    discussions between the sexes). It is just when I look at which
    topics get the most coverage the strictly women oriented ones generally
    get short shrift....few or no answers, where the ones about women
    interacting with men go on and on. It is something that we should
    at least think about.
    
    Bonnie

    	RE:  .6
    
    	Yes, this file is very much like the abuse cycle of a violent
    	marriage (more than you would believe.)
    
 

    
I agree with Lee that the feeling about male participation is not
universal.  I think that one of the reasons that some women will
respond to the topics that involve men is that they are socialized
to interact with men...there's some "greater value" to the interaction
between men and women, and a "lesser value" to the interaction of 
women.

It reminds me of the "date syndrome".  When you made a date with another
women it was considered fine to break the date if a "man" came into
the picture.  

I find in the Lesbian community we don't seem to have the same value
around interaction with men.....makes sense huh?

Oh, I almost forgot the obligatory disclaimer.  

DISCLAIMER:   I do not hate men - 

Flora

    Well then Flora, may I encourage you to go through some of the
    older topics that didn't include men and see if you can get
    a discussion going in them :-)
    Bonnie

    
    Tell you what Bonnie, instead of an "old" topic when I get back
    from the March on Washington D.C. I will start a new topic.  Right
    now my energy is focused on The March - indeed several of us
    (womannoters) are beginning to direct and focus our energy there!
    
    
    
        Flora

    go for it Flora! :-)

    	Note 506.0 did nto say anything of particular interest to me
    but a few of the responses certainly did.  
    
    	The comaprison between a heated exchange in notes and an abusive
    relationship made me very uncomfortable.  Yes, there are men who
    write to this notes file in a manner which suggests women are not
    and should not be equal to men.  They are wrong and not worth
    responding to, in my opinion.  They should not, again in my opinion,
    be assumed to be of the type who would physically attack another
    person, nor should they (we?) be included even indirectly with such
    a group. 
    
    	To the comment concerning women breaking a date with a female
    friend when a date with a man becomes available, among my male friends
    breaking a date with a male for a date with a female has always
    been acceptable (as teenagers not to was concidered very dumb).
         
    Douglas

    Doug, I felt that the comparison was of the patterns in each situation,
    and not of personal characteristics. One thing bothers me, that
    in each case, what starts as a disagreement of viewpoints becomes
    a battle of people. Clearly, some people can not discuss their
    differences civilly, resorting to attacks ad hominem or in some
    cases, physical violence. As someone once said, you have no right
    to an opinion you can't defend. To which I add, defend with your
    *mind*. 
    
    Dana

    RE: 10
    	
    	Typical female response.  Why have a woman go through some of
    the older topoics that didn't include men to include men. The encouragement
    should have been one of "well then men, may I encourge you to go
    through some of the older topics that didn't include men and see
    if you can get a discussion going in them :-)

    hmmm.  Seems like we're requesting women to do the inclusion yet
    at the same time reminding women that their assertiveness gives
    the men the impression they're men hater .  Is there a mix message
    we're giving to Flora?

    re .15 huh? and why typical 'female response'???!!!
    
    What I have been saying is that there are a number of topics that
    are uniquely woman oriented that have gotten almost no responses....
    or very few responses....my note on menopause to keep using one
    example. A very simple way to reduce the active male participation
    in the file (if someone so desires) is to focus more on such topics.
    There was as I recall almost no male contributions to the long note
    on "feminine protection". :-) I never said anything about going
    through the older topics "that didn't include men to include men."
    Where do you get that idea?                                     
    
    Personally I like both kinds of discussions...altho my own personality
    would not usually involve  extreme flaming (infact the few times
    I have lost my cool no one noticed :-)....but I would never deny
    another woman's right to speak out in this file as she feels is necessary.

    Bonnie

    
    
    
    	RE:.15
    
    	Did I read that right?  Are you suggesting that participants
    	in this file are representative of all women?  Or that all
    	women make comments simliar to those of .10's [regardless
    	of what I think of them]?
    
    	Disgusting.
    
    

    >What I have been saying is that there are a number of topics that
    >are uniquely woman oriented that have gotten almost no responses....
    
    True.  The topic that disturbs *me* the most in this regard is #28,
    "Success Stories at DEC".  Holly asked for success stories in May-86.
    I responded with mine in May-86.  The next reply was from Marcia
    in Jul-87!  And the topic still has only 6 replies!  I refuse to
    believe that there are only a half a dozen successful women here!
    NO, I will not believe that!  What (in my opinion) should be one
    of the most important, most enabling topics in this conference has
    been virtually ignored!!!!!
    
    Please, sisters, tell me that there are other success!  Post your
    stories!
    
    Rita
    who_believes_that_we_ARE_sucessful
    

    Before I log off for the next three days I do want to say thank
    you to all the sisters who have been going back over the older
    notes and picking up on the ones that interest them...
    
    There are some really neat people in this file and I am looking
    forward to (hopefully being able to) loggin on Sunday evening
    after spending my first parents weekend at my oldest son's
    college. (and keep me in mind that the rest of the kids don't 
    trash the house and that Don and I manage to have a good time
    with Michael).
    
    Bonnie

    As one who is off to do parents' weekend for two boys at different
    schools in N.Y. [ an hour and a half apart ], I hope you have a
    fine time.  WE have done parents' weekends for five years now for
    several of our youngsters.... always enjoyable.  
    
    It is fun to see how the 'kid' has adapted to being away and found
    roots [ albeit tender ] in a new situation.  The 'kid' now begins
    to teach mom and dad what is going in life....  fascinating turn
    of events.
    
    It is also a good time to taste the ambience of the school....
    perhaps sit in on a class...  talk to the faculty.... watch the
    students ramble around ...  see your own youngster away from the
    home parameters...........
    
    Marvelous experience.
    
    
    Good-luck !
    
                  Mike
    

    RE:.16
    
    What I thought I was doing was taking .10 in context with the basenote
    and Flora's point.  Somewhere in reading the "in-between" replies
    the "THEM" definition was interpreted by me to be "men".  I see
    now that the "THEM" was referring to "The Stories That Relate to
    Older Topics" and that the moderator was encouraging Flora to include
    THEM when she has time.
    
     

RE: .14

"You have no right to an opinion that you can't defend with your mind."

I like that!  But then there is the exception that proves the rule:

"Never argue with an idiot; some people may not be able to tell which is which."

(I am not thinking of anyone in particular)

Jim.

RE: Note 506.22 by YODA::BARANSKI

"Never argue with an idiot; some people may not be able to tell which is which."

In a conversation between a wise person and a fool it is the wise person who
learns something.

don - the wise student of WOMANNOTES

>>                      -< platitudes will get you everywhere >-

    I thought platitudes just got you East and West.
    
    If you want to go North and South, you need plongitudes.