Conference turris::womannotes-v1

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Note 500.1             Bubble bubble, toil and trouble...                 1 of 1
BUFFER::LEEDBERG "Truth is Beauty, Beauty is Truth"  10 lines   4-OCT-1987 14:35
                               -< just noticed >-
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    Just a beside the point - this is topic 500 is that a milestone?
    
    _peggy
    
    		(-)
    		 |
    			What we need is a topic with 500 replies....
    

    
    Gee and I thought no one ever read my notes....
    
    I am glad you are going to do 500 as a directory note.
    
    _peggy
    
    		(-)
    		 |	Just cause I am paranoid don't mean
    				the phone is not tapped.
    
    					: ^ ))
    

    Reply to .0; Peggy,
    
    Strong women intimidate men, especially women of your persusian.
    Something to do with expectations, delivering on same and all that
    stuff.
    
    Mommy demanded that we clean up our room before we went out to
    play. So we either cleaned up the room or we didn't play.
    
    Any person, women included, that has a particularly clear focus in
    life will probably find it difficult to intergrate their lifestyle
    into another persons life. Conflict will ensue. But things can be
    worked out over time.
    
    You probably won't see this problem with mature, secure men. But
    then again, every man is somewhat different. Some men want lovers,
    others mothers, and still others, friends. Perhaps your dating the
    wrong group?

    
    I came to grips with this problem.  I'm afraid of everybody!
    
    DFW
    feeling particularly neurotic this a.m.

    There are several reasons that men are afraid of some women. How
    many do you want to read. :-)

    Lots of people are afraid of people and things that are outside
    their control. For those men who were raised to believe that a
    man is the boss, a woman they can't control is a frightening thing.
    I deliberately used the word thing rather then person because I think
    that the men who think they're supported to control women also have
    trouble relating to women as people. The identification of a woman
    as a person equal to a man is hard for them to take.
    
    Not all men who are afraid of a woman are so for that reason though.
    There are others. There is the fear of rejection. Many men, and
    women to for all I know, have a great desire to be accepted. The
    more they respect a person (for accomplishment, beauty, strength,
    what ever) the more they want that person to accept them. When a
    man meets a person with these qualities they want to be accepted.
    If a man thinks that a women will reject him outright (perhaps
    *because* he is a man) this is a scary thing. Worse still for some
    is the idea that he will be ignored. Ignore a man and often you scare
    him. Other times you'll get him angry because most men are not used
    to being ignored.

    Last week on 20/20 they were interviewing Shere Hite who just finished
    a study on women and men. She had just listed a string of common
    complaints that women had with their SOs. The male interviewer asked
    why that was a problem for men to consider. Ms. Hite replied, "because
    women will leave you." Believe me when I tell you that scared the
    heck out of me. The last thing I want is my wife to leave me. I
    think most men are afraid that women will not love them. What many
    men still don't understand is how to keep that from happening. Let
    a man know that he doesn't have a chance and you'll scare him. That
    may be why some men are afraid of Lesbian women.    

    There is also the area of competition. Man are still being raised
    to be competitive. Many man have not yet gotten used to the idea
    that women are in the game now. To be suddenly faced with the
    realization that there is now a capable competitive women in the game
    where before you faced only (an I mean only...women play hard when
    they decide to play) men is often an unexpected shock. Someone coming
    at you from an unexpected direction causes fear as a natural reaction.
    
    I think there are other reasons that some women inspire fear in
    some men but that's a start.
    
    		Alfred

    A little experience and a little psychological speculation, here.
    
    The experience:
    
    I was also one of those girls, then one of those women, who was/is
    told that I frighten men.  I was told this by my sister, by various
    female friends, by more than a few platonic male friends.  It's still
    true, to a certain extent, I suspect.
    
    I remember, as a lumpy adolescent, screwing up the courage to approach
    my father with a question:  "Daddy, is there some reason that the
    boys don't like me?"  I was excelling academically, but was painfully
    lonely; not only did I seem to frighten off the boys, I also frightened
    off the girls.  But I asked Dad the question because I figured he
    could give me the straight dope about the male half of the problem
    and he had always been honest with me about emotional questions
    before this.
    
    What he said was, "You are strong, intelligent, arrogant, kind, 
    and very highly principled.  Boys will always be frightened of you; 
    men will not.  And you just haven't had a chance to meet men yet.
    Don't worry; the time will come."
    
    Sounds simplistic, but what he was implying but in a way, very 
    comforting.  That someone who was afraid of _anyone_ who was strong 
    was still a child and ultimately not worth bothering about; that 
    someone who was an adult, and who _was_ worth bothering about, 
    would not be afraid of another adult.  "Men who are still boys 
    are also afraid of strong men," he told me.

    Now, for some speculation:

    In addition to reasons Albert mentioned a reply back, I'll also
    add that a man's mother can probably seem quite formidable, especially
    when he's still a young child.  My mom certainly seemed formidable
    to me (and I'm a girl!); her rule was Law.  And any woman who, for 
    whatever reason, triggers in him the feelings of helplessness/
    dependency/etc. he experienced with her may also inspire fear and a 
    desire to control, so as not to have to repeat the helplessness/
    dependency/etc.  Especially since our culture has looked unfavorably 
    on men who seemed helpless/dependent/etc.  (The sword cuts both 
    ways; this same culture that has looked unfavorably on strong/
    independent/etc. women has done both sides of the human race grievous
    psychic harm.)
    
    But I imagine this might seem very comforting to a man who had an 
    intimidating, powerful mother:  the culture has held up an ideal 
    of behavior for him that rewards him for "confronting" and "mastering"
    the world.  Dominating women might seem an almost ideal way to 
    externalize and then master helplessness/dependency fears.  Perhaps
    through doing so, such a man feels comforted, reassured that he is, 
    indeed, in control.  And the culture has supported this.  I wonder 
    how many boys have been secretly delighted to find that this creature
    who their child-self felt to be so powerful was in actuality chained?
    
    But what happens when such a man meets a woman who he can't dominate?
    I imagine that the fear could be quite intense.
    
    I've often wondered:  societal injustices aside, how many of us who 
    still fear or are angry with the opposite sex might also be fearful 
    or angry with the parent of that sex for wrongs done to us in
    childhood?  Certainly the societal injustices would aggravate this 
    dynamic, if it exists in us.  All the more reason to pursue the
    correction of societal injustices, so that emotionally injured 
    people find their injuries healed in the context of society, rather
    than made worse.
    
    Marcia

    
    
    BTW - the dear friend was my daughter.
    
    _peggy
    		(-)
    		 |	Mother of a Goddess-within
    

    	RE:  .5
    
    	Thanks for the message in your note.
    
    	Believe it or not, I like men EVEN BETTER when I
    	think of them in terms of their emotions (especially the
    	ones that make men seem more vulnerable.)
    
    	Most of us *ARE* vulnerable!!  It's nice to see folks with the
    	shields lowered a tad (so that we can see who is really
    	there.)
    
    	I like that kind of honesty!   Thank you!
    
    						    Suzanne...

    
    	<---- .5 & .8
    
    	I'll work next on lowering my OWN shields occasionally.  :-)
    

    re: .7 
    
    Marcia, I agree in entirety.  A woman who is self-confident, and
    who plays the games is very intimidating to a man not accustomed
    to dealing with women as equals.  Some of my male friends were a
    little put-off at first, but soon learned that there is a person
    that they like playing the games beside and with them - not always
    against them.  
    
    I was recently told by a friend that he would like to find an SO
    that was more assertive than most women (which certainly describes
    me, except that I am married and unavailable) - only he wasn't sure
    he wanted someone as assertive as I am or as assertive as other
    women we both know.  He is attempting to embrace the thoughts and
    actions of equality, but hasn't quite got there, yet.  He is, at
    least, trying.
    
    The thoughts of assertive women can be scary to some; men AND women
    at times, especially if the woman is strong in her actions and the
    other person is not as confidant.
    
    Sometimes I find I just have to take a little extra time to get
    to know others, and to let them get to know me.   It's usually well
    worth the effort ;]  !

re .0: I'm tempted to just erect suitable wards and make a proper protective
    incantation... "<insert favorite sexist remark here>" ... :-)
    
.6� ...   "Daddy, is there some reason that the boys don't like me?"  I was 
  � excelling academically, but was painfully lonely; 
    
  � What he said was, "You are strong, intelligent, arrogant, kind, 
  � and very highly principled.  Boys will always be frightened of you; 
  � men will not.                                              
    
    As a boy, attending an all-boys school who effortlessly took home straight
    A+ grades and left the rest of my classes eating my academic dust, I
    had a similar experience. They didn't even have the fun of beating me
    at sports because I was the captain of the school karate team from 13
    to 18 years of age...
                  
    On the other hand I virtually never feel intimidated by women, even
    those who are my intellectual or physical superior, or others who have
    a position of authority over me.
    
    Perhaps it is because as an adolescent I never met females and so had
    no compelling urge to compete with them, or perhaps it is because as
    a much younger child, with my father in the army and away for long periods
    of time, my Mother, Grandmother and Nanny effectively brought me up
    in a totally matriarchal environment.
    
    /. Ian .\

    Lorna, your making generalizations. Some men are afraid of highly
    intelligent, assertive woman. Others are not. In fact, highly
    intelligent and assertive describes my wife and some of the reasons
    I married here. Men who like that type may also not like insecure
    and/or overly shy women. And vis a versa.
    
>   So, what do men want (that doesn't scare them)?  

    This is as unrealistic as asking what do women want. Different men
    want different things in a woman. This is very fortunate since not
    all women are the same any more then all men are the same.
    
>    As the rest of us women stumble along in the darkness wondering
>    why not that many men have been attracted to us, and each pick on
>    our major "weaknesses" - too smart, too dumb, too fat, too ugly,
>    too aggressive, too shy, too thin, too not perfect enough.

    You think men don't have those thought too? I agonized with those
    same thoughts for years before I ran into the women how couldn't
    (or wouldn't) see those weaknesses in me. As my old Grandmother
    used to say, "There's a crooked cover for every crooked pot." Don't
    worry about pleasing everyone or even most everyone. People don't
    work that way.
    
    			Alfred    

    Lorna, as much as I enjoyed your theorizing I must take exception
    in your conclusion that most men are looking for a female ornament.
    I suggest to you, and our other noters, men and women are searching
    for the same qualities in other people.  I believe the qualities
    differ between people and can't be generalized sufficiently to be
    listed.  
    
    I do know that most men with whom I am friendly have questioned
    why the other men in the group married the women they did -
    because they did not find the women sufficiently attractive, supportive
    loving, etc. (the list goes on and on).
    
    I am not afraid of women though I have never married a truly 'strong'
    woman.  Why?  How the hell do I know.  I doubt it was a result of
    fear or some feeling I would not be able to dominate.  Let the animals
    in the wild fight for domination, I have better goals than finding
    out who is going to reign supreme.
    
    Douglas

    Yes Douglas, I am afraid I did not find much to support Lorna's
    comments.
    
    I have been described as a strong woman.  I would take issue with
    that description, but it keeps being stuck on me nevertheless.
    
    A number of men have told me I am intimidating.  Dunno why.  I guess
    they know me well enough to be intimidated, but not well enough
    to realize that I am no more intimidating than they are.
    
    I am no media-type beauty.  I am uncomfortably honest.  I haven't
    had a very hard time finding people to love, people who love me.
    I guess at some point I decided that people who were scared of me
    weren't really worth my emotional effort.  If someone gets close
    to me, they find plenty of reasons to like me, plenty of reasons
    to get hate me, to have confidence in me, to fear me.  As I am lousy
    at putting on a front, I let the people who matter in my life know
    me VERY well, so that they will react to _me_ and the bundle of
    contradictions I really am, rather than the "unified front" I might
    put out.  A lot easier that way.
    
    But I must echo Peggy's question, as I am curious.  Do the people
    who find me/her/us intimidating have an impression as to WHY?  Is
    it all (or mostly) rejection fear?
    
    Lee

    
    In my experience with men who found me intimidating/too independent
    it seems to be an insecurity within themselves.  With some, it seems
    that we threaten their importance, intelligence and perhaps leave
    them wondering if they can trust us!  Now I'm not saying that I
    have known very many men out there like this...but there are a few.
    After "years of experience" I have learned to recognize them and
    also to recognize and appreciate the men who are mature enough to
    *not* have a problem with my independence!  Thank goodness there
    are men like that out there and it's wonderful having a relationship
    that is based on mutual trust and respect!  
    
    	-Myra

    I'm more scared of a weak woman with little self-respect that one
    who is "strong, honest, intelligent, self-respecting, and competent".
    
    Maybe it's because I've learned to deal with unexpected problems as
    challenges instead of allowing them to disappoint me.
    
    Rich

        I don't know if this has anything to do with .0's situation, but I
        know that I find some people to be very dominant.  It's not
        something they do consciously, but because of their
        self-assuredness or dominating manner, they can intimidate others
        in a conversation. They are very forceful when they speak, and it
        is hard for a less-assured person to contradict them.  Well, it's
        not even being less assured, but maybe more introverted (not the
        same).  Some people do not like confrontations, so find it very
        hard to disagree with those that are very assured when stating
        something.  Even when you *know* they are wrong, and even though
        that person would probably not get upset by being contradicted.
        The more introverted person can also be intimidated because of
        wanting to be liked and well thought of.  Can a self-confident
        assured person understand the introvert's inability to discuss
        certain topics with them because they might make a mistake and
        they see that self-assured person as one who obviously knows
        everything about that topic?  And of course, the introvert doesn't
        want anyone to know that they are introverted, because they've
        worked hard on that problem, and they really are self-confident
        assured persons. 


	I dunno, maybe this isn't related at all and I'm just
	rambling.  I guess bottom line is that anyone who finds you
	frightening or intimidating probably doesn't know you very well.

	...Karen

    yes, Karen, it is VERY hard for us who are big-mouthed by nature
    to remember that many, if not most, people are trained NOT to
    interrupt, are hesitant to disagree or state the reasons for their
    disagreement with those who SOUND 100% sure of themselves, and hate
    to say the same thing more than once even when it is not really
    *heard* by the other person.
    
    We try, but in my family you had to learn to be forceful about
    interrupting when someone is going off the deep end, and to sound
    like you know what you're talking about (my parents were school
    teachers).
    
    Lee

    I can only speak for myself.  When I find that I'm intimidated by
    someone, be they male or female, it is usually a direct result of
    my own insecurity.  As I grew and became more self-assured, strong
    assertive woman became less of a threat.
    
    Cheers,
    Marty
                                                       
                                                       

    	As .21 and others point out, to feel a threat indicates that
    in some way it emphasises or points out a weakness in yourself.
    
    	I have been happily married for nearly 20 years now, and have
    never been unfaithful, but I do find women attractive. I am quite 
    happy around women whom I know to be homosexual, or firmly commited 
    to a marriage (or whatever). I am not worried or surprised if they
    are intellectually competent - an aunt of mine was one of the first
    women to graduate from Oxford around 50 years ago, and her mother
    was even more exceptional in her own way.
    
    	I am terrified of attractive, unmarried women, especially if 
    they are the "helpless" sort. It all depends on what you consider
    as a potential threat to something important.

    	Dave

    When I was a teenager, I noticed that the girls of our crowd who
    had a low self image of themselves (i.e., poor students, felt rejected
    by parents, had acne, etc.) were the ones who tried the hardest
    to date as many boys as they could. These girls were flighty,
    fickle, and proved not to be very good friends.
    
    Today, I still prefer women who feel good about themselves, their
    intelligence, their abilities, their accomplishments. I try to avoid
    getting emotionally involved with women who have low self-esteem.
    These are the women who'll look to me alone to satisfy all their
    emotional needs. And when I can't, since they have nothing else
    in their lives to feel good about, they'll go on to the next man,
    hoping HE'LL be the one to take away all their pain.
    
      Alan 
          

        In 501.16, Lee, you asked why those who found you intimidating
        did. I can't answer that directly as I'm not one who is
        intimidated easily--folk who don't show both the intent and
        capability to do me grievous bodily harm don't intimidate me,
        and them I don't often run into. You also said that you'd been
        described as a strong woman and that you would take issue with
        that.
        
        I do regard you as a strong woman, actually as a strong person.
        On the ussumption that the impression of strength is what oters
        find intimidating, allow me to try to explain why you impress me
        as strong. I suspect that many people aren't used to dealing
        with strong people, and especially with strong women (if for no
        other reason than that women are not portrayed as strong in our
        media and fiction). I further suspect that people are often
        inrimidated by both strength and the unexpected or unfamiliar
        (like strong people, f'rinstance).
        
        So what makes you appear strong? Well what most impressed me was
        the strength of your principles and resolve. You have, in
        several notes, spoken of your commitment to non-violence. You
        have also made it clear, when talking about some of your more
        unsavory experiences, that you are willing to stick to those
        principles despite the cost to you. I don't share your
        dedication to non-violenec, but your moral resolve and the
        strength of character exhibited there-in is something I admire.
        
        What first impressed me about you was the emotional strength
        that you exhibited in writing about some of very painful
        experiences. Having written about the rather minor sexual
        assualt which I experienced, I know how hard it must have
        been for you to speak of your own more serious experiences.
        It takes a lot of strength to talk about the things that
        hurt us most.
        
        One of the most visible ways in which you exhibit strength in
        this conference is the no-nonsense, pull-no-punches way that you
        write. Your note 479.13 was extremely powerful, and quite
        eloquent, but it was by no means unique. In your own note
        (501.16) you mention your "uncomfortable honesty". That honesty
        is an aspect of strength. You comment that you aren't very good
        at putting on a front. Well, many people can't bear not to. To
        allow your true self to show makes you vulnerable and is a sign
        of no little courage.
        
        Additionally, as the previous point touched on, you have a real
        air of self-confidence. You know that with out being a "media-
        type beauty" you don't have a very hard time finding people who
        love you. Well, most people aren't anywhaere near that sure
        that they can find love. To know that you are loveable as
        you are is to be far more confident than many. 
        
        Finally, there is your professional success. I haven't worked
        directly with you, but from everything I've seen and heard
        you're quite good at what you do. Competence at one's chosen
        field of endeavor gives the impression of strength. For a woman
        to be good in a traditionally male profession only enhances the
        image.
        
        I write this in the conference rather than as mail because I
        think that much of what I've said about you applies to many
        members of this file. There are a lot of WomanNoters with strong
        principles, emotional strength, honesty, self confidence and
        success. Many more share at least one or two of those forms of
        strength.  All of these may intimidate many folk.
        
        There is a second reason for posting it here, and that is to
        encourage others to show similar strength in the future. You
        have, I think, set a good example of what can be gained by risk
        taking. Honesty and emotional vulnerability may be scary, but I
        think you, among many others, have shown the benefits to be
        gained. I don't mean it to sound too grandios either. I loved
        your story of appearing at a job interview in a tuxedo.
        Certainly it isn't an act of heroic valor, but it is something
        that the vast majority would find too daunting.
        
        Any way, if my earlier note made you cry, maybe this one will
        make you blush. I hope that talking about you to your face in
        public is not too embarassing. You did ask what made you
        intimidating, though. As I said, you don't intimidate me, but
        you have enough strength, honesty and presence that I can easily
        imagine someone being intimidated. Keep it up. It's good for
        both you and for them.
        
        JimB. 
        
        

RE: why are men afraid of women...

Again, I feel that this 'sexist' thing is a special case of a more general
'problem'.

The people (including women) that I have been afraid of are those who in their
behavior, or speech I have reason to believe that they share little or no of my
base asssumptions of what it is to be human, how it is to act human.  These
people and their behavoir and speech are *totally* outside of my experience.
They are **totally** unpredictable; I cannot even predict that their behavior
will be human.  For all I know they are as like to knife me as smile.

Another case of this, is when someone I *think* I know, does something right out
there on the edge of what I consider human behavior.  They instantly come
totally unpredictable again, only worse, because I thought I knew them.

Now people aren't by any stretch of the imagination totally predictable, but
there are some assumptions one must make to be able to get on with life. With
these people, I cannot make those assumptions. 

How does this tie in with women?  The only time a woman made me feel that way is
the first few times I talked to a radical feminist.  She was totally outside of
my experience at the time.  I had a hard time understanding what the heck she
was talking about because her speech seemed seemed to be totally illogical, and
nonsequitor.  Gradually I got over it, as I came to understand her.

Other people that have made me feel this way are explictly violent types, and
people who seemed to think that they were the only "person" on earth; the rest
of us are just 'things' to be dealt with as they pleased.  These latter people
were the surprises.

Of course there are a lot of people, who don't care to expand their horizons to
include those who were outside their human experience.  These people will
continue to be afraid whenever they meet up with someone outside of their
experience.  They will try to deny, dehumanize, or trivialize these people so
that they do not have to grow to include them in their experience.  These
people are women as well as men. 

What's the cure?  Well, assertive, capable women are perhaps outside of many
men's experience.  Or perhaps they looked, but did not see, unintentionally.
Women who want equality do not frighten me; others do, (fuzzy thinking ahead)
but I think that I have allways wanted equal partners, but have never found
them; or perhaps for some reason I was unacceptable to them. 

Once people experience women as equals enough, this problem will disappear.

RE: .10 Just so...

Jim.

    	RE:  .25
    
    	Jim, if you want to meet someone that would *REALLY* make you
    	wonder if he was human (because I guarantee that he talks about
    	things that very FEW earthly beings understand), let me introduce
    	you to my brother.  He is an astro-physicist and speaks a language
    	that is quite foreign to the average (or even above-average)
    	person.
    
    	When *I* meet someone who talks about things I don't understand,
    	I rarely think of the person as not being human.  I look to
    	myself and wonder 1) why I am un-knowledgeable about the subject,
    	2) if the subject interests me, and 3) if I care enough about
    	the subject or the person to expand my horizons a little.
    
    							Suzanne....

RE: .26

I don't think you understand me :-)...

It isn't merely that you don't 'understand' the person, or that you don't
understand what they are talking about.  It's more like you don't understand how
a human can believe/do/* X...  My immediate reaction is to get away from them; I
try to put that on hold for a bit while I try to figure out just what the hell
is going on, but that is my reaction.

I also have this reaction when faced with someone who "believes" that "The End
of the World" is going to happen at a specific date...

I suppose if someone wanted to jump on my case, they could say that it is
dehumanizing, but ...

Jim. 

    re: .0
    
    I'm not sure if this is an answer, a copout, or an allegorical
    reference.
    
    Not too long ago (a few short years) I worked in  a group, and there
    was this lady who also worked there. She had gotten the job because
    she had taken a course (from DEC) that was designed to "train" people
    who were on welfare to become employed people.
    
    This lady, along with three others were hired, and they all performed
    so superbly that all but this one are contributing "more than their
    share to DEC". This one is now UNemployed. Why ?
    
    She had a problem. She was terrified to face the 'boss", and did
    everything possible to avoid confronting him for the simplest of
    requests. For her own reasons, EAP was out ... any form of counseling
    was out ... eventually, she was out.
    
    Some men, I think, are like that around certain types of women.
    They seem to "need" to feel superior, but can't, so they avoid
    the "genius" type of woman, and settle for something they can manage.
    
    Or, at least have, the illusion of managing.
    
    There are some things we can live with, and some we prefer to live
    without, and each needs to find their own niche, to solve the riddle
    of "life,liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".
    
    Bob