Conference turris::womannotes-v1

      	The Mothers in our culture do not have sole control over
    	the messages that are given to young people about what 
    	sorts of roles they should adopt (and what their
    	chances might be of finding success in certain professions.)
   
    	As children growing up in the 50's and 60's, I think nearly
    	*ALL* of us were aware that the vast majority of technical,
    	medical and legal professionals were men (for whatever reason.)
    
    	Those girls who dared to be "the smartest kid in the class"
    	knew from their PEERS that this was not the "coolest" thing
    	to be if you wanted boys to be interested in you.  *SOME* boys said
    	bad things about smart girls (there were stereotypes about
    	how girls couldn't be both smart and pretty/feminine/appealing.)
    	Those stereotypes were with us for a long time.  I don't mean
    	it as an insult to boys/men -- that's just the message we got.
    
    	Our parents, teachers, peers (and EVERYONE) told us while
    	growing up that, for God's sake, we shouldn't ever BEAT BOYS
    	at anything (because boys are supposed to be competitive and
    	girls are NOT.)  A girl that beats a boy is unfeminine/etc.
    	and will not be appealing to him.  [No comments about that --
    	I'm just passing on the MESSAGES we got and do not mean to
    	insult boys or men.]

    	So -- if the vast majority of professionals are known to be
    	men, and you get strong signals from the kids at school that
    	being super-smart (especially in something like math) is
    	not very cool for a girl -- not all of us felt the urge to
    	pursue math.
    
    	When I was in elementary and high school, I thought that math
    	was ultra-boring and not the sort of thing that would interest
    	girls (and I was also under the impression that girls did not
    	normally do well in math.)  Since the vast majority of technical
    	jobs (that might require math skills) were held by men anyway,
    	there wasn't much point for many of us to pursue it.  
    
    	It wasn't my Mother who told me all this -- it was just an
    	obvious part of our culture (and the messages that we got at
    	school back then.)
    
    	In my case, I was already a musician and a writer,
    	so I didn't worry about not being good in math.  I knew I could
    	make it through high school with negligible math skills, and
    	my chances of a technical career were nil (so there was no point
    	in worrying about it.)
    
    	When I found out later that I *WAS* good in math (and that it
    	was as strong as my musical and writing talents, if not stronger)
    	and that I *COULD* have a technical career -- it changed my
    	life completely (for the better!!)
    
    	As a Mother myself, I tried very hard to keep Ryan from getting
    	the sorts of messages that *I* got when *I* was growing up,
    	but there were a lot of messages that snuck through to him anyway
    	(from nursery school on up.)
    
    	I'll never forget the day he came home from pre-school (at less
    	than 3 years old) and announced to me that "Girls don't have
    	muscles."  He was out of control for a whole week when he found
    	that out (because why should he obey Mommy if Mommy is a girl
    	and has no muscles???)  By the end of that week, he turned himself
    	back around and announced to me, "Mommies have muscles." :-)
    
    	Children don't live in a vacuum -- the messages about our
    	culture come from a variety of sources (and our parents don't
    	have complete or even major control over them.)
    
    							Suzanne...

    Alfred, I would second what Suzanne is saying ...growing up I got
    messages loud and clear about what girls should and shouldn't do.
    But I wasn't pretty, and didn't know how to play the social games...
    
    so I never dated, and put all my efforts in to academics....
    
    I went into the sciences and math because I had a talent for them...
    but also didn't have to worry about guys not likeing me because
    I was good in math...'cause they didn't anyway :-).
    
    and yet inspite of all of that, my major goal getting out of high
    school was to be a lab technician....rather than to run a lab...
    
    because when I took a career survey that was what they said I would
    be best at....(because I was female not male.)
    
    My daughter had been brought up in a house hold where we expect
    men and women and boys and girls to be equal competetors and equal
    sharers in household responsibilities....
    
    and she is gifted intellectually and is getting D's again this year
    because her peers have convinced her that studying just isn't
    important...
    
    and it drives me a bit nuts that she is this way....I wish she had
    chosen a different way to rebel against my values...:-)
    
    Bonnie

RE: .1

    It wasn't  terribly  cool  to  be smart in class if you were a boy
    either. I was beaten up enough about that to still remember it.

Re: .0

    When my  sister  was  4  or  5  she  decided  to collect something
    (leaves, pebbles, I don't really remember what) and my mother, who
    at  the  time  went  to Women's Lib meetings every week, said "You
    can't  do  that  Becky,  only  boys collect things." My father was
    furious.  (He was loudly opposed to women's lib, but did very well
    at  treating  my  sister  very  similarly to the way he treated my
    brother and me.) I could understand my mother's frustration at the
    messy  "collections"  my  brother  and  I had, but found the whole
    thing quite funny and a bit disturbing.

--David

    	RE:  .3
    
    	Yes, I understand that boys also found it "uncool" to be
    	smart, but the price they paid was a possible beating
    	(while the price that WOMEN paid was the possible/probable
    	loss of love.)
    
    	Neither one is any easier to deal with, but the implications
    	for women (the perceived loss of love) may have had longer
    	lasting effects.
    
    	In other words, college men rarely worry that other college
    	men will beat them up if they do well (whereas, there are still
    	situations where women experience or fear the loss of esteem EVEN
    	AS ADULTS if they do extremely well in their careers.)  Their
    	managers may love women's achievements, but some of their peers
    	are known to feel jealous.  Hopefully, it doesn't happen OFTEN,
    	but it does still happen.
    
    							   Suzanne...

Re: .4

You're right Suzanne, I overstated the case.

--David

         It isn't just the parents, teachers, and peers of a child which
    take part in the development of thier view of the world.  Take a
    good look at the sexist messages that dominate the media.  I was
    shocked by the number of childrens books that still insist that
    there are things that boys do and things that girls do.  I know
    that the number of these books are slowly being reduced, but they
    are still out there.
    
         Also consider the affect of television on children.  Television
    introduces children to thousands of role models in their lives.
    Most of those roles fit the stereotypical male and female roles.
    When they do show a reversal of typical roles such as a female plumber,
    or a male nurse it is usually because they want to focus on the
    how atypical such a situation is.
    
         I admit that the situation is getting better, but it still
    isn't good.  I try to let my son enjoy the stories that have the
    traditional roles within them, but I tell him that the doctor,
    plumber, truck driver, etc... could just as easily have been a woman.
    
    ASP

    Holy cow! RE: David's anecdote about "collecting" things.
    
    Is is possible parents say some of these things to control kids
    via divisive measures. We create a "we/they" atmosphere (Girls/boys)
    and then play on it to get desired behaviour? (I don't want some
    messy collection of rocks around the house, so I say "Don't do that,
    only (ugh! messy) boys do that") Create some subliminal
    us-against-them situation in order to have some control???? Yuck.
    I really don't like having this thought! Sure hope I'm wrong.
    
    
    RE: Beating boys.
    
    When I was a kid, I had met a friend (male) at kiddie-camp in the
    summer. We decided to get together to go bowling. On my way out
    of the house, my mother said "Now, be sure to let him beat you."
    Geez. I was a *kid*, fer godsakes!
    
    The society has had its effect, Suzanne. There was only one male
    I ever met who would play tennis with me again after I beat him.
    
    Dawn
    

    
    
    And it's not just that some girls are being told they "can't"
    work in male-dominated fields.....my daughters (she's 16) step-mother 
    told her she "couldn't" be a model because her measurements are not
    "perfect" 36-24-36.  (They *are* close, tho and she's very pretty,
    photographs well and has successfully gotten thru 6 weeks of training
    with a super agency and on her way to doing lots of work.! )
         
    I doubt that some of the old standards and misconceptions will ever
    go away....I stress with both my daughters that they can do *anything*
    they have a desire to do! 
    
    
    	-Myra

    And, it's not always being told you can't; sometimes it's just enough
    that people don't tell you that you can.  
    
    I remember a discussion with a high school counselor; I was telling
    him I wanted to go to Dartmouth to study history, possibly for pre-law.
    I had to grades to get in and get the scholarships.  He never said,
    you can't, but just ignored what I was saying, and started talking
    about the great state college I could go to.  I wasn't assertive
    enough at 16 to talk back, so I ended up pushing that dream into
    a little corner.  I assumed there was a "reason" that he wouldn't
    discuss it with me, one I wasn't old enough to understand.
    
    Gloria
    

    *I* think that language has a serious effect in this area. If we
    talk about a doctor (gender-neutral word) and thereafter refer to
    said medico as "he" (non-gender-neutral word) the mental picture
    of a doctor is male.
    
    It then *NEVER OCCURS* to the child that women can be doctors. I'd
    be willing to bet that unless a child has grown up having/knowing
    a woman doctor, there is a time of surprise when the child discovers
    that women *can* be doctors. This is true of MANY professions.
    
    I am sick to death of fighting this language issue. However, I am
    thoroughly convinced that the "en-picturing" (sheesh. :-) ) function
    of language, which serves to teach children what the world/society
    is about, is a *HUGE* factor in creating their mental images of
    what is possible and what is not. I'm sure that anyone who has been
    involved with early childhood education and the like will testify
    that the picture one gets of "life" in one's formative years is
    the one that sticks. Not without a lot of hard work to displace
    these images, can it be done, if at all.
    
    Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I think this is so important that
    I can't help it.
    
    Dawn
    

    I grew up (for my time period) in a very librated family.
    
    My father insisted that we girls know how to hunt,fish,do
    repairs on cars,repairs around the house. My brother learned
    all of this and cooking,sewing,housework also.
    
    Frequent guests for Sunday dinner included a woman judge,(lawyer
    at that time),a woman doctor and various male professionals also.
    Sunday dinner also sometimes included blacks (this was in the
    South in the 40-50 timeperiod)and out of work "bums" (not my word
    but the best way to get the iamge). We never knew who was coming
    to dinner.
    
    My grandmother had been one of the first female buyers for a
    major store,had run a hotel,and had been a bank bookkeeper( in
    the late 1800's early 1900's).
    
    So needless to say my ubringing was very unusal for the times.
    
    It was quite a shock for me to get in the "real world" and not
    be treated with respect,be valued,and to be moulded to what a
    "woman should be". It was a shock not to get paid the same and
    to be told that medical school was probably impossible. 
    
    It was such a shock that I took the traditional route-got married
    was a medical technologist etc.
    
    But all the time it simmered beneath the surface until I boiled
    over and exploded.
    
    There is still anger there for lost years and opportunities. Some
    happiness that my daughter has it a little better. BUT THERE IS
    STILL A LOT OF ANGER BECAUSE A LOT OF THE SAME CONDITIONS THAT
    EXISTED PREVIOUSLY ARE STILL THERE!
    
    I overhear remarks about women and it makes me mad. It makes
    me mad when men act like they are superior.
    
    Yes I may be a little oversensitive but at least that allows
    me to be on my guard when the games start.
    
    I really would like an end to the games but it won't be in my
    lifetime. Sometimes I get tired of fighting. And sometimes I
    am so tired I will let someone esle do the fighting.
    
    a
    binging was very unusal for the times.
    
    

    Back when I was applying to go to university I was going with a group
    of people who all had ambitions for serious careers.
    
    Two girls and one boy wanted to be doctors. They all got interviews
    with the University Medical Schools of their choice. One girl was turned
    down (she became a vet), one got in. The boy was interviewed about how
    well he played rugby (very important skill for a doctor :-). He got
    an offer but failed to get the entrance grades required. He joined the
    Air Force (career officer).
    
    One girl and one boy wanted to be lawyers. The girl got into Oxford
    University easily (she even got a Scholarship - quite impressive for
    any student). The boy couldn't get in anywhere worth going. He joined
    the Army (Judge Advocate General's department. They sent him through
    law school. He served a short commision and left the army to go into
    practice).
    
    Oh yes - I wanted to be an astronomer. Sigh. Incidentally the only career
    councilling interview I had the councillor suggested that I become an
    actuary.
    
    /. Ian .\

    I clearly remember one incident when I was a senior in high school.
    It was towards the end of the year, so everyone had decided what
    they were going to do after graduation.  I was discussing this with
    a friend of mine, telling her that I was looking forward to college
    and being an engineer and asking what college she was going to.
    I was shocked when she replied that she wasn't going to college
    because all girls do is graduate, get married and have babies, so
    college would be a waste on her.  She was surprised that any girl
    would waste their time in college.  To this day, I am still
    flabberghasted thinking about her comment, and it makes me fume
    to think that there are still people that think like this  (That
    incident was in 1976, which wasn't so long ago).
    
    I have always tried to use my influence on girls that I know so
    that as they grow up and set goals for themselves, they realize
    that they *do* have choices, and they should choose what they want
    to do, not do what they think society or their parents or peers
    or whoever expect them to do.  I have had many conversations with
    my niece, who is now in college, and my brother always pushed me
    to make sure that I would tell her she could do anything she wanted
    to.  He always thought that it would come better from me, especially
    since we are only 9 years apart.
    
    I think my having never been told that I couldn't do something had
    a large impact on my thinking.  And that was quite unusual since
    my parents had me quite late in life, and their generation typically
    believed that women should not have any choices. This has affected
    me in that I have never been one to believe that I couldn't do
    something just because someone said I couldn't.  I always want to
    know why I can't, and I usually try anyway.
    
    Cathy

    re: .12
    
    See, Ian - another cultural difference between the U.K. and here.
    
    The young man would've been asked about *golf* over here. That's
    definitely a needed skill for a doctor! :-)
    
    Dawn
    

    In high school for me, while it was true that no one (ususally - see
    story below) was telling me "you can't", neither were they telling
    me "you can".  The unspoken messages get through louder than the spoken
    ones sometimes.
    
    I guess I was pretty lucky in high school about these things, though.
    I made friends with a group of boys (and one girl) who were computer
    hackers with whom I was "one of the guys" when we were all hacking
    around.  Most of us went on to college for computer science.  They
    thought I could do it (and I could), so why should I listen to a bunch
    of stupid teachers and guidance counselors?  Well, that last statement
    isn't strictly true.  Let's just say that I listened to the advice I
    wanted to hear (one really neat math teacher junior year) and ignored
    the rest of them.  Things took off from there for me and computers
    from there, exactly 10 years ago.
    
    I remember one day in chemistry class when the Sister decrepit-old-nun
    went through asking each one of us what science class we wanted to
    take for our senior year.  I had only so-so grades in chemistry that
    year and when I said I wanted to take physics, she bellowed "NO WAY,
    I would NOT recommend you for physics."  I shrugged, laughed at the old
    bag, and signed up anyway.  Not a darn thing she could do about
    it.  Funny thing, but I got B+ the entire year of physics.  Not only
    that, but she was sure surprised (and said so) when I got a good grade
    on my chemistry regents exam the next month.
    
    The moral - don't get mad (for very long, anyway), just do your own
    thing and go your own way.
    
    	-Ellen

One more anticdote about high school:

  During my senior year, the three top students were female.  Each of us was
  very college oriented - one heading for law, two for medicine (one of us
  made medical school, the other saw the light with computers ;-) ).

  Anyway, that fall a representative from a finishing school (or maybe it was
  a post-high school secretarial school) came in and wanted to recruit the
  top female students.  Sounded kind of strange to us, since our goals were
  well known to the guidance office.  All three of us were t'ed off that we
  were pulled out of class - where we were getting work done!  - to talk with
  some woman who wanted us to give up our more aggressive goals.

  Now this person would surely have had more success talking with the
  business school kids and talking with everyone, not just a select few, but
  who knows....  Can't say we were too polite to her....

				-Leslie

    I recall upon finishing junior high, I had three choices.  I could
    go to the local regional high school (large and impersonal, but
    I'd get the diploma and go from there), a local private school (who
    had accepted me with my high SSAT scores, but my parents could ill
    afford to send me), or the local tech high school.  I chose the
    local tech high school, because I felt it offered a lot more than
    just reading, writing, and rithmetic. The response of my classmates?
     "Oh, you're going to THAT school...THAT school is for dummies..."
    and so on.  Several painted pictures of leather-clad mechanics swinging
    chains and gang raping girls in the halls.  But I went.  And I was
    glad.  And I learned.  And out of my freshman class, three women
    went into electronics, myself included.  By the end of sophomore
    year, I was the only one left.  It wasn't easy, and sometimes the
    teachers would single me out to work harder because I was a girl,
    and sometimes they'd wave me away and say "That's okay, we understand
    you are having trouble" (unspoken - because you're a girl).
    
    but I worked damn hard.  and did damn well.  and when I gave my
    valedictory address, boy was I proud.  If there's any message I
    would give the young people in this world - it's that "you can be
    anything you want"...if you try hard.  People may be against you.
     I got a lot of flack for being the only girl in an all-male shop.
     The guys who majored in cosmetology and health services and child
    care got just as much flack for being on the other side of the coin.
     
    I am reminded of a commencement address given at a university somewhere
    by Winston Churchill.  He stood up at the podium, eyed all the
    soon-to-be graduates, and growled, "Never give up."  He eyed them
    a few minutes more, and said harshly, "Never give up."  He leaned
    out towards them and, jaw set, he fairly shouted the command, "Never
    give up!"  I think that was most of his speech, and all of his message.
    
    
    Yes You Can!
    
    -Jody

    I guess I was bull-headed to pay much attention to anyone who wanted
    to tell me I "couldn't" do something, for whatever reason; in fact,
    I probably still am.
    
    I don't even remember getting told that one very often.  The last
    one was probably when I wanted to take the harder of the two
    advance-placement exams in Calculus in high school so I could get
    credit for it in college (my kid brother and I were to share a
    scholarship as children of a college professor, so I figured I would
    use as little of it as possible by completing my BS in three years
    so Eddie could use the rest of the money - he is blind).  The dummy
    guidance person ordered the easier one because he thought I wouldn't
    pass the harder one.  I didn't trust him anyhow, so when the exams
    came in, I went with the head of the math department (a really neat
    lady - sad to say, she died a couple of years ago; she was old when
    I was a kid) to check for my exam being there, and it wasn't.  The
    math department head called all the other local high schools and
    located one: some private boys' school in the area had ordered as
    many of them as they had seniors, so they had a bunch left over!
    Needless to say, I passed, and got credit for Freshman Calculus
    - in fact, I tutored it, since the course I had in high school was
    a better course.  I guess this is how you make the public school
    system work for you...
    
    I think maybe no one bothered to waste time telling me what they
    thought I couldn't accomplish: my temperament was such that I probably
    wasn't listening anyhow, and I have the advantage of being very
    tall: it's hard to tell someone who is bigger and stronger than
    you are (as an adult male guidance counselor, for example) that
    she can't do something because "girls can't do that" -- didn't hurt
    that the department head supported me, and was standing right behind
    me at the time, too.

    
    RE: .18
    
    - Jody, I like your style!
    
    very much like mine...
    
    Melanie

    	Like I mentioned before, it wasn't so much expressly *TOLD*
    	to me that I couldn't do things when I was a kid.
    
    	It was more a matter of the SIGNS being there (that I had
    	technical potential) but that the people who saw them just
    	ignored them (most likely because they knew that my chances
    	of having a technical career were pretty slim back then.)
    
    	I believe there was a scene in a movie called "Peggy Sue Gets
    	Married" where the adult Peggy Sue tells her high school Algebra
    	teacher that she didn't do the homework or whatever because
    	she knew for a *fact* that she wouldn't need Algebra later.  Well,
    	I knew that at 16 (except I was wrong!)  :-)
    
    	I envy people who knew at a young age (like 15-17) what they
    	wanted to do as adults (and pursued courses of study to get
    	there.)  I didn't have the remotest clue about what I wanted
    	to do with my life until I found out I was going to be a single
    	Mom.  I had to make some decisions real fast (but even THEN,
    	all I knew for sure was that I was going to college.)
    
    	I didn't decide on my TRUE career until almost 6 years ago
    	when I joined DEC.  (And even now, I'm still workin' on it.)
    								:-)
    
    	My life tends to evolve gradually over time.
    
    							Suzanne...

    
    While I was out for luch today, I saw a pickup truck with a marvelous
    sign:
    
    		MORIEAULT AND DAUGHTERS CONSTRUCTION
    
    (Spelling of the name uncertain, it went by fast!)
    
    What a marvelous YOU CAN message that seemed to me.  Ms. or Mr.
    Morieault, my hat is off to you, your daughters are going to go
    far!
    

    One of my graduate engineering profs (male) has a sister who is
    also an engineer and the mother of two girls.  The prof's nieces
    were absolutely astounded that their uncle was an engineer as that
    was a woman's job.   (non-verbal signs, mom is an engineer - therefore
    women are engineers)
    
    He experienced that feeling of someone looking at you and not
    believing that you could possibly be what you are.
    He even accused his sister of warping his nieces's brains.
    
    I laughed.....
    V
  
    

    We belong to a liberal synagogue which has a woman rabbi who is
    very popular with the community.  She and her husband (a computer
    person...of course, in this area) have a son who is about 4, and
    two younger daughters (2 1/2 or so and about 15 months, I think).
    The boy is a terror, still coming out of his terrible 1s-2s-3s-4s
    (I sympathzise - I was a terror myself!).  One day he told me that
    he didn't figure that he would grow up to be a rabbi: that job was
    for mothers (like his) and old men (his grandfather)!   Role models
    are very visible to children, and they take their ideas more from
    what they see the adults around them doing than what the adults
    tell them, especially if these seem to disagree.
    
    (He may not grow up to be a rabbi, but he will go far, if someone
    doesn't strangle him first....the two girls are much better.)
                                                          

    My cousin Janice was always a grade-A student, quiet, conservative,
    a doer, one who played sports AND exceeded in academics.  She was
    Valectatorian of her high school class, went on to finish 3rd in her
    class at Tufts University for engineering (one tough school) with
    GPA of 3.98.  The top two were men, the bottom 6 (of 10) were men.
    She did extremely well for herself.
    
    She's now a design engineer for Mitre Corporation.
    
    Good job Janice (who is getting a Masters in Engineering (school,
    I forget)
    
    Cathy 

    I was never told I could not do something or become something because
    I was (still am) female.  It never occured to me that I should be
    different.  My mother wanted me to be the smartest in my classes
    and she knew that would get me where I wanted.  Nobody ever told
    me otherwise, except my grandfather who said a woman would never
    be president because her place is in the kitchen.  But after I got
    accepted to WPI, his almamater, he changed his tune.  Now he thinks
    that if any woman gets to be president, it will be me!
    
    As far as fighting with boys, when I was in elementary school the
    boys used to try to beat up the girls.  My retaliation was to chase
    them and kiss them (which still seems to be a problem of mine ;-).
    The boys stopped picking on me after that!
    
    
    

    Bob...!

    
    Only being 20 at the moment, I think that I have a good idea of
    modern thoughts on what girls should do as opposed to what lads
    should do. 
    
    At school lads were encouraged into Home Ec just as much as girls
    were encouraged in to Metal work etc.
    
    Yet at both the High Schools I went to and even the 6th form college,
    you got an awful lot of stick if you were seen to be working hard
    and being 'swotty' no matter what your sex.
    
    But come university, people who don't make the effort get ribbed
    as lazy, stupid etc, why?
    
    And at university there are even less defined roles for girls and
    lads. You can all do whatever you want; there are no dictated
    conventions;in fact girls that do do traditionally male subjects
    - Maths, Sciences, Engineering, are respected for their decision
    to do so.
    
    The replies to this debate (no offence meant honestly) put forward
    the view that was relevant to then. But this is now, and thankfully
    times are a-changing and quickly too.
    
    
    
    
    Suzy.

When I was in high school (not very often) I decided I wanted to take
auto mechanics. That was pretty much unheard of for a female even in the 
mid-70's. So they (school people) gave me a bunch of excuses why I couldn't 
and sent me off to take home ec or secretarial stuff. Well that was
definitely not my bag so I didn't do anything and never graduated. Four years
later I decided to give electronics and computers a try and went off to
college. That was definitely more fun and now I'm an engineer. I wish
someone had dumped a computer in front of me in those days, since it
would have saved a lot of grief. But of course that was still considered
boy stuff for the most part.

My folks on the other hand alway encouraged us kids to do whatever we
wanted. That probably explains why I'm an engineer amd my brother is
a nurse.

Jenna

    re sexism a thing of the past
    
    Uh-uh, sorry.  It is mostly over is *some* places, with *some* people,
    but the subtler forms are still everywhere, in everybody (<-- a
    generalization, and an accurate one, I believe).
    
    In another note, Holly describes her anger when she first "found
    out" about sexism.  Don included a very, very good piece on the
    role of a feminist which also relates.
    
    I am 24.  I was the only girl in my calculus classes in high school.
    Same with physics.  One of two in my chem class.  This was in 1980
    and 1981.  The last physics class had only six students, so is
    statistically pretty irrelevant.  The other classes had 24-30 students.
    
    My last year, I took four AP courses.  I was told that I could not
    handle such a course load, despite the fact that there were male
    students doing the same with MUCH lower aptitude scores than mine.
    When I applied to MIT, my physics teacher told me he had seen "better
    people" than me (I know the fellow he was referring to) flunk out
    of MIT.
    
    Well, I did just fine with four APs.  I did NOT flunk out of MIT
    (far from it).
    
    I think these men were saying these things to me because I was female.
    They never said so.  But how else to explain that a student with
    good grades, aptitude scores through the roof, daughter of a math
    teacher, was discouraged when others (male) were not?
    
    Someone said that at age 20 they had not seen it, that "things are
    not that way any more."  While I believe you have not yet noticed
    any of these things, I question your interpretation.  I think the
    sexist hints to young girls are just different, more subtle than
    they were once.  We _have_ been encouraged more than our predecessors,
    but I doubt strongly that the revolution has happened in the 4 years
    between me and thee.
    
    It took some very, very drastic experiences (overseas) to make me
    mad.  I thanked my lucky stars I did not live in that country. 
    I was very happy to come home.  And when I did, I saw the same garbage
    everywhere.  Sometimes more subtle, sometimes not.
    
    Lee

    I can give an example, not of anyone saying "you can't", but of
    someone creating an atmosphere so negative as to discourage you.
    
    I worked with another teacher. A shop teacher. Who, until the early
    70's had had male-only classes. Comes the state law mandating co-ed
    classes, and any girl who wanted to take shop, could.
    
    This teacher made every attempt possible to create a negative
    atmosphere for these girls. Called 'em all "D-B". "Hey D-B, get
    the ($#^&# over here. Wiggle it."
    
    What's a D-B? Well, anyone who asked found out it meant "Dumb Broad".
    
    Not many girls signed up for shop. SO: the state law says "You can",
    the school says "You can", your folks say "You can", and yet.....
    
    Sometimes it can be easier than one thinks to destroy the positive
    and the encouraging. We really need to be aware of what's going
    on with the children.
    
    Dawn
    

    Sue the bastard and the school board. Contact your state's human
    right commission. Contact the American Civil Liberties Union. Swear
    out an arrest warrant for harrasment.
    
    His actions are illegal, and ***YOU DON"T HAVE TO TAKE IT!!!**
    
    -bs
                                   

    This particular person was not one of the better professionals I've
    ever worked with. (Sarcastic face)
    
    He DID have a good lawyer. And his actions were not, strictly speaking,
    illegal. Kids did NOT "tell" on him.
    
    This is a person who, when the principal spoke to him about his
    language, said "Since when are "hell" and "goddamn" swearing?"
    
    You must remember that junior high kids have enough problems without
    having to "testify" against a teacher whom better people than they
    had tried to fire.
    
    The problem was solved by switching schedules around so that most
    girls who wanted shop could get into *his* class, and "Mr. Wonderful"
    could spend his time with the 8th grade boys.
    
    I'm  strictly a "teacher's rights" advocate, but I had a lot of
    trouble with him. (philosophically)
    
    BTW - his being a member of the "old boy network" in the school
    system, and a buddy of some of the administration for years, certainly
    helped his cause. I wonder how long a female teacher who treated
    boys that way would've lasted.....hmmmm....
    
    Dawn
    

    I'm 41, so I came up long before the days of equal rights.  My parents,
    however, brought me up to believe I could do anything.  In fact gender
    was a non-issue in my family -- I don't remember it ever being
    discussed one way or the other.  So I grew up not really thinking about
    jobs and careers in terms of "men's" and "women's" but only in terms of
    capabilities and desires.  Then when I left home and was on my own the
    rude awakening occurred. I remember, as I was just starting out, some
    things that made me oh-so-mad. At the time it never occurred to me that
    I could contest the things, so I just suffered them and stewed.  The
    following examples, BTW, did NOT occur at Digital but at another very
    large corporation where I worked when I got out of college. 
    
    Example:  I turned in a time card one week with lots and lots of
    overtime hours, because my manager had scheduled me to babysit a
    newly-installed production system. The time card was returned because
    it was North Carolina state law that a *woman* could not be made to
    work more than 11 hours a day or 55 hours a week.  The company could
    have found themselves in labor trouble if they had paid me for the
    overtime. Needless to say, I was required to continue working the
    overtime, but forbidden to report it.  I remember wondering how our
    laws could be so terribly unfair. 
    
    Example:  I was on the road a great deal, working on an application for
    one of the plants in a town about 2-1/2 hours from my home. Whenever I
    travelled there and another woman from the company was also going to be
    there, we were required to share a hotel room. Men always got rooms to
    themselves.  This, like the overtime, was a *stated* rule, not an
    under-the-table discrimination.  I remember one time I had to pack up
    my stuff and completely move to another room for one night so I could
    share the room with someone instead of being allowed to spend that one
    night in a room by myself (my roommate had gone home that day). 

    
    What a way to introduce a newly graduated college student to the
    corporate world, huh?  Thank goodness, we've come a long way!
    
						(^:	Pat	:^)

    When my oldest daughter was in jr. high, they didn't want her to
    take shop. We told the superintendent of schools that either
    she took shop, or we took legal action. She took shop.
    
    In shop class (she was the only girl) the teacher didn't want her
    to use all the power tools. We told the superintendent that either
    she used all the  power tools the boys used, or we took legal action.
    She used all the tools.
             
    She loved the class. She had no problems with any of the boys. She
    got one of the two A's in the class. The next year they opened all
    shop, cooking, homemaking and other traditional sex role classes
    to all.
           
    Two years later they made it mandatory for everybody to take all
    these courses.
       
    Remember:  
                     ***YOU DON'T HAVE TO TAKE IT!!***
    
    -bs

    Too bad  you  didn't  have my 9th grade mechanical drawing teacher
    who  kept encouraging girls to take his class, but none did before
    I left (in 71). He was the guy who yelled at you if you cut class,
    but was one of the gentlest, most supportive teachers I've had. It
    turned  out that he got the disciplinarian position because it was
    that or handle a couple of study halls.

    He missed  one  class,  and the next day explained "Don't tell the
    administration,  but our child was sick, and my wife and I flipped
    a  coin,  and  I lost, so I stayed home." (He had called in sick.)
    Seemed  much  more  reasonable  and  enlightend  than  many of the
    couples I know today.

    He really  showed  how  things should be done quite a while before
    it  became  popular  to  do  so.  I wonder how much the more macho
    members of my class learned from it.

--David

    Way back in '85, when my son graduated from junior high school,
    the award for best metal shop student went to a girl. The award
    for best cook went to a boy.
    
    The only ones that seemed truly shocked were the teachers. The other
    students and most of the parents didn't seem surprised. I suppose
    a lot still depends on your local community.

When I was in 8th grade, we had a combination cooking/sewing/plumbing/shop
class that everybody took.  About all I learned was how to sew a button
and change the float in a toilet.  I didn't think it was such a big
deal, but that was in 1953, and we didn't know much, then.

Hmm, my 8th grade teacher was a man, and *that* was a suprise.

Martin.