Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    My SO and I earn about the same now, and I enjoy going half on all
    our meals, but he always tries to pay it all.  We have been together
    for a while now and I feel that it is only fair to start divide
    expenses equally like in "real life" rather than in courting
    situations. He still always tries to pay for both of us when we
    go out, and when he does this, I always reciprocate "my share" in
    other ways. (No, not like that!!) If we go to the movies, I flip
    for snacks, if we go to a concert and he buys the tickets, I'll
    take him to dinner beforehand.
    I think even on regular old 'dates' the woman should always at least
    offer to pay her share, and not be the least bit slighted if the
    man takes her up on it.  A friend and I once double-dated out to
    dinner.  She actually borrowed a $20. bill from me so she could
    offer to pay.  She had not a cent on her, no job or anything, but
    she wouldn't have felt right if she didn't offer to pay her share.
    As it turned out, the guy insisted on paying and I got my 20 back
    immediately, but the guy always remembered her for that, as he was
    so used to being 'taken over the coals' in the past by women who
    ordered as if money grew on trees and then stared off into space
    when the check came.  I'm undecided about the "whoever invited pays"
    theory, but I do think that things should be equal, especially as
    the relationship progresses.
    
    Stacie

    
    For a long time I couldn't afford to even go half when me and my
    SO went out together.  I was a poor college student.  He never
    complained and really enjoyed buying me dinner and presents all
    the time.  Since I started working we discussed the issue and we
    both agreed that it was fair to split the price of the date.  It
    turns out, however, that more often than not he STILL buys me dinner
    and presents and makes me feel very warm and loved.  I try to put
    my share in as often as I can...but I still can't afford much and
    he never complains.  I guess it really depends on the guy you're
    with.  Many EXPECT you to pay half and some take it for granted
    that they are going to pay for everything.  And a very few will
    ask you what you normally do and discuss it in a logical manner.
    
    The way I play it is....first date, if the guy asked you out, he
    pays.  If you ask him, you pay.  If you become friends, both share
    the expenses.  And if things turn into a real relationship..then
    is the time for communication.  Decide between yourselves and don't
    worry about what you're "supposed to do".
    
    Becky

    When I  was  in college and graduate school, I always assumed that
    we  would  split  costs (more or less) evenly, and all the women I
    dated  made  the  same  assumption from the beginning. When I made
    substantially  more  money than the woman I was seeing, I paid for
    almost all the expenses, but when our incomes were close, we split
    costs.  I  dated  one woman who made a lot more than I did, and we
    split  most  things,  but  if  she  wanted  to do something that I
    couldn't afford, she would treat me.

    Now that I'm in the real world, it seems that many women expect me
    to  pay for the date. I don't mind if I'm making more than she is,
    but  I  object  to  paying  for women who make more than I do. The
    whold  thing  seems  to be a throwback to the time when women were
    delicate  little  creatures  who  had  to  be  protected,  and who
    certainly  couldn't handle money. There may be women like that out
    there, but I certainly wouldn't want to date one.

    Part of  equality  is  expecting to share the costs of dating (and
    having it acceptable for a woman to ask a man out.) As long as men
    make  more  money  than  women,  we should be willing to pick up a
    larger  share  of the tab, but I don't think that applies when the
    particular woman makes more than the particular man.

--David

    Hi Jean!!  How have you been?
    
    Well, when George and I started dating, I was uncomfortable about
    the money right from the start.  When the bill came (and it was
    going to be a big one) after dinner, I didn't know what to do. 
    George hesitated before picking up the bill, so I asked, "is everything
    alright, do you want me to help".  He said, "no, I'm all set".
    
    Well, that was 14 months ago and we no longer have those conversations.
    We eventually worked out an agreement that seeing where he makes
    twice as much as me, he pays twice as much.  In other words, I pay
    1/3 and he pays 2/3.  This works out great.  We put our money together
    on payday (20 from me, 40 from him) and this is our "allowance"
    for the weekend.  We try not to go over.  In fact, we do pretty
    well.  We have both saved for a cruise in November because of this
    system.
    
    If I step out of this relationship (figuratively) for a moment and
    put myself in the dating scene, I would always offer something,
    whatever I could afford.  If I couldn't afford to pay for "both"
    dinners, I wouldn't offer.  Only once have I ever done that (George's
    birthday).  But, if I could afford to leave 20% of the bill as tip, that's
    what I would offer.  If I couldn't even afford that much, I would
    share my concern about "offering" to my date and then next time
    that I had some money, I'd do a little treating.  
    
    I hope this helps anyone who is in this situation.
    
    Cathy 

    If a person invites me to eat, I expect them to at least OFFER to
    help pay.  If I offer, I will either grab the bill and not let the
    other person even see it, or pick it up and say "lets see..." and
    we end up splitting -- depends on my state of finances.
    
    After I've been seeing domeone a while (friendly or romantic) we
    take turns treating the other.  I pay for the places I suggest,
    and you pay for the places you suggest.  That way we can accommodate
    income differences -- when I'm poor, we do cheap stuff on my treat.
    
    If alternating treating shows up an imbalance (one filthy rich old
    boyfriend consistently took me to cheap places when he was treating
    and ordered expensive stuff when I was treating), I either say
    something or quit going out with them.
    
    Lee

    How about the issue of paying for sitters, noone has touched
    on that as yet.

I assume that if the woman doesn't at least offer to pay her share,
she's telling me something about herself and her attitude towards
relationships -- and sexual equality for that matter.

On the other hand, it is tacky to put an underpaid person into
a situation where he/she feels uncomfortable about paying half.  Most
of the restaurants I go to serve good (3-course+drinks) meals for
under $20/person.  The best Chinese restaurant in Boston costs less
than $10/person.

As relationships deepen, things get somewhat more flexible, and I
wouldn't feel it was wrong to treat my friend to something unusual
(and unaffordable for her).  This would be as part of the relationship,
and not to impress her.

Haven't been in a situation where baby sitters were an issue.  Seems
reasonable for me to pay half.

Martin.

    Re: Sitters
    
    I've paid for sitters.  I consider that part of the expenses if
    I'm paying for the rest.
    
    I wrote more on this topic in MENNOTES.
    
    				Steve

    re: .0
    
    Depends on whats coming down.
    
    If a "good friend" invites me to dinner, and the discussion gets
    around to the money aspect, we decide beforehand.
    
    In one case (Daisies , too !) I got taken out to dinner, flowers,
    tips, and the meal was paid for by the lady. 
    
    In another case, my date tried to pas me money 'under the table'
    so as not to embarress me in public. Heck, I relished in the thought
    of waiting by the door while *she* paid the check.
    
    If its a case of *salary inequities*, then proportionalizing the
    costs is useful. Often the 'higher' paid person may have less
    money to spend, do to many reasons.
    
    I still pay my 'dates' way at times, for no better reason than I
    asked her out. If she wants to 'upgrade' to  a very higherr class
    restaurant, (depending on circumstances), then we might very well
    go from "my paying all" to her "paying anything over what I was to
    spend".
    
    Gets back to: Discuss it before going out. Find out whats right.
    
    Hmmm perhaps in the case of a blind date, each person ought to be
    sure the other persons car is fully functional before leaving the
    parking lot ?

    Bob
    

    I never felt comfortable expecting someone else, friend or lover
    or marraige partner (a mixture of friend and lover, right?) to pay
    my way, at all.  Of course, I'm not talking about when one person
    treats the other, to be sweet. I always like it when a friend
    treats me, or I treat the friend.  But I'm talking about the normal,
    every-time-we-go-out-together expectation. To me, it's a throw back
    to when my parents always picked up the bill because they were my
    parents. When does one grow up and take responsibility to feed oneself
    and pay for oneself? 
    
    I've heard the argument that my "egalitarian" viewpoint is fine
    for friendships, but is too impersonal when it comes to more 
    "significant" relationships.  To this I say: I would hope to treat
    all my close relationships as significant, and hope to treat my loved
    ones as well as I treat my friends. Think about it: would you insult one
    of your close friends by assuming they'll pay for you when you go
    somewhere? I can't imagine doing that. So, how come it's OK to treat 
    a loved one that way?  
    
    -Barbara

Re: .11 -- perhaps I was being a bit telegraphic (I despise the new
noting style that seems to demand 100 line reponses).  If I knew
you before asking you out, I hope I would know you well enough to
realize your economic situation, and propose a walk around Walden
Pond or something similar.  If, knowing your situation, I invited
you to a fancy restaurant and expected you to pay "your share", I
would be telling you something about myself -- and my attitudes
towards equality.

And, if I unknowingly put you in this situation, I'd expect you to
explain things to me.  Communication is what first dates are all
about, right?

Martin.

    
    
    Hmmm....I think Eagles are sweet!  :->  I would love to be able
    to spend all my money on clothes and not have to worry about going
    hungry.  ;->  
    
    

    re .13 seconded

    I believe in equality and I want to pay my share.  I think that
    is one of the first things that should be discussed when you 
    are making arrangements for the first date.
    
    If I cannot afford something I will say it up front...and we will
    either choose something else to do or my date will offer to pay
    and I will accept graciously.
    
    When I had small children I bartered for babysitters.  Friends would
    babysit for me and I would do it for them.
    
    Friendship and/or dating does not have to cost money. 
    
    I also have a coupon book which reduces the cost of eating out.
    
    Financial responsibility is not gender specific and many men are
    strapped because of child support payments.  I would not want to
    miss the opportunity to know a nice poor man.
    
    I really think that this is the second question you ask a person
    you are dating the first time.  How do they want to handle the
    financial part of dating.

    Hello Everyone,
    
       Hmmmm... It's been awhile since I had a date (Yes finances up...
    lovelife down) but if I can remember back when.... I handle it like
    this.   IF I INVITE, I PAY.  When I am invited by a lady I usually
    expect to pay but play it by ear.  I'm unfortunately not quite 1980's
    enough to be comfortable with a lady paying until (at least) I know
    her quite well.  I know this may seem a bit backward in this day
    and age but in all honesty it's the way I feel.
    
       If a lady wishes to pay I try to assess whether she does because
    she really can and wants to or if she cannot but tries to because
    she feels she should.  If the latter is the case then I suggest
    an evening at home (either my place as I have by necessity become
    a good cook or hers) which is ok by me anyway.
    
       I try not to worry about these things and just expect to pay
    as dating and getting to know someone can be awkward at times without
    injecting finances into it.
    
    
                                   Larry
    

    re .11  (Gale)
    
    I beg to differ with you.  If you accept a date with someone to
    do something specific, you should be prepared to pay your share
    of the expenses.  If you cannot, you should tell the person, and
    perhaps the other person wants to take you out to something reasonably
    expensive and pay for both of you, or something cheaper or free
    can be found instead.  There are *still* free shows and concerts,
    and many more that are very cheap.
    
    If you always expect the man to pay for things just because he is a
    man, and you are the woman, regardless of what his financial situation
    is (low paying job, high alimony or child support payments), that does
    not point to equality.  Should he be required to "waste" what little
    money he may have on a date?  If he understands that you have a low
    paying job and are supporting yourself and several children, he can
    plan to pay for everything, or the two of you can plan a low budget
    date. 
    
    Elizabeth
    
    (Who will pay her share or all if she needs to for the right person)

I wouldn't be surprised if some of you keep scorecards as to who pays or
cooks.  If I want to cook a gourmet meal for someone, I don't keep
track of how many times he took me out, nor do I ever consider that I
"owe" someone that takes me out on a date.  I accept graciously when
someone offers to take me out.  

If I offer to treat someone to dinner or buy flowers for my date, I do it
not because I "owe" him, but because I want to do something for HIM to make 
him happy.  When dating is reduced to a scorecard where each tries to
out-do the other or when pocket change is more important then a kind
gesture, then whats the purpose??  Where is the caring??  

I don't consider it an act of inequality when a man buys me dinner.  I
think of it as simply a kind gesture on his part.  I don't consider
myself better than my date when I buy him dinner, so I don't buy
that line that its a sign of inequality.  Instead of over-analyzing a
kind gesture, why not graciously accept it.

I haven't had many "first" dates in the past seven years, but for the
few "first" or "second" dates I have had, it has usually been communicated 
prior to the date that I was being taken out and not to worry
about the bill.  I usually have enough money with me, anyway.
And only in a one situation have I actually ended up paying my "share".

Of course there are many times I have picked up theater tickets
or caught the waitress with the bill before she arrived at the table, 
but I did this not because I felt I "owed" anything, but rather 
because I wanted to.  

I would have to agree that once a "relationship" is defined, that some
groundrules should be mutually established.  A night out doesn't need
to be expensive.

And lastly, I want to point out that I NEVER expect someone to foot
the bill, but if someone offers to, then I consider it an act
of kindness on his part.

    RE: .0
    
      > Cross posted in Mennotes
    
    Gina, I just logged into Mennotes, I didn't find your note there.
    
    Actually, when I'm seeing a woman, whether it's a first date or
    we're "in a relationship", I still expect to pay for everything.
    I'm trying to (even as I write this) define in my own mind why this
    is the case.
    
    I think it has to do with the way things were when I was a teenager.
    It was always implicit that males would pay for the date. A boy
    who asked a girl to go "dutch treat" was considered cheap by both
    the girls and the boys of our crowd. And a boy who let a girl pay
    his way was labeled a real sleaze.
    
    Today, even if a woman asks me if I want to go out for a couple
    of drinks after work or grab a bite to eat, I still expect - and
    prefer - to pay for both of us.
    
    There are a few instances, though, when, if the woman I'm seeing
    offers to contribute financially, I'll accept:
    
         If we've already gone out most of the week, and I've already
         spent close to $100 in dribs and drabs, I'll not refuse her
         offer of $15 or $20 to "help out".
    
         If we're going away for vacation, say a trip to the Caribbean,
         and *she offers* (I would never ask) to pay for herself, I
         tell her to give me half towards her own share.
    
    Of course, if we're living together and we're both working, I'd
    expect both of us to contribute something towards our fixed expenses,
    but dating, I'm still old-fashioned (maybe known as dumb).
    
      Alan
                                                              

.20>          > Cross posted in Mennotes
.20>    
.20>    Gina, I just logged into Mennotes, I didn't find your note there.

    It's at topic 154 in TAMARA::MENNOTES. Not as many replies there
    as here.
    
    			Alfred

    RE: .22
    
    I'm certainly not a workaholic, (manager, please take note), and
    I also am not boring.
    
    Any other possibilities you can think of?
    
       Alan
    

    RE: .22
    
    BTW, I've noticed your Eagle copyright in your personal name
    field and your hyphenated_Eagle_endings.
    
    Can you tell me what the Eagle stuff is about?
    
       Alan
    

    when it comes to dating, I always went by the rule:
    If I asked him out, I'd pay.
    If he asked me out, he'd pay.
    
    Sometimes, the proposing person would kind of say, "I'd like to
    go out, but I don't have a lot of money/time/whatever".  So we'd
    go somewhere inexpensive or fast, or the other would offer to help
    pay, or a rain-check would be given, whatever.  Things like this
    should not be hangups...with proper consideration this is usually
    the smallest stumbling block in the development of a relationship.
     
    BTW I am lucky enough to have a fiancee who cooks a mean coq
    au vin, and an even better shrimp scampi.  I can cook, too, but
    it's nice to be treated once in a whilst.
    
    -Jody
    

    I think it would be really helpful to know the age of some of the
    people who have replied to this note.  People in their 20's have
    different ideas to the protocol of dating vs. those of us in our
    40's.  Having a man take me out to dinner, etc. and pay makes me
    no less of a woman than if I take a man out and pay makes him less
    of a man.  I'm old-fashioned and it's not always easy being a woman
    of the 80's, or at least what it seems to be expected of us.  I
    appreciate doors beings opened for me, seats held when I'm in a
    restaurant, etc.  But on the other hand if I see a man with his
    arms full, I'll open the door for him.  Briefly if a woman acts
    like a lady, most men will act like gentlemen.  On a first date,
    I'm more comfortable letting the gentleman pay.  If I enjoy his
    company (and vice versa), I will usually suggest making dinner for
    him or going to something within my budget.  The idea of a person
    asking another out and expecting that person to pay "his/her" share
    is a real turnoff as far as I'm concerned and certainly not the
    type of person I personally would want to date.  

    You can add your age to your response by entering
    
    		MOD NOT /TIT="the original title string (age)"
                                                       
    						=maggie

    Maggie, couldn't some of us just plead the Fifth?
    
      Alan

    May I ask what happened to .0 of this topic?
    
    Sharon
    

    The author had been writing from a temporary account and had
    the notes from that account deleted when she left it.
    
    Bonnie J
    moderator

    An old topic, but: there is nothing in dating that makes
    me boil quite so much as being pre-empted from paying my share unless
    this has been agreed upon before hand.  Well, maybe once--that only
    makes me uneasy.  But repeatedly, ggggGRRRRR!
    
    I've not yet been confronted with the issue of child-care cost sharing.
    I guess I'd offer if I figured the salary-minus-sitters sort of
    balance tipped in my favor.  (I haven't dated many fathers, so I'm
    only guessing here.)                         
                                                 
    If you want to get on my bad side, take me out to dinner?  :-) :-)
    
    31-year-old woman Engineer
    

Dating is a game, where each person trys to put on their best face, and impress
each other.  Often we try to impress others in the wrong ways for the wrong
reasons.  But anything is better then being ignored, right?  Or not being fun...

I don't Date.  I have friends and activities that I enjoy combining.

Jim.

    Nah, there are plenty of other ways to get on *my* bad side.  :-)