Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Re: 362.38
    
    	"I'm also a bit suprised that nobody who thinks this is the
        right thing to do has gone off and done it."
    
    :-) Maybe they have and just haven't invited us...         :-)
    
    Re: 362.39
    
    Bob, I don't think you read what Martin and I said. I don't think
    we're really disagreeing, I was simply taking exception to the
    following phrase:
    
        "[A woman's only conference would be] a signal that (some) women
        can't compete in an integrated world, but require artificial
        protection against the influence of men."
    
    Re: "Charles, you always sound so hostile when you disagree, Why is
    this?"
    
    Bob, I'm sorry you see my disagreeing as always hostile, can you figure
    out what it is that seems hostile to you? It certainly isn't my
    intention to always be hostile. I feel very strongly about some of
    these issues and how important they are, and this depth of feeling will
    (I hope!) come through, but can you think of some way that I could
    present what I feel and how strongly I feel about it without at the
    same time appearing hostile?
    
    	-- Charles

    Let's not forget the fact that men have had their separate space
    since the beginning of time, be it a private club or a den within the
    home.  This separate space must be pretty important because it has
    staunchly withstood the test of time.  The male-only separate space has
    only been challenged in the past few years.  By having a separate space
    we can find out for ourselves (as men have always had the privilige to
    do) whether we want or need this.
    
    Nancy

    Excuse me.  I don't mean to argue whether a women-only space is
    valuable, or whether men-only clubs and so forth are valid, but I can't
    let your blanket assertion pass. 
    
    "The FACT that men have had their separate space since the beginning
    of time"????
    
    I'm sorry, but that's not a fact, that's an opinion based on your
    view of the world.  

    For one thing, 'since the beginning of time' is rather sweeping.  Would
    you care to limit it to at least 'since the human race began'?  Even
    the most ardent creationists admit that time existed before people. 
    
    Very little is known about human social customs in most times and
    places.  It's very difficult to look at a stone arrowhead and determine
    whether it was made by a man or a woman, by a craftsman who sold
    them or a shaman who invoked spirits of flight.  We can make guesses
    based on other evidence, what there is, but we don't know.
    
    Even if your statement is limited to known cultures, it isn't a fact.
    Both your examples illustrate male-only private space in an affluent
    western society -- there are no dens in one-room hovels and mighty few
    of them in teepees; not many farmers can afford men-only social clubs. 
    
    I would allow you to contend that the men's club corresponds to tribal
    institutions such as fertility cults or weapons-rituals.  However, many
    societies that maintain areas and activities reserved for men only also
    reserve a similar corresponding area for women only.  For example, if
    there's a house reserved for men to work on fishing nets and women
    can't go into it, there's usually a house where women make cloth and
    men can't enter.  And the presence of such divisions is by no means
    universal even among societies whose behavior is adequately documented. 
    
    --bonnie

    	The sexes, as well as numerous other groups, have had limited
    membership clubs for as long as I've been around.  Women have recently
    begun the difficult process of opening up male only clubs, for somewhat
    valid reasons.  Where is the logic in opening up male only clubs
    to women while creating female only clubs?  How am I to support
    the valid arguements presented by the women's movement if the same
    movement commits the same sins?  I believe quite strongly different
    groups need their own place where they can safely and comfortably
    exchange ideas.  But, the injustices the white male society has perpetrated
    against all non-white males behind the doors of 'special interest'
    clubs force me to support the opening of the doors to all. 
    
    	There is too much segregation in our society now.  We need less
    segregation, not more.
    
    Douglas

  Re: < Note 413.5 by AKOV04::WILLIAMS >

  >How am I to support
  >the valid arguements presented by the women's movement if the same
  >movement commits the same sins?  

  Douglas, this question also occurred to me.  I believe that the judicial
  approach is to forcibly open male-only organizations (or for that matter,
  any organization that discriminates when selecting members) *only* when
  those organizations prevent non-members from taking part in non-social
  activities.

  Thus the Jaycees (Junior Chamber of Commerce) was opened up to women
  because the Jaycees are primarily a business organization and not a
  social club. My understanding is that in a pure social club, citizens
  still have the right to associate with whom they please. 

  I've got no objection to a male-only or a female-only social club.
  However, if it happens that you need to be a member of one of these
  clubs in order to find gainful employment in a particular town, then
  the issue becomes harmful discrimination against non-members rather than
  freedom of association.

  JP

    
    
    
    
    I certainly can't support an all-women notes file because that
    is being a hypocrite.  After all, men are being forced to open
    up all men organizations and clubs to women.  I see inventing
    at this point "only women" organizations or notesfiles as con-
    tridicting the main argument against discrimination.  
    
    Besides, I have received replys to my notes from men that I
    found helpful, partly because they were from men.  I realized
    that many men AGREE with a lot of the things women are fighting
    for while some WOMEN don't.  So I don't think it's a matter of
    sex as much as opinion.  Anotherwords, if everyone is looking
    for a notesfile where everyone has the same opinion on every
    subject so no-one's feelings get hurt, that's fine, but I
    can't say as I'd find it very healthy or help me grow as a
    person.
    
    

    I can understand and sympathize with women who feel they need
    a women-only conference, but I still think it's a bad idea.
    It would only be self-defeating and strikes me as running away from
    the problems rather than working towards solving them.
    
    Furthermore, the reality of the situation is that such a conference
    would be frowned upon by DEC, as it would be on DEC's systems and
    closed to many DEC employees.  It's similar to the argument used
    to open up the Jaycees clubs.

    					Steve

    Martin - I found the phrase "artificial protection against (sic)
    the influence of men" interesting.
    
    You mean, there's NATURAL protection from the influence of men?????
    Where?
    
    :-)
    
    Dawn
    

re: .9
    You mean, there's NATURAL protection from the influence of men?????
    Where?
    

Raw garlic.

    re .-1
    
        That's only for vampire men.  :-)

    Lisa, I think it depends on where you apply it :-)

    
    I know a man who loves garlic.
    
    CQ

    
    re: .14
    
    What, Biblically?
    
    :-)
    
    Please excuse that.  I couldn't help myself...
    
    DFW

    Well, you men have shown about as much compassion and understanding
    towards the women *only* arguments as I would expect.  You have
    simply strengthened my desire to discuss female perspectives with
    females!
    
    If several women were getting together for an evening, would you
    think it odd, or insulting if men were not invited?  And if you
    were planning a night out with your male friends, would you feel
    exactly the same about the "mood" if a female or two insisted on
    joining you?
    
    Frankly, I see nothing wrong with "Men Only" clubs.  I think it
    is perfectly natural for groups of people to want to be exclusively
    among their own kind (whatever that may happen to be) *SOMETIMES*.
    
    Thiss conference is fun and helpful for me, with or without men.
    But I feel perfectly healthy and justified when I say I'd prefer
    it without male input.
    
    
    Jacki
    

        I, for one, can't answer how I would feel if women wanted to
        intrude on my night out with the boys. In 36 years I don't
        remember ever going out explicitly "with the boys" in the sense
        that I planned anything assuming only male companionship. I may
        have done it as a teenager, but I don't recall it. I've never
        belong to or wanted to belong to a male only club, nor have I
        ever lived segregated by sex. (The only time I live in a men
        only dorm at school my girl-friend/faince� lived in my room.)
        
        You will understand then when I say that I can't really
        understand the attraction of a one-sex gathering or club or
        conference. I suppose there must be some attraction--people do
        it a lot--but I don't understand or share it. I think it's a bad
        idea, and given current corporate policy unenforceable, but if
        women want to exclude men I will honor that desire. Seems
        to me that what you'll get is women and intrusive men, which
        is a poorer mix than what you have here.
        
        JimB.

    re .16 The problem is that the Women_only conference would get all
    the best from this one, and leave this one shallow or dead. A lot
    of us men are happy to be guests here, even if we do sometimes for-
    get ourselves and track dirt on the carpet. I couldn't stand a 
    men-only conference, Mennotes is quite dull enough co-ed. Dana

    .18>> "Mennotes is quite dull enough co-ed." 
    
    This is not by way of agreeing with you, Dana, but ....
        
    I was just thinking the other day that Mennotes seems so much more
    "peaceful" than this file.  I don't participate much in it.  At
    times I'm tempted but usually this is because someone has said
    something I find outrageous.  If I did reply it would be a flame,
    and I do not care to get locked into battle with someone I would
    probably get along with in person.  I also try to respect the
    file as a place for you guys to be yourselves, kick back and not
    worry too much about insulting the other sex.
                                                 
    As for a women only conference -- I'd probably be too lazy to request
    membership.  I like this one.

    re .19  I don't know, Helen, maybe we should flame out in mennotes,
    just to give it a flavor of another notesfile where you can't just
    "kick back and not worry too much about insulting the other sex".
     :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

    Re: .19 and .20
    
    I assure you that the moderators of MENNOTES do NOT consider it
    a place to "kick back and not worry too much about insulting the
    other sex".  If anyone believes to the contrary, Jeff Coffler and
    I would be interested to hear about it.
    
    I think it's pretty obvious why MENNOTES is more "peaceful" than
    WOMANNOTES - as has been repeatedly pointed out here, men have less
    to complain about.  (Also, men seem less willing to complain when
    injustices do occur.)
    
    				Steve (MENNOTES co-moderator)

    MENNOTES is on TAMARA::MENNOTES
    
    

    Re: .21 (re my .19)
    
    What I was trying to say was that some men have commented they don't
    know how to treat the women of today.  They are confused and I think 
    of Mennotes as their place of respite from us jumping down their
    throats for every remark they make.  
    
    Simple remarks can easily become inadvertant insults.  When reading
    Mennotes, I give the writer the benefit of the doubt.  I don't attack,
    I listen.
             

    	RE:  .21 
    
    	Steve -- I disagree with the idea that "men seem to be less
    	willing to complain when injustices do occur" unless a few
    	key phrases are added:
    
    	"Men seem to be less willing to complain in MENNOTES when 
    	injustices do occur because there are so many other forums that
    	seem more appropriate for their objections, such as SOAPBOX and
    	WOMANNOTES."  :-)  :-)
    
    	Seriously, Steve, I would imagine that MENNOTES is more "peaceful"
    	because "Topics of Interest to Men" does not imply the same
    	sort of controversial material that is implied in the title
    	"Topics of Interest to Women."
    
    	Men's interests and concerns are quite mainstream to our culture
    	(and are thus covered in quite a few other conferences in DEC.)
    	Women share many of those same interests and concerns (and have
    	access to those same files) so WOMANNOTES often ends up being
    	a place to discuss the cultural and political aspects of
    	the women's movement.  Granted, the file is MUCH, MUCH MORE
    	than just that, but nevertheless, WOMANNOTES does frequently
    	get involved in candid discussions about cultural and political
    	issues that can be UNSETTLING to both the men *and* the women
    	who read this conference.  
    
    	What I'm trying to say is that I thought your remark about men
    	being less willing to complain was a tad simplistic (and not
    	an accurate way to describe the differences between MENNOTES
    	and WOMANNOTES.)
    
    	If you meant your comment as a joke, then I do agree with you
    	(that the statement is humorous.)  :-)  :-)
    
    							Suzanne... :-)

    Re: .25
    
    I meant the remark seriously.  Obviously you consider the
    attribute of "being willing to complain" a negative one -
    I don't.  Men traditionally don't let on to others what's
    bugging them, except in the most private circumstances, and
    often not even then.  This isn't terribly healthy.  Women
    traditionally are more open with their feelings.
    
    One of the things I've had to learn recently is how to let people
    know that I'm upset, rather than letting it simmer inside.  I
    wish more men did feel free to discuss controversial issues in
    MENNOTES, but few do.  Many of those who say anything try to
    make jokes about it.  Men aren't supposed to have feelings,
    remember?
    				Steve

    	RE:  .26
    
    	Ok, yes, I do see what you meant by that now.
    
    	I did take the meaning of "willing to complain" as negative
    	(as if you felt that women's "willingness to complain" was
    	the reason why WOMANNOTES lacks the "peaceful" quality of
    	MENNOTES, or the "boring" quality -- depending on how one
    	chooses to look at it.)  :-)
    
    	I do still think, however, that if men *DID* choose to talk
    	about the controversial issues involving men's feelings (what-
    	ever those issues might be) that the file would *STILL* be
    	"peaceful."  I doubt very much that women would be shocked
    	or disturbed much by almost anything men had to say (if it
    	came from their own feelings.)
    
    	In WOMANNOTES, on the other hand, it is not uncommon for some
    	men to be both shocked and disturbed at the deep feelings that
    	some women have about issues involving women (and in those
    	cases, some men are not shy at all about coming back in a strong
    	voice to question and argue with our feelings.)
    
    	That's where a lot of the controversy comes from in WOMANNOTES.
    
    	It is definitely good that women seem to be able to open up
    	about our feelings, but we are often called upon to defend the
    	validity of those feelings (and such discussions can get heated
    	pretty fast.)
    
    	I don't think that women tend to do that sort of thing to men
    	in MENNOTES.
    
    	Not a severe criticism or anything -- just a general observation.
    
    	Thanks for clearing up what you meant, though.  I do understand
    	now and agree with you that (in general) men probably do not
    	seem to talk about their feelings as openly as women do.
    
    							Suzanne... :-)

    	RE:  .26
    
    	By the way, I have noticed a *BIG* improvement in the area
    	of tolerance exhibited by the guests of WOMANNOTES lately.
    	And I've also seen some other very positive changes in
    	communication between men and women here.
    
    	Hopefully, WOMANNOTES will be "peaceful yet still interesting"
    	(and we'll all have time to peek into MENNOTES to see if men
    	have become more willing to talk about their own feelings now.)
    
    	I see some very positive things happening in notes these days!!
    
    							Suzanne... :-)

    Re: .26
    
    > Men traditionally don't let on to others what's bugging them, except in
    > the most private circumstances, and often not even then.  This isn't
    > terribly healthy.  Women traditionally are more open with their
    > feelings. 

    > Men aren't supposed to have feelings, remember?
    
    I agree with Steve on this one.  There was once a time when women
    were unhappy with their assigned role in this society but there
    was strong pressure for her not to talk about it.  The woman's
    movement has changed that.  Women are still not happy with the
    limited additional freedom brought by the woman's movement but at
    least they are more free to talk about the injustices now.
    
    That change has yet to come about for men.  There is still very
    strong pressure on men not to talk about their feelings about
    their roles.  I do not follow MENNOTES because I don't expect to
    see any real feelings talked about.  One of the reasons I am here
    is because here I do get to hear about some real feelings.
    
    Re: .27
    
    > I doubt very much that women would be shocked or disturbed much by
    > almost anything men had to say (if it came from their own feelings.)
    
    In a very real sense this might be impossible for you to judge.
    You have not herd any of men's real feelings so there is no way
    for you to know if you or another women would be shocked by it.
    
    Of late, I have gotten more in touch with my feelings about how
    men are treated by the current society and I think that women would
    be shocked to hear about them.  To the extent that I have talked
    about those feelings in this notes file I have gotten the same
    kind of push-back as the women have here.  I still have many
    feelings that are still not expressed because of the strong
    pressure that says that a real man does not complain - a real
    man is supposed to bite the bullet or get to work and do something
    about it.

    						MJC O->

    Couldn't this discussion of men's feelings move to MENNOTES?
    Or is this not a topic of interest for men?  :-)

    Re: .30
    
    Do I take it then that you, or women in general (in your opinion), 
    have no interest in men's feelings?
    
    There have been several good topics in MENNOTES discussing women's
    feelings, and I don't see anyone yawning there.
    
    					Steve

    Re: .30
    
    The subject that were discussing was not "Men's feelings" but "Woman's
    potential reaction to men's feelings".  It seems that you are
    reinforcing my argument. Men are not encouraged to talk about
    their feelings. In fact in this file men are encouraged to
    take it elsewhere.
    
    Gag!

    re.32
    i dont agree with you.
    i for one am interested in hearing about mens feelings about"womens"
    isssues.
    this is an open file and we do not have the right to exclude anybody.
    
    if i have a question about mens feelings,i will post it in mennotes.
    i would hope that men would feel free to do the same here.
    
    kelly

    Mike I would have to agree with Suzanne that we will never know
    if your feelings would shock the female audience here unless you
    are willing to share them. (and if you want to enter really
    personal feelings annoymously *please* feel free to contact either
    Maggie or I by mail.)
    
    While it would be a "goodness" if men were able to open up more
    in Mennotes about feelings, I think that any member of our 'family'
    here in Womannotes (and that includes all you read only noters as
    well) should feel welcome and encouraged to share with the rest
    of the community.
    
    Bonnie J

    ...and, as Bonnie very rightly says, anyone is welcome to post
    anonymously, by email to either of us, if that will best meet your
    needs. 
    
    						=maggie