Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    
    
    I don't believe I can be that sympathetic with nurses.  My
    mother has been hospitalized about 100 times over the last
    20 years for breast cancer, lupis, multiple schlorosis, and
    other ailments caused by these diseases.  My mom is a very
    undemanding, softspoken woman who minds her own business and
    makes us very angry because she doesn't complain about the
    treatment the nurses give her.  She has been in various
    hospitals, local, and in Boston, and I can't say that the
    nurses were any better in any of the hospitals.
    
    The last time she was hospitilized, there were no beds 
    available in the regular rooms so they had to make room for
    my mom in the medicaid ward.  WEll, my mom worked for 18
    years as a teacher and is insured under BlueCross Blue
    Shield.  The nurses assumed that my mother was a welfare
    patient and treated her as such.  What gave them the right
    to do these things I don't know.
    
    1.  They made insulting remarks inferring that my mom should
        get a job and pay her own medical bills.
    
    2.  When she vomited, they walked past her numerous times
        and told her she could stay like that.
    
    3.  They with-held her pain medication after she'd beeped
        and asked for it.  They held it back an average of 2
        to 4 hours and WE, her family, had to go and get it
        from the nurses.
    
    4.  She was given antiboitics the 4th day of her stay and
        inquired why her doctor had put her on them, but that
        evening, the antibiotics were gone.  The woman across
        the ailse that got the antibiotics, got my mother's
        heart pill.
    
    5.  The nurses were rude, unhelpful, and openly insulting
        to my mother and other patients BUT not when the family
        was there.
    
    I don't think any nurse has a right to treat people in this
    manner just because they might or might not be on welfare.
    I had to go to the hospital EVERY night for 3 weeks to make
    sure the care the nurses weren't giving her were done while
    I was there.  It turned out that my mother knew the head
    nurse and I asked her why she didn't call her and report
    this.  She said it probably wouldn't help.  I insisted that
    she do so and she was assured that this treatment would
    change.
    
    My mother has been in since and the treatment of the nurses
    hasn't been much better.  I can't understand why these people
    are in nursing to begin with if they can't be sympathetic
    to sick people and people on medicaid.
    
    

    Re .1, I certainly don't think that Medicaid patients should be
    treated any differently from insured patients.  This should make
    no difference to the nurses.  The nurses are going to get paid for
    doing their job anyway.  I'm sure that, as in any profession, there
    are good nurses and bad nurses.  And, just because there are some
    mean nurses does not mean that the profession, as a whole, should
    not be improved as far as working conditions go.  In fact, if working
    conditions, benefits and pay were better it might improve the attitude
    of some of the nurses.
    
    I don't even like the idea that Medicaid patients be placed in a
    separate ward, though.  The country offers a benefit to it's citizens
    and then the hospital stigmatizes the citizens for taking advantage
    of the benefit??  A lot of the women who now make up the elderly
    of this country are widows who probably lost their insurance benefits
    when their husbands died, and didn't have the money to purchase
    their own insurance.  When the elderly of today were young it was
    not as common for people to have all sorts retirement plans to help
    them out, as are becoming available today.  Just because these elderly
    are on Medicaid now does not mean they were lazy bums when they
    were young.  It just means they didn't have enough money to save,
    or know enough to plan for old age.  It's cruel to punish them for
    this by treating them worse than wealthier patients.
    
    But, I don't think this is the same issue as improving the working
    conditions of nurses.
    
    I don't really know any facts about this, but don't see how anybody
    could fail to have some opinions.  
    
    Lorna
    

    re .1:
    
    Maybe the nurses are "burnt out" from lack of respect, low pay,
    tremendous responsibility, long, back-breaking hours, and no
    advancement opportunites.
    
    	-Ellen

    You can't really generalize about this subject.  There are GOOD
    nurses out there.  Any time I've been in the hospital I haven't
    been really happy with the nursing care BUT....when my daughter
    was in Childrens Hospital she and I were treated very well.  It
    really depends on the nurse.  There just happen to be lots of great
    nurses at Childrens. 
    

    re .3 - You said it!  My older sister and a former roommate of mine
    are both nurses, and several other friends of mine are nurses as
    well.  I truly believe there is no other occupation that is so very
    important and where the working conditions are worse.  Nurses are
    truly grossly underpaid, not respected by doctors (that goes for
    male and female doctors, and male and female nurses), intensely
    overworked, and generally worn out.  My sister lost 20 lbs in her
    first summer after graduation (she was only 130 to start with!)
    because of all the running around, literally, she was doing at work.
    On most days, she barely had a chance to visit the lady's room,
    much less have lunch, or give proper care.  The most frustrating
    thing I've heard from my friends is that they are trained to give
    a certain quality of care when they are in school, but their care
    loads are so high that they barely have time to deliver medication.
    And at most hospitals, the nurses are NOT allowed overtime pay,
    unless they request overtime at the start of the day.  So, if you
    don't finish your duties on time, you must stay the extra hour or
    so and do it, but don't expect to be paid for it.  And the worse
    part is, nurses only make $8 - $9 per hour!  (last year's rate at
    Mt. Auburn Hospital in Belmont).  That is truly outrageous, qwhen
    you consider that the Internation Paper factory workers in Main who are
    currently on strike make over $17 per hour, and a worker on Ford's
    assembly line makes $20 (data from last night's news).
    
    The sad truth is that nursing conditionsa are so bad, that a good
    many of them leave the hospitals.  My sister was working in a hospital
    on a medical/surgical floor, she is now a visiting nurse supervisor.
    My old roommate was on a surgical floor, she transferred to maternity,
    due to the lighter workload (SHE had also lost a tremendous amount
    of weight after graduation, due to the "running around" at work).
    Another friend was an emergency room nurse, she has since quit and
    gone to school for (of all things) computer science.  This particular
    friend's mother has been a geriatrics nurse for 25 years, and told
    her daughter repeatedly not to become a nurse, because the work
    was so hard.  
    
    And, although most nurses never have the time to give the quality
    care they want to (wherever did the backrub myth start, I wonder?),
    I have never heard of the rudeness mentioned in .1.  But perhaps
    it is caused by the truly good nurses leaving the hospitals, because
    the conditions there are so incredibly bad.
    
    I know I have been rambling, but this is something I feel strongly
    about.  And .1 points out that the bad conditions are not just
    affecting the lives of the nurses, but those of the patients as
    well.
    
    :-(
    Lynne

    re .0:
    
    	I applaud your concern for the nursing profession... however
    I find it curious that you have placed this note in Womannotes.
    The issue pertains to male nurses as well as female nurses, does
    it not?
    
    Marge

    	RE: .4 & .5
    
    	I appreciate you comments. My wife is a nurse, and a very
    	good one. Some of the stories she could tell.
    
    	RE: Generalizations
    	
    	If you want to generalize, don't forget the doctors. Some of them
    	shouldn't be allowed near a hospital, let alone inside one.
    
    	Usually, generalizations about any group are very degrading,
    	and quite unfair. The same generalizations made about nurses,
    	doctors, dog catchers, etc., could be made about programmers,
    	engineers, managers, writers, etc.
    
    	Scott
    
    	

    RE: Medicaid, etc.
    
    My mother WAS a Medicaid patient. She was treated wonderfully. I
    was in Littleton while she was hospitalized in Springfield, so I
    couldn't be therre except on week-ends. I felt that not only did
    she get excellent care, but that she was really among *friends*.
    
    She was hospitalized from Oct to Feb, then again April and May (for
    the last time). When the nurses heard she was coming back in, they
    arranged to have "her" old room ready for her so she could be as
    confortable as possible. They were working double and triple shifts
    due to cut-backs, and yet many of them stopped by my mother's room
    on their way home just to chat with her.
    
    Since she spent Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year's in the
    hospital, I've stopped by on holidays with donuts or goodies for
    the nurses on duty. And the one nurse who'd been a special friend
    to mother took me for a walk down the corridor and chatted with
    me. It was a necessary thing for me to do, and she was a)perceptive
    enuff to know that, and B) kind enuff to be there for me. I could
    go on and on. 
    
    Nurses are the people who do ALL the work. Doctors do very little
    of the caring for patients. Doctors write things on charts and leave.
    Nurses are there at least 8 and often more hours. They are the first
    to see cuts, and among the worst-paid. Gad, I wish I had the
    statistics, because I think this is a very worthy project.
    
    Dawn
    

re: .6
I'm under the impression that the fact that nursing is an underrated
profession, and that it is predominantly peopled by women, are not
un-related facts. Also, any hints I've picked up that nursing is underrated
etc. have all been in a feminist context. 

Are you making any other point I should be aware of?
	Mez

    Mez, 
    did you see the article in a recent Globe about nursing in New England?
    It talked a lot about women who'd left for more lucrative (and less
    trained) careers; it also mentioned the number of schools and training
    hospitals that have closed in the past couple of years, most notably
    BU School of Nursing and the Deaconess (I think)[both of which were
    still quite active 5 years ago].
    
    At that time, at the BI, there were some nurses who were men, but
    not many, and I think they were pretty much only working in one
    or two wards (out of, er about two dozen?).  And of course, the
    ugly rumor was that they were all gay; of course, similar things
    were said about most of the blood labs techs who were men (and who
    were similarly rare).  As if that was the reason they'd chosen to
    go for a "woman's occupation".  Feh!  It wasn't true, anyway.
    But it's part of why I hated working in a hospital: the eternal
    pecking order and the de-humanization of everyone.

    Nursing is still considered to be a woman's profession by so many
    people that I think it is reasonable to talk about it in womans
    notes. It is interesting that nursing is one area where there is
    definite discrimination against men. While female nurses are expected
    to bathe and care for patients of all sexes, generally male nurses
    are not allowed to perform intimate care for women.
    Bonnie J

< Note 411.11 by STUBBI::B_REINKE "where the side walk ends" >
                            -< Nursing and gender >-

>    It is interesting that nursing is one area where there is
>    definite discrimination against men. While female nurses are expected
>    to bathe and care for patients of all sexes, generally male nurses
>    are not allowed to perform intimate care for women.
>    Bonnie J

    As opposed to doctors, where men can treat patients of both sexes,
    but  (at  least  a few years ago) women couldn't become urologists
    because  it  was claimed that men would "feel funny" about a woman
    urologist.  It  seems  that  when  the  society is sexist it isn't
    consistent in anything except its sexism.

--David

    However bad it may be Stateside, apparently nurses are even worse off 
    here (in the UK).  
    
    A couple of months ago there were quite a few news stories about 
    US hospitals recruiting here ... tempting nurses away with promises 
    of 'fabulous' salaries.  They probably forgot to mention the higher
    cost of living.
    

    Last night, I talked to a former coworker who's wife is a nurse.
    He said that at 26, after 4 years in the nursing profession, she
    would be at the top of her pay scale. After that, she could only
    expect cost of living raises.
    
    Is this normal in _any_ other profession, career, or job????
    	Mez

    While travelling a few years ago I saw an interesting story in a
    newspaper. It said that some doctor in the UK had suggested that nurses
    dress up a little more, be a little more sexy-looking, because that
    would be good for the male patients. The headline was something like
    "Nurses knickers a tonic for patients." (To boost the female patients'
    morale, the doctor suggested providing them with hairdressers.)

    I can't imagine that the suggestions were taken, but it certainly shows
    how well-respected nurses are.

    					-- hs

< re to note 411.11 by STUBBI::B_REINKE >

>>>    Nursing is still considered to be a woman's profession by so many
>>>    people that I think it is reasonable to talk about it in womans
>>>    notes. It is interesting that nursing is one area where there is
>>>    definite discrimination against men. While female nurses are expected
>>>    to bathe and care for patients of all sexes, generally male nurses
>>>    are not allowed to perform intimate care for women.
>>>    Bonnie J


Last year while I was in the hopital after having my baby, The nurse (female)
asked my roommate if she would mind having a male nurse the next few days.
She, my roommate, replied that she would prefer having a female nurse.  I
was "checking out" the next day, so I wasn't asked - It wouldn't have 
bothered me though, In fact I would have loved to have him for my nurse,
Just to show my roommate he could do the job just as well.

/robin

    The final comments in the last reply bring to mind the following:
    
    In Britain the penetration of men into nursing is somewhat higher than
    in America (largely due to anti-sex discrimination legislation). However
    one branch of nursing that is legally forbidden to men is midwifery
    (male doctors can be ob/gyn specialists or whatever, but male nurses
    cannot be midwives).
    
    A friend of mine was a good [male] nurse, but found that he couldn't
    get promoted to Senior Nursing Officer (= "sister") because he didn't
    have a qualification in midwifery. It took the union and the lawyers
    about a year to crack that one, and he eventually got a promotion with
    1 year of retroactive salary increase and seniority.
    
    /. Ian .\

    RE: Being at the "top" after 4 years. Even in the public schools
    you get a better deal than THAT. (12 years, where I taught - and
    that's with out on-going education)
    
    Ian - "The *penetration* of men into nursing"?!? Interesting choice
    of words... :-)
    
    Dawn
    

�   Interesting choice of words... :-)
                       
    Freudian I assure you... (anybody know the icon that means "my face
    is bright pink")
    
    /. Ian .\

Just an anecdote about my son, who was in Children's for an emergency
ileocecectomy (btw, they had to put him up in the leukemia ward because
of bed availability, and all those nurses there are candidates for 
sainthood).  He was going through a phase of deciding what he wanted to 
be when he grew up, and as a result of his experience there he decided 
to be a nurse, so he could "help kids like himself".  Someone asked him 
why he chose to be a nurse rather than a doctor, and he answered that 
doctors don't do anything except come by your room once a day.  It's 
nurses that actually take care of people.

	Just a few weeks ago, I heard a news spot about the nurse
shortage. I cannot remember now just what (male) hospital or government
official was talking, only that among the 3 or 4 reasons he blamed for
the shortage, was, of course, "feminism".

	Seems that there is now a big problem - too many bright, caring
young women now have too much self-respect to sign up for a lifetime of
ridiculous hours, insulting pay, and abysmal treatment by doctors,
administrators, and sometimes even the very patients they're caring for.
(This last, while not excusable, is perhaps more understandable; there
must be a lot of anger, bitterness, and resent about being seriously ill/old/
dying, and it's easy to take such things out on whoever's there- the nurse,
most of the time.)

	99.9% of nurses = saints and heros , from what I can see.

    RE:.21
    
    (In essence) taking "guff" from patients. Very simnilar to taking
    "guff" from students.
    
    You can handle it - it's part of the job in working with people,
    IF YOU GET THE RESPECT AND MONEY YOU DESERVE from your employer(s).
    
    Neither nurses nor teachers have the power in their jobs, nor the
    respect from employers. (Unless they need something from you, in
    which case you instantly become  the most "dedicated" person they've
    ever known - not to mention "valueable")
    
    (If I'm that valueable, pay me well)
    
    One also tends to get the ol' guilt-trip extraorinaire:
    
    "Do it for the  kids/patients" (i.e, if you don't, you're one step
    lower than pond-scum)
    
    Dawn
    

re: .21

That _is_ funny. I just read an editorial from a May '87 MGH bulletin.
The guy said that women's liberation caused the current nursing shortage,
since it opened many new career paths to women, while denigrating nursing.
What a _scream_! I suppose the folks who have been paying nurses too
little, and giving them too much guff, weren't denigrating nursing.
They were putting the nurses on a pedistal. They merely weren't putting
their money where their mouth is. Lord what fools we mortals be (apoligies
Bill).
	Mez

re: .23

> That _is_ funny. I just read an editorial from a May '87 MGH bulletin.
> The guy said that women's liberation caused the current nursing shortage,
> since it opened many new career paths to women, while denigrating nursing.
> What a _scream_! I suppose the folks who have been paying nurses too
> little, and giving them too much guff, weren't denigrating nursing.
> They were putting the nurses on a pedistal. They merely weren't putting
> their money where their mouth is. Lord what fools we mortals be (apoligies
> Bill).
> 	Mez
> 

It figures to come out of MGH. My wife graduated from MGH and worked
there for a few years. A great place to learn, but they were in
the dark ages!  You should see the uniforms the students had to
wear! Comfort was not important, tradition was. I tried to talk
her out of being a nurse when she told me that one of the teachers
said "Its a privelege to work ridiculous hours, low pay and to be 
sh*t on by patients and doctors"  (not the real quote, but that's
what it sounded like to me. Needless to say, after ten years of
being a nurse, she finally changed careers.

Last summer we met with a bunch of her floormates from the dorm,
all but one was still working as a nurse. One  women had married
a male nurse, and he wasn't treated any better (he was quitting also)

Sorry for the ranting, but I know what it is like to live with
a very dedicated nurse.

Thanks for listening,

Vin

    When nurses treat the people considered lower than them (orderlies,
    nurses aids, housekeeping aids) with the same respect they want,
    then I for one will be sympathetic to them, but not until then. 
    It seems to me they subscribe to the old theory, s___ rolls down 
    hill, because they vent their frustrations on these groups and then
    at the same time ask for support.  Any of you that have nurses as
    familiy members, friends, etc might ask them to evaluate how they
    treat others they work with.  
    
    Now before any flames I don't feel nurses should be treated the way 
    they are by doctors, administrators, etc.  If everyone would only
    remember "Do unto others...".
    
    
    JEF

    to JEF: 
    wait a minute  -- do you mean that ALL nurses behave disrespectfully
    towards "the people considered lower than them"? Are you saying
    that nurses should be "kept in their place" until they can "learn
    to be civil"? Surely there's at least ONE nurse who doesn't behave
    as you describe.

    From what I saw, most everybody makes sure their status in known
    to a person perceived lower in status, although it wasn't usually
    done crudely.  Orderlies were usually the
    friendliest to everybody, but this is probably one of the required 
    people-skills (also, this is often a non-permanent position--orderlies
    were often students, writers, artists).
    Nobody talks to the folks with the mops.
    
    If you're going to criticize nurses, you're going to have to criticize
    on up the ladder too (doctors, chief administrators, and so on).

    Re: .26
    
    My first reaction to your note was to get mad and fire off a salvo
    note in response, then I read it and my note again and can see how 
    you could arrive at your conclusion.  I DID NOT mean ALL nurses
    "behave disrespectfully" or "should be kept in their place", only the 
    ones that act as I stated.  I do feel though that the ones that don't 
    act the way I described are fewer in number than you and others
    would want to believe.  I worked in a hospital (not in any of the
    jobs I mentioned) in a capacity that allowed me to observe how nurses
    interacted with their co-workers.  That and the fact my wife currently
    works in a hospital (in one of the jobs I mentioned) leads me to my
    conclusion and my feelings.  This is not the first hospital my wife
    has worked in and she has observed these same actions for years and it 
    is only getting worse.  I have even less respect for doctors after
    having watched doctors in training come in as caring and respectful
    people and watch the majority of them turn into jerks in less than
    6 months.                                 
                                              
    Re: .27                                   
                                              
    If you go back and read my note carefully you will see (last paragraph)
    that I did include those you mention in my condemnation.  I think
    you reacted as I did initially when I read .26's note.
                                              
                                              
    JEF                                       
                                              

    re .28
    
    I know, I know: I was only agreeing with you on that.  However,
    the doctors and administrators aren't complaining about their
    treatment (Martin mentioned long hours somewhere but I don't know
    if that was a complaint (and it was another note) ).
    
    Clearly, no one in a hospital is paid more for treating other hospital
    employees nicely!  :-)

    Re: .27
    
    OOoooooooh! How can you say that people in the hospitals are
    snobs???Especially nurses? (I drag that out of the comment you made
    about no one ever talking to the guy who carried the mop.)
    
    BULLLLLLLLTICKEY!!!!!
    
    Maybe if you head up into the ranks ranks of the doctors that may
    have been true. When I worked at a hospital for three and a half
    years everyone talked to every one! regardless of age, race color
    or religion. Now back to nurses....
    
    Nurses work hard long hours to get yelled at for little things,
    bothering a doctor because they can't read his/her writing, not
    making a bed properly because they couldn't move the patient and
    no one was there to assist them, making judgement calls that should
    have been "Made by the docotr" but the doctor couldn't be found.
    
    I could go on, I know not all nurses are gold but they work very
    hard to be what they are. Most of them were very friendly, funny,
    sweet, caring, down to earth people to be with. They don't they
    the accredation, or respect they really truly deserve.
    
    My hat goes off to nurses and how well they perform their jobs under
    duress and ever changing conditions.
    
    
    Debbi

    For those of you who have access to a paper with Ann Landers in
    it - there was a long letter printed yesterday by a nurse describing
    what a typical shift is like and how busy/stressed out the typical
    nurse is. At lot of what may be considered snobbery is more likely
    to be overwork.

    re .30  You work at the BI?  I did.  Sure, hospitals can be different.
    Also, the way one treats patients is often radically different than
    the way one treats fellow employees.

    I've had two very different experiences with nurses.  When my daughter
    was in the neonatal intensive care unit at Worcester (Ma) Memorial,
    I was there practically around the clock for those two months. 
    Every single one of those nurses had the life of a critically infant
    in her hands.  They were highly trained specialists who were paid
    horribly and had to punch in and out...BUT they were not allowed
    to punch in more than 10 minutes early or punch out more than 10
    minutes late (then they might get overtime pay!), so most of them
    would start work, for example, at 1:45 or 2:00, then at 2:45 they
    would trek down to another part of the hospital, punch in and come
    back to "start" their 3:00-11:00 shift.  They would the same at
    the other end.  They worked very long days on their feet the whole
    time.  Despite the incredible physical and emotional stress they
    
    worked under most of the time, they were always very pleasant to
    the babies' parents, taking the time to explain things, make them
    as comfortable as possible in cramped quarters, checking on the
    mothers who were stil patients before going home, etc.  I must say,
    though, that the doctors--about 50% men and 50% women--demonstrated
    a great deal of respect for the nurses.  They, however, didn't have
    to punch a clock!
    
    Before my mother died, she had many operations at MGH (that's Mass.
    General Hospital for you non-New-Englanders).  There, she received
    --for the most part--TERRIBLE nursing care.  My father and I would
    keep track of her medication, handle and clean the bedpan, wash
    
    her and feed her.  However, the nurses were obviously extremely
    overworked.  I don't know what other patients did that did not have
    family close by.  I did not have a chance to watch the interaction
    between doctors, nurses and others on the hospital hierarchy.  
    
    ---
    
    On Oprah Winfrey, a couple of weeks  ago, there was a show on Nurses.
    She had several nurses on the stage and an audience full of them.
     Every single one of the "featured" nurses says they have put a
    life in a danger because they are overworked.  They sometimes have
    to handle numerous critical patients who are dispersed through the
    ward and who each require constant monitoring.  And they just cannot
    physically do it all.
    
    They also pointed out that a nurse with many years experience (I
    think it was 20) averages about 15% more than a nurse just starting
    out. That's outrageous.  An engineer probably ends up with a 400%
    increase in that time!
    
    --
    
    Would the administrator who blames the nursing shortage on feminism
    blame a janitor shortage on the civil rights movement?  How do you
    respond to such logic?
    
    -Tracy
    

    
    re: negative replies about nursing/nurses
    we get jerks in police, government, digital, registry...everywhere.
    
    these people will be shot right after YOU see to it that i'm elected
    president and then WE CAN REALLY CHANGE AMERICA...if not th eworld.
    
    re: postive replies regarding nurses/nursing
    have heard negative stories but have only experienced positive
    stuff myself.
    
    2 or 3 weeks ago oprah winfrey had a show on nursing and they talked
    about the conditions of nursing which included most of what
    has been already been said;
    	ridiculously low pay
    	incredibly long hours
    	no respect
    
    and they attributed the nursing shortage to these facts....
    
    and of course, this is all true because it is a traditional
    female role.