Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    It's evident that taking your husband's family name is a very important
    *symbol* to your husband's family.
    
    This is a guess, but it sounds to me like their strategy is a cross
    between "Let's ignore it and it will go away" (it being your "odd"
    preference to use your birth name :-)  ), and "Let's just act like
    it really is the way we want it to be".
    
    Both of those are powerful and manipulative strategies which are
    often used by people who are absolutely certain that they are right.
    
    In my book, though, it is your right to decide what people will
    call you.  It is your legal right.  I think it would be important
    to speak to your in-laws and tell them that you appreciate
    the fact that they want to welcome you and make you feel a part
    of their family by using your husband's name, but that it is not
    the name you are called or wish to use.  You will probably get a
    barrage of arguments about why you *should* want to do what they want,
    but I think you could try to sidestep a discussion of what you should
    want to do and keep repeating (calmly) that you do not use that
    name and that it is not appropriate to keep calling you by it.
    
    This is all good in theory, I know...good luck with whatever you
    decide to do.
    
    Holly

    Two instances where marriages/remarriages occurred, and their result:
    
    A woman I know was born Sara Jane Tallman.
    After her first marriage:  Sara Tallman Grusin.
    After her first divorce: Sara Tallman Grusin.
    After her second marriage: Sara Tallman Kane.
    After her second divorce: Primarily Sara Kane, although her checks
    officially sublist Sara Jane Tallman Kane.
    
    how confusing.
    
    My aunt was born Elizabeth Winthrop Bolster
    Her first marriage yielded Elizabeth Winthrop Russell
    Her divorce yielded Elizabeth Winthrop Russell
    Her next marriage - to a very liberated man with a hyphenated
       last name reflecting both his parents' wishes (Bob Staley-Mays)
       yielded a complete turnaround, as she got her name legally changed
       to Katherine Hope Winthrop (I suppose it sounds good for her
       occupation - she's a minister (Unitarian, if you're interested)).
       -- Well at least it's shorter than the full extent of
          Elizabeth Winthrop Bolster Russell Staley-Mays
    
    
    -to each their own.  Do what's comfortable
    ----Jody
        
    
    
    

    Oh, my.  I can relate to this discussion.
    
    Shortly before my first marriage, I was stunned
    when someone teasingly referred to me as Mrs. Smith.
    It had not until that time occurred to me to change
    my name.  (this was in 1975, when it was not 'common'
    for a woman to retain her maiden name)  At any rate,
    I politely informed those who asked that my name had
    always been and would always be, Deborah Kay Wolbach.
    Period.  My in-laws were the most upset, however they
    did eventually become used to it.
    
    I have recently re-married.  Again, the 2nd-most-asked
    question has been "What name are you using?"  My reply
    depends upon my mood, or how many times that day I've
    heard the question. Usually along the lines of "The
    one I've always used" but if I'm feeling crabby I just
    say "The same name I've always used, of course!"  
    
    Personally (that is, I do not mean to offend those of
    you who chose to assume the name of your husband) I do
    not understand why anyone would want to change their
    name.  Mine has served me well for 35 years, and I'm
    sort of used to it.  Besides, it makes record-keeping
    much easier.  
    
    I can say that it's a lot 'easier' in today not to use
    my husbands name; that is, it's more 'accepted' than it
    was 12 years ago. 
    
     

    re: .0
    I would sugst that you refuse to let the folks manipulate you.
    Tell them a couple of more times what your name is, and inform them
    that you and your spouse will only read mail that is addressed to
    you and your spouse, not some fictional person.
    
    This has been a problem in our house, and we have handled it in
    that manner.  It has worked beautifully, and now the only times
    mail comes to the wrong name is wh� they actually slip.
    
               Carol

    I've used my husband's name since we were married in 1973.  Wish
    I'd kept mine.  I thought about keeping my own name, and that was fine
    with him, but I decided the bureaucratic hassel would be a continuing 
    pain.   So I started using his.  Dumb!

    I write freelance stuff under my own name, Meigs Delaney, and during
    those periods when I'm writing a lot, and someone asks me my name,
    I come up blank. Or I hesitate for two or three seconds while 
    deciding what name this person should know me by. (This pause makes
    people about to cash a check veeerrrry uncomfortable.)  

    I think what's really going on is ... I prefer my own name and 
    go through a mini-storm whenever the two names are contesting each 
    other.  (Names have been trouble to me. I wanted to take Tekawatha 
    as my confirmation name but didn't have the nerve to ask. And I'm not 
    delighted that so many babies are begin named Meigs, Megs, Meg, and 
    Megan. I feel like I'm losing something.)

    Keep your name.  Going the other way invites anger.  It might be a good
    strategy to work out several short, neutral sentences that you can
    whip out when needed: "Call me at work.  Just ask the switchboard 
    McCormick."   (oops, your full name has left me)

>   "Why should I make everyone else happy?"  

    *Don't*  Keep your own name.

>   Much of the response I've gotten is from women who have
    not kept their maiden names and so feel I should either change or
    just put up with it.  

    It's feels like the old routine, "I've suffered, let them suffer." 
         Meigs

    I compromised.  I took Neil's last name and use my maiden name as
    my middle name, hence Bonnie Randall Schutzman.
    
    I still use my own name quite a lot at work and in my writing, but
    for government purposes Neil and I share the same name.  
    
    I admit it was because I didn't want to continue to cope with the
    kind of hassles you're getting.  It's so much more convenient when
    all members of a household share the same name.  
    
    Kathy intends to use my maiden name (which is her birth name since I
    wasn't married at the time) as her professional name.  Look out world,
    here comes Katlin Randall, rock bass player extraordinaire! 

    As for dealing with people who refuse to address you by your name --
    you may have to resort to the drastic strategy employed by a friend of
    mine whos family refused to acknowledge his conversion to the Moslem
    religion and his new name.  He quit responding in any way to his
    old name.  He didn't complain, or explain, or apologize, just refused
    to respond.  This might not work so well with in-laws, since they
    might be just as glad to have an excuse to write you off.
    
    It might be a good place for your husband to lay down the law to
    his parents.  
    
    --bonnie
    

    During my first marriage I took my husband's last name.  When we
    divorced 8 years later, I changed my name back to my maiden name.
    
    When I re-married three years ago, I chose to continue using my
    maiden name.  My husband and I had lived together for 4+ years prior
    to getting married.  When my husband told his mom we were getting
    married her comment was "It's about time - now I'll know how to
    address cards to you both."  She was rather surprized when he told
    her I was keeping my maiden name.  My mother, on the other hand,
    thought it was wrong.  Of course, my mom also thinks MEN should
    always make more than a women even if they are doing the same job.
    She's always had my Dad's income plus hers so she never had to raise
    kids on her income. If she did, we would have starved....
    
    The only time it was a hassle was when I submitted a medical insurance
    form to his insurance company.  They rejected it and wanted a copy
    of our marriage license before they would honor it.  On our marriage
    license it states that I am retaining my maiden name so it was no
    problem.
    
    I will never change my name regardless of my future.  I like my
    name and feel it is the one thing that no-one can take away from
    me.
    
    I had thought about hyphenating my name with his but I am glad I
    didn't do it.  (Computers still do not recognize a hypen).
    Besides, I never liked the way it sounded.  Lynn Matthews-Friese
    (YUK).
    
    I will always be Lynn Matthews........
    

    
    
    
    I got a good idea of how to deal with the mail.  I'm going to
    mark things, "No such addresee."
    
    There is, however, one advantadge to this whole name problem
    and I'm sure many of you in the same situation have encountered
    it.  When I get a phonecall for Mrs. (Husband's last name), I
    know it is foe, not friend, and tell them there's no such animal.
    They usually turn out to be someone trying to sell you something
    or taking a poll to coke or something.  It's like because I got
    married and all these marketing types think I took my husband's
    name, my old name doesn't exist anymore so I don't get this
    calls under my real name.
    
    I had thought of hyphenating my name too but I figured that was
    still giving in to pressure from family.  I'm the one that loses
    my middle name which I happen to havre had since birth and would
    like to keep, AND it seems my name would go in the middle.  It
    just seemed the same as relenting and taking his name but to
    throw me a little morsel, people would let me stick my maiden
    name in the middle.
    
    

    
    My husbands' brother decided to take his wifes' last name, Clymer
    (something to do with being wanted by the law :^) and even 
    though the family thought it unusual, nobody really complained...
    until they had their first son, they named him Clyff.

    I don't ever remember even considering keeping my maiden name back
    in '73 when we married.  But when I think about it, it really 
    wouldn't have made much sense.  I went from Powell to Newell, not
    a particularily drastic change.
    
    Jodi

    When you have straight blonde hair and a last name like
    "Broomhead", you either drop that name at the first opportunity,
    or hang on to it like grim death.
    
    I am in the latter category.  When I got married, I tacked my
    husband's name onto the end, becoming Ann Alleda Broomhead McMumble.
    When I got divorced, I dropped the addition.  The hassle hasn't
    been *too* bad, and I have a joint checking account with myself
    under the old name, which resolves a few problems.
    
    By the way, should it happen that I marry again, it will not happen
    that I modify my name again.
    
    							Ann B.

    Wish my father had taken my mother's name. Would prefer
    'Sorel' to 'Charbonneau'. Easier to write, also prettier.
    
    Re.0  Simply hand all mail adressed to Mrs.(husband's name)
    to your mother-in-law. Explain that these *must* be hers,
    cause you're NOT Mrs.(  )  Works better with bills ;-)

    I always got a kick out of the term "maiden name". Surely,
    before marraige, I spent my time in a medieval tower, trying
    to braid my maiden hair into a maiden ladder so that I could escape
    and lose my maiden name along with my maiden head (right, virginity).
    Now that I'm married, is it my "oldhag name"? Even though it's the
    same name? (I was an oldhag long before the wedding, anyway.)
    

    	Being a male and of a different generation from many of the
    noters in this file, I don't quite understand the concern about
    something as trivial to me as a surname.  Do people really care
    whose surname the couple takes?  If I had taken my fist or second
    wife's surname would I be a different person? No.  Were they different
    people for having taken my surname?  Not that I noticed or they
    ever mentioned.  Libby's surname was Williams before we married
    and it is Williams now.  She took my surname, which happened to
    be the same as her surname.  Is she a different person bacause of
    it?  No.
    
    	Some of the noters suggest the taking of the male's surname
    is a statement of giving in.  Why can't it be a statement of love?
    Do many men take the surname fo their wives?  I would have if Libby's
    surname impressed me.  The hassle names can cause people is wll
    known to me.  My parents named me Francis Douglas Edward Williams
    (what they lacked in money they made up for in letters) and called
    me Douglas, making my name F. Douglas E. Williams.  I dropped the
    E. when I entered high school but kept the F.  Some of the programmers
    among us might recall that it hasn't been until quite recently that
    names with a first initial followed by a middle and surname were
    acceptable to computers (not all programmers recognized a world
    outide their cubicles).  One result of the dawning of the computer
    age into my life was my becoming Francis D. Williams every time
    I ran out of the energy to fight the stupidity.  To this day my
    driver's license has my name as Francis D. Williams, as does my
    passport.  I fought this nonsense for many years before realizing
    it wasn't worth the effort.  If financial institutions want to lend
    me money they'll work around the name nonsense.  The same with anyone
    who wants to sell me anything else or utilize me in any way.
    
    	"What's in a name?  Would not a rose by any other name smell
    as sweet?"                
    
    Douglas

    Doug:
    
    A good friend of mine recently got married, and his bride said she
    would like to add his name on to hers.  She viewed it as a joining
    of their paths.
    
    Another good friend recently got married and kept her name.  She
    viewed it (as I believe most people who keep their names invariant
    across marriage do) as an affirmation of her individual existence,
    separate from her husband's existence.
    
    Yes, people care what they are called, and both of the above are
    valid ways for people to deal with the question.  I grew up in the
    late 60's, and it was extremely difficult in those days to make
    people understand that you didn't take your husband's name.  Fortunately
    it is getting easier to be called what you want to be called without
    having to justify yourself to every bank, credit card company, and
    in-law.
    
    Re .9 (I think)
    
    As a single man, I frequently get calls from telemarketing folk
    for Mrs. Jack.  Although I haven't yet gotten up the nerve to do
    so, I'd like to respond, "I'm sorry, she's just passed away last
    month.  Is it anything I can help you with?" and see what happens.

    Having recently married (I know - I'm boasting again), I gave this issue
    a lot of thought.
    
    I considered several options with Ann, and then I had a conversation
    with a friend who is a lawyer: result...
    
    Since neither Ann nor I are citizens of this fair land we were advised
    very strenuously that she *must* take my name, and that she should only
    use her own last name as a middle name in non-legal communications,
    as anything else, *might* be construed by the US Immigration and
    Naturalization Service as prima facae evidence that the marriage is
    one of convenience...
    
    This issue *will* be revisited if and when children appear on the scene...
    
    /. Ian & Ann .\

    Funny, my in-laws are also resistant and address cards and the like
    to "Stephen and Michaelene Ward", in spite of the fact I've kept my
    own (and very cumbersome) last name, Glowacz.  My parents claim it is
    showing disrespect to Stephen, but secretly I think they are pleased
    because, as the eldest, I was named after my father, Michael.
    
    Either way, I don't let it bother me.  I've found a sense of humor
    is the best way to deal with it.  Just before the wedding, when people
    would ask me if I planned on taking Steve's name, I'd reply:
    
    "Probably not, I don't think I could ever get used to answering
    to "Steve"."
    
    or         
    
    "No, Steve and I BOTH decided to keep our own names."
    
    

    I too have been recently married and kept my name.
    We ordered thank-you notes that had both our names
    engraved on the letterhead so friends and family
    would see  that I've kept my name and Steve has
    kept his.  The PRINTED word is very powerful.  
    
    My uncle is the only one giving me grief.  We 
    address his envelopes to Mr. and Mrs. Mancini
    which is his wife's maiden name.  Or sometimes
    we address the envelope to Mr. Joe Triolo and
    Ms. Pat Mancini so they can figure out how to
    address my husband and I. (monkey see + Monkey
    do).
    
    Good luck and don't give in.
    Vicky Triolo
    
    

    I was recently told by a lawyer that it is becoming LESS common
    these days for women to retain their given names when they marry.
    He said that in his experience it peaked 5-10 years ago.
    
    Of course he might have been saying this to try to explain why
    his office was having such trouble getting the names right on
    the deed (my wife did not take my name). He blamed the "girls"
    in his office.

    Re: .14
    
    We've seen a whole "rose by any other name" topic already so I'll
    keep my comments short.
    
    If you seriously would consider taking your wife's name (if different),
    I applaud and respect you. Quite highly in fact.
    
    You see, I've considered it, and way down deep inside, there's strong
    resistance to changing my name. It's part of me, it says something
    about who I am and where I came from and who my family is. I've
    actually thought about changing my name when I get married, and
    I want to do it, as a gesture (perhaps of defiance) but I don't
    think I will. I CERTAINLY don't expect my partner to change names,
    but that's a decision WE BOTH would make.
    
    We've talked about it (me changing my name), and my SO thinks I'm being
    silly. (That's part of why I probably won't do it; see above.)
    
    I bet I am...
    
    	-- Charles
    
    P.S. On the other hand, when I catch someone giving someone else
    a hard time about NOT changing names, I can be pretty fierce.
    
    P.P.S. English is the pits for non-gender specific writing. I WANT
    A NEUTER PRONOUN FOR PEOPLE!!! "IT" just doesn't hack it.

        No doubt I've said some of this before in the "Mrs. Tulip"
        discussion, but what the heck? I enjoy names and talking about
        them so, I'll put in my 2 cents worth. The way I ramble, of
        course, it'll be more like 6 bits, though... 
        
        I think that some of the problems revolving around women
        "changing their names" when they marry comes from having lost
        touch with our heritage, from having forgotten why we do the
        things we do. Back when the custom of "changing your name" got
        started, it wasn't viewed as changing your name at all. It also
        wasn't done only at marriage or only by women.
        
        In (English dominated) Western European culture, it is rather
        common to have a two part "Christian" or "given" name and a
        "surname". Originally the given names were just single names,
        but for differentiation it became popular to have two given
        names. It is now so common that the beaurocracy can't cope with
        someone with only one given name. Thus you may see "N.M.I." for
        "No Middle Initial". My cousin has it thrown at him all the
        time. 
        
        What we have forgotten is that what we call a person's "given
        name"--that is their first and middle names--were originally
        their real names. The words "surname" and "nickname" mean
        eaxactly the same thing. (Of course today they are used quite
        differently.) The prefix "sur-" means "over, beyond or above". A
        "surname" is an additional name or an epithet given to
        distinguish them from others with the same name. "Nickname" comes
        from "a nekename" which was originally "an eke-name", "eke"
        meaning "additional". 
        
        In many (most?) churches to this day, the given name is treated
        as the only real name. I was baptize "James Lowell" not "James
        Lowell Burrows", and although the inviations spoke of the
        marriage of "James Lowell Burrows" and "Selma Lavelle Brown", it
        was "James Lowell" and "Selma Lavelle" throughout the cerimony.
        
        The point being that when it became the habit of lower and
        middle class women to take the surname of their husband when
        they married, it was not that the "changed their name", but
        rather that they adopted a different nickname. Today we've
        muddled the whole thing into one long name and don't take notice
        of the different statuses ofthe different parts of the name.
        
        The reason that the lower and middle calsses adopted the habit
        of changing surnames at marriage was that they were aping the
        upper classes. The upper classes, as you may have noticed, don't
        rely solely on surnames, they also have (had) titles. In a
        recent note it was pointed out that "Ada Lovelace", was actually
        "Ada Byron, Lady Lovelace". "Byron" was her family name,
        "Lovelace" a title, and if memory serves her name was "Augusta
        Ada". 
        
        Early on, the upperclasses didn't bother with hereditary
        surnames, but relied almost solely on titles. After all, the
        whole purpose of surnames was to differeniate people with the
        same name. Titles did that quite nicely as there was only one
        person entitled to a title at a time. Eventually, though, the
        upper classes started to use both surnames and titles, as titles
        often slipped from family to family. 
        
        Lady Lovelace's father, George Gordon Byron, Lord Byron, was
        both surnamed and titled "Byron". The reason being, I believe,
        that his family was originally from the middle class, and the
        title "Lord Byron" was taken from the family name.
        
        The origin of all of this "changing your last name" business
        comes from the handing down of titles. In an upper class
        marriage, the title of the more highly ranked partner was often
        shared with the lower ranked partner. Thus when Lady Lovelace's
        mother married Lord Byron, she became Lady Byron, not having
        been titled in her own right (although she stood to inherrit
        tiles from both parents, I believe). Had she been the countess
        Frithingham or some such, Lord Byron might very well have
        acquired a new title instead. 
        
        (As an interesting side-light, Byron did change his *name* due
        to an inherretence. His mother-in-law, Lady No�l, left him an
        income of �3000, conditional upon his changing his name from
        George Gordon to No�l. Thus he was later in life No�l Byron, or
        No�l, Lord Byron. So you see, people not only acquired titles
        and adopted surnames but actually changed their names in the
        original scheme.) 
        
        With the passing of titles, the title went from the higher
        ranking noble to the lower. (Actually they both acquired the
        other's title, but it is normal to use the highest rank to which
        you are entitled, so the person who visibly changed titles was
        the lower ranking one. Among the upper classes, surnames were
        handled much the same way. Thus an ancetsor of mine took his
        mother's surname (Tracy) because it was of a more prestigeous
        familt than his fathers (de Sudeley). Of course as he was one of
        the murderers of Thomas a Beckett the value of the name
        diminished quickly. 
        
        In the lower and middle classes it was often less clear cut who
        was the person of higher rank. Since inherretance was by male
        descent and women were undervalued, it became the custom
        (although not the iron-clad rule), for women to adopt the
        surname of their husband. 
        
        Please note, however that many common surnames are femine in
        gender. "Baxter" (once "bakster") is the feminine form of
        "baker", and "brewster" the feminine of "brewer" (and "spinster"
        the feminine of "spinner", but that's a whole nother story (note
        the parallel between "a whole nother" and "a neke name")).
        This certainly suggests that working-class surnames like titles
        can travel from women to men.
        
        The lesson of all of this is that we have forgotten the origins
        of our custsoms. We have come to view our surnames to be real
        names, endowing them with more importance than they used to have
        and at the same time we have adopted the custom that women
        always change them at marriage, when the original custom was
        much more fluid. Whereas our parents' generation may be
        surprised to hear that a woman isn't "changing her name", our
        ancestors would have been surprised that she thought it was her
        name in the first palce and that it was assumed that she would
        do the changing. 
        
        By making the practice more important and less flexible than it
        used to be, we have caused women to feel anger at being robbed
        of their names, and we have made were perfectly normal practices
        (using both surnames, using the wife's, adopting a new one) look
        both unusual and radical. We've also come to think of ourselves
        as having only one "family name", and belonging to only one
        family.
        
        In actuality we are each members of a number of families and
        lines. I for instance, being old-fashioned, think of myself and
        will speak of myself as "a Davison" or "a Davison on my mother's
        side", as well as "a Burrows". (Somehow I don't think of myself
        as "a Brown" (my wife's family), however.) The Davisons are an
        old and proud family, but have been "dying out" at least in our
        branch of the family, due to the lack of males to inherret the
        surname. As a result, my son, my brother and my cousin all have
        "Davison" for their middle names. If "Davison" is likely to be
        lost as a surname we'll keep it as a given name. 
        
        As I said, I'm very fond of names. In fact, I have a lot of
        them. I am known and addressed as "Brons" (it rhymes with
        "nonce", not "bronze") with no last name by many people, mostly
        socially, but several at work. I've adopted a handle on the CB,
        and a "nom de Notes". I have a couple of DBAs (doing business
        as), and have been known by the names of characters that I've
        played in role playing games and murder mystery week-ends. (It's
        almost as much of an honor to be an "Enfield" as a "Burrows" or
        a "Davison"). I think we all should have as many names as we
        choose, and use them as we choose.
        
        I think that in all practicality, a nuclear family should have a
        family name. Whether they take that name from the surname of one
        or the other of the families they grew up in or combine them or
        adopt a new one, should as it was in the past be up to them and
        the circumstances. I think that women desperately clinging to
        their surnames and others desperately trying to take them away
        from them are signs of insecurity and a misunderstanding of the
        nature and use of names. 
        
        JimB. 

    Jim's explanation of how names were derived is interesting and
    informative.  Years ago names were known to a limited amount of
    people and were recognized and associated with the actual person
    and their identity.
    
    My name evolved something like this...I was named Joyce Ann LaMotte.
    Joyce was the name my parents liked and wanted to use to identify
    me.  Ann was a biblical name and used to satisfy a requirement of
    my religion.  LaMotte is my surname and identified my paternal roots
    and placed me in a family.  When I was confirmed I was able to choose
    a biblical name that I liked and I chose Mary.  I married and I
    became Joyce Ann Poe.  I divorced and I returned to Joyce Ann LaMotte.
    
    There is a lot of individual symbolism in identification and I am
    not really comfortable with the means I have chosen to identify
    myself.
    
    When I married I can remember thinking I was leaving my parents
    and establishing a new identity.  I also looked forward to never
    having to spell my name again.  Neither situation occurred.  The
    identity I was looking for was not there and people kept asking
    me how to spell Poe.
    
    I think there can be a great deal of pride associated with a name.
    My name has caused me some difficulty because being a LaMotte as
    a youngster and a Poe as a young woman was not all that I would
    have liked.
    
    But I have since done some research on the name that I currently
    have and found some satisfaction with identifying with the early 
    French Canadian settlers.
    
    Would I change my name again?  I am not sure.  I think many of us
    think of the practicality and how it disrupts our status in so
    many computer files.  I think names have come over the years to
    identify who we are associated  with.  As a woman I am particularly
    sensitive to maintaining my identity.  But if I were to fall in
    love and marry I would also be very proud of that association and
    I would want to reflect that publicly and the one way of doing that
    would be to have some sort of name change.
    
    I am interested in how the Spanish people identify themselves. 
    Could anyone explain that process?
    
    
    

    It's not that women "feel anger at being robbed of their names",
    as Jim phrases it: this is only a symptom of discovering that one's 
    identity has been subsumed by that of one's husband.  It's not so simple
    as custom has frozen and folks are grouchy about it, for the subsuming
    of identity is wider-reaching than only names.  Credit-ratings,
    ownership of property, even professional reputations are involved.
    
    But the idea of thinking of last names as more like nick names could
    help lighten up one's mood.
    But credit bureaus have no sense of humor.

But women are *not* only asked just to change their surname, they're asked
to change their first name too!  I am *not* Mrs. Thomas Sullivan, and even
though I call myself Karen Sullivan, I am *not* Irish, and I'm not related
to any of those billions of Sullivans that live in this area.  If I hadn't
changed my name (which didn't seem important at the time), I wouldn't be
getting all of Kevin Sullivan's mail at home, and I wouldn't get mail at
work for a K. Sullivan who used to work in MR.  Before I changed my name, if
someone mentioned that they knew a Doster, it would probably be a relative.
I find it very hard to relate to people when they tell me they know a Sullivan.
So what?  They're no connection to me.

..Karen

By the way, Doster is my Birth Name.  I've never been a maid.

Although it would take some getting used to if my wife were to have kept 
her birth name, I find the custom of Mrs. <husband's-first-name> 
<husband's-last-name> to be AWFUL.

My first reaction to that [the first time I heard it as a child] was "who 
names their daughter 'Fred'?".

BTW - The abovementioned 'getting used to' would be the occasional "Oh, and 
you must be MR. Ravenstein" that I would get.  My wife said she wouldn't 
change her last name for marriage if it was one she didn't like.  As it 
turned out, "Long" is a much shorter signature than "Ravenstein" and she 
liked it, so.....

    re .24 > I've never been a maid.
    
    Maybe not, but I'll bet you were a maiden. :-)

    I'm really surprised that so many of us have told the same story
    here: took our first husband's name (it was VERY difficult not to
    when I was first married, since everything your name was on changed
    it FOR you whether you liked it or not, except your social security
    number), took back our birth names after that marriage failed, and
    kept them afterwards.  Must be a case of "live and learn"?
    
    The only question I can recall my (second) mother-in-law asking
    was "what name will your children use?" (I told her they would take
    her son's name, should we ever decide to have any kids.)
    
    Phone calls for "Mrs. Young" or "Mr. Richardson" or "the lady of
    the house" or "the homeowner" are almost always someone wanting
    to sell us something we don't want anyhow.  The only real problem
    with having more than one surname attached to the household is that
    most of the these "junk callers" will call again in two minutes,
    using one of the other names (sometimes even my ex's name), so I
    get to tell them "thanks for calling, but we are *not interested*"
    twice instead of once (I don't see being impolite to the poor folks
    who are trying to make a living this way - it's a job I personally
    would really hate, calling up random strangers on the phone and
    trying to sell them stuff).
    
    /Charlotte (Lee Richardson) (+Houde, for a while)

    Oops, I forgot one other problem we had once - one hotel we stayed
    in in Israel (our honeymoon, sort of - we went to a convention in
    Dayton, Ohio, for a "honeymoon" so that we could afford to go to
    Israel for our REAL honeymoon a year later) insisted on booking
    us into two rooms.  They wanted to see my wedding ring before booking
    us into one room (which I wasn't wearing - it was in the safe deposit
    box at home - I never, ever bring jewelry on vacation).  SOmeone
    who speaks better Hebrew than we do eventually straightened this
    one out - I don't know how, but she is another woman who kept her
    own birth name (our rabbi).

    I was named Mary Tracy Bryant, but was always called Tracy.  (My
    Catholic parents chose Mary because I was born on the Feast of the
    Immaculate Conception and they liked "Mary Tracy" better than "Tracy
    Mary.")  So I was always M. Tracy Bryant (though DEC can only cope
    with M. T. and other places are always changing it to Tracy M.)
    
    Anyway...when I was getting married I couldn't decide whether to
    be M. Tracy Bryant or M. Tracy Warren or Tracy Bryant Warren or
    M. Tracy Bryant-Warren and I drove everyone around me crazy.  I
    ended up changing my name to M. Tracy Warren.  Recently
    I ran into someone I worked with at that time.  When I told him
    that I now have a seven-month-old daughter, he wanted to know if
    she had a name yet.  Very funny.  (She does.)
    
    I can relate to .24's dilemma.  I am always being asked if I am
    related to so-and-so Warren.  I have no idea.  My would-be
    father-in-law passed away before I met Paul and I've never met anyone
    on his side of Paul's family.  I try to cut them off right away
    by telling  them I know of no Warrens I'm related to...but usually
    they insist on asking anyway.  Then again, I was never related to any 
    other Bryants either...
    
    -Tracy
          
    

    I have considered changing my last name back to Bryant.  This, I
    imagine, will be more difficult than leaving it the same when getting 
    married, changing it when getting married, or changing it when getting
    divorced.
    
    For example, I have heard of many instances where women who do not
    have the same names as their husband have had to "prove" that they are 
    in fact married to him (i.e., with a marriage certificate).  However,
    my marriage certificate says I will be using the name Warren.  Also,
    when I changed my checking account, driver's license, credit cards,
    etc., it was a pain but I had no hassles.  I was always asked "Why?"
    and I responded "Because I'm getting married."  They'd always nod
    and make the change with no further questions.  I imagine "I'm getting
    divorced" would evoke the same reaction.  However, if I change back
    to my maiden name without getting divorced (definitely not in the
    plans), will it be as easy to get things changed?
    
    Has anyone ever done this?  What problems have you run into?
     

   <--(.30) 

   You could always *say* you were getting divorced, Tracy.
   
   Or you could simply say that on reflection you decided to resume
   using your birthname.  If you don't get someone (a) rigid or (b)
   dim, I would think you'd have no problem, these days.
   
   						=maggie

    re .29:
    
    I was Kathleen Virginia Elizabeth.  For various reasons (especially
    that I don't like the nickname "Kathy", and there are so *many*
    of them), I started using "Betty" and "Beth" socially.  However,
    using it to whomever was writing my paycheck seemed to cause *lots*
    of confusion, so I gave up, causing even more confusion.  Finally,
    I decided to end the confusion once and for all by rearranging my
    names to Elizabeth Kathleen Virginia, and at the same time, changing
    my last name back to my father's, rather than my step-father's,
    who has sinced been divorced from my mother and disappeared.
    
    That's one way to end your problem with people mixing up your name
    permanently.
    
    Elizabeth (NOT Kathy)
    

    I didn't change my name, but I did change my signature on the last
    day of 1979 in all the official places (bank, DMV, etc).  Everyone
    was a bit annoyed, I guess because they had wanted to wish me luck
    with my marriage, which I explained _wasn't_ the reason I was 
    changing my signature (since I wasn't getting married).
    
    On a different note: this afternoon I did a harvest of the results
    of my usual bingo card sowing.  3 out of 4 included a hand-signed
    letter from an account manager of whichever small firm, and all
    3 letters were addressed to "Mr. L.S. Chabot".  Sillies!  There
    is no such person.  But, in technical junk mail, they *always* get
    it wrong.  (It's always wrong for junk catalogs at home, but that's
    because there's no "Mrs. Chabot" there.)
    
    I never check off a gender/marital-status title for junk mail or
    magazines.  I wonder why they
    bother to guess?  Is anyone there offended if it doesn't say "Mr."
    in your mail?  "Mrs."?  If I were to put "Ms." or "Lisa"
    on my tech-junk stuff, would they respect me less :-) ?  Am I doing
    women a disfavor by not publicly swelling the ranks? :-)

    My maiden name is Smith, something of which I am very proud of
    because it means I am a part of the Smith family.  I no longer 
    am addressed by the name Smith but it will be a part of me for the 
    rest of my life.
    
    My married name is Hilligrass, of which I am also very proud of 
    because it is a symbol of my marriage to Ed.  We have our own family 
    now and when we have children we will have no hassles deciding what 
    last names to use for the children.  I also don't understand why
    people become insulted when call "Mrs. ........".  Although I don't
    get called "Mrs. Edward Hilligrass" often I sure wouldn't have a
    problem with it when I did.  
    
    I am my own person not because of my name but because of who I am.
    
                                     Sue Hilligrass
    

    <== well, I know my father's family's heritage better than my mom's
    so I guess I'll stick with my father's last name, as I identify
    pretty strongly with it (try spelling a name like this over the
    phone a few guzillion times, and I think you'll start to either
    hate it desparately or love it like I do).
    
    My name is Elizabeth Michael Tatistcheff.  In Russian, it's Elizaveta
    Mikhailovna Tatistcheva.  My church name is Elizaveta Mikhailovna,
    and that's how my family knows me.  It means Elizabeth, daughter
    of Michael, descended from he who ferreted out the bandits (a Wladimir
    in the 16th century was known as Tatistch because of an act he
    performed, and dropped his defunct title as Tatistch was much more
    prestigious in his eyes).  My brothers are Nikolai Mikhailovitch
    and Timote Mikhailovitch (sons of Michail, descended...).
    
    Both my middle name and my last name are "man-marks", marks on me
    by my Dad (TRADITION: if only my vtnnn would make little music marks.
     That was from the fiddler on the roof...).
    
    I figure when (if) I get married, I will trade the easiest man-mark
    for another: the middle name/initial will be traded for my SO's
    name/initial.  Tatistcheff is too important a name for me to lose.
    
    Lee
    
    PS. Lee comes from Lizinka (little Liza, pronounced LEE-zen-keh
    by Russians, , Li-ZIN-ker by hicks) which is long for Liza, which
    is short for Elizabeth.  Want to know how my Grandmother (Groo)
    got her name (even more twisted than mine)?
    

    RE: .34 and others?

>					I also don't understand why
>    people become insulted when call "Mrs. ........".  
    ...    
>    I am my own person not because of my name but because of who I am.


    Well, I too feel I am my own person regardless of what my name is.  I
    think that's partly why I want to have my own name though.  I want
    others to recognize that I am my own person.  When I am called by my
    husband's name, I feel that I am only being recognized for being his
    wife.  And although I really love him a lot, marrying him is only
    significant to the two of us, and not to others.  Hey, it's pretty easy
    to marry someone, there shouldn't be any status involved with that.

    Well, I did take Tom's last name.  Tradition seemed important to him,
    as well as having one last name for our family.  Since it didn't really
    matter that much to me, I decided to change my last name.  I never
    agreed to change more than my last name, and I do get upset by people
    who address me by a name that's not mine.  I've decided that that's the
    label I want attached to my idea of what I am, just as I spent time
    creating my signature that identifies me.  Sure, a law could be passed
    that forced everyone to change their names, and deep down inside I'd
    still call myself 
	"Karen Louise Sullivan born Doster and a Beman from my Mother".

    But since that's pretty long, you can call me Karen or Karen Sullivan.

    ...Karen

    re .24 and .47, Karen Sullivan:
    
    Well, well, well, we went to college together (RIT), but I would
    have never known that because you *changed your name*!  It's only
    since you have now told us that you once were named 'Doster' that
    I know this.  (I was one year behind you, transferred in from the
    local community college as a junior, remember my name?)
    
    We have at least one mutual friend from college and he has been
    wondering about you.  We both knew you came to Digital in 1980,
    but telephone books and ELF don't have you listed under the name
    by which we knew you.  Unfortunately, I'm not sure where he is
    anymore (he went by the nickname of "Toad" ... remember my old
    boyfriend Ludy too?).
    
    I will *not* change my name when I marry because I do not want to
    lose the friends who have come to know me by my name.  Friends are
    too important to lose over this (in my opinion) silly custom!
    
    BTW, hyphenated names would have helped in this case.
    
    Then again, if you're trying shake some old people in your life,
    changing your name is a win.
    
    Maybe I should have mailed this to you, but I wanted to illustrate
    one drawback of changine one's name that has not yet been mentioned.
    
    	-Ellen

    Ummm, Ellen could Toad be Todd S. If so facto he is here
    in Colorado.  Just thought I would help.
    
    vivian

    I kept my married name for a few years after the divorce because I was
    teaching at the time and didn't want to have a different name all of a
    sudden.  (I was very involved in a lot of feminist groups at the time
    and got a lot of grief from them for keeping it!)  I told people that I
    would change my name back to Hendricks when I made my next big life or
    career change.   
    
    That's exactly what I did, and it was easy.  I have never gone to court
    to have Cormier legally changed back to Hendricks...I just changed all
    my credit cards and magazines.   I did it when I moved and changed
    careers.  My birth certificate says Holly Hendricks, so that takes care
    of most problems. 
    
    What really amazed me was that the registry of motor vehicles gave
    me no hassle.  I went in there and said that I was using my birth
    name, told them what it was, and they typed up the license without
    asking for an ID.
    
    Holly

	re: .30 et al about changing names

	I believe the "rule" is that you can *use* any name you like if
	the intent is not fraud, however your *legal* name is unchanged
	unless it is changed on some legal document (such as a marriage
	certificate, naturalization papers, divorce decree, etc.).  I don't
	know if a driver's license would count as such.

	I just went through this, too, when I got divorced and resumed my 
	maiden name; I had to "petition the court" (well, actually, my 
	lawyer did! :-) to change the name legally.

	I'd suggest seeing a lawyer about getting it changed legally, since
	that'd save hassles (and confusion) later on.  It'll also give you a 
	piece of paper to wave if you're ever asked to "prove" the name change 
	(um, rechange?)  And yes, I have been asked to provide proof of the
	name change to get some of the other stuff changed - mostly other 
	documents such as auto registration.

		Helen

    This may be a state-wide thing, but I think (at least in MA) that
    using the name of choice, having all your credit cards, etc. put
    in that name, consistently USING it, and not showing any intention
    of fraud - constitute the LEGALITY of that name.
    
    Great way for lawyers to make money, tho :-}
    
    Dawn
    

    I read in Dear Abby the other day that the "correct" way of addressing
    the current wife of Joe Blow is "Mrs. Joe Blow", while addressing
    the ex-wife is "Mrs. Jane Blow".  This was brought up because a
    woman was incensed that there would be two "Mrs. Joe Blows" when
    her ex-husband remarried.  She didn't want to give up the 'title'.
    (gag)
    
    So some of the people that address us this way think they are being
    proper.  Luckily Miss Manners takes the more modern viewpoint that
    the proper way of addressing someone is however that someone wishes
    to be addressed.

    			Ms. Barbara b.

    Although it is true that in some states you can use a name consistently
    and it will become your legal name, this is not true in all states.
    In Colorado, for instance, you must petition the court, and show
    legal papers (usually) for changes such as driver's licenses.  In
    addition, you must state that you are changing your name in a local
    paper for several days so that anyone who objects (perhaps a person
    to whom you owe money) may request the court not to let you change it.

                Carol

re Note 407.43 by PASCAL::BAZEMORE "Barbara b." 


   in full:

   Single:	Miss Jane Smith
   
   Married:	Mrs. Joe Jones
   
   Divorced:	Mrs. Jane Jones
   
   Widowed:	Mrs. Joe Jones
   
   /. Ian .\

    I'm confused (it's all your fault, Carol!).
    
    If one must go thru legal rigamarole to change
    one's name, does that mean that when one marries,
    one must see an attorny in order to assume one's
    spouses name?  What one chooses not to change one's
    name?  Then is that person free and clear, since 
    the drivers license won't need to be changed (well,
    maybe the address)...does a woman's name change
    automatically when she marries?  And then does she
    have to seek an attorney to get her name back?  This
    hardly seems fair, for the state to take it away from
    her in the first place....
    
    

    re .46
    A woman's name does not change automatically when she is married.
    However, the marriage and the accompanying certificate are acceptable
    and adequate legal "stuff" to change your name (you must produce
    the certificate when changing your name with social security, for
    example).  I believe in all other cases, you need "legal rigamarole"
    to change your name.  So no, the state does not "take a woman's
    name away" automatically when she is married!
    
    Lynne

�                            -< it's not automatic >-

  It is where I come from!

  Just  for  the  record  let  us  repeat,  once and for all, that every 
  country, and every state  in  America,  has  different  laws  on  this 
  subject.    (eg  having  just  married  in  New Hampshire, and with my 
  marriage certificate in front of me I can confirm that nowhere  on  it 
  does  it  say what my wife's name is after marriage.  A lawyer told me 
  that she must take affirmative action if she does not wish to take  my 
  name, and that for other reasons this is inadvisable.)
                                                      
  /. Ian .\

    When I took back my maiden name (7 years ago), I was told by my
    attorney that in Massachusetts ANY NAME could be used by anyone,
    as long as it was not for fraudulent purposes.  And I was told that
    all I had to do was start using it.  I changed my bank accounts,
    credit accounts, drivers license, etc. simply by doing it.  No one
    questioned me.  In 8 years, it's never been a problem.
    
    Sheila
    

    I thought that in the "proper old days" when a woman was divorced,
    she became Mrs. Maidenname Marriedname, e.g.,
    	
    	Jane Jones  marries  John Smith 
    		and became Jane Smith or Mrs. John Smith;
    
    	upon divorce, she was "properly" known as
    		Jane Smith or Mrs. Jones Smith.
    
    I learned this when browsing through the "Society" pages
    years ago, and muttered something about what a strange first
    name this person had.
    
    I can't imagine having done the proper thing when I got divorced
    and becoming known as Mrs. Greene Mumble!!!
    
    BTW, one of my daughters is in the midst of considering a NEW last
    name:  she doesn't much care for either my last name or her father's.
    We spent several long discussions recently thinking what kind of
    name she would like.  That seems to be "something different, but
    not too weird."  ;-)
    
    	Penelope

    re .48
    You're right in that all states have different laws.  I can only
    speak from experience for CT and MA.  However, when I got married
    10 months ago, the U.S. Dept. of Social Services (I think that's what
    they're called, but you know - the folks
    who keep track of your social security number that's used by so
    many people, most importantly the IRS) told me that *I* had to take
    specific steps to have my name changed with the *federal* government.
    Those steps included signing a form and sending in legal documents
    (in this case, a marriage certificate).  This results in your social
    security records being changed to reflect the new name.  So, if your
    wife plans on changing her name (Philpot's a great last name, even if you do
    spell it with one too many T's!    :-)    ) she should probably
    give them a call just to be on the safe side. 
    
    Lynne
     

    > A lawyer told me that she must take affirmative action if she 
    > does not wish to take  my name, and that for other reasons this 
    > is inadvisable.                               (from 407.48)
      
    Um, Ian, does "other" mean the lawyer didn't or wouldn't tell you, or
    does "other" mean that there are reasons but don't wish to mention
    them here (for reasons of privacy or brevity or whatever).           
    No, that's not what I mean, what I mean is: can you provide any
    enlightenment about why it might be inadvisable?  I'm curious. 
    But I don't want to pry.

    Deb and others:
    
    In California, you can just use a name consistantly (as long as
    it is not for fraudulent purposes) and it becomes your legal name.
    You of course will need to change driver's license, checks, etc.
    
    In Colorado, if you are a female getting married to a man, then
    you can easily produce your marriage certificate and change your
    credit cards, driver's license, etc, and your husband's last name
    will be yours if you wish.  If you wish to retain your own name,
    then just don't change it.  However, if you are not going into a
    State of Colorado-approved marriage (heterosexual, with all the
    proper papers, etc) or some equivalent life change (with divorce
    you have the option of including the name change at the time)
    then you have to file with the courts to GET PERMISSION for the name 
    change.  This is what Shellie did to change her name to Johns.  
    In addition, although she presented the court order (permission) 
    for the name change, she got a lot of hassle from some of the
    companies with whom we have credit cards.  They did not understand
    and required additional information before they would send a card
    to her in her new name.  Of course we told them that they would
    send the card or they would lose our business, and we got the card.
    :-)
                       Carol        

    RE: .52
    
    > Other Reasons
    
    There is Immigration and Naturalization Services under Dept of Justice.
    If you thought IRS is bad, I hope you never have to deal with INS in
    your life. 
    
    Ian has already mentioned the reason in 407.16.  Essentially it is
    advisable for the wife of an immigrant to take on her husband's name. 
    
    Well at least Ian and Ann can be together after their marriage unlike
    some other immigrants who are forced to wait for years before the wife
    can join her husband. 
    
    - Vikas "who has just finished 4 months wait of that 18 months"

    Thanks, Carol!!!  ( I was feeling rather aggressive
    about this whole thing-make me change my name, will
    you? huh, we'll just see about THAT!!)
    
    So, basically the law here is the same as California,
    for those opting not to change their name.
    
    What a relief!
    
                          Deb
    
    

    About a year ago I changed my name.  About 3 years previously, I
    was told by a lawyer that I could use any name I wanted to, as long
    as my intent was not to defraud anyone.  However, it takes more
    than that to change your drivers' license, bank records, school
    transcripts, and so forth.  So, I was using one name socially, and
    one for business and legal purposes, confusing anyone who knew
    me in both ways, especially me.  So, I went to court and asked them
    to change my name to what I wanted it to be.  They wanted a reason
    why I wanted to change it, as well as a financial statement - to
    prove to them that my intent was not to get out of debts.  In my
    case, no problem, it was changed, making life easier for everyone,
    except in the short term.  BTW, I live in Colorado.
    
    Elizabeth

        By the way, the system is very resistant to all sorts of changes
        that is significantly unusual. A friend of mine got no end of
        grief when he changed his name. The problem was that his new
        name is "Freff", not "Freff Something" or "Something Freff".
        
        The system, which will saddle you with "N.M.I." if you are so
        short-sighted to have no middle name and thus nothing to put in
        the "Middle Initial" box, can not cope with a single word that
        is both your first name and your last name. It took him YEARS to
        get a driver's license. They only crumbled when he emptied his
        wallet on them showing that everything--charge cards, social
        security card, professional society memberships--had just Freff
        as his name. Having merely legally changed his name to Freff
        didn't work, if I remember. They chose not to recognize it.
        
        Of all of the mononomous folk running around SF fandom and
        prodom, Freff is the only one I know of who managed to actually
        adopt it as his legal name.  
        
        JimB. 

    I did a SEARCH of this topic for "Switzerland" and turned up empty
    so I guess no one has mentioned that in Switzerland, there is a
    "book of names" from which the new parents must choose a name for
    their newborn. That if you don't like any of the names in there,
    then the state will choose one for you. This is true even for
    non-citizens who happen to give birth there. 
    
    I have a friend who's brother was born there and the parents wanted to
    name him Orin, not a common name but not unique either, unfortunately
    it is not in "the book" and they had to fight long and hard to get
    it put onto the birth certificate. They had to prove that Orin is
    a "real name" and not something they just made up.
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    <--(.58)
    
    For real!??  Now *that's* baroque!
    
    Zoziau?  Helen?  Can you guys shed any light on the reasoning behind
    such a peculiar rule?
    
    						=maggie

    
    Then there's the kid that was born a few years ago with a name that
    was *seventeen* pages long.
    
    What a concept!
    
    CC
    

    Re mononomous names: I have a friend here in NH who has legally adopted
    a single name ("Treelady" - not even "Ms. Treelady" please!).
    
    Names in Britain: I may have mentioned this before but: In English law
    I can change my surname via various legal methods, *but* I cannot change
    my forenames. [This is a consequence of the fact that I was baptised
    in those names, and the Church of England is a State protected religion]
    
    Also: my two names are handed down the first born male line of our family
    [I am Ian Frederic, my father is Frederick John, etc - only the form
    is changed slightly from generation to generation to avoid somebody
    being Frederick John Philpott XXXVIII :-)] However my parents wanted
    to christen me Eaon Frederick [a celtic spelling and the same spelling
    as my father] the CofE priest flatly refused: he called the celtic spellic
    "pagan" and the spelling of Frederick "German" (this was just after
    the second world war remember and feelings were still running a little
    high in some places - and my father was still on active service duty
    in the British Army), so I got an English spelling of "Ian" and a French
    spelling of Frederic.
    
    So it isn't just the Swiss who can be picky about names...
    
    /. Ian .\

    Re: .58,.59  
    
    Excuse-moi, but I haven't heard of that one.  Of course, I don't
    know everything and wouldn't put it past the Swiss ... 

    I do know that a woman (Swiss or not) divorced from a Swiss man 
    has to ask his permission if she wishes to continue using his name.
                                                          
    FWIW, in addition to being stuck with the same surname all his life, 
    a Swiss can't change his/her given name either.  There is, however, 
    a complicated system of nicknames to which no one objects.   
    My "official" nickname in Swiss German (and the one by which I was
    called for years) is Leni.  I once had a beau by the name of Adrian 
    who was called Janu (pronounced Ya-nu) because he was born in January. 
 

        <perhaps its just another phase>
    
    	.... interesting topic and of course relevant to my current
    	situation! Getting married 8/20; our relationship is 15 yrs
    	old.... Having known Ken for all these years, I knew he was
    	not a modern man, but he makes an effort to learn and understand
    	the concepts! He is VERY upset that I won't take his last name!
    	With the help of the 220 odd responses on this topic, I now
        more clearly understand that he wishes it, inorder to satisfy the
    	EXTERNAL social elements of marriage. He is concerned with what
    	his parents will think, what his friends will think, what will
    	people call me, etc, etc...  
    
    	Keeping my name is more than a symbol to me, but yet it is 
    	difficult to explain, 'cause it does symbolize that this marriage
    	is a partnership,  not a subordination of one to the other,
        but this is still my life and his life, as well as it is OUR life. 
    
    	The traditional man headset is a tough one to crack!  The best
    	way to get through to a traditional man is to respond in terms
    	that they understand.... so I told him, I would gladly be Mrs
    	Kenneth MacLean, if he would gladly take responsibility for
    	me.... my 19 yr old son, 4 cats, credit cards, cars, 5 buildings,
    	5 mortgages, all the maintenance, my IRA, my stocks/bonds, R.E.
    	consultant company, writing letters to my mom, etc, etc... I
    	would gladly pursue my new duties as Mrs Kenneth MacLean....
    
        The logic seems to carry forward that I am the STUFF that I
    	have accumulated.... If "I AM" what "I AM" than what the "I
    	AM" is called really shouldn't matter.... as long as the "I
    	AM"  IS  !!      which blows any reason why I want to keep
    	my own name in marriage!!!!
    
    	comments, please.           ft
    	
    	
    	

    I changed my name when I married.  It mattered A LOT to my
    future husband and I figured that compromise was necessary
    in marriage, and that I would still be the same person that 
    I had always been , but with a different name.
    
    The one thing that I didn't take into consideration was how
    much a name is a part of who you are.  Changing from an 
    Italian name to a Jewish one meant that people automatically
    treated me differently and had different stereotyped opinions
    about who I was and the life I had lived.  I was amazed!
    

    Looking back on the name change, 10 years later, I am still
    happy that I did it.
      

    I have a friend whose spiritual teacher gave her a name she liked
    very much.  At first her friends used it and she kept her birth
    name as her legal name.
    
    When she decided to take the new name as her legal name, she also went
    through a great deal of grief trying to be acknowledged as a person
    with one name. 
    
    She had the name change papers from the courts, but the credit card
    companies couldn't handle it at all.  She insists on using her full
    name, "Mirabai", but all her mail comes addressed to Mrs. Mira Bai.
    And all the junk mail comes to Mr. Bai!  She even tried to have them
    send things to Mirabai Mirabai, but they refused.
    
    We can't resist teasing her about all the notorius members of the
    "Bai" family  :-)
    
    Holly 
    

    In 1963, when my daughter was born, for some strange reason we forgot
    to send  the name card in to city hall.  When it was time for her
    to start school I went to get her white card, city hall had her
    registerd as baby girl Jeffries.  You should try naming a 4 1/2
    year old kid.  They wanted proof that her name was Michelle. I
    explained that I was her mother and that is what I had named her.
    They wanted something printed with her name on it. In frustration
    I asked them to give me a example of what kind of document others
    used is like situations, this was also before SS #'s were given
    to children. The clerk finally said she would have to call a supervisor
    since she didn't know what to do.
    
    She called up whomever she had to talk to and would talk on the
    phone and the to me back and forth, she: "does sh have a drivers
    license?" me:"no they won't issue her one until she is 16." she:
    (back to the phone) "does she have any pay stubs?" me:(with sarcasim)
    "they wont let her work until she is 16." This kind of conversation
    went on for over an hour with me interjecting frequently "she is
    only 4 1/2 years old." After a totle of about 2 1/2 hours I finally
    was escorted before some legal type person who spent another 30
    min insuring that I didn't have some legal document with her name
    imprinted on it. After a wasted morning at city hall my daughter
    finally has a birth certificate with her given name on it.

    I'm getting married October 10th and this decision has been on my
    mind a lot lately.  I've decided that I don't want to give up my
    name.  My last name is Fink and although it's been the source of
    a lot of ridicule, I love it!  People remember me, it's a good
    conversation piece, too.  But more importantly, it is not only a
    part of ME, but of my family.  I have the uptmost respect and love
    for my family and I don't want my family name to get lost in the
    shuffle.  
    
    When explaining this to my husband-to-be, I said that this decision
    meant nothing negative toward his family or his name.  They are
    nice people and we get along fine, but I was born AND RAISED a 
    Fink.  
    
    But, I DO love Eddie and I do want people to know I married him.
    We're a great team now, and I hope we will stay that way, so I've
    decided to show that in my last name--which will be Fink-Mazur.
    It may not be the prettiest or easiest name to write, but it suits
    me just fine!
    
    
    
    

    re .67  I think it has a nice ring to it.  Is it (may-zurr) or
    (ma-zurr) or neither?
    
    Cathy

    
    Re .67 -
    
    Gee, the name Fink has always reminded me of my favorite grammar
    school teacher.  Never fails to bring back warm, fuzzy memories
    of the fourth grade and Mrs. Fink's classroom...
    
    Good teacher.
    Good name.

re: .67
>    We're a great team now, and I hope we will stay that way, so I've
>    decided to show that in my last name--which will be Fink-Mazur.
>    It may not be the prettiest or easiest name to write, but it suits
>    me just fine!

    Not to be critical, but is he hyphenating his last name, too? 

�    < Note 407.67 by SAVAGE::FINK >
�                      -< WHY DO YOU WANT TO KEEP "FINK"? >-

    
	Nice to hear you're keeping your last name.  I'm rather
    	 fondly attached to it myself.... :-)
    
    	I know what you mean about the ridiculing though.  When I
    	 was younger, it really used to bother me.  Now when people
    	 ask for my last name, I always say F*I*N*K, as in Rat Fink.
    	 That usually gets a chuckle, and I'd rather say it myself than
    	 let someone else think they're getting the better of me.  The
    	 worst part though is that my initials are R. T. A. Fink.
    
    				-Rich
    

I read WOMANNOTES quite a bit, but (almost) never write (too many men in 
here already).  But I had a lot of thoughts about this most recent go-around 
on names.  Here are some of them (and I'll keep my mouth (fingers?) shut for 
another year)...


Re .67, .70

  I, too, am very interested to hear what .67's husband is planning to
  do about his name.


Re statements such as 'changing my name doesn't mean I'm not my own person'

  Maybe not, if it's an isolated incident.  But changing your name because
  it is the "expected" thing to do, or because your husband's name is more
  important somehow, does not sound like an action taken by a fiercely
  independent person.


Re "compromises" such as maiden-middle names, or hyphenation

  My mother did that in 1943 (maiden-middle name).  I suppose I thought 
  that it was kind of a standard thing to do, and don't consider it much of 
  a compromise.  What did the husbands do as part of these compromises?  As 
  for hyphenation, it's only a compromise if you *both* change (hence my 
  interest in .67)


If anyone out there about to get married is considering keeping their
name (or if anyone changed it and regrets it) and you're looking for
support, here it is.  Do it.  Keep (or go back to) the name you were
born with.  If "he" doesn't like it, he'll get over it.  Remember that
*your* feelings are equally important.

.jim

    re .72:
    >Re statements such as 'changing my name doesn't mean I'm not my
    >own person'
    
    >Maybe not, if it's an isolated incident.  But changing your name
    >because it is the "expected" thing to do, or because your husband's
    >name is more important somehow, does not sound like an action taken
    >by a fiercely independent person.
    
    On the other hand, feeling like you need to keep your name to keep
    your identity, or to "know who you are", doesn't sound to me like
    an action taken by a person who really *knows* who they are in the
    first place.  This isn't meant to insult anybody's choice of keeping
    their maiden name, or hyphenating it, or anything.  It's just that:
    
    1) Those of us who have chosen to take our husband's names seem
    to take a little too much criticism for "giving in", and it's kind
    of a sore spot with me.
    
    2) I haven't found the name change to be that big a deal.  People
    who know me personally adapted easily enough.  And people who know
    me or know of me professionally may have taken one or two tries
    in associating the new name with the old person, but they got used
    to it.  And word gets around.  I'm still me, my accomplishments
    are still my accomplishments, it's just my last name is different.
    
    My husband's name isn't "more important" than mine - how silly!
     As a matter of fact, I am older than he is, am better educated,
    and make more $$$.  So does that mean I took a step down by taking
    his name?  (Great deal of sarcasm here).
    
    Lynne
    
    

    
    When I got married, my husband and I decided to have TWO last names.
    
    Thomas Francis Vasak -> Thomas Francis Tillson Vasak
    Rita Marie Tillson -> Rita Marie Tillson Vasak
    
    Why did we decide to put his name last?  Simple.  We both hope to
    be published science fiction authors, and we wanted our books to
    be filed between "Varley" and "Vonnegutt".
    
    Profesionally, he uses just "Vasak" and I use just "Tillson".  Why
    blow up all the software and change all our account names, anyway?
    
    Rita
    

    
    I know that it's easier to go along with tradition, and if you have
    to choose between keeping your father's name and taking you husband's
    name, why not choose the name of the man you chose?  But when you
    take a few steps back from it, doesn't it seem rather odd that when
    a man and woman get married, the woman almost always takes his name?
    I mean if women are really valued members of society and equal
    partners, and if this name thing is really about "sharing", "becoming
    as one" and all that, am I the only one who often wonders why men
    almost never take the woman's name?
           
    Puzzled,
    
    Justine

    re last few and several notes elsewhere in this conference.
    
    
    early in the life of this notes file, I got severely flamed for
    saying this, but I'm going to try again:
    
    	Whatever works for YOU is great, but let's remember that
        each person has come to a decision (about names) that is 
    	valid for her or him. We can't expect to build a community 
    	if we say both "Feminism is about choice" and "I can't 
    	believe any right-thinking person would make that choice
    	because ...".
    
    
    liz augustine (who "kept her own name" but respects other people's
    choices) 

    
    I agree that we need to respect each person's choice.  And I think
    it might be neat to share the last name of my SO.  My question
    has to do with why when a man and woman get married (in this country
    anyway), the man and the woman and any offspring tend to use the man's 
    name?  I've never met a man who took his wife's name.. I've known
    a few who have hyphenated, though.
    
    Some other questions that I have:
    
    For those of you who did take your husband's name, how does it feel?
    Does it/did it take a while to get used to it?  Do you *feel* like
    you have a different identity?  I've always been curious about this.
    Also, to those of you who are divorced and took back your birth
    name, did you experience any feeling of a change (loss OR gain)
    in your identity?   
    
    I'm curious about this because I think that even when I was a little
    girl, I never imagined that I would change my last name.  I don't
    mean that I refused to, but I never thought about it.  Now I sometimes
    wonder how it would feel.
    
    Justine                           

    re .77  - How did it "feel" to change my name?  It felt - nice.
    Nice to have the same last name as my new husband, nice because
    it gave me a legal, very visible feeling of "oneness" beyond the
    emotional bond we already shared.  I thought it was kind of fun!
    
    No, it didn't feel like I took on a different identity.  I think
    that's why I have a hard time understanding why some people get
    all fired up about it.  You're changing your LAST NAME, for pete's
    sake, but you're still YOU.  (Of course, that's my experience. 
    If you let your identity be swallowed up by your marriage, that's
    a whole different topic...)  Maybe it was so non-traumatic because
    I knew I didn't HAVE to change my name, I WANTED to.   Maybe it
    was more of big deal in the days when it was rare for a woman
    not to change her name and it wasn't so much a matter of choice?
    But nowadays, it is a choice, I chose it, and am very happy I did!
    :-)
    
    Lynne
     

    Justine, it didn't feel to me, either, like a changed identity.
    I just changed by surname, not my NAME.  The part of my name that
    I feel identifies me is my first name; the other part is just for
    legal/convenience purposes.  
    
    Gloria

    I also feel that I didn't change myself or my identity by 
    taking Don's last name.....I just chose to identify us by 
    the same name....I felt a lot stronger about losing my
    middle name and about 10 years ago went from Bonnie Power
    Reinke to Bonnie Jeanne Reinke....but I am proud of all
    my names and would be glad to be called by all four...
    
    but I still have a relationship with my parents and sisters
    that is unchanged no matter what last name I carry...
    
    Bonnie

    re: what it feels like...
    
    I changed my name when I married, because I loved my husbands'name!
    "Bize" sounds (but doesn't spell) like a high cold wind that blows
    mostly in winter and freezes you to the marrow, usually bringing
    clear blue sky. On the other hand, I have always disliked my own
    maiden "Suter", which evokes the underground...
    
    As I am very sensitive to the sounds of language, I guess I wouldn't
    have changed had it been the reverse, and would always have kept
    the name I preferred!
    
    re: going back ...
    
    My mother was divorced and returned to her maiden name, after
    discussing the question with my brother, who is still living at
    home, and may have wanted her to keep the same name as his, for
    "social" reasons. Again, the choice was mostly an aesthetic one,
    as she loved her maiden name ("Marigo" sounds, but doesn't spell,
    like a brook).
    
    re: hyphenation ...
    
    This is a QUESTION: how do the children of parents with hyphenated
    names handle the name question, i.e:
    
    	when Laure Bize-Suter meets Francois Marigo-Johnson and wants
    	to marry him, do they beget baby Bize-Suter-Marigo-Johnson?
    
    Or do your children carry only one name, and in this case, which
    name? If they carry only one name, then it's a bit unfair, but if
    they wear two, they could get into complicated situations (as above)
    or get dreadfully bored with writing their names, especially in
    the first years when writing is an effort (Marie Claire
    Zoetemelk-Landecix)!
    
    It may sound like a joke, but I am really interested in knowing
    how some of you may have handled the situation, or would handle
    it.
    
    Joana
    

RE: How it felt to change my name

	Well, I didn't realize the hassles it would involve.  Being lazy
	about certain things, I didn't realize how many people I had to
	inform of this new name.  Years later, I couldn't get cash out
	of a little used savings account until I could prove (once again)
	that my name had changed.  It took 3 or 4 tries before the bank
	got the "right" name on my safety deposit box.  I have never gotten
	used to someone calling me "Mrs. Sullivan", and I still go to the
	"D" line when you have to pick a line based on your last name at
	conventions etc.  I am used to being called Karen Sullivan, but
	will still answer to my birth name too with out even thinking it's
	strange that someone called me that.  Oh, and the last time we
	signed mortgage papers, I had an "official alias", so I had to sign
	my name twice :-).  When I first got married, I was undecisive as
	to which "middle" name to use, so I have both depending on what
	document you look at.

	No, I never felt like changing my name changed me.  I would also
	still feel as one with my spouse even if I hadn't changed my name.
	I did feel as one with him before we were married.  I doubt that I
	would change my name if I had it to do over again.  It's really
	easier not to.  (And I would now encourage my spouse to change his,
	just to score a point for feminists :-)  .)
	
	I've never been divorced, but I doubt that it would phase me
	to change my name back except for the hassles involved.  I guess
	it would depend on how bitter a divorce it would be.

	...Karen

    I also changed my surname to my husband's upon marrying.  It _did_
    feel like a change of identity to me, but it also felt good.  It
    symbolised, for me, the lifetime commitment I was making, that I
    was officially stating that I wanted to be a partner to this man
    til the end of my days.  And as such, it was not an insignificant
    symbol.
    
    What I dream of seeing happen (in some future time) is that when
    a man and woman marry, they _exchange_ surnames.  I was christened
    Marcia Callender.  My husband was christened Dave Butchart.  Upon
    marrying, under my imagined scheme, we'd become Marcia Butchart
    and Dave Callender.  While I liked changing my own name because
    of the commitment symbology, it has rankled me for some time that
    society seems to have no similar symbol for men.  The exchange of
    surnames symbolizes, to me, that in a partnership one _does_ build
    a different identity, and that this identity is indelibly linked
    with the one you have chosen to set it up with, and that this
    partnership is between equals.  Each of you would have "given"
    something to the other to symbolize all this.  The exchange might
    also be nice for parents; parents gaining a son-in-law might indeed
    feel more like this had happened.  I know that my mom loves Dave,
    and probably would have been really happy to have more formal
    recognition that she had acquired a "second son".
    
    And children's names?  Under my scheme, they'd be given the mother's
    married surname.  Thus, any children that Dave and I might have
    under this sytem would be surnamed Butchart.  This symbol recognizes
    a bit of biological truth--that no man's genes get passed on without
    a woman's cooperation.  The children would inherit their father's
    born surname--but _through_me_.
    
    BTW, I knew of a couple that did this.  I thought it was a lovely
    idea.  The man's parents were upset until they learned that any
    children would bear their surname--the name their daughter-in-law
    had taken.  Will I push it with Dave?  Probably not, because of
    habit more than anything else--we're both used to being Butcharts
    after 13 years together.  Or maybe I'll ask him about it for a special
    way to mark our 15th or 20th anniversary.  :-)
    
    Marcia
    
    PS. I also agree with what others have been saying, that my REAL
    name feels like Marcia, not linked at all to what's tacked on to
    Marcia.  If society had been in the habit of forcing me to give up
    my very personally felt appelation for my Self, that embodies for
    me all that I really am, _then_ I'd have felt that my identity was
    being stripped away, my self-hood violated.

    I was at my cousin's wedding shower last month where I ran into one
    of her friends (and an acquaintance of mine) whom I hadn't seen in
    a while.  The exchange went like this:
    
    As I recognized her, I turned to her and said:  "Oh, it's Kathy
    Dxxxxx, Hi, how's your sister doing?"
    
    Kathy: "It's Kathy Hxxx."
    
    me:	   "Oh."

    A chilled pause before we continued the conversation.  Now *if*
    I were to change my name at marriage, I would certainly *answer*
    to Ellen Gugel for all of my life, no matter what my legal name
    was.  It seemed real insecure to me for Kathy to have to jump in
    and correct me about her new name as an answer to "how's your sister?"
    *Real* insecure (that's how it seemed to me).  She could have mentioned
    that she had gotten married after we had gotten into the conversation,
    which would have been far more interesting to me than the fact that
    she now goes by Hxxx rather than Dxxxxx.
    
    	-Ellen
    
    P.S.  Marcia, no matter what your husband changes his name to, he'll
    always be 'Butch' to us here in Secure Systems.

    Re: .84
    
    Just call me "Ms. Butch".  ;-)
    
    Marcia

    re: 407.71
    
    Rich just happens to be my SO, and when we get married, I'm
    going change my last name to Fink, because I want to be able to
    say "Fink, as in RAT Fink"! (-:
    
    I must have a strange sense of humor, or maybe I'm just strange,
    but I think it will be fun to be a Fink! (-:
    
    But seriously...
    
    I'm divorced, and my maiden name was Wiener - I didn't change back
    to it when I got divorced, because Fletcher is much easier to spell,
    and pronounce,and it meant less paperwork.  (My first name is Corinne,
    and it's no fun having to pronounce and spell both).
    
    I'm changing my name when we get married, because I like Fink, and
    I think it would kind of hurt Rich's feeling if I kept Fletcher.
    
    Bottom line is that I really don't care what my last name is, as
    long as I like it!
    
    P.S. My brother changed his last name to Nelson - my parents could
    care less about last name business - just as long as we are happy!
                                                                        
    P.P.S  We're gonna get married in a year - year and a half.  We're
    in no hurry.
    
    Bye!
    
    Corinne
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    I got a phone call from a friend that I hadn't talked with for awhile.
    Some of her big news was that she's planning to get married in June. I
    asked her if she's going to change her name, and she said that she's
    not sure yet.

    She said that she liked his name better, and that it was easier to
    spell (personally, I like her current name better). I've heard that
    from a number of women, but I think that it's an easy excuse to be
    traditional. If it were simply a matter of picking a better name, why
    do we never hear of a man changing his name, or the couple picking a
    new name altogether (although wasn't that what Jim Dyer was going to
    do?). Women use their birth names as their middle names, but men never
    do; women use hyphenated names, but men infrequently do.

    If it were really an objective decision I think that there'd be changes
    or compromises on both sides. It's hard to go against tradition, but
    the fact that the new name seems better seems to tip the balance too
    frequently. I agree that it would be nice to share a name (although it
    doesn't seem necessary), but it seems that it's almost always women
    that make the compromise.

    There are so many women that think about not changing their names, but
    do it anyway. This decision is like a candidate always coming in second
    place -- she looks good, but is never actually selected.
    
    Of course, I'm not trying to say that anyone is wrong for the decision
    that she makes, but I suspect the reason.

    I've been thinking about why I so fiercely held on to my name when
    I got married. I just remembered that it's the SECOND time I've
    kept my name. When I was 7, my mom remarried and gave me the choice
    to keep my own name or take my step-father's (I was making the choice 
    for my younger sister, too). I chose to stay an Augustine -- in one
    sense, it was a sweet present for my dear father. It was interesting, 
    too, because I got no pressure from either parent -- the decision was
    totally up to me. Mom's second husband started out to be pleasant
    enough, but over the years, he tried harder and harder to tease,
    harrass, ridicule, punish and beat my personality out of me. He tried
    to make me into a "proper little girl and daughter". He may have
    thought he was winning a few times, and he certainly did lasting 
    damage, but I'm still me. And I'm SO glad that he didn't get my name
    -- at some points, I felt like it was all I had. 
    
    At this point, my name symbolizes a great deal to me (it's my self,
    my freedom from tyrany (sp?)). So I stayed an Augustine when I got 
    married. And I feel good about that decision.
    

    Liz Augustine

    
    
    One of the little rebellions in life for a woman is to keep her
    name - but it takes a committment on her part to do it.  I am
    now back to my birth name and will keep it for the rest of my
    life.  I like my childrens last name - but I really wish they
    were Leedbergs.
    
    I, also, wonder about the reasoning used by women to change their
    names - take their husbands.  I know why I did - the first time
    there did not seem to be any other option and the second was 
    EXTREME pressure from my second husband and family (his and mine).
    
    _peggy
    		(-)
    		 |	My name tells me who I am
    

    re .87:
    
    Conforming to society's standards and expectations is a very valid
    reason to change one's name at marriage.  You're absolutely right
    - some women hedge around ("I liked his name better", "I don't like
    my name"), rather than come out and admit that they are doing it
    to conform to society.  I'd rather one be honest about it and have
    a solid reason for doing it than some weak excuse.  I'll respect
    that person for their honesty a whole lot more than I will the person
    who does it because "I liked his name better."
    
    Another twist - I know a woman who has lived with her SO (unmarried)
    for a lot of years, they have two kids, one is 10 years old.  She
    says no way to marriage because of the tax situation, but has changed
    her last name to his and they put on the front of being married to
    strangers who might care (teachers, etc.).
    
    	-Ellen

    My son-in-law was stopped by a New Hampshire police officer when he
    was driving my daughter's car. When he showed the officer the
    registration, the cop was furious because my daughter had not notified
    the division of motor vehicles of "her new name." 
       
    Among other things, I was amazed at the cop's ignorance of the law.
    How do you deal with that type of ignorance? (My daughter probably
    would have told him it was none of his business what name she chose
    to use, but my son-in-law was too surprised. He also got a speeding
    ticket.)
    
    -bs     

    How interesting this is to read.  I have always been in favor of
    a woman keeping her own name (and a man keeping his) upon marriage.
    I think that if they have children then they should either alternate
    last names, or (my preference) that girl children take the mother's
    name and boy children take the father's name.  The choice should
    be theirs.
    
    However, in our case, we decided to have Shellie take my name. 
    Part of it was that she was born "Shellie Kelley" and she hated
    it.  Most of it was that gay couples have such a hard enough time 
    getting people to regard them as a couple that we wanted to avoid
    some of those problems.  We felt that having the same last name
    would help (and it HAS!).
    
    We discussed several different names.  We discussed hyphenation
    (but then she would still have Shellie Kelley), we discussed changing
    to Barton (a family name of hers that she likes) or Stone (a family
    name of mine that I like).  Finally we just went with Johns.  I'm
    still not sure that it is fair, and I continued to bring up the
    "are you sure" questions before the name change.  It boiled down
    to 2 things:  I don't like losing my identity, and I didn't dislike
    my name as much as she disliked hers.  I like the fact that my old
    friends from high school and college can find me in the phone book.
    I have trouble trying to remember their names.  I could have lived
    with Barton or Stone, but they were both "not my name" and then
    both of us would have had to adjust.  If it had been important to
    Shellie for me to change my name, also, then I would have done it,
    but luckily for me, her main interests were just in 1)getting rid
    of her name and 2)sharing a name between us.
    
    Credit has been easier, and we expect that teachers will give us
    less trouble.  We have all the legal papers set up so that if we
    do get hassles from hospitals, etc, that we should be able to get
    around it, but it is so much simpler not to have to prove yourselves
    constantly as being in a legitimate relationship.
    
                Carol

   When I was going through my divorce procedures, my then soon-to-be-ex
    wanted it to be an issue that the judge force me to go back to my
    maiden name (my lawyer laughed in his face)... but he didn't want
    me to even be connected with his family in any way shape or form...
    
    My family wanted me to go back to my maiden name, so I would have
    my "identity back"...
    
    I refused both.. why?  Well, many reasons, but the first and foremost
    was because of the kids.. I wanted to make life easier for them
    as long as I could.  Us all having the same last name for awhile
    was just easiest.. Plus I didn't want the hassle of having to go
    change ALL my legal documents.  I figured someday I might get
    remarried, and didn't want to have to change them, to change them
    again, so I figured I could wait... I probably would have done the
    same thing EVEN if I didn't have kids, but having them made the
    decision a lot easier.
    
    When it comes to changing last names in a marriage, I guess I hold
    an opinion that many of the readers will think is rather antiquated,
    [but it is my belief, and my own personal life that the belief belongs
    too, so I guess thats okay too]...  But, I like the idea of taking
    my husbands last name, and I am proud of the fact that he cared
    enough to ask me to share it with him.  It is the one thing that
    a man has gotten from his father, and is VERY important to him, and
    important to be passed down through generations.  Now, I understand
    that you can come right back and have EVERY argument in the book
    against WHAT I just said, but remember - it is MY personal belief,
    and if you believe different  - then that is fine too, as I respect
    the belief you have for your personal life.

    I'm glad we have the choice - as there was a time we didn't have
    the choice...
    
    Gale

RE: .33 Signatures

When I was in college in MI, I was an Arabic friend sign a check in Arabic. I
asked him if anyone ever gave him a hassle.  He said no, and that it was a good
way of preventing forgeries, 'cause anyone stealing his checkbook is not likely
to know to sign it in Arabic.  Apparently you can have anything you want
as a signature.

Well, I decided that that was a pretty nifty idea, and if he could do it, so
could I.  I opened a new checking account with the signature of my favorite role
playing character:  Delleron, in the Phonician alphabet: delta, eta, right
curve, right curve, eta, reverse nine, small o, lightning.  Too bad I can't show
you what it really looks like it.

Unfortunately, when I moved to MA, the banks out here have *no* sense of humor! 

Jim.

    You should see my allergy doctor's signature...his name is Bill
    Adelson, but you'd never know it.  I think that any scribble you
    want can be your legal signature, though your bank might (possibly)
    complain if they can't make it read to be something similar to your
    name.
    
    I have rotten handwriting, too.

    A lot of people seem to have the misimpression that one should be
    able to read a signature.  I have had clerks ask if I was signing
    a nickname, or they would stare carefully at my signature and my
    name on the check.
    
    However, the intent of a signature is verification that you are
    the authorized person.  To do this, it is necessary to compare your
    "live" signature against a presumed "official" one, such as on
    a driver's license.  Consider also the dual-signatures on
    traveller's checks.  It doesn't matter what you sign, only that
    the signatures are the same (or close enough).
    
    My signature is largely illegible.  But it is the SAME largely
    illegible signature every time, something I have verified by looking
    at signature records that go back ten years or more.  Really,
    an illegible signature is harder to forge than a "neat" one.
    
    I would say that you should be able to use anything you want as
    a signature, but you must use the SAME signature everywhere, or
    else you'll end up in trouble.
    
    				Steve

    I was just browsing through this notesfile and I realised that I
    had never fulfilled my promise to let you know how my name change
    went (see note 9.100ish).
    
    Well, as Helen pointed out in a later reply to that note, on April 24,
    I changed my name by deed poll from John Robert Bennison to Jon Robert
    Maurer. This was relatively painless - I just looked up a legal
    textbook in the law library here at work, selected the appropriate
    format, read the footnotes etc and drew it up. I then got one of
    the lawyers here to witness the document and hey presto !, new name.
    
    I then set about the long drawn out process of making officialdom
    aware of my action. No problems at all. Credit card companies -
    no problem. Bank - no problem. B u t  parents - *big* problem.
    
    While officialdom couldn't care less - they just process the paperwork,
    my family (parents, a couple of aunts etc) were *not at all pleased*
    and so followed difficult times trying to convince them that I wasn't
    forsaking the family name because I was ashamed of it etc. Fortunately,
    they didn't blame Helen for any of this and have accepted her in
    exactly the way I would've wanted with no ill feelings.
    
    Things are OK now except that the mebers of my family as above won't
    use my new name. It's not a big thing but it does niggle me a bit.

    BTW - my passport now has both my names on it. No-one has yet
    challenged me about this when I have gone through immigration controls,
    either here in Europe or in the US, so it must be OK (famous last
    words...).
    
    On the question of signature, when I was Bennison, I had a very
    unique and indecipherable signature which had evolved over the years.
    It's going to take me some time to evolve a new signature that has the
    same amount of 'character'.

    Just occaisionally, I announce myself on the phone as Bennison as
    a sort of reflex but this happens less and less frequently. Overall,
    I am pleased with my new name even though I have to spell it almost
    every time I speak to someone on the phone.
    
    Happy days !
    
    Jon

    .97 re names and family
    
    I've seen the niggle family can give you.  My family is Russian
    Orthodox, but my Dad and his wife are atheist (vehemently so). 
    My youngest sister is named Rebecca Katherine.  My grandparents'
    reaction:
    
    "REBECCA! A **JEWISH** NAME!?!?"
    
    They gave her the traditional silver Christening cup (even tho she
    was not Christened or Baptized for that matter).  It was engraved
    with her name:
    
    CATHERINE  TATISTCHEFF
    
    They used the C because there is no Russian Saint named Katherine, tho
    there is one named Catherine.  My brothers' and my cups all have our
    FULL names (including my hated, anglicized,  middle name -- Michael).
    
    Dad said, Keep it up folks...
    
    Lee
     
    

    I've only read the last few replies and from what I see I
    agree.  Family and social networks, as always, are the most difficuilt
    arenas in which to forge ahead.  One point seems to surface, if
    a woman's choice to no change her name raises eyebrows, we can
    almost foresee the number of eyebrows raised when an individual, especially
    a woman, changes careers.

    	At University we had a Pooh Society, the main objectives of
    which were to eat honey and conduct woozle hunts.
    
    	As all University societies, we had membearship fees, and a
    grant from the Students Union (to buy honey).
    
    	When we investigated a bank account, it turned out that one
    in the name of the society was just too much trouble. Every cheque
    would have to have the signatures of at least 3 society officers.
    Heck, if we couldn't trust the treasurer we wouldn't have elected
    them.
    
    	So we opened a bank account in the name of Henry Pootel, and
    after each election we would notify the bank that Henry had had
    an unfortunate accident to his right hand, and in future his signature
    would be ......
    
    	My wife was Henry Pootel for two years running, which eased
    the signature change problem, but she did get funny looks from some
    of the bank clerks.
    
    		Dave

    Re .75
    
    My mother thought it was silly for a woman to want to keep her own
    name.  She'd say, "what difference does it make if you have your
    father's name or your husband's name?" -- as if because you're a
    woman, your name is necessarily borrowed.  This made me crazy!! 
    How come my birth name was my father's name, but my husband's birth
    name was HIS name, not HIS father's name?
          
    Re .93
          
    And by the way, my birth name was also my mother's name; and it
    did belong to her even if she didn't take it until she was 21. 
    There's no reason you should have to change your name back to your
    "own" or "real" name when you get divorced (even though this is
    the best choice for some people).  You weren't just being lent that
    name by your husband; however you got the last name you have (you
    were given it at birth or adoption, you chose it at marriage, etc.),
    it _is_ YOUR name (not just his that you're using) to be kept or
    changed as _you_ choose.              
                                          
    I just get mad when people say "...oh, you're not using your own
    name..."  Of course I am.  Just because I once changed it doesn't
    mean this name doesn't belong to me.  
                                          
                                          

RE: -.1 (I hope)

>    I just get mad when people say "...oh, you're not using your own
>    name..."  Of course I am.  Just because I once changed it doesn't
>    mean this name doesn't belong to me.  

	Thank you.  I never thought about it that way.   Yes, Sullivan
	is now my name.  I'm one of "the Sullivans", even though that
	evokes some shared history that I don't share, there is now
	some level of shared history (since my marriage).

...Karen

    If I had it to do over again, I would NOT change my name to match my
    husband's!  It has absolutely nothing to do with carrying on the family
    tradition or any other such noble gestures.  Rather, my attitude is
    caused by the fact that changing my name is one of the most painful
    experiences I've ever gone through!  I got married in 1971 and changed
    my name to my husband's.  What a pain!  Charge accounts, magazine
    subscriptions, frequent flyer accounts, all my friends and co-workers
    having to get used to a new name -- a real hassle!  But I was young and
    starry-eyed and it seemed the right thing to do at the time.  Then I
    got divorced in 1981 and, remembering the pain and trouble, decided NOT
    to change my name back to what it had been before I married.  That was
    a mistake.  Last March I married again.  To the most wonderful man who
    has ever walked this earth, I'm totally convinced (no bias here).  He
    didn't care what name I used, one way or the other.  But I had this
    awful feeling about keeping my FIRST HUSBAND'S NAME.  If only I had
    gone back to my original, maiden name when I divorced, I would have
    kept that name in an instant.  As it was, I ended up changing my name
    yet again.  The administrative nightmare lasted more than six months,
    but it's pretty much over now. The fact that I moved to a new town when
    we married made things easier; at least I didn't have co-workers, etc.
    who had to get used to a new name. 
    
    Anyway, if I had it to do over again, I would have held on to my
    original name forever.
    
    							Pat

    re .-1
    I did that one, too - and I still have some things in my first
    husband's name - for example, my real estate bill from the town
    still comes that way (even though I own the house, and always did)
    and they don't seem to be able to figure out how to fix that even
    though I changed the deed to the house back to my own name when
    I got divorced.  Luckily my mortgage bank seems to be able to cope
    with paying the tax bill from the escrow anyhow, regardless of what
    name it shows up under.  But it still bugs me.  And it took even
    longer to straighten out all the various creditors, subscriptions,
    social security, banks, etc. when I changed my name back than it
    did when I changed them all the first time - for example, social
    security wanted me to send them the ORIGINAL of the divorce decree
    (they wouldn't take a photocopy, even a notarized one) showing that
    I had changed my name back to my original name - I refused to do
    that, of course, so I ended up going to their office in person,
    watching them process my request, and taking my paperwork away when
    I left.
    
    And now, of course, we get phone calls and mail for "Mrs. Young"
    (must be Pual's mother, who lives an hour-and-a-half drive from
    us) or for "Mr. Richardson" (I guess that was my father -
    unfortuneately, he is dead now) -- usually these turn out to be
    people who want us to contribute to something we aren't interested
    in!  I guess you can't win.

    re:.104
    
    That's all right. I'd say about once a month on average, I get
    a piece of mail addressed to "Mrs. J. Boyajian". There isn't
    and never has been a "Mrs. J. Boyajian". One time, they got my
    name inside out and sent me something addressed to "Mrs. Jean
    Boya".
    
    --- jerry

    My mother named me Cathy (not Cathleen, not Catherine, not Kathleen
    nor Katherine).  Just plain Cathy.  You would not believe the hassles
    I get with the name Cathy.  Mind you, I get "is that with a C or
    a K?" and I don't care about that.  But, when it comes to my legal
    name, no one believes me that Cathy IS My legal name.  Why?  Gee,
    I really don't know.
    
    My point: my MOTHER chose the name Cathy instead of the above names
    for two reasons: Cathleen or Kathleen are Irish spelling, Catherine
    or Katherine are either French or Christian spellings (I forget)
    AND my aunt on my FATHER's side was Catherine and my mother didn't
    want to FAVOR anyone on my FATHER's side because my Memere didn't
    care for my FATHER, AT ALL.  (What ever happened to a good name,
    like Mary).
    
    So, it is possible to change my name to Catherine and when I'm married,
    change that too at the same time.
    
    My reasons for changing are my shame for my father's name.  I don't
    want it anymore and I will put up with the hassles, no matter how
    great they are.
    
    Anyways, I'm first and foremost Cathy, I always am and always will
    be no matter what two names (or three, Confirmation name- Therese)
    go along with it.
    
    Someone mentioned this before in this file and I won't forget the
    description.
    
    Cathy (who learned alot from this particular note)
             

    re:.106
    
    My sister had a similar problem. My parents named her "Betty Jo".
    That's her first name; she has no middle name. She always had a
    problem when people would not believe that that was her legal
    name, assuming that her first name *had* to be "Elizabeth" and
    her middle name "Josephine".
    	In fact, my mother had a devil of a time convincing the
    principal of my sister's elementary school that my sister's name
    was not "Elizabeth Josephine". They didn't want to believe *her*
    either!
    
    --- jerry

    Notes 9 and 407 on name changes have been interesting, and I thought
    I'd put in my two bits... 

    My birth name was Linda Pettijohn.  I changed my last name to Schlosser
    when I got married and changed it back when I got divorced. When John
    and I decided to get married, I agonized over whether to change my last
    name.  A friend teasingly suggested I keep Linda Pettijohn and he
    change his to John Pettilinda, just for the symmetry.  Although John
    took the joke gracefully, he is *extremely* attached to his last name,
    so much so that it was difficult for *him* to joke about it. When I
    told my mother I didn't plan to change my last name, at least not yet,
    I expected her to be startled, perhaps shocked.  She acted like I'd
    been *rude* to her.  Strange.  But she more or less got over it. 

    Anyway, I dithered for most of a year after we married and changed my
    last name before we bought a house.  I readily confess that I gave in
    to societal pressure.  People at work asked me "Isn't it illegal not to
    change your name?!"  Ack!  The thing that irritated me most was my
    doctor's office, where they give one a short form to fill out each
    visit.  Among other things, this short form has a place for "patient's
    name" and "head of household."  Double Ack!  I wrote, and continue to
    write, "no such person" for "head of household."  After filling out the 
    paperwork, I would give it to the receptionist, who needed it in order
    to pull my medical records.  She would glance at it and then look
    confused and ask whether I was married.  I told her yes and she would
    look relieved and tell me that in that case they had my medical records
    filed under my husband's name.  I told her I doubted that, we had
    different medical insurance, went to doctors 40 miles apart, and paid
    our own medical bills.  She would ask for his name, and I would sigh
    and give her his name, first and last, and she would look at me *real*
    blankly for a minute, before deciding that they really did have me
    filed under my own name.  Oh, well...  (Maybe I did *some* good, as I
    think they still have me filed under my own name now, not John's.) 

    I didn't find the name change itself to be that big a hassle any of the
    three times I've done it.  Sometimes I regret changing it, mostly I
    like sharing a name with John.  It was harder getting used to new
    initials than to the new last name, somehow.  Although "show user"
    displayed "his" username for several months.  :-)

    On a related tangent, my father is an elementary school principal.  He
    says that for the last 10-15 years he's learned to simply accept
    whatever names he's told for parents and children during registration.
    Parent's last names may not match each other, kids apparently in the
    same family may not have matching last names, and kids and parents
    names also may not match.  He just writes it down.  I suspect he'd be a
    little bewildered at first if the parents were the same sex, though. 

    One last anecdote.  A couple of years ago I made a small purchase in a
    clothing store that asked if I'd like to apply for a credit card.  I
    did, and was pleased to note that the card had two sections, titled
    "applicant" and "spouse," which isn't as good as "co-applicant," but is
    a lot better than "wife."  So I put my name down first, and put John's
    name down as "spouse."  In a few weeks we got our cards, looked great.
    A few weeks after that we got our first sale notice--addressed to
    Mr. and Mrs. Linda L. Huxtable.  Such enlightenment!

    -- Linda

    Coming from a family of all women, I'm not sure what I'll do when
    I get to the point of choosing to keep my name as is or use some
    other form.
    
    My oldest sister just got married and decided to keep her name,
    both for professional reasons and simplicity.  Had she hyphenated
    both names, it would have become Hutchins-Beauchamp-Renshaw-Beauchamp.
    Quite a mouthful!