Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Tracy,
    
    When we adopted our second child my husband Don arranged his
    schedule to be home with him two days a week and go to work
    for 10 hours a day the other three days, because I was teaching
    those two days. We also got all kinds of odd remarks about .
    Even to this day we also get remarks about dad 'babysitting'
    rather than just taking care of the kids.
    
    I can't answer your questions....I suspect the remarks come
    from people with more conservative views of what mens and womens
    roles are....but we have had similar experiences.
    
    nice to see you in womansnotes again
    
    Bonnie

    In my German class in college, my teacher tried to teach us about
    the German culture as well as the language.  What you are doing
    is not uncommon there.  My teacher said that men didn't feel they
    should only be the bread winners, that they wanted to be fathers
    too.  So in many dual career marriages, the husband will take off
    work to spend time with the kids while the wife is working and vice
    versa.
    
    Are there any German readers of this file that could confirm or
    deny that?
                   

    
    
    I guess I do come from someplace else, my father took care of
    us kids (5 of us under 10) during the day (he worked 3d shift)
    while my mother worked.  This lasted about 2 years then my
    grandmother moved in to help.  I had male and female sitters
    as a child, all of my bothers and sisters have done child care.
    My kids have had a variety of people care for them (up until
    they went to live with their father in 1980) that included my
    sisters, my brothers, my sister-in-laws, my cousin Allen, day-care
    workers (male as well as female), my cousin's kids.
    
    _peggy
    
    		(-)
    		 |	What flavor do you want?
    

    Re .1, a while ago my S.O. had asked one of his male friends at
    DEC if he could get together with some other men one evening.  His
    friend said, no, that his wife was going out, and he had to "babysit".
     I know I never thought of taking care of my own child as
    "babysitting".  Neither has my S.O. since he's raised his own two
    girls alone for years.  It seems some couples still fall into the
    traditional male/female roles and this may be why so many women
    have questioned .0.  Perhaps many women have not been lucky enough
    yet to have male partners who want to share in childcare.
    
    Lorna
    

    When my kids were teenagers, along with the normal sibling rivelry,
    the was compitition for baby sitting jobs. I had a boy and a girl
    and I found that my son was in bigger demand than my daughter. My
    son looked at babysitting as a responsibility, my daughter looked
    at it as a way to make money. At fourteen my son took car of one
    child regularly and felt he was the one who potty trained the child,
    he bragged for weeks about his accomplishment.  
    
    My son is now 26, and I know that when he becomes a parent he will
    be more than willing to take responsibility for caring for his
    offspring. I think that attitude starts with ones own upbringing.

    Re: .2
    
    I can't speak for German culture as a whole, or even what it is
    today, but my father and grandfather are German, and they both
    refused to have ANYTHING to do with taking care of children.
    
    As for myself, I've generally split the child care duties 50-50
    for my son.  I took care of him for a month straight when
    he was two while his mother was on a business trip, and now he
    lives with me half the time at two-week intervals.  I've been
    there from the start, diapering, feeding and nurturing.  Fathers
    who shy away from this are really missing out.
    
    As I pointed out in the "Child Support" note, fathers who care
    for their children are looked upon as freaks, mainly by women.
    (Could it be that they think their domain is being invaded
    by men?)

    				Steve

    Re .6, Steve, my guess would be that most women don't resent men
    wanting to care for children.  My guess would be that traditionally
    it's been so rare that they're just dumbfounded when they see it.
     Unfortunately, I think that men who feel like you do are still
    in the minority (maybe not in this notesfile, but in life).
    
    Lorna
    

    re: .7, re: .6
    I think a woman who identified herself has the one who takes care
    of the child, and has no other skills to be proud of, would indeed
    be threatened by a man doing as good a job or better. Particularly
    if that man is her husband. This is my impression from talking to
    women in my home town who are my mother's age.
    	Mez

    
    
    You sound like my kind of person!
    
    I'm expecting in October and I've been asked by many women that
    know me well if I'm coming back to work.  That really surprizes
    me!  They know me well enough that they shouldn't even have to
    ask.  Yet, no-one asks my husband if he's going back to work.
    My sister worked while her two girls were babies and her husband
    stayed home and took care of the kids.  I did not think that
    strange at all, but I imagine many supposibly liberated women
    did.  
    
    Oh well.... you can only live your life the way you want.  At
    least you don't have to live it the way other people think
    "they" and "you" should.  That's the way I look at it.  I know
    some pretty unhappy women that believe things should be one
    way because that's the way it has always been and don't have the
    guts to stand up to people and let them know how they really feel,
    and change it.
    
    

    re: .9 ("are you coming back to work?")
    
    Yeah, I fall into that trap all the time. Liberated me will ask
    the woman if she's excercising her alternatives, but not the man.
    So now, when a couple is getting married, I ask them _both_ if they're
    changing their names. I'm sure I only have a couple more thousand
    stereotypes to go... :-).
    	Mez

    The husband of one of my old high school friends took six months
    off from work when their daughter was born - Sue had a much better
    job than he did (I think he teaches junior high school; she is a
    mathematician).  I thought that was pretty neat.  They just had a
    son a couple of months ago, but I don't know how they are arranging
    things this time (the daughter is almost five now) as I haven't
    seen Sue for a while (I wish she hadn't moved so far away).

    When I was an infant my mother begged my father to watch my older
    brother and me one evening while she went with some friends to the
    movies.  He do but with the understanding that I would be in bed
    before she left.  Just after the movie started there was an
    announcement, "Mrs, Shepherd, please come to the managers office,
    there is an emergency at home".  To say the least, she was paniced.
    It seems I had woken up, and was "wet".
    
    My father was old country German.
    
    My first husband, my childrens father, was also raised by an old
    country father.... he was there long enough to make the babies (7),
    but never there when they were born or to actually help in the rearing,
    just for discipline; so............ he also wanted nothing to do
    with our kids when they were little.
    
    My second husband quite often tells me to "get lost" so that he
    can have some free time with the kids, and they aren't even his
    by birth.

    Let me rephrase that one paragraph:
    
    My first husband is from a family of 7, he and I did not have 7.
    His father was there for the disciplining, but nothing more... and
    my ex had the same feelings as his father.
    
    (after rereading my reply, I realized I had not been clear about
    who the 2 different "he"'s were.  Sorry!

    Maybe this belongs in another note, but has anyone seen the Anicin
    commercial where the married couple is buying a home?  The husband
    stands in a room commenting on how it will make a great nursery.
    The wife says she just got a promotion and doesn't want kids yet.
    The man crosses his arms and says "Well I do."
    
    point 1: If more men would take the responsibility for taking care
    of the kids, we wouldn't see this woman as she is portrayed, a power
    hungry exec who cares more about her job that having kids.
    
    Then they make their pitch for Anicin and it commes back to the
    couple, where the wife says "This will make a good nursery, SOMEDAY."
    
    point 2:  I liked this commercial when I first saw it because the
    woman was standing up for what she wanted.  But alas, the commercial
    has just been changed.  They've cut out a tiny word that made the
    difference.  There no longer is the word "someday".
    
    How strange that they would go through all that trouble to make
    a commercial where the woman is seen as independent and cut out
    the key word.                                      
    
    Please forgive me if I've gone off the subject.
    
    
    

    re: .0 --
    
    My experiences after Steven was born 3 1/2 years ago were exactly
    the same as what you recount.  
    
    ALL the flak I took about coming back to work right away, about leaving
    Steven in day care (how can you stand to leave him every day?  aren't
    you just dying to get home?), about travelling, about Neil taking care
    of Steven (do you trust him alone for that long?) were from WOMEN.
    From supposedly intelligent and educated and apparently independent and
    liberated WOMEN.  
    
    The men around me just took it for granted that these things could be
    arranged.  I asked one man friend about it and he said, "I assume that
    if you were unhappy with the arrangements, you would change them." 
    
    The man next door wants to be involved with raising his daughter. He
    wasn't raised that way, so he's awkward.  Every time he tries to do
    something like feed her or change her diaper, though, his wife gets
    impatient and shoos him away so she can do it right.  He likes to play
    with Caroline, but repeatedly when they play ball or tag in the yard,
    the mother comes out and scolds him for playing too hard, for making
    Caroline tired and dirty, etc. 
    
    I've seen similar incidents in most of the families in our area, most
    not quite so blatant but certainly suggestive.  The women I've watched
    definitely seem to feel threatened.  It seems like a great many women
    are afraid that if men really do take an equal share of child raising
    and household responsibility, men will take over that as they have
    taken over the rest of the world, and women won't be just confined to
    the home, they won't have *anything.* 
    
    --bonnie

    Along the same idea, I still feel very reluctant when I'm talking
    to people I've just met to tell them that, although we have joint
    custody, my daughter is currently living with her father.  The 3
    of us feel good about the decision, and we know it's the most practical
    arrangement.  But, society has made so much of kids belonging with
    their mothers, that I find myself being afraid that strangers will
    think less of me when they find out Melissa doesn't live with me.
     I also resent that I find myself over explaining the situation
    to almost total strangers, saying things like, but we talk in the
    phone very day and see each other at least once a week, when it's
    really none of their business.  I doubt that many divorces fathers
    feel this reluctance about saying their kids live with their ex-wives.
     It's still pretty much expected that the kids will live with the
    mother unless she's an alcholic or something.
    
    Lorna
    

    Just what is it that makes "people" think that all women are
    automatically suited for childcare?  Must be the old "bilogoy is
    destiny" argument or something....  Like when guests come over with
    their baby and leave *me* to watch it, figuring that of course I
    know how to change its diapers (I think I have changed diapers three
    times in my life, since my brother is only a couple of yeares younger
    than I am, and we are the youngest of the cousins by several years
    in our generation) - I'll admit that, being a resourceful type,
    I *did* eventually figure out how to connect baby to Huggy, but
    not any better than Paul would have done, and certainly less well
    than someone who cares for children for a living or on a regular
    basis (male or female).  Note: when my brother and I were of the
    age to need them, diapers fastened with big safety pins...

    Funny how some of those women who shoo their husbands away from
    the baby because he is too awkward are able to stand by and admire
    and encourage the efforts of a 12 year old girl who is equally as 
    awkward if not more so!

    	Soon after my son was born, my wife said "If ever we get divorced,
    then you take the kid!", and I agreed.
    
    	Now, 17 years and two daughters later, and still married, I
    would still hope to take care of the kids. Admittedly  now, my son
    is almost leaving home anyway, and my elder daughter is quite old
    enough to decide with whom she lives, but the younger one has a
    personality clash with her mother and I would hate to leave them
    alone together for too long.
    
    	My son was taught to change and bottle feed his younger sister
    when he was 10, and now he is much in demand as a babysitter, so
    I know he can cope.