Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    I expect everyone to call me by my first name because my last name
    is unpronouncible by the uninitiated American.  Further, I expect
    to be treated with respect, and generally get it.
    
    My training [admittedly a little Old World in nature] however requires
    me to address people by their title+last_name to indicate respect.
    
    Hmmm...  Yet more training to reject??
    
    Lee

    About five years ago I started calling my family doctor Wayne....
    
    right after he helped me survive a ruptured appendix....he didn't
    even notice any difference as far as I can tell...
    
    I call my dentist Dr but then he calls me Mrs.
    
    Bonnie

    Funny about that--I haven't bridged the gap myself, but I find myself
    using nicknames a lot.  For example, my dentist is Dr. Chudnofsky--YOU
    try saying that with a mouth full of dental gear!  I (and most of
    his patients) call him "Dr. Chud"..
    
    About medical doctors, now--what strikes me funny is how their nurses
    and receptionists always call them "Doctor", like it was his Christian
    name!  They say, "Doctor will see you now", and "Doctor is busy",
    and "Have you talked with Doctor yet?" :-)
    
    Maybe their mothers knew when they were babies that they would grow
    up to be doctors and just named them that.  Maybe mothers  of the
    knights of old had foreknowledge, too, and named their boy babies
    "Sir".
    
    Jane
    

Doctors:
Heck, my pop-in-law is a doctor, and I haven't even gotten up the nerve
to call him Joseph! Everyone but his kids refer to him as "the Doctor"
at some time or other. He's of a different generation, of a time when
doctors were very, very special (and didn't need litigation insurance).
Because I care for him, I certainly don't want to offend him. 

Seems to me generation would make a difference in how a doctor would
respond to being called by first name. And I'm not particularly into
offending someone I'm trusting my health too! :-)
	Mez 

    My feeling is that titles have meaning when they authenticate for
    others that the 'right' individual was involved in a formal situation.
    
    When a legal or religious or business matter is effected that requires
    a certain level of authority, the title of the person is appropriate
    -  otherwise the person's name is more appropriate.
    
    In my case, when people ask me what to call me as an ordained minister,
    I reply .... Mike.   When I sign church documents, I prefix the
    title to my sign...
    
    
    
                   I like first names
    
                           Mike
    

    A friend of mine, a woman about 50 who has a lot of medical training
    and experience but is not a physician, changed to a new doctor a
    few years ago.  [For some background, she found him particularly
    emphathetic, competent, courteous, etc.]  At some time during the
    first visit he said [names have been changed, of course],
    
    M.D.: 	"Sue, would....."
    
    Sue:	"If you call me 'Sue,' I'd prefer calling you 'Henry.'
    		If you would prefer to have me call you 'Dr. Morgan,'
    		then I would prefer that you call me 'Ms. Sherman.'
    
    M.D.: 	"Well, it doesn't really matter to me, Sue.  Have you
    		had any problems recently with..."
    
    Sue:	"Well, Henry, actually about 5 weeks ago I noticed..."
    
    From then on, they were on a first name basis and very comfortably
    so -- even the staff became used to her announcing, "this is Sue;
    is Henry available," and they, too, began calling her 'Sue'.
    
    FWIW, "Henry" was considerably younger than her -- not sure whether
    that made things easier or more difficult.
    
    I thought it was *terrific*, but never tried it myself.  Most of
    my recent physicians have been women, and for some reason I am
    less concerned about their using my first name and my rather
    automatically calling them "Dr. ..."
    
    A view from the other side:  when I teach classes, I am equally
    at ease if students call me "Penelope," or "Professor Greene", etc.
     
    	Penelope

	This reminds of something that happened when I was at Wilford Hall
	medical center. In the military you usually refer to everyone
	by their military title. One Dr I worked for had a fit when I called
	him Captain. His comment "It took me all my money and 8 years of
	school to be a doctor. I signed a piece a paper and became a
	captain in ten minutes. But in private and out of the hospital
	I wish you'd call me Bill". Guess it's all in your point of view.
	liesl

        Sorry, but the way I was brought up, it's either "Sir" (or
        "Ma'am") or "Dr. Brown", or "doctor" as a form of address. I
        also glare at or walk away from salesmen who call me "Jim",
        "James", "Jimmy" or the like. At work, DEC being less formal, I
        use "John Brown" or "Smith" (or "KO") the more formal informal
        references.
        
        Personally, I think that the concept of social distance is
        important and useful. It allows us to reserve the intimacy of
        first names to those with whom we feel close. By using first
        names for every one I think you water down not only the respect
        that seems distasteful to the author ofthe base note, but also
        intimacy. The overuse of first names and nicknames always
        strikes me as artificial and insincere familiarity and too often
        reminds me of the salesman's trick.
        
        Of course among my friends in WomanNotes I am glad to be called, 
        
        JimB -- however you pronounce it.

    
    
    
    A vet may not be the same as an M.D. but I've always treated my
    equine specialist with respect and called her Doctor.  However
    I find that other people that use her, as well as people that
    work for her, refer to her by her first name.  I recently went
    to an equine clinic a couple of months ago which was composed
    of veterinarians and veterinarian surgeons and they all in-
    troduced themselves by their first names to me.  I was surprized!
    
    Perhaps the trend is changing, but as far as the vets go, they
    appear to be changing it themselves.  However, I'm not going to
    prance into my doctor's office and call him by his first name.
    
    

    No, a veterinarian is not the same as an M.D.
    It's my understanding that a DVM requires more
    schooling than a M.D....but I still call my
    vet by her first name.  Because I feel so close
    to her, almost like a friend.
    
    

    My answer to the basic question, "Who deserves respect?", would
    be, all life deserves respect.  But, I can narrow it down to all
    people deserve respect.  I don't think that anybody is "better"
    than anybody else.  We are all made of flesh and blood, we all (as
    the old saying goes) put on our pants one leg at a time, and we
    will all eventually be dead.  I think we all deserve to be treated
    with the respect due us as human beings born on this planet (where
    else, right?), no more and no less.  It's just part of treating
    other people the way you would like to be treated yourself.
    
    To me titles such as, Dr., Your Honor, Mr. President, Atty. so and
    so, Your Highness, Mrs. Married-to-a-rich-man, are all just ways
    for certain people to set themselves apart from the general masses,
    and feel superior to the average person, and demand preferential
    treatment.  I'd rather not comply.  If I'm in a room and somebody
    says the name, Lorna, I assume they are talking to me and I respond.
     To me that's the purpose of a name, nothing more or less, and it
    should be good enough for everybody.
    
    This is what I would say to doctors, it's very nice that you had
    enough intelligence, enough money, and enough ambition and will-power
    to attend college for all those years, it's great that you may have
    the ability to save people's lives because society certainly can
    use that type of expertise, you're personally very lucky to live
    in a country that has made big business of medicine since you'll
    soon be very well off financially.  Congratulations, but I also
    assume you did all of this of your own free will, and I don't think
    you as a person deserve any more respect than the guy that just
    pumped my gas for me.
    
    I don't have a regular doctor or vet myself so I usually solve the
    problem by not calling them anything, since I seldom remember what
    their names are anyway (having just met them).
    
    Lorna
    

    I think .7 has a good idea.  Then, whichever way it works out, you
    will at least be on "equal footing."
    
    My ob/gyn always called me Ms. Warren.  (I told her I didn't like Mrs.
    and she always remembererd, which I appreciated.  However, after
    she delivered my daughter, who had a lot of problems at first, she
    would check on her progress regularly and I suddenly noticed she
    had started calling me Tracy.  With her, I didn't mind.
    
    I've told my daughter's doctors I prefer Ms.  Her development
    pediatrician made a note of it and her reports come to Mr. and Ms.
    and references to me are Ms.  Her pediatrician just ignored me and
    calls me Mrs.  I was going to start calling her Mrs., but it turns
    out she's leaving anyway.
    
    --
    
    It does make me mad that so many doctors act as though their profession
    is so much better than any other.  One thing that really irks me...In
    just about any business or institution, all the employees park in
    one parking lot and customers and visitors get special parking up
    front.  At hospitals, doctors get the best spots and the
    customers--sick and handicapped people--have to park far away. 
    Something is wrong with the reasoning behind that.
    

    re: .0 (plus others)
    
    Generally I wind up calling a person by what is comfortable and
    appropriate between us. If Doctor is appropriate between my minister
    and myself - then that's what I call her.
    
    In court, you'd best stick with "Your Majesty" or you might  find
    your head rolling around the floor. Before the magistrate, it was
    appropriate to call the "Justice of the Peace" - Sir ! (as well
    as wise).
    
    When I was "down south" for a year (Missisipppi .. or Msippi?) I
    found just about EVERYONE I didn't know was calling me Sir, and
    , as appropriate I found myself  callling everyone else Sir.One
    aqainetence pointed out that it was NOT appropriate to call Blacks
    sir, buit rather by their first name "John, get that car"," John,
    etch me some ice tea", ... etc. I didn't mind calling John sir.
    
    I don't mind calling my older woman friends "Ma'm" either, although
    most seemed to prefer being called by their first names. (older
    == greater than 60 or so).
    
    I think the most 'dogmatic' Doctors I've ever met were in college,
    where ... since many of them 'knew' they had a strangle hold on
    the students ... insisted on being called "Doctor". The better
    professors and instructors usually  went by their first names. I
    guess when people are  competant enough to to permit their views
    be challenged; they're also human enough to permit dialogue without
    allowing pedagogue get in the way.
  
    To quote some "NCOs" ... "Don't call me SIR. I am not a GD officer !"
    
    .bob.

    
    re: st.hilaire.....
    	that's why i love you!
    
    re: judges
    	if it's a sign (statement) of respect to call a judge
    "your honor"
    or some other equally obnoxious and untrue label...
    (is she/he really an honor?)
    (has it ever been an honor to be in court?)
    
    why are we so afraid of what she/he will do if we don't say
    "your honor"?
    
    we pay her/his salary.
    she/he didn't get voted in....(though, when i'm elected pres., that
    will change)
    and she/he is there to serve us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    they should be calling us respectful names for fear of what we
    may do to them....and not the reverse.
    
    

    
    
    btw....i do not rise for judges
    and i do not call them anything that will give them the psychological
    upper hand....
    	"yes your honor"
    	"no your honor"
    	"please don't whip me your honor"
    
  i don't bow to kings or queens, either.
    
    i grovel to no person.
    
    it's not respect if we HAVE to do it.....\
    it's fear.
    and meaningless.
    

    in re .15 and .16  couldn't a judge send you to jail for
    disrespect or something if you don't?

    re .17:
    
    Yes. The crime is "Contempt of Court".
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    
    
    if i refuse to call him "your honor"
    and/or refuse to stand for his arrival...
    
    and he finds that "contempt of court"
    
    then he doesn't deserve respect and i do have contempt of court.
    
    i don't want to "have to" stand for judges...
    
    if i "have to" do it it is not respect.
    it's fear.
    

    
    I don't know.  I always thought of it as a token gesture to save
    me hassle. 
    
    DFW

    
    if they said "it's a token gesture and don't worry, if you
    don't do it nothing will happen"
    
    fine.
    
    but when i'm told (by many in notes at this point) that if i don't
    do it that i can be hassled and fined and arrested and shot (much
    to your chagrin, eh?) then as far as i'm concerned it has nothing
    to do with "respect" and everything to do with psychological
    manipulation!
    
    	why go to jail for someones ego?
    	why stand up for someone elses ego....?
    
    	because it's only judges ego that wants me to stand up for
    him....
    
    	does standing for a judge automaticaally mean that one will
    not lie in court?
    	does placing one's hand on a book of ancient myths and raising
    the other and swearing to almight zeus man that one won't lie?
    
    	let's just be real.
    	i should go in to court and sit down.
    	the judge should come in and sit down, too.
    	(remember, WE ARE PAYING HIM AND HE IS DOING THIS JOB FOR US!)

    	When he wants me to answer some questions he should just say;
    	"rik ol buddy...if we catch you lying....you'll be in deep
    sneakers!"
    	and i'll say..."i understand."
    	
    	how many people (reagan, nixon, erhlechman, mafiosa, hoods
    	have gone into court, stood up when they were *told* to, 
    placed one hand on a black book, raised the other hand, sworn to
    tell the truth the whole truth so help me god...
    and then lied their asses off?
    
    

You stand to show respect for the *law* -- the judge is the embodiment
of the law.

You need not place your hand on any book if you so choose.  You are
required to swear or affirm that you will tell the truth.

You -- as a defendent -- are not paying for the judge.  We as citizens
are demanding that the laws are kept, respected, and upheld.

Whether anyone else obeys the law, or lies in court, has no bearing
on your behavior.

Martin.

Ps: perhaps we could continue this in Soapbox.

	I've been reading this conference for about 2 months now and what
	I've read has been both interesting, thought provocking and 
	educational. 

	I have only replied to one other note, but I thought you might be
	interested in this little fact (well I _think_ it's fact, but I've
	never been able ot prove it)

	In England, before one had to swear on the Bible, there was another
	method by which the 'judge' got you to swear to tell the truth.

	That method?



	The defendant swore while clutching his testicles!!! - seems they
	thought that if you swore to tell the truth and then lost those
	in the event of discovered purgery, the cases of purgery would be  
	less!! :-)

	I read this in a book on amazing facts...

	It's funny - I wonder what the women defendants swore on?? :-)

	(There Probably weren't any naughty women then! (-:)


	Paul Burrell.

< Note 395.23 by RDGE28::BURRELL "Friends with the Beauty queens" >
                          -< You don't need a Bible >-


>	The defendant swore while clutching his testicles!!! - seems they
>	thought that if you swore to tell the truth and then lost those
>	in the event of discovered purgery, the cases of purgery would be  
>	less!! :-)

This actually dates to the Roman era, and is the origin of the word
"testify".

--David

    
    
    re: stand to show respect for the law...
    
    i see...everyone who has stood for a judge was showing respect
    for the law.....every criminal, every murderer, every mafioso
    every warped politician....
    
    and believe me, martin, should i be forced to stand....
    i'll not respect the law (hey i respect lots of laws...!
    anymore than if i had remained seated...
    	if standing = respect
    	and sitting = norespect
    	what happens when i stand on one leg?
    	or fart?...aren't farting and burping considered good manners
    in some places?
   
     	i consulted a head shrink friend of mine on the subject
    and he said
    	"yes, you're basically right, as usual, rik, the practice
    of standing for a judge is a method of keeping the citizens
    in line! It's really nothing more than a power play..."
   	then he added, quite disrespectfully..."you jerk..."
    	so i paid him and left	

    I think that some people in this world are lazy and unwilling to
    commit to anything for a long enough period of time to accomplish
    anything, and some people are not.  Through determination and will
    power some people overcome any barrier to their success, and some
    people turn anything into a barrier they can't overcome.  I find
    that those who accomplish the least in life are often the most
    insistant that no one should deserve any special recognition or
    respect for their accomplishments.
    
    DRC
    

    .26
    
    Based on this note, I would have to find some special title for
    the farmer who toiled very hard to provide food for my table often
    overcoming barriers to their success, like drought and pestilence.
    
    I would need a special title for the plumber who repaired my plugged
    toilet, a very unpleasant task.
    
    I would like a special title for the woman who cleans my office..she
    is working hard to learn the English language so she can better
    herself...or is she not deserving until she accomplishes something
    that we all agree is a measure of success?
    
    Determination and will power come in many forms and not only present
    in individuals who become doctors or judges!