Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Kerry,
    
    I think alot of the labeling originated from outside.  Most of us
    were not born calling ourselves feminists; it was a label applied
    by others which we chose to accept or not.
    
    I would disagree with "men don't need labels"; they use them as
    much as any woman does, just about different things.  Every person
    who has included the line "I am a feminist" when introducing themselves
    to me in person has been a man [some of them are pretty good-looking,
    too :) ].
    
    Lee

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Note 379.0                   men don't need labels                       1 reply
CEODEV::FAULKNER "Mr Manners"                         8 lines   8-JUL-1987 16:05
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    I think there is too much emphasis on labeling here.
    
    Why is it that when woman a) declares she is not a feminist immdiately
    woman b) says oh then you are a traditionalist.
    
    Why is it that way here I don't see people in mennotes saying similar
    things, maybe being a man is good enough.
     

    God (or the Goddess, depending on your preference) knows that I
    have fallen into the trap of spending a lot of time worrying about
    exactly the right label for myself, for a particular issue, for
    someone else.  It's almost as if it's part of my wardrobe. Am I
    fat or merely hefty?  Am I radical or merely feminine?  Is my mother
    less traditional than Neil's mother even though Neil's mother had
    a career and mine didn't?
    
    Oh, come on, bonnie, WHO GIVES A SH*T?????  What a colossal waste
    of effort and time.
    
    When you catch me at it, shout at me.  I deserve it.

    --bonnie

    
     A ways back, wile in college I became a member of an international
     known order known as Gamma Delta Iota.  It has no exclusitivty as
     to sex, race, color, creed nor religion. Its membership was open
     to anyone who felt and thought a certain way. I have retained its
     philosophy ever since and will continue to do so. 
    
    What ??? you never heard of it......Well let me tell you what it
    means
    
                           God Damn Independtant
    
    As Popeye puts it  .."I ams what I ams and thats all whats I am"
    Under that pretense and depending upon the subject, I have been
    "labeled" so many different things by so many different people,
    I lost count. The major thing being I KNOW WHO AND WHAT I AM.
    With that in mind I dont worry about the rest.
    
                                  Bob B

    
    I always wondered if that organization (if a college has fraternities
    and sororities, it has GDIs, too) wasn't vaguely oxymoronic.  All these
    uncategorizable independents getting together under the label of
    independent. 
    
    The chapter at my school went so far as to get T-shirts.
    
    This is not to say your idea is not a good one -- the above is more
    of an aside thenanything else.
    
    DFW

    Labels can get so confusing!  I seem to remember having been accused
    of actually hating men, and being bitter towards men in Womannotes.
     I don't call myself a feminist, even though I consider myself to
    be, because I've never actually been active in any organizations
    or anything (so I guess I feel guilty about claiming to be a feminist).
     But, people have told me that some men reading my notes thought
    I was a radical feminist, then upon meeting me at least 2 or 3
    reportedly said "She's no feminist."  I really can't figure it out.
     Maybe I'm too short, and soft-spoken to actually BE a real feminist.
     Maybe feminist aren't supposed to giggle and carry on pleasant
    chit-chat.
    
    One of my best womenfriends once shouted out in a group of people,
    after I had made some comment, "Lorna loves men!"  I remember at
    the time thinking, I do?  Do I?  Why did she say that?  Then I discover
    in this conference that I may hate men.  Labels are so confusing!
     
    Lorna
    
    P.S.  How independant can someone be if they feel compelled to join
    an organization that proclaims, I'm Goddamned Independant!?  I like
    to think I'm too independant to need to join clubs.
    
    

    I have to agree with .3.  Do labels really matter?  If I say I'm
    not a feminist, does that mean that everyone is going to agree?
    No, they'll think what they want to think, and they'll label me
    as THEY see fit.  If I don't like the label, I can always tell myself
    that they don't know the real me ;-)
    

    re: .6 Bravo, Lorna!  (I'm still giggling...but remember, feminists
    don't have a sense of humor. :-) )
    
    Although, actually, I need and thrive on labels.  Especially the
    ones that say "Machine wash.  Tumble dry low."  (None of that
    "Handwash only" time-sink stuff for me!)
    
    Do feminist men get accused of man-hating?  woman-hating?
    Or is it non-feminist men that get accused of woman-hating?
    I've been puzzled about why and when women get accused of man-hating
    ever since I dropped a sarcastic comment into net.women and was
    accused by a good friend, who really, well, I thought knew a good
    deal about my social life.  Very confusing.  Maybe *some* men don't
    need labels (except, watch out for those that say "Dry clean", unless
    your paycheck can handle it), but *some* men are very handy at passing
    them out.  *Some* women too.

    I'm not sure it's funny or not --
    
    But a few days back, a good friend of mine, who knows me pretty well,
    told me in deep concern for my well-being that she thinks my husband
    doesn't support me enough emotionally -- he lets me go my own way
    without trying to interfere in my career decisions . . .
    
    She thinks he's not liberated enough to understand how much help
    I need in decisions like this . . . 
    
    Sigh.  
    
    --bonnie 

    Getting back to the base note and title of this note, "Men Don't
    Need Labels" (wait, I'm just zipping up my flame retardent suit!),
    I feel your remark, "Men don't need labels" to be a bit presumptive.
    It feels to me like a judgement about how women are trying to learn
    about ourselves by trying on and taking off different labels (men
    are better than women because they don't need labels).  Am I reading
    incorrectly between the lines?  I hope so.
    
    I think it is clearly evident that all people "need" labels.  People
    use labels as a way of claiming their identity.  For example, I
    take the label feminist because I identify as a strong and capable
    woman.  I add the adjective radical to describe the intensity of
    my feelings.  With these words I make a statement about who I am
    and who I want to become.
    
    The problem comes in when *I* try to apply that label to someone else.
    Another woman may believe in some of the things that I do but not
    all.  So applying the same label to her would not be right, unless
    she chose it herself.  Some people have the added frustration of
    wanting to take only part of a label (I like the stuff in the middle
    but do I have to take the cookie part too??!).  
    
    What do other people think?
    
    Melanie
    

    
    Re .6   There was no one or myself that felt compelled to join 
            or form anything, it just happened. The funny part 
            about it was how it spread. But then again it was the late
            60's and everyone was going and thinking different directions.

    re: Labels ......... ?
    
    I am particularly distressed with the use of labels as a panacea
    for reasoning. I am distressed because *I* have been labeled unjustly
    from time-to-time, and *people* chose to accept the "label" rather
    than *make up their own mind* about the person.
    
    When my sons were in Grammar school, they were labeled with things
    like "HYperactive","Emotioanlly Disturbed","Problem children", etc.
    
   Some people LIKE labels attached to themselves, because it give the
    illusion of being *something* without making any effort; labels
    like "Christian","Heathen","Black","Kike","Spic","Woman","Man" ..
    
    Once a "label" is attached, it becomes part of the person whether
    or not they like it.
    
    True, labels do serve as an aid to understanding something about
    the person to whom the label is attached - but it seems that so
    few people understand  that concept - and for these such people
    ist easier to grab the label and assume its correct.
    
    Perhaps it would be more rational to include with each person a
    "composite description" -
    Pensive 5%
    Feminist attitudes 6%
    Sexist attitudes 12%
    Compassionate 2%
    Bully 34%
    Jerk 99%
    
    etc
    
    Can a person have conflicting attitudes ? Depending on the time
    of the month; time of day; emotional state; etc ? Sure.
    
    .bob.