Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Thanks for reposting this, Maggie.  It must be really scary for
    you to look at those early memories on your own, and I'm especially
    moved by your willingness to talk about that experience here.  I
    am not an incest survivor, but I've taken some classes in family
    violence.  I have learned that sexual abuse of children by someone
    they know and trust is very common, and that its effects are long
    lasting and painful.  Another thing that I've learned is that more
    young males are sexually abused than we previously realized.  Some 
    of the current research suggests that the numbers of males and females
    may in fact be equal.  Thanks for posting the support information.
    I'd be interested in hearing more about what's available for male
    incest survivors.  
    
    						Justine

    	Maggie, you have my admiration as well for being able to face
    	this issue openly and discuss it with us.  As one who has had
    	first hand knowledge of domestic violence (from the victim's
    	side), I can empathize with how difficult it must have been
    	for you to get to the point where you could acknowledge it and
    	interact with support groups.
    
    	You have my best wishes and I will watch for future notes about
    	this topic.  I fear that the numbers of victims (if we ever
    	really acquire accurate statistics) will surprise many of us.
	
    							Suzanne... ;-)

    I have been unable to locate information on the Men's survivor group.
    I'll continue to look through the information I have.  I believe
    it meets at one of the major hospitals..does anyone else have better
    information of this?
    
    I've been doing some reading lately and can mention some early warning
    signs of being a survivor.  When the memories are coming back but
    are not clear.  This is not a complete list, but somethings to
    look for, to help an SO deal with accepting memories:
    
       Night terrors, trouble sleeping.  Crying in your sleep. Startling
       yourself awake.  Inability to sleep with your SO. Inability to
       respond sexually.  Fear of touching.  
    
    The above is just a partial list, and does not necessarily indicate
    Incest history or Sexual Abuse history.  If you feel your SO falls
    into this category, seek help for yourself.  Try and talk about
    the issue.  Do force them, just try and be there.  Lover's of
    survivor's have support groups as well. I'll post that information
    here when I get it.
    
    Remember that memories that are pre verbal, are often remembered
    as over powering feelings.  When a child can not articulate what
    is happening to them, they do remember the feeling part of that
    experience.  There is a lot of fear, and self-loathing when one
    begins to accept the reality of abuse.  We often ask ourselves,"was
    it my fault."  Nothing you did, or could have tried to control was
    responsible for the abuse you survived.  Some adult or older child
    victimized you, try not to victimize yourself.   

    Maggie,  Thank's for your note.  I think a lot of us have been affected
    by this kind of terror...what are the stats??? - 1 out of 3 women
    are survivors?  That's counting those who can remember this sort
    of dis-membering.  When's it going to stop??  Probably, when we
    eliminate female-hating.

                      -<some women close to me>-
    
    My Mother: her dad was a shrink.  she was one of 5 daughters.  He
    regularly abused each of them sexually as their bodies began to
    mature.  It seems as he went on, he got bolder; my mom was the middle
    and says no penetration happened, the youngest said there was, the
    oldest says it was all fatherly caresses.  They did not share this
    with each other 'till he died, feeling that they were completely
    isolated and filthy.  Their mother became an alchoholic -- mom says
    she thinks her mom knew and drank to hide from it.  They are all
    messed up in their own ways: the second youngest loves men but is
    unable to orgasm if a man is near, in the same room -- she deals
    with the guilt of having been turned-on by it somewhat.  Sometimes
    little girls like the extra attention they get and feel [reinforced
    by daddy-dear] that they are special.  They get messages about how
    dirty it is [and indeed it is, but it is not explained to little
    girls that their DADDY is being dirty, and they are AOK nice kid]
    and feely doubly dirty.  God, I think about them and it blows my
    mind the irreparable damage that man wrought.  What's worst is that
    he was a shrink; he KNEW what a horrible thing he was doing to his
    girls.
    
    Close friend: regularly raped by her step-brother at the age of
    ~4.  When he died (she was 7-8) she was HAPPY!!!  She still is...
    I can't describe the vehemence in her voice when she says how happy...
     Just a little girl and all that hatred.
    
    My heart breaks...
    
  

    Thank you, Maggie, so much for this note.
    
    It always amazes me when people admit to their experiences with
    this.  It happened to me, too, and up until now I have only told
    3 other people.  But I realize now that by sharing, it helps ease
    my pain, and maybe someone else's.
    
    I thought for years and years it happened because it was MY fault;
    that I did something to bring it on myself (I was 5).  I felt guilty
    all my life about it, until recently when I got some help.  Now
    I understand that I was indeed a victim, and didn't ask for it to
    happen to me.  I also understand now why sex and anger were always
    together for me.
    
    Any more info on "help" for this is appreciated.  This note, however,
    has already done so much good.  Thank you for the courage to raise
    it.  
    
    Let's help each other if we can.
    
    Jane

    	There was an article in the Boston Globe last week concerning
    a family in Brockton, MA where the husband had two children by his
    daughter.  He and his daughter's step-mother sexually abused the
    children, he alone with the older every Monday, and together with
    the younger every Wednesday.  The bastard judge sentenced them to
    probation.  At least he took the children out of the house!
    
    Douglas

    re: .7 (?)
    
    daycare centers have been taking a bum rap lately when it comes
    to incest, ever since that whatever-it-was nursery school with the
    teacher named "Tookie" was prosecuted and found guilty - also the
    "child porn ring" in wherever-it-was (california?) who would take
    the children out during the day, photograph them doing god-knows-what,
    and then return them in time to be picked up by their parents. 
    Daycare centers' insurance has just about quintupled in the last
    few years - and with some just cause.  Often loving, giving teachers
    with children of their own are falsely accused of child abuse, physical
    or sexual.  However, it's hard for some parents to understand why 
    johnny got a light tap on the tush because he was behaving violently, 
    or not paying attention in a dangerous situation (i.e. crossing the 
    street).  Of course, not many courts have addressed emotional abuse
    and neglect (at home or at a daycare/school institution) and the 
    trouble that can cause.  Another function daycare centers are
    addressing is recognizing children who have been abused outside
    the school, and bringing this to the attention of certain authorities.
      Then there are the children who hear about
    incest/molestation and either fabricate or embellish stories of
    their own experiences.  But sometimes the child is telling the truth,
    and steps are being taken to interview them in supportive and
    comfortable surroundings.  And the court doesn't know whether to believe
    the grownups (who know what is real from what is imaginary) or children
    (who we are constantly told do not).  Sometimes it becomes such
    an ordeal the case is dropped - some cases never make it to court
    - some are found innocent due to lack of evidence.  I sincerely
    hope more money, time, and attention is devoted to this in the near
    future.  Perhaps with Someone Else in the white house, social programs
    will flourish which go farther than current ones when it comes to
    protecting/upholding abused wives and children.  It is an ugly skeleton
    in the closet, but it must be harshly dealth with in order to end
    the conspiracy of silence which has surrounded it for so many years.

    Although I've never experienced the physical abuses mentioned in
    these responses, I am completely sympathetic with their causes.
     
    -Jody
    

    Studies i have seen [sorry, no #s. help?] state that children do not
    ever fabricate stories of molestation.  Something like 99.99% of
    the times a child reports molestation, it is true.
    
    Lee

	I don't the children fabricate the stories also.  In the case of
	the Amaralt's (sp?), how do several children conspire to set up
	the day care center owners?  The children's testimony wasn't
	conflicting amongst themselves.  I couldn't imagine children
	plotting something to set up adults in this kind of a sceneraio.


						JimMcK

I think the media had something to do with the thought they might have 
fabricated some of the stories.

When Gerald Amirault was on trial.  They played tapes of some of the kid's 
testimony.  They all had said the same events happening but frequently used 
different words when describing body parts, like "bumm", "behind", "rear", 
etc.

When the other two were on trial, all I had heard was the kids using the 
same words in the same ways.  Like they were coached a little too much.

I don't doubt for a minute that these people are guilty, but I think people 
who are working to get the stories out of kids should be careful that they 
don't do their job TOO well.  It could have some disasterous results.

    Often when subjects like sexual abuse and incest start to come out
    of the closet, there is a tendency for the media to spread more heat
    than light on these subjects.  When people address abuse that takes
    place outside of the home, like childcare situations, the media
    has a field day.  When parents in custody cases bring in accusations
    of sexual abuse, the media has a field day.
    
    What the media seems to forget that is that the childs rights, and
    welfare are the only issues of importance.  To undercut the childrens
    experiences, as being fantasy, or make believe, makes criminal and
    social solutions almost impossible.  Children do not make up stories
    that are sexually explicit.  More child psychologist are beginning
    to get training in these areas.  My SO has been involved in seminars
    for professional social workers, and mental heath care providers
    and been alarmed by the mass ignorance of these subjects.  There
    is a definate time lag for awareness, education, treatment in the
    psych community, and social community.
    
    The first program for Incest and Sexual Abuse survivors was started
    by a good friend of mine in San Jose California, in 1975.  Most
    people are just now trying to deal with the social, and psychological
    raminfications of what Incest and Sexual abuse is.
    
    There are many myths about Incest, I will attempt in the future
    to point them out, and literature and studies (specifics) that dispell
    them.
    
    >Warning<FLAME-ON>
    
    Here are some of the best known ones:
    
    Gay men are the largest group of abusers.
    
    NOT TRUE, MOST ABUSERS ARE BETWEEN THE AGES OF 15 AND 45, PREDOMINATELY
    HETEROSEXUAL.
    
    Only poor people abuse their children sexually.
    
    NOT TRUE, INCEST ABUSERS ARE FROM EVERY CLASS, RACE AND SOCIAL STRATA.
    
    The Lolita Myth: Little girls are sexy, and want to love their daddy
    sexually.
    
    NOT TRUE, MYTH TO PROMOTE OR MAKE ACCEPTABLE UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR.
    
    <FLAME OFF>
    
    I'll cite specific support data to debunk these myths, in a followup
    note.  I don't have my literature with me a work.
    
    MaggieT

Warning: personal stuff follows.  If you feel you would be prejudiced
by this, then please hit Next Unseen.
    
    
I was 11, maybe 10.  My mother was in graduate school one night a week, 
and my father would molest me then.  When my mother said she was thinking
of taking classes 2 nights a week, I begged her not to, but she did.  
She did not understand why I was making such a fuss.

It is hard now.  I lived in terror for several years until my parents divorced
when I was 17.  Even after I went to college I was fearful, but only when
I had to visit him.  He once put his arm around me and I flew away.  I was
terrified he would get sexual again.

I was very close to his mother, and his aunts, and I never told them what he 
did to me.  I still have not told the 2 who are living.  They always ask how
he is, and when I saw him last.  It was hardest when my grandma was alive.
I loved her dearly, and I had to pretend that I loved him, because I did not
want to hurt her.  She had had so much pain in her life, and all she lived for
was me, and her only child (my father), but mostly me.

Now I still have to deal with him.  When my grandfather died in January, he and 
I were the beneficiaries.  Same thing when one of the aunts died in 1981.
He and I have to work together to dispose of the possessions, pay the expenses, 
etc.  We get along okay, for the most part.  However, the longer I spend around
him, the more uncomfortable I become, and when I was there for the funeral
(staying at his home with my SO to save money) then I had a terrible nightmare 
the last night.  I have had other nightmares about him.

I have been to 2 different therapists.  I will need to see another, but my 
SO is in therapy right now (not for incest) and I do not want both of us going
through therapy at the same time.  I have had otherwise pretty good 
relationships with men, but still have problems occasionally dealing with men
who are about 30 years older than myself.  Men my own age don't affect me.
The hardest thing is what to do today.  Part of me just wants to cut off all
contact with my father.  Part of me wants his inheritance :-) (I'm an only 
child).  Part of me would feel guilty because the relatives would want to know
why I never have contact with him, and I would not know whether or not to tell
them.  I would get terribly angry with them if they took "his side".

Sorry for the long note.
                            Carol
    

    He said that he needed a woman because my mother was in the hospital
    and unavailable.  
    
    And that it would not be wrong if it was his daughter...and we didn't
    have to do 'it' we could do something...
    
    We didn't do anything because I was an adult at the time...but it
    seemed like he was abusing the little girl in me...

    re: .16
    
    That is similar to what happened to a lesbian friend of mine:
    Her father offered to "cure" her (by sleeping with her).
    It deeply hurt her relationship with him, and it hurt my relationship
    with him, too.
    
              Carol

    For .15:
    
    Carol,
    
    Seeing a therapist is the BEST thing you can do for yourself.
    Confronting the actual people involved is difficult, because they
    haven't had your experiences.  With a good therapist, you can face
    those memories, express any and all feelings about them and about
    the people involved, and exorcise them.  You don't forget, but you
    do find a way to live with it, and put it behind you.  
    
    Your therapist can provide a safe environment where all your feelings
    can come out safely.  You don't need to go through this with the
    actual people.  As far as dealing with your father, the therapist
    can help you there, too. 
    
    I speak from experience, Carol, and THIS WORKS.  Don't worry about
    both you and your SO going thru therapy at the same time.  It can
    actually give new depth to the relationship.  
    
    The best of luck to you.
    
    Jane

    Is there a cycle of abuse, of people-families that abuse their children
    sexually?
    
    Literature suggest, see Ellen Bass's book.  That Incest and Sexual
    abuse is cyclical phenomena.  Adults who abuse their children, have
    been victims of sexual abuse themselves at the hands of their parents.
             
    The only way to break the cycle, is to break the silence.  All parties
    should be involved in family therapy.  That would be the ideal
    situation.
    
    Life is not ideal.  There are treatment programs for the survivors,
    the abusers and their So's and families. 
    
    We start with a single step.  Incest and its social ramifications
    and family problems have been with us for generations.  We can only
    deal with these problems when we deal with ourselves.  I am not
    advocating that all men and women who are survivors come out of
    the closet.  You can only do what you can do.  Treat yourself gently,
    seek therapy if you can.  If you can't try to be good to yourself
    and know that you are not alone.
    
    Incest and Sexual abuse victims have a right to seek help, or not
    as they choose.
     
    I thank the Goddess for my friends, my lover, my therapist, and
    myself for having the need and subsequent courage to trust.  My
    need to love has helped to overcome the dread I've felt about intimacy,
    and closeness.
    
    My needs and wants direct my path to be out about who I am.  I cannot
    judge others.  I'm proud of who I am, who I am becoming.  I learn
    each day that we are unique.  
    
    As survivors we owe ourselves, gentleness and trust.  Your memories
    are hard to accept, yes.  They are real, they make you hurt.  They
    can scare the H*ll out of you.  Believing what our memories show
    us is so hard, it sometimes feels impossible.  Believe, and validate
    to yourself what you can.  Keep the pace of what you can accept,
    as fast or as slow as you need to.  There is no path to follow,
    we each of us forges our own.  
    
    There are times when in the present day, when my anger and rage is so
    close to the surface, that I lash out to those around me that only
    want to love me and help.  When I see that I am enraged out of
    proportion to what in the present is creating problems for me, it
    helps to remember that something is transfering from the past into
    the present.  When I over react to an event in my present day, some
    part of the little girl in me is feeling vunerable.  I need to see
    what is tranferring and remind myself, that while the things I'm
    feeling are part of my life today, some part from then is interfering
    with my perceptions, in the presnt day.  I try to make the material
    that is transferring part of my mind in this present reality. 
    
    It's hard to learn and practice dealing with tranferred feelings.
     Its the only way I know of that helps me stop victimizing myself.
    Not everything in this world is my fault, I can't fix it.  I can
    only deal with what I have stregnth for.
    
    <a bit long winded there>
    
    Basic message: Treat yourself with love.

    re: .10 
    
    I don't believe children make up stories about being sexually abused.
    I do believe they can be displaced.  A case in point:
    
    The father of a friend of mine is currently institutionalized for
    a crime I believe he did not commit.  He and his wife had several
    adopted children.  One boy (about 6 years old) _had_ been abused
    in more than one previous foster home, and had some degree of mental
    retardation as well.  This child reported that "daddy" had abused
    him.  My feeling after talking to the people involved, is that to
    this child, all his "daddies" (ie; the previous foster parents)
    were the same "daddy" in his mind.  I don't doubt in the least
    that this child was molested.  I don't believe he was molested by
    the man who is serving time for his molestation.  He did learn that he
    would be removed from any home he claimed to be molested in, and
    used it (even prior to this situation) when he didn't like his
    situation.   It was a very complex situation.  I know the
    (incarcerated) man's sons well enough to talk with them in great
    detail about their childhood.  I am pretty well sure neither of them
    were ever molested.  Why is this man locked up?  It came out in
    court that he has been a practicing homosexual!  Case closed.  Now
    I know that this man likes *men*, not children.  But this did not
    influence the court decision.  
    
     	I try to keep tabs on the situation, and I hope the child gets
    plenty of therapy.  He is a very disturbed child as a result of his
    prior molestation.  I would hate to see another innocent "daddy" go to
    jail for the horrible thing someone else did to this child.  But
    please, *consider* that not all people accused of child molesting are
    guilty of it!  Sexual abuse  is a heinious crime, and should be
    punished as such.  Sex offenders are badly treated in prisons and
    often subject to gang rape and abuse from other prisoners.  If the
    person is guilty, so be it.  But for an innocent per4son to be jailed
    and subjected to such treatment...I fear for my friend's father.
    
    I do not want to give the appearance of trivializing sexual abuse.
    I am also an abuse survivor, and I *know* the kind of pain that
    such abuse imparts.  I have been in therapy for several years now.
    Incidently, my husband has also been in therapy during the time
    that I've known him.  There is really no trouble involved with you
    being in therapy as the same time as your SO. (At least as long
    as you have different therapists ;-)).  So go for!  It will do you
    all the good in the world!  I posted my ideas on choosing a therapist
    in the Woman's Therapy note (12.10?), take a look, choosing the
    right therapist for you can be the most important thing you do in
    your life!
    
    Rita
    

    Here is some information I promised earlier.  There is a psychologist
    who works with men only around issues of incest and sexual abuse.
    
    Mike Lew., M.Ed.
    Co-Director
    The Next Step Counseling
    Newton,MA.

    Well, I've been read only on this note for too long now.  Thanks
    Margaret, for doing what I had wanted to do for a long time.  We
    really need a space to talk about this issue.
    
    I work as a Rape Crisis Counselor at the Boston Area Rape Crisis
    Center.  Incest Resources, Inc. (as already mentioned earlier) provides
    a number of resource sharing services as well as a monthly drop-in
    discussion for women with incest histories.  The Rape Crisis
    Center takes Incest Resources' telephone calls and can provide
    information and referrals.  Over the past year or two, the number
    of incest-related calls has increased dramatically.
    
    Listed below are some indicators of child abuse (not only incest):
    
    	. history of alcohol/drug abuse
    	. history of sexual victimization
    	. history of self-inflicted injury
    	. history of suicide attempts
    	. flashbacks to frightening scenes; nightmares, sleeplessness,
    	  sleepwalking
    	. high anxiety (fear); especially of people, of being trapped
    	  or attacked, of someone coming into a room
    	. feelings of grief and anger
    	. feelings of pain/discomfort or stimulation in sexual areas
    	. vomiting--gagging (often associated with oral rape)/nausea
    	  /stomach pains/anorexia nervosa
    	. loss of memory about large part of childhood
    	. chronic feelings of illness that are medically undiagnosable
    
    The following are a list of patterns of behavior and thought that
    characterize incest survivors.  The use of the word "pattern" describes
    a behavior or thought which is habitualized, and which develops
    as a result of a person's being hurt emotionally and/or physically.
    It is these patterns which get in the way of a person's functioning
    and abilities.
    
    Every pattern has it's polar opposite.  People may exhibit one end
    or the other or may swing from one end to the other.  Most of the
    patterns have a slash to divide the two patterns.  However, letters
    d. and e. do not include one end of the pattern.  This is because
    we are talking about cues for women, and, due to the socialization
    process, women do not tend to exhibit the opposite of these two
    patterns.  Men, who have been abused, may exhibit these patterns
    as well as others.  (I am making this distinction because I have
    worked with women much more that I have with men and therefore know
    more about women.)
    
    a.  Feels "bad" or "no good" about themselves; "lower than the lowest"
        / feels superior to, better than anyone else
    
    b.  Distrustful of everyone /
    	trustful of everyone without being able to make distinctions
    
    c.	Powerless, victimized in life--difficulty saying "no" /
    	rigidly controlling of others and events; feeling they may have
    	special or magical powers
    
    d.	Acting responsibly (overly), nice (overly), taking the
    	responsibility and blame for whatever
    
    e.	Taking care of others and not getting own needs met
    
    f.	Despairing ("there is no help", "no one cares", "no one notices",
    	"no one can think about me") /
    	everything is "fine", "nice", "super", "marvelous", "O.K."
    
    g.	Is isolated /
    	always in others' company
    
    h.	Wants nothing to do with sex or physical touch /
    	participates frequently in sexual activity without being able
    	to make rational choices in the area.  Along the same lines:
    	feels ugly/femme fatale; dresses to hide her body/dresses to
    	reveal her body.
    
    i.	Feeling "different from others", "not human", "God put me on
    	the wrong planet" /
    	feeling, living in a patterned over-"normalcy".
    
    j.	Difficulty in exercising /
    	exercising compulsively
    
    Please remember that these are only indications of abuse.  In other
    words, most survivors exhibit one or more of these patterns.  However,
    exhibiting one or more of these patterns does not mean a person
    IS a survivor.
    
    Also, I think it is very important to remember that these patterns
    have acted as armor for the survivor.  We need to honor and appreciate
    the different ways we have survived.  We also need to let go of
    those defenses that are now causing us pain and difficulty. 
    
    (Note:  These cues were compiled by Susan Lees of Incest Resources,
    Inc.)
    
    Reference books:  
    
    	The Secret Trauma by Diana Russell, published in 1986 - this
    is the most recent study of incest.  This is also the ONLY
    STATISTICALLY SOUND STUDY EVER DONE ON INCEST.  I recommend it highly.
    
    	Kiss Daddy Goodnight - a true "case" history done in novel form
    
    	Voices in the Night - anthology of poems, verse, short stories
    written by survivors.  Very emotional; difficult to read in one
    sitting.
    
    	I Never Told Anyone - similar and equally moving as Voices in
    the Night.
    
    	Incest Resources has a library of over 15 articles that they
    have compiled.  It's good reading.
    
    In survivorship and healing,
    
    Melanie

    Gee, I got so involved in writing out my list that I forgot some
    of the things I'd wanted to mention.
    
    First, the Incest Resources drop-in is the third Thursday of each
    month (July and August are vacation time for them thought so there
    is no group this month and next).
    
    Re: .9
    
    I agree that sometimes innocent people are persecuted (too strong?),
    in this area, however, we are not talking about
    
    >... johnny got a light tap on the tush because he was behaving
    >violently or not paying attention in a dangerous situation...
    
    I do not believe in hitting a child (or in light tapping) for
    any reason.  I know, however that the majority of people would
    disagree with me, but we are not talking about "a light tap", we are
    talking about abuse.  None of the children I've heard about in this
    kind of situation described a "light tap" on the bottom - they
    described abuse.
    
    Also,
    
    >Then there are the children who hear about incest/molestation and
    >either fabricate or embellish stories of their own experiences. 
    >But sometimes the child is telling the truth, ... and the court
    >doesn't know whether to believe the grownups (who know what is
    >real from what is imaginary) or children (who we are constantly
    >told do not).
    
    I hear your confusion.  It is so hard to believe that people, that
    PARENTS, could do these things to children.  It is easier to not
    believe the children than to face the facts about what adults do
    to children.  The betrayal is so complete and devastating.
    
    AND, given the above, there is all the more reason to believe the
    children.  Children do not lie about these things.  They do not
    have a basis on which to make up this kind of a lie.  Think about
    what it means for a child to tell on her/his caretaker.  This action
    would not get them loving attention, nor would it solve their problems
    about not being able to stay up for their favorite TV show.  
    
    Listen to what your heart tells you.  As much as we do not want to
    believe it, these things do happen.  We cannot turn our backs any
    longer to these children or ourselves.  We must take responsibility as
    the adults these children are looking to for love, understanding,
    safety, etc.
    
    re: .20
    
    In your note you make an important point.  Physically, emotionally
    and intellectually challenged children are especially vulnerable
    to sexual abuse.  It is, as you can imagine, even more difficult
    to find reliable statistics on these "silent" children (silent because
    they have even less resources than children who are not challenged).
    
    Melanie
    

    
    
    My children are victims of sexual assault.   They were 3 1/2 and
    2 when the instances occurred.   They are 11 1/2 and 10 now.  I
    often wonder how what happened will affect them as adults.  They
    seem to be well adjusted.   I have spent alot of time over the years
    letting them "talk" it out.    After I became aware of the situation
    I testified in court against this person.   I remember the all
    encompasing rage I felt when this person who had assaulted my children
    got probation.   
    
    I felt soooo... guilty for so long for having hired this person as a
    babysitter.   For allowing this person to become a friend of the
    family.   For the first year after my children were assaulted I
    couldn't look them in the face without feeling guilty.  At the time
    there were no support services for the children or for myself.
    
    It seems to me that it is not only the victim that suffers but also
    the non-abusing parent also.  
    
    Interesting thing is that this year in the school system, my children
    attend they spent some time talking about good touching bad touching
    and telling.   My oldest piped up and discussed that a babysitter
    had assaulted her and that her mommy went to court to send him to
    jail.  I felt good that she seems comfortable enough to talk about
    it in public.   
    
    My question is am I doing enough???   I want both my children to
    happy, healthy adults.   I can't change what happen in the past.
    But I do want to do anything I can to help them grow inspite of
    the situation.
     

    <-1
    
    You have made several excellent points.  The parent's of children
    can suffer from the abuse, especially in this instance.  There was
    no way for you to know the babysitter would violate your children
    and your trust.  It's hard not to feel quilty, but its not your
    fault.  If your life were DEJAVU notes you might have had a crystal
    ball.  Instead you have a real life situation.
    
    Are you doing enough?   It sounds like it to me.  I'm no expert.
     If you still feel concerns and want to see that the children are
    given every opportunity to be healthy..perhaps a child psychologist
    could do an evaluation for all of you.  I'de only recommend this
    it the children begin to display adjustment problems. The fact the
    your children have a concerned and loving parent is a key balancing
    point.
    
    
    Good luck..I know your working hard.
    
    MaggieT
    

    You sound like you are doing great.  I wish that I had had that
    support.  When I tried to talk about it to a therapist at age 18,
    I shook when speaking of it, both inside and out.  Now I only shake
    a little.  I'm glad your children are doing so well.  It is important
    that they realize that they are not to blame and it is not something
    to be ashamed of (so MANY people have been through it).
    
                Carol

    Re:  .24
    
    One of the reasons I advocate involving the criminal justice system
    (even though most other professionals feel reluctant to) is because
    of the message it invariably gives - to everyone.  When the justice
    system is involved, you are telling the perpetrator that he/she
    cannot get away with sexually abusing children.  AND, MOST IMPORTANTLY,
    YOU ARE TELLING THE CHILD THAT THEY ARE WORTHWHILE ENOUGH TO NOT
    BE SEXUALLY ABUSED.  (Yes, I did mean to raise my voice.)
    
    Many people say that after all the child has been through, shouldn't
    we just let them alone and not drag the whole thing out.  My response
    is unquivocally, NO!  To push the problem under the rug sends a message
    to the child that they have done something wrong; that it was somehow
    their fault.  Besides, the abuse was hard too, and the child survived
    - we need to assure these children that we believe in them - and
    we need to support them in fighting the perpetrator.  A well supported
    child (supported by the family and by a good therapist) who has endured
    severe abuse and goes through a court hearing will fare much better
    than a child who receives no support and does not go through the court
    proceedings.
    
    Taking a pro-legal stance on child abuse also makes a powerful
    political statement.  If we think about why child abuse happens
    (patriarchial viewing of children, especially female children, as property
    and a general woman-hating theme throughout our society) it then
    becomes important to begin changing the value structure of our society.
    One important way to do this is through our legal system.  It sends
    a message to all of the world that child abuse is definitely not
    ok.
    
    I think that your response to your children's molestation will be one
    of the most important things you could do to help them.  They will
    know that their mother stood up for them.  Your oldest already seems
    to have incorporated a sense of pride in herself.  She obviously
    felt good enough about herself to talk about her abuse.  That is
    one of the first steps many survivors take toward healing.
    
    If, and when, they are ready, you might consider putting them into
    a group for survivors.  I seen this done with children as young
    as 9.  It should, of course, be thought about very carefully before
    deciding, and, of course, the children should make the final decision
    about it.  It just might be one of the options you could offer to
    them.  (Groups can be very helpful to a child who might want to
    talk about what happened, but may be too shy or feeling too guilty
    to talk to an authority figure about it.  Talking with other girls or
    boys who have been abused can make it easier to get the feelings
    out.)
    
    Places to look into about groups include your school system, local
    hospitals and clinics.
    
    
    Melanie

Maggie,

I'm a fairly regular reader of the womannotes conference and I was moved
by your note on child sexual abuse.  While I myself am not a victim, my
wife is.  She has been attending a therapy group and has found it very
rewarding.  I wanted to offer it to the conference, but also wanted to
preserve my wife's anonymity, so I hope you'll forgive my sending this
note to you rather than entering directly into the conference.  

The group she attends is in Westford, Ma. and is directed by a woman 
named Shari Bennett.  If you or anyone in the conference wishes, I can 
try to get more info.

Wishing you continued strength and courage,

    <--(.28)
       
    In case the foregoing confused anyone else as much as it did me
    on first reading, it is the text of a mail message sent to MaggieT,
    suitably edited to preserve the writer's anonymity.  It isn't MaggieT
    writing to herself, me, or any other namesake :-)
                           
    						=maggie

    This may be getting off the subject but:
    
    I have a question for those of you who's husband or wife sexually 
    abused your children.  Did you stick by your mate and help him/her
    go through counseling or did you leave him/her for what he/she did?
    
    A friend once asked when we discussed child molestors what I would
    do if I found out that my husband was abusing my child.  The initial
    reaction was to murder him with my own hands.  Then I thought about
    it and decided maybe it would be better to divorce him, financially
    ruin him, then have someone periodically beat the hell out of him
    for the rest of his life.  Obviously these two things wouldn't help
    anything except the release of my anger.  Maybe it would be better
    to seek counseling and 'get him back to normal' so it never happens
    again and thereby not leave my child without a father.  But I really
    can't say what I'd do, in anger or reason.
    
    If you don't want to answer here, please send me a letter.  I would
    like to know in case it ever happended to me or someone I know (not
    that I am planning on it).  All replies will be deleted once read.
    

    We have a funny uncle in our family.  And I had a funny father.
    
    What do you do?  I don't know what is right.  I don't know why they
    do it?  And I don't know what I should do about it!  Sometimes I
    want to scream when either my Mother or my Aunt talks about their
    marriage as compared to mine.
    
    I think my complacency comes from the fact that none of the incidents
    were severe enough to warrant action.  It is also interesting that
    my daughters and I both handled the situation in the same way. 
    We avoided situations where the action would occur.  And we told
    no one.  I wish the girls could have told me when they were younger,
    I know I would have addressed the issue with my uncle.
    
    As women and mothers I think we have to listen to our children and
    believe them.  We have to be ready for the information.  And it
    is good to figure out what we would do.
    
    I do feel that a person who molests children has a problem so I
    would react in a way that recognized that.  But I would do whatever
    necessary to insure that it did not reoccur.  I would divorce my
    husband.  I would support his counseling but I would not give him
    the opportunity to do it again. 
    
    I think the issue is when do we initiate a criminal action.  If
    the funny uncles crime was to sit little girls in his lap, rub their
    backs and get an erection I would not institute criminal action.
    
    To me that is the least serious and the most serious would be actual
    intercourse with the child.  
    
    The point I am trying to make is it seems like a lot of us have
    coped with this problem generation after generation.  It is in the
    open now, and I tend to feel that there is some abnormal sexual
    activity that we can cope with within the family and some that requires
    intervention (divorce or criminal action).
    
    And last but not least is perception.  We need to be very careful
    about our perception of abnormal behavior and intent.  A man or
    woman playing with their child could unintentionally touch the child's
    genitals and be considered a child molester.
    
    It seems that child molesting has been overdone in some cases and
    underdone in others.  
    

    
    I think it is very difficult to decide what to do once you know
    that your husband/other family member has abused your child.
    Definitely steps need to be taken to ensure that it doesn't happen
    again and to help the child, perpetrator and family deal honestly
    and supportively with the event.  The question remains, however,
    "What should I do??"
    
    Some women will choose to support their child (and themselves) by
    divorcing the father.  Others will decide to restrict access to
    the child until therapy and resolution occurs.  Still others will
    initiate legal proceedings to force the perpetrator into getting
    help.  I support each of the actions.  The message I would like
    to send to the perpetrator is, "Either you get help, or you do not
    have access to this child or any other child, ever."  Painful as
    this might be, it is still less painful than allowing the abuse
    to continue.  (And, of course, some women cannot choose to support
    their child or themselves.  In fact the majority of women have not,
    in the past, supported their children.  This is changing as women's
    options and alternatives broaden.)
    
    Re -1
    
    The idea that there is abuse and then there is *ABUSE* is a common
    myth.  The horror involved in child sexual abuse is not the sexual
    component at all; it is the betrayal and loss of control that is
    inevitable when an adult abuses the power they have over a child.
    
    Many abuse survivors remember feeling physical pleasure (at times)
    in response to the actions of the abuser.  Later we tend to blame
    ourselves and feel that our bodies betrayed us by responding when
    our hearts and minds hated what was happening.  One of the things
    I've learned is that everyone's bodies will respond when touched--it's
    a biological fact (like when male babies get erections when cold
    air touches their penises).  
    
    I've spoken with many survivors as friend, rape crisis counselor,
    and just survivor to survivor.  One of the things we tend to do
    is minimize the abuse.  Sometimes it is easier to deny/minimize
    what happened than to admit how much it has hurt us.  One of the
    ways we do this is to compare our hurts with others.  
    
    	"Well, she went through so much more than I did."  
    
    	"My father never penetrated me so I guess no harm was done."  
    
    	"My father just touched me and it was only once."  
    
    	"My father never touched me, not really.  He would just stare 
    	at me all the time and look at me through the keyhole in my door 
    	when I was dressing."
    
    Certainly women who were physically brutalized need to also deal
    with the different element of physical abuse, but the sexual abuse,
    whether it was more severe or less, is still painfully devastating.
    We need to acknowledge and validate the experiences of women who
    were "only molested."  They too were abused and violated.  Afterall,
    how can we tell women that their experience wasn't TOO bad.  If
    some Jews in Germany were forced to watch their families die cruelly
    and some weren't, how can we choose which person's experience was
    worse?  And what would it matter anyway (except to deny the experience
    and serve as a red herring to divert the blame from the perpetrators
    to the victims)?
    
    Yours in healing,
    
    Melanie

    RE .32	
    
    If in anger you hit an individual and it does not result in death
    the crime would be assault.  If you hit a person and death resulted
    it might be manslaughter or murder.
    
    My question is not one of the severity of the abuse as it relates
    to the victim.  I want to know at what point does the action become
    a criminal act?  
    
    There is all sorts of child abuse.  I personally feel that constant
    screaming at a child is as devasting on a child's character as some
    forms of sexual abuse.
    
    I sincerely believe that we should be judged by how we manage our
    sexuality.  It is possible for a caring person to have sexual thoughts
    and a sexual reaction without acting it out.
    
    I also strongly believe that interaction with all individuals is
    sexual in some way.  Very Freudian.  Our first communication is
    a yes I would like to, no I would not like to or maybe.  I reject
    immediately the same sex and children.  With men I go through a
    more complex process.
    
    I believe a mothers relationship with her sons and a fathers
    relationship with his daughters has sexual overtones.  That does
    not mean that we consider at any point in time a sexual relationship,
    it means that we relate sexually to people of the opposite sex.
     
    I would not want a man who had an erection while a young girl was
    sitting in his lap to be brought to our courts.  I think this problem
    can be addressed within the family.

     
    re: .33
    
    >>>    I would not want a man who had an erection while a young girl was
    >>>    sitting in his lap to be brought to our courts.  I think this problem
    >>>    can be addressed within the family.


    Of your last sentence, I only wish that were true.

    Carol

    re: .34
    
    This situation has happened in our family and it is a concern of
    mine.  
    
    But I cannot in my own mind reconcile what I consider the severity
    of the action against a potential criminal action.
    
    My children, although they did not tell me about it until they were
    grown, did not have any problems because of this.  I realize that
    to another youngster it could be very traumatic.
    
    From different things I have read I believe sexual attraction and
    appetite is influenced by hormones and other chemical influences
    on our mind.  It is my feeling that the designer of our bodies intended
    for adult males and adult females to engage in sexual activity.
    We have accepted that not all of us are designed the same way and
    some of us would prefer to engage in sexual activity with those
    of the same sex.
    
    I will not accept any argument that might be presented that suggests
    that it is 'normal' to have sexual activity with children.  But
    I will accept the fact that some individuals are attracted to children
    through some biological mixup and have difficulty controling that
    attraction.
    
     women our sexual attraction is not easily visableible.  Many mothers
    give their sons backrubs and if this causes any sexual reaction
    the young men would not be aware of it.  But if a father gave his
    daughter a back rub and had an erection a daughter might observe
    this activity and become traumatized.
    
    Although I have never had sexual thoughts about my sons...I do
    fantasize a lot and I am very glad that this activity does not generate
    a physical response.  
    
    I think there is some real grey area in this subject.  I would like
    to hear from the male population on this.  Have you ever had an
    erection in a situation that could be misintrepted?  Have you ever
    been stimulated, but did not even listen to your body because you
    knew in your mind that the body was mistaken?
    
     

    .34  The second to last paragraph did not say what I meant...so
         please understand.  I do not fantasize about my sons either
         I just wanted to illustrate that our (women's) sexual thoughts
         do not exhibit themselves in a physical response so therefore
         there is little grey area around whether or not we are abusing
         a child.
    
    I cannot believe the reporting that indicates that many mothers
    are accusing their ex-husband of sexually abusing their children.
    Many of these accusations come from accepted child care practices.
    When my children were little I washed their genitals until they
    were about four or five.  My daughter has taught her boys at two
    to care for their own genitals.  She wants to be sure that they
    understand that *no* one needs to do this for them for any reason.
    She is cautious because the children are in day care.  
    
    This subject matter is so sensitive...a good subject for a note
    and one that I could change my whole attitude about from the comments
    in this file.  
    

    
    I don't believe there are any easy answers about what to do if you
    find out a family member has sexually assaulted your children. 
    
    In my situation, although the person who assaulted my children was
    not related to me, he was VERY important to me......  It was very
    difficult for me to believe that he had in fact done the things
    that were said about him.   Also when I did finally believe what
    was said was true I was completely and utterly devestated.  I blamed
    myself for not somehow knowing and preventing the assaults.   It
    didn't help that society (family, friends, and the police dept)
    also blamed me for not somehow knowing.   My reactions to all of
    this was attempted suicide, deep parinoia around ALL men, and a
    deep depression that spanned many years.
    
    Based on my experience I would suggest if it happens to you or someone
    that is close to you.
    
    Seek consoling immediately for the entire family.  Confront the 
    perpertrator.  Allow the perpertrator NO more unsupervised access to
    the child without consoling help for the perpertrator.  Perscute
    if that seems appropriate.   Allow the child to talk about the incident
    as much as they need too.   Allow the Parent to talk about as much
    as they need too.   But most of all, forgive yourself and try to
    forgive the perpertrator.   For some reason when I was finally able
    to begin to forgive the assaultor of my children was when I was
    finally able to find some peace in myself.   
    
    It has been 8 years since my children were assaulted.  I am still
    a bit paranoid in regards to my children and adults that I don't
    know.   Also I suspect I am a bit overprotective of them also. 
    But we have survived.....
    
    sue

    re .32  Good note.  My heart goes out to you.
    
    I would like to echo that the problem is not necessarily how sexual
    the activity was, nor how violent, but how the child feels about
    it.  If a child is afraid to be near someone, there is usually a
    reason for it, and it may be something _all_ the adults involved
    would see as "harmless".  The fear, the self-hatred, the revulsion,
    all these do _not_ add up to "harmless", whether or not there is
    malice or sex intended by the perpetrator.
    
    And I think the hardest thing for a "molestation" victim to face
    or understand or forgive themselves for is pleasure: children
    experience pleasure at receiving "special attention", feel
    funny/horrible about the molestation itself, may have experienced
    some pleasant physical response, and feel overwhelming SHAME about
    the whole experience, including telling someone who doesn't believe
    them.
    
    While Joyce's questions are certainly valid and of concern, I would
    caution all of us not to dismiss how hard this hits the victim in
    the gut.  I am pretty sure it can hurt, bad, bad, bad, and reflecting
    back to issues that hit _my_ gut, I worry that a lot of the victims'
    feelings (which we _need_ to hear and try to understand) will not
    be expressed here, even anonymously.
    
    Lee

                                                                     
   The following response is from a member of our community who wishes
   to remain anonymous at this time.  
   
   						=maggie
   
   ==================================================================
    
   I had a 'funny' uncle.  I had a 'funny' step-father.  But none of
   this is very funny at all. 
    
   The step-father has been in my life since I was a baby.  He molested
   me between about the time I was 3 to about 6, to the best of my
   admittedly faulty recolection about that time in my life.  His
   molestation included anal intercourse.  He also physically abused all
   4 of his other children, including sexually with at least 2 of the
   boys. 
    
   The uncle was not in the same class.  He would take me, as well as
   his daughters and other neices, and other little girls, into his lap.
   I'm not even sure that he was being sexually aroused by this - but it
   was very uncomfortable.  Still, certainly not a matter for criminal
   charges. 
    
   To this day, I have a degree of difficulty dealing with men.  Up
   until I was about 20 I believed I was a lesbian, and rejected this
   for most of my teen years.  I now have a male SO who knows part of
   this story, but not all of it.  It has only been during the last
   couple of years that I could talk about this at all.  I still am
   marginally in the 'man hater' category, although I can be friends
   with, and even love, some men, but as a group my feelings toward them
   are negative.  FWIW, I like most women until given a reason to
   dislike that particular woman. 
    
   I do not want children of my own for fear of abusing them.  I have on
   a couple of instances done things to my SO that would fall under the
   abuse category.  I HATED that!  In fact, I hated it so much that I
   got psychological help ASAP.  I haven't done it since, and worked on
   some of the issues I'm describing here. 
    
   What I'm trying to say here is how it feels to the victim, the
   long-range effects, and how one 'real' molester can make things very
   uncomfortable with someone who is "just rubbing a little girl's back
   and getting an erection".  For a child who has not been hurt, it
   might not hurt her.  For another who has though, it is a different
   thing.  I was also uncomfortable being held by my other uncles who
   never did anything at all questionable.  However, my reaction to
   these innocent men could have easily been misinterpreted as being
   that they had done something to cause my reactions. 
    
   Thank you for listening. 

    re .39
    
    My heart goes out to you -- I had similar abuse happen, although
    from someone outside the family, and another time in a medical
    situation.   I also spent my childhood and teen years hating men
    until I jumped into an early marriage to try to face and solve the
    problem.  I too have had serious doubts about my ability to parent
    even though I love to spend time with the children of others.  
    
    I respect you for getting help as soon as you saw ghosts of the
    abuse creeping into your adult relationships.  I hope you find whatever
    help and healing you need to be happy and peaceful.
    
    
    Re .34,35
    
    If a girl was sitting on the lap of an adult male and he inadvertently
    got an erection, I would not consider it a criminal offense if he
    put the girl on the floor (nicely) and said "Uncle Jim has to go
    make a phone call..." or whatever.  That would be a responsible
    adult response to something unexpected.
    
    On the other hand, if he kept the girl in his lap, or continually
    encourged her to come sit in his lap for his own pleasure, I think
    that is very abusive.  I would warn the person once, and depending
    on the situation, do something to ensure that he didn't feel free
    to repeat the behavior with any female too young to protest.
    
    Holly
                                                      

    While replying to the base note in note 362 I asked a question which
    sort of got off the original question so I am answering the responses
    I received in this note because it seems to fit better here.
    
    My original question had to do with an initial lack of responses
    from male subscribers to this note (Incest, the Coming Out).  To 
    clarify, I made a simple observation that not many men had responded
    to this issue and I wondered why.
    
    Re: 362.31
    
    I am not making any judgements about why men have not responded
    as much.  I was making an observation.  I noticed that men have
    responded quite freely in other issues.  I wondered what the difference
    was in that particular note; whether it was more uncomfortable,
    etc.
    
    Re: 362.34
    
    No I was not looking to spark any flames.  I was seriously inquiring
    about an issue and did not think my inquiry would provoke people
    to flame me.  I don't really think that anyone was "flaming" me
    though - at least not at high temperatures. :-)
                                                               
    
    
    Re: 343.33
    
    To answer your question (...at what point does the action become
    a criminal act?) I don't know that I have a clear cut *moral* answer
    for you.  In other words, legally the definition may be different
    that morally.
    
    In my opinion, it is a criminal act to abuse a child emotionally,
    physically, or sexually (or anyone else for that matter).  Just
    because the *law* doesn't recognize emotional abuse to be as devastating
    as sexual abuse to a child's development, does not mean that it
    is not.  And, therefore, we cannot minimize the effects of sexual
    abuse just because some forms of emotional abuse are just as
    devastating.  
    
    I agree, it *is* possible for a caring person to have sexual thoughts
    and a sexual reaction *without acting on it.*
    
    I disagree that "interaction with all individuals is sexual in some
    way".  I do not think that my interactions with all individuals
    is sexual or even sensual.  There are times when my behavior is
    sexual and there are definite times when it is not.  Of course, I 
    also differ quite vehemently with Freud on a number of matters.  
    Incest is one.  Freud believed the women who came to him with their 
    memories of incest until the frequency of incestuous experiences 
    became too disturbing to him (and he began to question some of his 
    father's actions - for more on this Incest Resources has published 
    a paper on Freud's reactions and his treatment of incest).  Another
    reason why Freud reversed his earlier opinion was the "flaming"
    he received from his colleagues.  Anyway, he had to figure out a
    way to account for all the incest experiences his clients were
    describing to him so, he came up with the Oedipus/Electra complex.
    Essentially, he blamed the victim for the feelings she was having.
    
    >That does not mean that we consider at any point in time a sexual
    >relationship, it means that we relate sexually to people of the
    >opposite sex.
    
    Not everyone relates sexually to the opposite sex.  Some people
    relate, by choice, to the same sex.  The fact is, you can't equivocally
    say that mothers are sexually attracted to their sons and fathers
    to their daughters.  Only 1% of abusers are women.  Most boys who
    are abused are abused by their fathers.  Most women who abuse, abuse
    their daughters, not their sons.  And, the vast majority of abuse
    cases are by a male caretaker against a female.  So the issue has
    nothing to do with unresolved Oedipal complexes.  It has to do with
    how women and children are perceived in this society, ie., vulnerable
    and as possessions.
    
    A rapist/murderer once said in an interview (on what rape did for 
    him) that as he held his hand around the victim's throat she looked
    so vulnerable and it made him feel sooooo powerful.  It made him
    feel better than he had ever felt before.  It made him feel like
    he was somebody.
    
    I think child molesters crave the same feeling.  I also think this
    feeling is addictive -- that's why it is so very unusual for a molester
    to be "cured".
    
    >I would not want a man who had an erection while a young girl was
    >sitting in his lap to be brought to our courts.
    
    I *do*.  Of course, if the man, upon realizing that he had an erection,
    put the child down, then that would not be an abusive situation.
     If he continued to have the child sit in his lap, then he is using
    that child for his own sexual/power gratification.
    
    Melanie

    Re: .42 - 
    
    You and Lisa are two very courageous individuals.  That was one
    of the most inspirational accounts of this crime that I have ever
    encountered.  Thank you for sharing, caring, and fighting.  This
    is proof that the beast can be vanquished.  It involves a lot
    of blood, sweat and tears and it's exhiliarating to know that the
    battle can be won!
    
    Bless you both.
    
    CC        
    

    <-42.
    
       Thanks for sharing your story and success and hard work.  Both
       myself and my SO are Incest and Sexual abuse survivor's.  The
       most important message I got from your story, is the incredible
       power and endurance of loving.  It is hard work, it is scary,
       as you and Lisa know it is worth it.  More good news is that
       this crime is "coming out of the closet", and men and women can
       get help as a survivor or as a lover or a survivor.  Lisa sounds
       like the kind of woman who deserves to win and be loved, and
       you sounds like a man who can be a part of that..
    
    In healing....MaggieT 

    <- .42
    
    Good God...I don't understand how people can be so cruel.  I hope
    that men like that step-father are few and far between.
    
    There are men (like me) who do care and are willing to help.
    The victims that I hear about, like Lisa, are already starting to heal.
    It is the victims that are still hiding that I worry about.
    
    					MJC O->

    re .42:
    
    My heart goes out to you as well as 'Lisa'.  I admire you for staying
    with her even though you were nervous about her.  Please, anyone
    else who finds himself in this situation, remember she did nothing
    to cause or deserve this kind of treatment, nor was there anything
    she could have done to stop it.
    
    I understand your anger toward her step-father, including your desire
    to kill him.  For your own sake, please stay within the legal system,
    although I can't imagine a suitable punishment for him.  On the
    other hand, most abusers were at one time the abused.  Perhaps we
    would feel somewhat sorry for him if we knew what his story is.
    This does *NOT* mean that I am condoning his actions!
    
    Elizabeth
    

    re .42
    
    MG, that was very moving.
    
    While I can understand and fully respect your desire for anonymity,
    I would urge you to give a MAIL address to one of the moderators,
    so if there is anyone who wants to talk to you, MAIL can be forwarded
    (some of the people who have told rape stories here have been contacted
    by people with similar experiences who just need to share.  It can
    be as cathartic  as the original note).
    
    The reactions of the mother are typical, from what I understand,
    of women in her situation as well as women who are battered wives.
    Some feel they asked for it (the rotten treatment) or can't do anything
    about it.  They may suffer from an incredibly low self esteem (one
    of those legacies of our culture which makes women hate themselves
    as weak) or from a sense of futility.  They need support and love;
    we need to show them their options and support them through their
    trial (as you have done for Lisa).
    
    I hope there are lots of men out there like you with the courage
    to help a human being who has suffered as much as your loved one
    has.
    
    In Sisterhoood,
    
    Lee