| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 335.1 | A Supportive Community for Women | PNEUMA::SULLIVAN | | Mon Jun 15 1987 16:20 | 73 |
|
1. What are your expectations of a conference like womannotes?
I thought is would be a place where women could share
the experience of being a woman working in a man's world.
At first, I expected that only women would participate in it.
I didn't think men would be excluded, I just didn't think they'd
want to contribute to WOMANNOTES. When I saw that men were joining
in, I still thought that the tone and agenda would be set by women.
2. Is the conference doing everything it could do/you expected it could
do when you first started writing/reading?
No. I've been discouraged. I'm delighted that the conference
is here, and I would rather have it continue as it is than
stop, but I'm often bothered by the tone that is sometimes
set here.
a. I think we spend an awful lot of energy trying to
legitimize/explain our concerns to the male noters
in this file. Some of the men might come back and say
that understanding each other is the ultimate goal, but
I disagree. I think it's important for men and women to
understand each other, but I don't think this conference
needs to meet that goal. I think if men listened more
and talked less in this conference, 2 things would happen:
1. It would be a more comfortable and safe space
for women - this is THE Goal, I thought.
2. Men who truly wished to understand women better
would learn more by listening than by rebutting
a large percentage of what's said.
b. I hear an awful lot of anger at "radical feminists," which
I think really means lesbian, in this context. If the tone
and agenda for this conference were truly set by the women
participants, I think a whole range of women's experience
(including the more "radical" [whatever that means] elements
of it) could be more freely expressed and considered. In
other words, if we were less worried about what the men in
this file might think, we might look at the differences and
similarities among us *AS Women* more openly and with less
fear.
c. In the last few months I've heard a lot more classist and
homophobic comments than I'm used to hearing in this
conference. I'm not sure why this is happening, but it
troubles me.
3. If the answer to question 2 is no - how would you change the conference
to help it fulfill it's potential better?
I don't think there should be any changes in or additions to
the rules of this conference, but I would like to try (again)
to appeal to the male members of this community to be more
respectful of this conference as women's space. I work with
almost all men, and I get along with them, but I also value
the company of women, and it would be nice if this conference
could provide more of that. I remember that when this conference
began, it was described as a "Safe Space" for women. Well, I think
that instead of creating a "safe space," we have really created
a replica of the "real world." The men seem to think that's ok.
I'd like to know what the women think.
Thanks for the chance to articulate some of this, Bonnie. I look
forward to hearing/reading what other noters think. I'm glad this
conference is here. Maybe airing some of our concerns and criticisms
will help us reach our potential as a community that is truly supportive
of women.
Justine
|
| 335.2 | put the WOMAN back in WOMANnotes | RAINBO::IANNUZZO | Catherine T. | Mon Jun 15 1987 17:54 | 43 |
| .1 was added while I was preparing this. I pretty much second
those opinions...
>1. What are your expectations of a conference like womannotes?
A sense of community based on our identities as women, the opportunity
to share, support each other, discuss things that are unique to our
experience in the world. Women can be very cut off from each other
in the corporate (male-dominated) world, and this ought to be an
opportunity to create connections with each other.
>2. Is the conference doing everything it could do/you expected it could
>do when you first started writing/reading?
I'd have to say no. I don't want to bring up the "men" issue,
but I think too much time gets spent by women defending their perceptions
and experiences to men who are constantly challenging their validity.
Women shouldn't have to be so defensive in what is supposedly a conference
devoted to their needs and issues.
I'm also surprised that the conference isn't more diverse, in terms of
hearing from the more radical elements that one often finds in a women's
group of anything. For all that the women here get accused of "radical
feminism", I've heard relatively little of it.
The conference is overwhelmingly heterosexually obsessed. I suppose
that reflects how male-oriented so many women's lives are, but it's far
from the totality of women's experience. Any discussion of lesbian issues
seems to die a quick death in this file. It surprises and disappoints me.
I'm also surprised at the unsupportive attitude to women's economic issues.
I think it's unfortunate one of the members left because of an insensitivity
to what working class women have to deal with. If you aren't a corporate
success, you won't get much understanding here.
>3. If the answer to question 2 is no - how would you change the conference
>to help it fufill it's potential better?
I've got no magic solutions. One might be to make it strictly women-only,
but I'm not sure about that. There are some men's contributions that I've
found valuable. I do wish that the men wouldn't set the tone and agenda
as much as they do, and I wish the women didn't have to engage in a struggle
to make that happen.
|
| 335.3 | Let's Be Friends! | WARLRD::CFLETCHER | Short Stuff | Mon Jun 15 1987 21:55 | 69 |
| Hi!
I'm quite please with WOMANNOTES, just the way it is - with one
exception.
We are all grown-up people - but sometimes the arguements that go
back and forth get so darn petty and whiney! Both the men and women
who contribute to this note can get soooo sensitive! I can understand
how somethings can really tee certain people off. I've had some
very unpleasant experiences in my life, too.
I guess we all need to realize that we can ALL be pretty blind to
others feelings sometimes - but I seriously do NOT think that any
of the people that contribute mean to hurt, or upset the others.
I'm just glad that they are concerned enough to want to understand.
Many of us (like me) aren't very good at getting our point, or though
across the way that we feel.
I have learned alot from this file, about women, and how men feel,
or think about us. The subjects like PMS, and stereotypes of people
of different nationaliy (I'm have Spanish. Mi Madre is from Colombia)
make me feel good inside to know that I'm not the only one to suffer
from these problems. Its nice to be able to share things - good
and bad with other people.
My SO has learned alot from this file too. It makes me happy to
know that he cares enough about me to want to try to understand
how women feel about things. I feel the same way about the other
men that reply to this conference - I don't think that they would bother
to contribute if they weren't honestly trying to learn something!
My only "complaint" is that I think some of the contributors need
to think a little bit more about what they are writing before they
add their notes. Its alot easier lash out with anger, (and ending
up hurting another person's feelings, and/or making them mad back
at you - which does NOT get your point across at all!), than to
write with a little more restraint and make a true CONTRIBUTION
to this note file. Anger never cures ignoreance.
People who are ignorant to certain things (Date Rape), need to be
a lot more sensative! Maybe you should have a friend proof your
entry before adding it to the note. It is very immature and cruel
not to be sensitive to things that you know nothing about. I feel
that with very sensitive subjects - that If you can't express your
questions, or concerns with sensitivity - then don't reply at all!
The whole idea for this notes file (at least how I feel) is for
women and men to learn more about women. In otherwords, people to
learn about people.
If y'all want to have cat fights - maybe a new notes file should
be created for this :-)! But it certainly does NOT belong in here!
Sorry to be long winded. I'm one of those who aren't good at
expressing my thoughts.
P.S. I honestly don't think I'd be very interesting in WOMENNOTES
if men weren't allow to contribute (or made to feel uncomfortable
to do so). It wouldn't be very realistic, would it?
Bye, y'all!
Corinne
|
| 335.4 | There are still no easy answers... | NEXUS::CONLON | Have a nice diurnal anomaly! | Mon Jun 15 1987 23:32 | 97 |
| RE: .3
What is a "cat fight?" Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've
always heard the term used in a very derogatory way about
women (as a means of belittling the women themselves, their
arguments, and their right to even have opinions in the
first place.)
The majority of the arguments in this file have not been between
women. There's been no time to do that (since most of the energy
in this file is spent in trying to justify our positions and
prove the validity of our feelings to the men who insist upon
setting the agenda in this conference.) Not all the men here
attempt to do that, of course (and not all women agree on every-
thing in this file.) But I do think it is unfair to utilize
a convenient negative stereotype of women and say that all we
are doing here is engaging in some sort of "cat fight."
RE: .0
As much as I like men as friends, co-workers, SO's et al --
I think that *some* of the male involvement in this conference
has been too heavy-handed. Trying to have a discussion is like
trying to have a swim meet in molasses. We get all caught up
in mis-understandings and trying to validate feelings (only
to see =womannotes= portrayed in other conferences as being
full of man-haters, feminists and whatever other names people
can think of to call us.)
This file is incredibly *tame* compared to its counterpart on
the Usenet. We've watered everything down to an infinite degree
in order for all men to feel comfortable (and it *still* hasn't
stopped some men from becoming upset at what they see here.)
If anyone is truly interested in what men think (on an almost
infinite variety of subjects, both work and non-work related)
-- we have a big net out there full of interesting (but endless)
pontifications in conferences that are more often dominated
by men's thoughts than women's. I'm not trying to say that
it's *bad* that we hear more from men than women. It just happens
to be the way things are in DEC (and in most of the rest of
the real world.) I have no objection to it in principle.
What bothers me is that we often see the complaint here that
women are *trying* too hard to dominate this one conference
(that happens to be called =womannotes=.) In this one file,
some men scream discrimination (that it's not fair for women
to dominate this file.) So far, they have been quite succesful
in making sure that women have *NOT* dominated this file (even
going so far as to be the ones to tell *US* what sexual discrimi-
nation means and what we should feel/do about it.)
The only reason I ever came to this file in the first place
was to see how other women felt about women's issues. I don't
always agree with other women, but I'm most interested in what
other women *think* anyway (about the issues that affect us.)
Many women in this file have calmly (coldly and logically)
defended their ideas and arguments *point by point* -- and when
some of the men find that they have no logic left to fight with,
they start in with "There is a party line in this conference"
and "You women just don't want to hear from any man who doesn't
agree with you." Not long ago, a man asked that we support
his ideas (even though we disagreed with them) so that we would
be treating him fairly in this conference.
The community of women is diverse (spanning continents, cultures
and an infinite number of philosophies and lifestyles within
any *single* culture as well.) We are composed of a rich fabric
that includes the women among us who do not see men as viable
romantic partners at all (i.e., lesbians.) I'm another person
who wonders why it is so hard for us to include the female
aspect of the gay culture in this file. Again, I'm of the
opinion that it has to do with our efforts to make men feel
comfortable here. Since we have nearly all agreed that it is
impossible to make all men feel comfortable in this file, I
wonder why we continue to slight a portion of our community
by supporting an effort that is clearly a losing battle.
Like others have said, there are no easy answers. We may have
to accept the fact that there is no way to publicly talk to
each other without interference. And, as much as I find myself
annoyed by some of the male comments, there are other male
contributions in this file that I find immeasurably valuable
(and I wouldn't dream of asking those men to stop saying what
they think.)
In light of that, I think that the file is probably as succesful
as we could ask a public file to be in giving us the chance
to meet and discuss things with other women. I have to say
also that many of the most intelligent discussions I've seen
in all of notes have happened *right here*. I think things
are going about as well as can be expected for the times
we live in.
Suzanne...
|
| 335.5 | Post Script | NEXUS::CONLON | Have a nice diurnal anomaly! | Mon Jun 15 1987 23:40 | 17 |
| re: .4
In the reference that I made to the name-calling in other
conferences about women who write here, I included the
name "feminist" on purpose (because the meaning has been
so often **twisted** to mean something negative by people
who are trying to insult women.)
Just wanted to clarify that I'm not making a political
statement about the positive or negative qualities of
women who consider themselves feminists -- I am just
trying to be accurate in my assessment of the ways in
which women and this file are being insulted in other
conferences.
Suzanne...
|
| 335.6 | All Opinions Welcome? | CSSE::MARGE | Eat dessert first;life is uncertain. | Tue Jun 16 1987 07:41 | 21 |
| I received mail from one of the moderators asking that I reply to
this topic... apparently she knows this is a file which goes on
and off my notebook as the blood pressure dictates...
I had hopes that this file would welcome women of all political
and philosophical persuasions... it has not. I have seen intimidation
tactics used against a woman who stated she was against feminist
ideas. This is not to detract from the excellent exchange of
information which has occurred and which is why I check in
occasionally.
But if we're talking about encouraging "radicalism" in this
file, then I think we had better look at both ends of that pendulum
and be fair about it.
As for the male participants, so long as they stick to the topic
of women's issues, I'd encourage them to stay. There is good reason
to make the GDE and AA files closed but I don't think there is good
reason to make this file closed.
Marge_who_sits_mid-pendulum
|
| 335.7 | it challenges me | SUPER::HENDRICKS | Not another learning experience! | Tue Jun 16 1987 08:00 | 48 |
| I like Womannotes. I read it every day, and of all the notes files
in my notebook, it is the one I read 2nd! (The one I read first
is one that I moderate.)
I say what I like in this file. I don't spend a lot of time
apologizing to either men or women if they don't like or don't agree
with what I say. My attitude is "Don't start fighting with me--write
something articulate about what you think!". I have never felt
intimidated.
At the same time, I see the problems which have been mentioned above.
The difference is that those problems challenge me to be very
articulate and to avoid generalizing. When I spent 3 years in a
"community of women", one of the things that bothered me was that
we shared *so* many assumptions that we ceased to actively discuss
many things which we had similar views on, and instead concentrated
on our differences. It got petty at times. At other times it felt
like a very supportive community.
A similar thing happened when I spent 4 years in a "New Age community".
In many ways it was a nice cocoon of similar minded people, but
in other ways we ceased to discuss many things we had similar views
on. We just reiterated them to nodded heads.
I think people need time to develop in supportive communities where
there is lots of affirmation and head nodding. I also think it
is stimulating for some people to create and maintain a community
in an open space where there is lots of challenge. Some men may try
to set the agenda, but they never set my agenda. They cannot shut
me off any more than I can shut them off. I don't need approval
for what I write here.
The one thing that does bother me a lot is that a certain kind of
"goodness" and a certain definition of "success" operate strongly
here. Those who write are very visible in the corporate world.
I think that tacit approval is given to people in high status jobs
who are very articulate, heterosexual, aggressive, reflect an upper
middle class background, have a college education and have proven
success in the corporate world. Do we really want the values which
govern success in the corporate world to come through so strongly
in this notesfile?
I do see some of us trying to talk about the scary stuff and
succeeding.
Holly
|
| 335.8 | "Cat Fighting?" | WARLRD::CFLETCHER | Short Stuff | Tue Jun 16 1987 09:40 | 52 |
| Cat fights....
Where I grew up the term "Cat fight" means the way people (people
= human beings, which the only human beings I know exist are males
and females) bicker, snarl, whine, etc... over petty, unecessary
things. They end up sounding like cats (the fuzzy little non-humans)
fighting at 3:00 in the morning (snarl, scream, screech!).
Different people living in different areas of the country, world,
etc. have different words for expressing things. For example:
When I see someone, I say "Hey!". In the south (at least in Louisiana
and Georgia) that means "Hi!". People from other areas of the country
might not realize that, or use a different word to say "Hi!".
My mom is Spanish, therefore I am forever doomed to say "towel papers"
instead of "paper towels". (words are reversed in Spanish - ex.
the chair black, instead of the black chair)
Maybe when people have a problem with things like the above - it
would be better just to send mail to the person for an explanation,
instead of wasting space.
I usually skip over most of the entries that start with something
as petty as worrying over the meaning "cat fight" As, quite frankly -
I did do with the #4. I could have missed something very informative - or
just something interesting, but when I hear someone getting off
subject on something I consider so petty as that, I just don't feel
like trying to pick out the good stuff. Why bother? I just go on
to the next reply. I have a feeling that a lot of other people
do the same, too.
Maybe we should start a subject just for cat fighting over things
like "cat fights".
And I'm still NOT gonna start using a dictionary, so I imagine,
that I'll use other stuff like "cat fight" again.
I am never, ever, ever, going to take up space on something as silly
as this again. I've got more important things to worry about.
Gotta go.
Have a very happy day, y'all!
Corinne.
|
| 335.9 | A simple "I think you misunderstood" would have sufficed... | NEXUS::CONLON | Have a nice diurnal anomaly! | Tue Jun 16 1987 09:51 | 21 |
| RE: .8
Sorry if you took great offense at my questioning your use
of the words "cat fight." I did invite you to "correct me
if I'm wrong" (in assuming that you were referring to an
old negative stereotype about women.)
You apparently decided to demonstrate what you meant by the
term (and did so quite effectively) by going on and on about
the "pettiness" of my question and emphasizing that you did
not read the rest of my note.
Not exactly a big step forward in communication, but I'm
encouraged to see these small things get cleared up in the
open (rather than give the impression that even women are
continuing to label us with the same stereotypes that we've
tried so hard to get rid of in the past 20 years.)
Peace,
Suzanne... ;-)
|
| 335.10 | Feeling *slightly* unwelcome. | HULK::DJPL | Do you believe in magic? | Tue Jun 16 1987 10:12 | 40 |
| In all honesty, after reading .1, .2 and a couple others, I enter this
reply with a little trepidation.
>1. What are your expectations of a conference like womannotes?
My expectations were that I would be able to find out what really
bothers/encourages women. I hoped that the male perspective on these
issues would be welcomed because I firmly believe that, before you can
solve a problem or misunderstanding, you have to get both sides of the
'case' on the table. Communication doesn't do any good if you hold back
most of what you are feeling.
>2. Is the conference doing everything it could do/you expected it could
>do when you first started writing/reading?
In some cases I got more than I bargained for. I did, however,
note that there is a desire for this to be a 'safe place for women'. I'll
be the first to admit that I have a little difficulty with this because I
more than welcome hearing the female point of view on topics in Mennotes.
Then again, people are individuals and are entitled to their opinions.
>3. If the answer to question 2 is no - how would you change the conference
>to help it fufill it's potential better?
I would just hope that the flaming level could go down after the
initial flames are let out. Flames are good for venting one's spleen, I
just wish people could turn down the heat once the 'got it out of their
system'.
I will add one positive note. I think WOMANNOTES does a better job
at bridging the 'gender gap' than MENNOTES. Then again, WOMANNOTES gets
more traffic.
If men are excluded from this file, I would ask that you consider
the following. How would it sound if, all of a sudden, a "WHITEMALENOTES"
conference opened? That would sound pretty racist and sexist and, in the
end, solve nothing and cause a lot of problems.
WOMMANNOTES may not be perfect, nothing is. It does, however, seem
to be be the best around as far as promoting an attempt of understanding.
|
| 335.11 | Understanding the prominent presence of professional women... | NEXUS::CONLON | Have a nice diurnal anomaly! | Tue Jun 16 1987 10:15 | 25 |
| In regards to the remarks I've seen about the voices of the
many professional women in this file, I think that much of
it comes from the desire to establish credibility during
long debates (especially the ones we've had with the more
argumentative men in the file.)
It's another one of the distracting elements of the long
arguments we've had with men (the fact that many of us have
felt the need to emphasize to some of the more aggressive
male debaters that *many* of us are their dead-level peers.)
Like I said earlier, the women in this file are quite a diverse
group and I would honestly like to see more open communication
between groups of women that seem to feel they have very little
in common. There seems to be a hostility that is inherent between
women who enjoy different lifestyles/careers and although there
might initially be some harsh words exchanged (in a truly open
dialogue among these groups) -- I think the end result would
be worthwhile.
It will never happen if we can't resolve the issue at hand and
get down to the business of understanding each other (as women)
and hash out our differences (as well as to share our strengths.)
Suzanne... ;-)
|
| 335.12 | "Don't let us be misunderstood..." | NEXUS::CONLON | Have a nice diurnal anomaly! | Tue Jun 16 1987 10:26 | 19 |
| RE: .10
No one has yet suggested that men be excluded completely.
The contributions from men have been as varied as the ones
from women. Personally, I would just like to see a little
less of the "all out war" style of questioning what women
claim to be a valid perspective.
It doesn't surprise me at all to see this note discussed in
=mennotes= and that some men are taking these comments to mean
that men are not wanted (at all) in this file.
That's precisely what this note is all about (i.e., that our
words are so often misunderstood when it comes to men and that
we spend far too much time trying to reassure men that we don't
hate them or want them to go away.) And we really don't. Or
at least most of us don't. ;-)
Suzanne... ;-)
|
| 335.13 | I'm in real trouble now... | NEXUS::CONLON | Have a nice diurnal anomaly! | Tue Jun 16 1987 10:40 | 13 |
| Uh, oh. I can see that there might be some misunderstandings
about what I said (in .10) about establishing credibility.
That's **NOT** to say that women who are not dead-level peers
with men do not have totally valid arguments/perspectives
about women's issues.
I just meant that it is awfully tempting to want to point out
the reality of our peer-levels with men when the debating gets
especially intense. It's not an argument in and of itself,
but it helps to establish an equitable forum for a debate.
Suzanne... ;-)
|
| 335.14 | Lets listen more | OURVAX::JEFFRIES | the best is better | Tue Jun 16 1987 10:41 | 24 |
| I have been read only for a couple of months. I enjoy this conference
and wouldn't change it. I have been read only because I am a very
sensitive person, and I don't enjoy being attacked like some of
the contributers have been. There are times that I have strong
opinions about issues, but refrain from expressing myself because
there are too many noters out there who feel their opinion is the
only correct one. In most instances the conference is what I expected.
One change I would like to see is for noters to be more tolerent
of others opinions and life experiences. There have been a lot of
painful discussions in this conference, and I feel if you don't
have constructive comment, than maybe no comment is better.
I think sometimes we forget that in this great country of ours there
are hundreds of cultures living next door to each other. Let's listen
and learn from them rather than argue with and contradict them. I
am sick of all the lack of tolerence we all express, men vs women,
whites vs blacks, rich vs poor, the lis goes on.
Now I think I will go back to read only.
Pat
|
| 335.15 | Maybe .10 was a little strong. | HULK::DJPL | Do you believe in magic? | Tue Jun 16 1987 11:18 | 39 |
| re .12
I understand that. [That it's not suggested men be excluded]
I was just expressing a feeling of _slight_ unwelcomeness. Like I said,
it's slight.
For the most part, it's been a positive experience. I've learned a few
things I would not have ordinarily found out [like hassles being given to
women who put up children for adoption].
My comment about a theoretical "WHITEMALENOTES" was just that, theoretical.
That's the barometer I use to see how productive WOMANNOTES has been. I
just look at what the flip side *could* be like.
To give a positive note about WOMANNOTES, I'd like to relate a personal
viewpoint.
I never gave much thought to sexism. I was raised _exclusively_ by women
[4-5 different people at various points in my life]. I never thought women
were 'inferior'. The idea was completely foreign to me. I used to wonder
about what women were screaming about on the 6 o'clock news.
When I started working, I thought it was 'curious' that there weren't more
women in the field I was in. After all, women were just as smart as men.
I didn't really get an understanding until I started reading these notes.
In fact, I was finding myself harboring some distasteful thoughts about
certain aspects of 'feminism' because I didn't completely understand where
women were coming from [not to say that I completely understand it now].
When I hear some of the stories related herein, I shudder. To think that
people could be so blind to half the human race! My problem was because
I never saw and never considered it, sexism was nearly impossible to
visualise. I thought sexist people were really on the lunatic fringe. I
had no idea it was so pervasive in mainstream culture.
WOMANNOTES serves a good purpose. Don't change a thing. I know I've
profited [personally and emotionally] from it.
|
| 335.16 | One man's opinion. | SSGVAX::LUST | Reality is for those that can't handle drugs | Tue Jun 16 1987 11:33 | 47 |
| Thanks Bonnie, for starting this note.
I am a great fan of this conference. It is the only one I read every day.
I started reading it because (as I stated in my introduction) I wanted to
learn more about women and their views of the world.
I have been very impressed by both the intellegent, cogent entries, as well
as the incredibly dumb and insensitive entries. (I find it rather significant
that both types can emminate from either men or women.) I too feel that
there is too much argument from male correspondents, who frequently seem to
me to be too busy justifying themselves and their views thereby missing
what I feel is the basic point of this file: to learn from and about women.
But in this they are all too often encouraged by women who attack the
person inappropriately.
There are three major changes which I would like to see for this conference:
1. I would like to see a much broader base of noters. There seems
to be a core of some 15-20 women and men who do most of the talking.
I am not suggesting that I want them to stop, but I would like to
see a greater diversity of women and men so we could see a broader
spectrum of opinion shared.
2. I would like to see a broader range of issues explored. Including
ones with which I have no exposure yet. The idea of learning more
about homosexuality, male or female, is not repugnant to me - I want
to learn about it because it affects people and in John Donne's
famous words: "For I am of mankind..." I want to learn.
3. I want to see more compassion and understanding in all of the
noters. I am frequently disturbed by the intensity of the flames
in this file, which I find repugnant. Surely we can agree to
disagree without all of the heat. Please let's state our cases
without attacking or being attacked by some other correspondent.
Give us your ideas without necessarily giving your (probably
incorrect) opinions of those who may disagree with you.
As I stated before, I really enjoy this file. I have learned much (the
discussion of date rape, for example, was one of the most enlightening
discussions I have ever read). I want to see this conference expand and
grow so that it may indeed teach us all more about the opposite sex and
therefore more about life.
In peace and love!
Dirk
|
| 335.17 | | VOLGA::B_REINKE | the fire and the rose are one | Tue Jun 16 1987 11:39 | 76 |
| The following are two mail replies
...I am more than willing to express
my feelings about the 'tone' of Womannotes and what I would like to get from
a conference developed to discuss women's issues.
I think there are some givens that should be identified in the introduction,
facts and background around women's issues. I think we could use a policy
statement on acceptable debate around these issues. I think the introduction
and policy statement should be approved by the female readership of the
conference. After this has occurred I would like to see the conference
moderated to insure that the charter approved by the majority is upheld.
The conference is good, it has identified to me the issue that has caused me
the most pain. There were two major issues in my life that I discussed in
this file and both times these very real, well documented issues were dealt
with an insensitivity that I had a hard time dealing with.
In another conference they are discussing people's behavior when they are
driving. They are relating instances where people are vicious behind the
wheel. I would like to suggest that people can be vicious behind the
terminal...and I for one don't want to be a part of a conference that
supports that type of bad behavior. Free speech is a right we have, but
even the National Enquirer is subject to libel and slander charges. Our
newspapers have to support their editorials with facts. But here in
Womannotes we can state that issues don't exist and feelings aren't valid.
Another observation that I have, which is difficult to identify, I feel
that this conference is a tool that some people use to impress others. I
don't know how we could prevent this but it would be one of the first notes
I will put in when I do return to Womannotes. Although it is not bad it
can be quite annoying to find a conversation between two or three people
dominating an issue or conference.
I want to come back, I want to be a part of Womannotes, I want to talk about
the ERA and how I manage my household responsibilities, but I want some
order and some compassion and mostly I want the respect of the men and
women that read this file.
In sisterhood,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. My expectations were to express our views about regarding the problems
we have in everyday life. I feel that people can share different
experiences they have had. I feel that their are to many personal
attacks and that some of the men in the notes do this to intentionally
to stir up controversies. They have no idea what it's like to be a
woman except for Dustin Hoffman who had to dress up like a woman in
Tootsie and finally said "Wow, women put up with all this sh*t"
2. No I feel that the conference is just a bickering table for men
and women to attack each other. Alot of people put in personal stuff
that hurt to write about yet some men (I think mostly men) couldn't
see how emotionally upsetting it was for someone to attack something
that hurts them personally (like DATE RAPE, POVERTY etc.)
3. I forgot what three was but basicly Woman notes doesn't do anything
for me anymore because people just fight and I don't learn anything
from arguments. If you look in other notes files people have lots
of suggestions and stories to tell but rarely do people fight about
something unless it's a hot issue. I feel that every issue brought
up people are of the defense and offense. It's like watching
a married couple argue all the time basicly.
I'm left woman notes and I doubt if I will return because basicly I got
a new job with more responsiblities and less time to play on the
terminal. I probably will leave all the notes files I have got into
for the same reason eventually.
Good Luck!
|
| 335.20 | Some thoughts | BRUTWO::MTHOMSON | | Tue Jun 16 1987 12:38 | 13 |
| I like womannotes, often I "need it" as well. The world is comprized
of men and women...we all belong. When people try to communicate
with one another there are bound to be disagreements. I try to
remember that often when I speak English, some people hear "Latvian".
Their perceptions of what they think I mean, are not mine.
I think the voices of men, are often strong in this file. We need
to hear each other. I do not hear people, men or women when they
shout. It must be genetic, shouting turns my brain off. All we
can do it try to be ourselves and honor that in each other.
maggie
|
| 335.21 | A Process Request | PNEUMA::SULLIVAN | | Tue Jun 16 1987 12:42 | 5 |
|
I have a suggestion:
Lets keep this note open for people to respond to Bonnie's questions
and use note 337 for responding to the issues raised here.
|
| 335.22 | The Silent Majority rides again? | MANANA::RAVAN | | Tue Jun 16 1987 12:56 | 45 |
| In general I think this conference is more open, and certainly more
willing to analyze itself, than most of the others on the net.
This is not always a good thing.
Now and then I'll pop in here and see what I consider to be yet
another stream of inward-looping analysis that doesn't (to me) appear
to be productive. *HOWEVER*, as long as the participants in those
discussions find value in it, more power to them; I can always hit
NEXT UNSEEN.
The thing that bothers me most is what I perceive as an unwillingness
to defend one's point of view. True, people can be abusive, and
noters have been picked on - but often I'll see a note saying, in
effect, "I'm going to take my ball and go home," where it did not
seem (to me) that the fleeing noter had been bashed particularly
hard. (Then again, I cut my noting teeth on TRIVIA and SOAPBOX,
and got used to a slightly rougher playground.)
Oddly enough, one of my biggest problems as a woman has been an
unwillingness to fight. If I'm discussing something in public and
someone else refutes me in a manner indicating that that person
is more self-assured than I am (which isn't difficult), I often
back down, and frequently begin to doubt my own point of view. If
this is what happens to the bash-ees in this conference, I sympathize;
but to me, one of the strong points of noting is that I find it
much easier to stand up for myself, to agree to disagree, to "slug
it out" verbally.
We all should be courteous to each other, even when refuting factual
errors or arguing a question. However, I have observed noters who
seem to take the slightest contradiction, however gently phrased,
as "an attack." As I cannot think of a way to have a fruitful
discussion without occassional disagreement, I'm afraid that the
more sensitive will always have to put up with some criticism.
I find it entertaining in an ironic sort of way that the two main
critiques of this conference seem to be: (a) People jump all over
those who take unpopular viewpoints and drum them out of the file,
and (b) this file is composed of a bunch of feminists who only want
to give each other warm fuzzies. Can't we try and get our "warm
fuzzies" from having fruitful discussions with those who have utterly
different viewpoints than our own?
-b
|
| 335.23 | Sisterhood Is Only As Powerful As We Make It | MOSAIC::TARBET | Margaret Mairhi | Tue Jun 16 1987 13:43 | 3 |
| I've copied .18 and moved .19 to 337.1 & .2 respectively.
=maggie
|
| 335.24 | Its not pretty but its home | BUFFER::LEEDBERG | Truth is Beauty, Beauty is Truth | Tue Jun 16 1987 13:55 | 51 |
|
1. What are your expectations of a conference like womannotes?
I do not feel that this is "safe space" for women to
express their views, experiences or even to try out
new points of view. It is better as is then not there
at all. I had hoped that some of the women in this
conference would have the opportunity to try out new/
or different ideas and get input from other women who
have done the same. My note on Feminist Thealogy is
a sample of this. I am still dealing with many of my
own pre-conceived views of the world that were drilled
into me when I as young. I do not need to listen to
the established ideas I need to listen to new views,
different ways of looking at the world.
2. Is the conference doing everything it could do/you expected it could
do when you first started writing/reading?
*** N O ***
The conference is struggling just as women have to
struggle to have their say heard. One of the things I
like about this conference is that I am not always the
radical one - there are a number of "radicals" on both
sides of issues. The problem is when it is males discussing
OUR issues between them and not listening to what WE are
saying.
BTW - I have read very few "Radical Feminist" notes here.
3. If the answer to question 2 is no - how would you change the conference
to help it fufill it's potential better?
This is very difficult to answer - if we can FIX IT here
maybe we can FIX IT other places.
I would guess that all we can do is keep on trying to
be heard. A little bit of support goes a long way. I
have thought about leaving the conference from time to
time but I am still here. I have learned how to pass
by certain notes and noters to keep my irratation level
low enough to handle.
Many times I thank the Goddess that we have WOMANnotes, it could
be worse, we could not even have this forum.
_peggy (-|-)
| The Goddess is my guide
| and she knows the way of the world.
|
| 335.26 | | DSSDEV::BURROWS | Jim Burrows | Tue Jun 16 1987 14:35 | 114 |
| 1. What are your expectations of a conference like womannotes?
I had no idea what to expect, as to what would be discussed or
whether I would be permitted to participate. Mostly I was
curious as to what women thought were "women's issues". Having
been closer to girls and women than to boys and men all my life,
I had a hard time identifying any issue as solely the pervue of
one sex or the other. It seemed to me that almost any issue was
a people issue, aside from a few physiological issues.
2. Is the conference doing everything it could do/you expected it could
do when you first started writing/reading?
When I found that the file would be open to members of both
sexes, I thought it might serve as a forum for a number of
issues and questions that I had about relationships and
interactions between men and women and for issues more common
to women than men. For instance, there were the issues of
perceived but unintended sexual harassment that I brought
up around topic 60 or so, and the issue of how you deal
professionally with very attractive members of the oposite
sex.
In terms of more-often-female issues there had been a remarkable
discussion of date rape in Sexcetera in which two women and I
had talked about first hand experiences with sexual assualt. I
felt I had learned a lot from that and that others had. I
thought maybe this could be a home for such issues.
3. If the answer to question 2 is no - how would you change the conference
to help it fufill it's potential better?
There are a number of things.
1. A number (a small fraction) of fairly visible men are fairly
bitter about their past failures with women and say some
terribly cruel things. I wish they would shut up, go away, or
undergo a personal growth experience. (It would suit my sense of
irony if they could be made to understand at first hand the pain
they cause, and maybe my sense of vindiciveness.)
2. A number of women, and even occasionally a man or two, but
again a small fraction have a considerable bitternes over the
unfairness that they have seen in the world, and occasionally
from their failures with men. I don't wish they would shut up or
go away, but rather that they learn that it is no more a crime
to be a white Anglo-Saxon protestant heterosexual married, able
bodied, professional middle class male than it is to be a woman.
I wish they could learn to overcome adversity rather than to
rail against it. I wish that they would not use a stereotype
that I fit perfectly as the symbol of all that is evil in the
world.
That I react more with hostility towards the bitter men in this
file than to the bitter women in this file may be part of what
we used to call gallantry, but which is now seen as sexism, or
it may be my sympathy for the underdog. Whatever its source it
is there and I acknowledge it.
3. I wish we could stop talking about what's wrong with this
file.
4. I wish people of good conscience and sensibility would not
react to the ill-manners and loutish behavior of a few by
picking up their marbles and leaving. We put an end to evil by
opposing it or by living the good, not by fleeing.
You need not combat the uncivilized in the file. Rather set
the higher tone.
5. I wish that women could understand that because we discuss
women's issues it doesn't mean that male viewpoints are invalid,
female viewpoints superior and that the expression of different
viewpoints doesn't necessarily imply the invalidity of others.
When there is a conflict of opinions or an issue which is
difficult, it can be useful to really hear what those who are on
the otherside see. Take the innocuous example of "Don't call me
girl". (I know it can be quite a volitile one, but you must
admit that there are bigger threats in issues of clear
discrimination, spouse abuse, or rape. This is at least safer
for all concerned.)
In such a discussion women explain why it is that they find
certain terms to be hurtful. This is good. it helps to raise the
consciousness of everyone regarding the harm that they can
unintentionally do. On the other hand, men may explain why they
use the terms and how they were intended and why that intent was
positive rather than negative. Often in such a discussion, it is
said that the men are denying the validity of the perceived
insult. Yet there is another view. The men could be saying "I
see how you thought I meant it and I'll be more careful. Here's
what I really meant." to which women *could* reply "Ah, that's
quite different. I'll try to remember that and consider it
next time someone says something similar."
In that context both could explain their conflicting views
without denying the validity of the other. Both could try to
adapt to the behavior of the other. Too often though, the
reality is that because this is a WomanNotes file the female
perspective is taken as definitive, and really understanding the
male perspective is not considered a goal. Notice however that
the intent and perspective of men on a "woman's issue" can
readily be a woman's issue itself. If you understand the
"other side" it may change things for you a lot.
The male view is definitely not superior to the female view on
any of the issues in this file, but it is often an integral part
and understanding it is necessary to understanding the whole
issue. If we are to change the world we must know what the world
is really like, what the problems are, and what the possible
solutions for those problems are.
JimB.
|
| 335.27 | Could we try some kindness? | VICKI::BULLOCK | Living the good life | Tue Jun 16 1987 15:29 | 44 |
| Excellent note, Jim (.26)!
This file is one of the ones I try to read each day. When I entered
it, I had the idea that it would be mainly women discussing womens'
issues, and men contributing as they wanted to. I tend to want
to read/write/respond to topics that deal with men and women relating
to each other, our differences and our similarities, why we can't
agree on certain issues, why we feel threatened by certain things,
likes, dislikes, etc. I had hoped to see more men and women talking
together about a subject instead of arguing about HOW it was said.
I had hoped that by all of us talking together, we would get to
understand each sex a little better. (For example, I was amazed
to learn that many men hate being stared at just as much as I do!)
But sadly, I've seen too much bashing happening.
As a infrequent noter on this file, I have felt in the past that
my notes and answers were frivilous or not important; I wouldn't
note for that reason. And that feeling came mainly from women,
believe it or not. One day I was having a bad time with PMS, and
feeling desperate. I got in here and found a "PMS" topic--my wish
was to get some comfort and help from it, and a way of dealing with
men better on days like that. But I actually found more help, advise,
and comfort from MENNOTES on it.
Although there have been some out and out cruel attacks by some
men in this file as well as women, they are fortunately few. I,
too, would like to see a bit less of the "Are you crazy?? I'm
RIGHT--you're not" attitude, and a bit more understanding. Or
if not that, then silence--to read, and reflect that some people
are different from you, and don't hold the same beliefs.
Someone said something earlier about this being mainly geared to
white-upper-middle-class-heterosexuals; could be. But if that's
so, let's not bash lesbians or gays, or housewives, or male nurses,
ok? This file, like our country, is based on freedom of choice.
Sorry this is so long-winded. I got carried away! This is a good
conference, and I hope it stays. I'd just like to see us all think
first, and note later.
Good luck,
Jane
|
| 335.28 | all this and a title too? | WEBSTR::RANDALL | Bonnie Randall Schutzman | Tue Jun 16 1987 15:35 | 109 |
| What did I expect from womannotes when I started reading it?
First, what I didn't expect: I didn't expect a safe environment
and I didn't expect to get the warm fuzzies. My experience of life
has been that it doesn't quite work that way.... Growth is painful.
I did expect a forum where I could participate in discussions about the
issues relating to being a woman working for DEC. I expected to
be forced to face my own societally determined attitudes and replace
them with honest values of my own. I expected a call to do actual
work toward fixing the company and the world, not to just talk about
it and improve communications.
I had a vague impression that the issues would probably include
discussing what to do about job discrimination at DEC, dealing with
specific job situations and conditions such as harrassment, keeping
sane while coping with both family and job, maintaining nonconventional
households such as lesbian or communal arrangements, helping put
together women's forums and conferences, arranging group trips to
various women's events of national importance, posting news about
important accomplishments by and awards made to women, pleading for
action about women's legislation, discussing the political implications
of everyday matters such as what we read, whether we shave, and whether
we kowtow to men, exchanging help and advice for how to deal with our
anger . . .
Sorry, I'll have to stop, I ran out of breath.
What did I find different?
Well, frankly, and not intending to offend anyone, I didn't expect
to find a note requesting advice about beauty parlors. Nor did I
expect 20 or so answers to it. An appeal to boycott beauty parlors
because they expoit women and encourage them to beg for men's approval,
yes. Choosing one, no.
I expected more action than notice of a few DEC talks and a couple
music festivals. Where are the voting drives, appeals for letters
to congress, feminist conferences and items from radical newsletters?
I didn't find the positive expressions of strong opinion that I
expected. I was surprised to find some of the most obvious truisms --
why is it that no one is willing to accept there is sexual harrassment
at DEC? -- expressed with such timidity. I was even more surprised
that so many women seemed willing to back down from their statements at
the first whiff of disapproval. Granted, some of the people of
both sexes are pretty abrasive, but the fact that I'm loud and
sometimes forget to be polite when I feel strongly about something
doesn't make the person I'm arguing with wrong.
Pardon me while I shout for a moment:
WE DO NOT ****HAVE**** TO SPEND OUR TIME JUSTIFYING OUR EXPERIENCE AND
PERCEPTION TO MEN OR TO EACH OTHER. WE CAN ****CHOOSE**** NOT TO.
There. Now I feel better. Thank you. Now on with our show.
Many of us choose to seek the approval of the men around us because
we've been trained that when men are present, we defer to them. We
don't continue with our own activities and interests until the menfolk
have granted their permission by either agreeing with us or going away.
We don't need to be that way.
We can discuss, plead, rant, rave, argue, present, analyze, and
question according to the merits of the topic, as our own independent
human beings. We can choose to look at what a particular note says and
answer the valid points it raises or ignore it according to its
irrelevance, without regard to the sex of the person who wrote it. We
can choose not to respond to baiting. We can challenge men who use
sexist language and then take offense at being labelled sexist.
The recent note about women and anger pointed out that many, many of us
don't feel comfortable expressing anger. We often bottle it up, turn
the other cheek, and then complain behind the offender's back rather
than to his face. This is counterproductive at best. We need to
recognize that anger is a valid emotion and learn to express that anger
in constructive ways, ways that encourage those who disagree with us to
listen to us.
What would I change?
I would like to see more and different views expressed. While this file
has a reputation for being stridently feminist and man-hating, it
certainly doesn't deserve its reputation. It's more like reading the
letters column of Ladies' Home Journal. Too many people appear to feel
that because someone disagrees with an opinion they express, that means
they aren't wanted personally and their opinions aren't wanted either.
I would also like to see us women encourage each other more. We
can try to be more careful about how we phrase our arguments, try
to avoid using loaded words that sound more unkind than we intend
them to. We can try to listen more openly to opinions we don't
agree with. If we want to preach, we can go to Soapbox (or to PTL;
I hear they've got a couple of openings). Let's leave womannotes
for discussion, for trying to understand each other's opinions,
whether woman to woman or seeing the man's side.
As far as I'm concerned, every bit of anger, painful exploration of the
past, present hurt feelings, bewilderment, and frustration was worth it
when I got male from a man who had disagreed violently with me saying
that thanks to my explanation of a painful personal experience, he had
come to understand the problem better and even changed his views
slightly.
It may not be much, but progress is made by such tiny steps.
--bonnie
|
| 335.37 | I don't think we need to practice our skills here | SPIDER::PARE | | Wed Jun 17 1987 11:03 | 22 |
| >>As a result of comments that have been made in this file in the last
>>few months, and remarks made to me by mail as well I would like to
>>ask three questions of those who write and those who just read this
>>conference.
1. What are your expectations of a conference like womannotes?
I expected womannotes to be like every other notes conference. I
expected that the woman who participated here would be able to
hold their own without whinning, complaining, expecting special
treatment and requiring protection. Maybe "holding your own" is
more difficult in an environment where how you look and what you
wear doesn't matter. I'll probably get creamed for this but I am
disappointed in the approach and reactions of a lot of us.
2. Is the conference doing everything it could do/you expected it could
do when you first started writing/reading?
I expected nothing more from the conference itself than an opportunity
to openly communicate with other participants about woman's issues.
Mary
|
| 335.38 | warning:this note contains some insensitive material | CADSYS::SULLIVAN | Karen - 225-4096 | Wed Jun 17 1987 11:17 | 44 |
|
>1. What are your expectations of a conference like womannotes?
I expected a place where I could voice my concerns as a women. I
do not consider myself a "rabid" feminist, since I feel that there can
not be degrees of feminism (it's like being sort of pregnant). A
feminist is one who is concerned about equality between people. A
feminist values differences between people. Even when I can get very
upset over issues such as abortion, I can take time to worry about
getting a good haircut. I want to look good for *me*.
>2. Is the conference doing everything it could do/you expected it could
>do when you first started writing/reading?
Well, I expected it to cover a lot of areas and it has. Some I'm not
interested in, and others I am. I am unhappy with the amount of time
that is spent trying to analyze this conference. We must have a half
dozen notes on what's wrong with this conference, and how should it be
run. Some of it is valid, but I think we're starting to get
repetitive. I'm tired of hearing about people who are upset and have
left. I'm sorry, but it seems like a childish reaction to complain
that things aren't going your way and that you're leaving. Why tell us
if you really aren't reading any more so what good is our replying? Are
you just looking for people to send you mail begging you to stay. Is
this an ego trip?
>3. If the answer to question 2 is no - how would you change the conference
>to help it fufill it's potential better?
I would hope that if people are unhappy with what's being talked about
that they would instigate some topics themselves. I'm sure that there
are enough people who will participate, since we all have different
interests. Let's stop being so sensitive. We have covered a lot of
emotional topics here, so it should be expected that there will be
flames and "bashing" happening. We're all human. Why should we be
such perfect people just because we're DEC employees.
>Please answer either in this note or by mail. I would expecially appreciate
>hearing from women who have some dissatisfactions, and would like to hear
>from women who left the conference.
Bonnie, why are you being so one-sided? I think you should hear from
women who are reasonably satisfied and are still in the conference.
You will get the impression that nothing in this conference is
worthwhile if you only ask for opinions of those who are dissatisfied.
...Karen
|
| 335.39 | | DINER::SHUBIN | Time for a little something... | Wed Jun 17 1987 14:52 | 73 |
|
First, what happened to .29-.35? That'll teach me to not read this
everyday.
Here's another man's point of view on this conference.
What were my expectations?
When I first heard of this conference, I expected it to be more a forum
on radical feminist issues. I consider myself a fairly radical feminist
(especially for a man), and wanted to learn, to discuss issues that I
can't discuss with the people I interact with everyday. One problem
with this forum being more radical is that it's only likely that
like-minded people would be involved, and while there'd be discussion,
it would also be preaching to the converted.
I didn't expect to find certain discussions that are here, but it's
fine with me that they are here. Even if some people don't consider
this to be a "safe environment" for women to discuss matters, it is
something of a common ground, an electronic gathering place for
friends, and so a safe place to ask questions of a wide audience.
Does womannotes meet my expectations
Reading and writing notes here has taught me alot, and I've met some
people that I wouldn't have otherwise. That's good.
I expected a little uneasiness at having men participate, but I've
tried not to hold back when I have a comment to make. I do spend far
more time writing notes in this file than any other that I'm involved
in because it's more important and because there seems to be a greater
probability of misunderstanding and flaming.
Womannotes does not meet all of my expectations. My other main
expectation of this conference is that there'd be some action taken on
various important topics. As Maggie's note says, we can change the
world, and I'd like to see that happen (on many fronts, not just
feminist issues). One way is certainly to have discussions, because we
can all learn (if we're open to it), and propagate the new knowledge
and ideas. Another way is to explicitly do something -- get petitions
circulating [again] for on-site daycare, look into
equal-pay-for-equal-work, etc.
As I mentioned another time, I'm involved in the Human Factors Steering
Group this year. Our members are DEC employees who are interested in
human factors (user interfaces, etc), and one of our goals is to spread
the word. We have developed a course to introduce the issues to people,
and are developing a "survival kit" to distribute to people, so they
have the basic resources at hand.
This notesfile is a similar organization -- an ad hoc collection of
people interested in women's issues which can [I think "should"] teach
people who aren't interested enough to read notes. "Teaching" can be
sponsoring talks by insiders or outsiders on what sexual discrimination
is and how it affects everyone involved, working with personnel to
assure that women get the pay they deserve, etc.
What could be changed?
My biggest complaint is the same as some other people's: Stop
bickering. Notes isn't conversation. Little problems have to be dropped
or dealt with by mail (or in person). Petty bickering clutters up the
conference so much that I skip over whole discussions because I don't
have the energy to figure out which notes to ignore.
If people want to be idiots and write notes or replies just to annoy
others, ignore them. Or talk to them in person. Or slash their car
tires. Endless discussions here on the 27 possible interpretations of
an ambiguous comment may be interesting, but they're not why were here
(and this is from someone who loves to hunt for the 28th
interpretation!)
|
| 335.40 | General Stuff on Womannotes | CSC32::JOHNS | God is real, unless declared integer | Wed Jun 17 1987 14:57 | 47 |
| My, my. Well, I'm doing this off the top of my head, so bear with
me, please.
I like this conference. I expected it to deal with issues of
discrimination, relationships, rape, trust, alternative lifestyles,
support, events, etc.
I have found that in many cases, my expectations have been met.
I have never considered leaving this file.
Regarding the things that I would change:
I am a chauvanist. Sorry, Jim, but I guess my view is that women's
ideas should carry more weight than men's in this file. I do, however,
enjoy the input of many of the men, and I agree that there are ways
to disagree more amiably.
I would have less discussion about the file itself.
I would suggest that women ignore comments meant to provoke them
and instead pay more attention to the issue and their own thoughts
or to the people who genuinely have questions to ask so that they
can further their understanding.
Jimmy and Rosalyn Carter recently wrote a book that nearly broke
up their marriage because of their difference in perceptions of
the same events. They solved the problem by adding a "J" or "R"
in front of every section. Why is it that we feel we have to agree
with everything said or to make the other person agree with us?
If one person writes something, their name is at the top; it does
not mean that the rest of us have the same opinions.
The best part about this file, for me, is the learning I receive
from the notes which are painful to write. I do not want to do
anything to discourage people from writing those notes.
I do not learn much from finding out which hairdresser is good in
Massachusetts. (as someone else said, 'please, no offense')
I am not interested in political things, but if someone else is,
then go at it. Enter those notes. I will probably end up skimming
them, if not reading them anyway, as I do most notes in this file :-).
By all means hang in there. Remember also that if you have a
misunderstanding with someone that you can take it offline (to MAIL)
as well.
Carol
|
| 335.42 | From a reader | VINO::MCARLETON | Reality; what a concept! | Wed Jun 17 1987 19:35 | 56 |
| > I would like to ask three questions of those who write and those who just
> read this conference.
I am one of the men who just read. I wish I had the time to read all
of the notes but I go two weeks behind last November and I have yet to
catch up.
1. What are your expectations of a conference like womannotes?
I did not know what to expect. I hoped that I would see discussion
from women on many issues that I was interested in and some that I
never thought of. I expected to see many opinions expressed that I
would not agree with. I hoped the the file would be free enough of
controversy that many new feelings and ideas would be expressed.
2. Is the conference doing everything it could do/you expected it could
do when you first started writing/reading?
I am disturbed by the "let's find the *ONE* answer" mentality in this
conference and most others. I see too much of the "standard answer"
coming from both sexs. I know that there are many people who have
very different ideas (including myself) who do not write them in here
because it would tend to fly in the face of the "standard explanation".
I agree with JimB in .26. Too many of the "male" explanations are only
interpreted as merely 'sexist' ideas and ignored. Why is it assumed
that I have something to gain from listening to the female perspective
but women have nothing to gain from hearing my perspective?
3. If the answer to question 2 is no - how would you change the conference
to help it fufill it's potential better?
The very last thing I would do is what was suggested in .17. Building
an official platform for womennotes and voting on it would assure
that no one would ever present a dissenting opinion and the conference
would degrade into the "head nodding" people have experienced elsewhere.
I think there may be too much of that here already.
This conference will fulfill it's potential only if people are willing
enough to hear all sides of each issue and every idea of what is
wrong and how it can be fixed.
I feel that it is almost certain that out there somewhere is the
truth, and it is almost in our grasp, but it also significantly
opposed to the current conservative and radical thinking. We
will see the truth someday, but not until we are willing to give
up our strongly held (and wrong) beliefs.
There is nothing that find as disappointing as having a discussion
with an intelligent person, and hearing only other people's words
coming out of their mouths.
In search an independent idea,
MJC O->
|
| 335.43 | Thankyou | STUBBI::B_REINKE | the fire and the rose are one | Wed Jun 17 1987 22:31 | 13 |
| Wow!
Thankyou very much to all of the wonderful people who have taken
the time to answer this note, either in print or by mail. I am
completely overwhelmed! I will try to come up with some sort of
synthesis over the weekend - but am currently too busy at work to
have much time to devote to all of this.
and in answer to one earlier note - I never meant the thrust of
my base note to be negative - positive answers are equally encouraged
(and appear to be in the majority).
Bonnie
|
| 335.44 | Charting a course through rocky waters | QUARK::LIONEL | We all live in a yellow subroutine | Thu Jun 18 1987 00:26 | 79 |
| I hope I'm not too late on this topic. I've been thinking about
it over the past few days, and didn't want to "write from the hip",
so to speak.
1. What are my expectations of a conference like WOMANNOTES?
I expected a conference dedicated to topics on and about women.
I expected women to be more active in this conference than in
other conferences. I expected healthy discussions without rancor,
and I expected a wide variety of viewpoints, supported by a
caring family of noters.
2. Is the conference doing everything it could do/I expected it
could do when I first started writing/reading.
Everything, no. A lot, yes. There is a wealth of good
information, unfamiliar viewpoints, lively discussion, honest
revelations scattered throughout this conference. Unfortunately,
the good stuff tends to get buried among the attacks and counter-
attacks, whining, defensiveness, and endless bickering on what
this conference ought or ought not to be.
I never expected this conference to be a form of political action
committee, and I consider it unrealistic of anyone to expect
it would be. I have been exposed to viewpoints that I have
never seen before, and it has really changed me. I have always
been respectful of women, but now I have a much deeper
understanding of what it's like to be female in our society.
(I'm puzzled by the frequent gripes about a bias against
homosexuality in the conference - I see no evidence of such.)
3. How would I change the conference to help fulfill its potential
better?
Potential is a good word. This conference has tremendous
potential. But that potential is restricted by the fighting
and irrelevancy that permeates the conference. I believe, and
I've said so before, that this conference would greatly benefit
from active, consistent and firm moderation.
Until recently, the moderation of this conference has been
virtually non-existant. Only in recent months has anyone started
to pay attention to getting it under control. To me, moderation
means vigilance against personal attacks, gentle but firm guidance
to keep discussions on track, and similar guidance for topics
that are better suited to other conferences. I feel that if
the members are aware that the moderators are watching, and
that they care enough about the conference to keep it on its
intended course, that a lot of the abuse and clutter would
fade away.
And this brings me to the topic of this conference supposedly
being a "safe place". Safe from what or whom? If "safe" means
safety from unwarranted personal attacks, and safety from those
who desire to disrupt, then I'm all for it. If "safe" means
insulation from those who may have dissenting views, or those
who are viewed as "the enemy", then I think there's no place
for that. I maintain that MENNOTES and HUMAN_RELATIONS, each
of which have active moderation, are far "safer" than
WOMANNOTES ever has been.
It is a tribute to those who stay active in WOMANNOTES that
this conference has been as successful as it has, because too
many of us share the same visions to allow it to fail. But
it has vast untapped potential, much of which could be helped
by reminding certain noters that persuasion is much more effective
than attacking.
And to those noters who have "left the conference" goes my deepest
sympathy, for they are the ones most in need of what this conference has
to offer.
In closing, I wish to say that I will continue to vigorously object
to any trend towards separatism, for that will truly undermine all
that we hope to achieve.
In togetherness,
Steve
|
| 335.45 | more answers to the three questions | GVAADG::DONALDSON | the green frog leaps... | Thu Jun 18 1987 09:04 | 35 |
| Okay, a small amount of feedback from me, instead of being a silent
reader as usual:
1. What are your expectations of a conference like womannotes?
- I expect the conference to discuss issues important to women,
and for the discussion to involve both women and men.
2. Is the conference doing everything it could do/you expected it could
do when you first started writing/reading?
- more or less. I'm learning.
3. If the answer to question 2 is no - how would you change the conference
to help it fufill it's potential better?
- why not create a conference women-only-womannotes if there's
a need for it? Its existence wouldn't have a bad effect on
this one. Variety is usually a good solution for problems like
this.
And finally two small items that I can't think of a good place for:
- on this node we have a batch job which, late at night, extracts
the latest items in all the conferences you're interested in
and MAILs them to you. So that in the morning you can read the latest
conference notes without using the net - much quicker. It also
means you don't get out of date. If anybody is interested, let me
know.
- there is a possible source of transatlantic misunderstanding in
the use of abbreviations. The one which fooled me for a while
until an american friend set me right was SO. Could it be
SomeOne? Or (rather inappropriately) Sex Object? No, it
means Significant Other. Ah well its all part of the
rich sweep etc...
Thanks, all you womannoters, John.
|
| 335.46 | clarification and apology | DEBIT::RANDALL | Bonnie Randall Schutzman | Thu Jun 18 1987 10:38 | 39 |
| Let me try to clarify my remark about beauty parlors in my original
response.
First of all it was quite peripheral to my overall statement.
Second, I meant exactly what I said: I was surprised by a different
attitude than what I was expecting.
I was not angry, I was not offended, I did not feel other topics
were being slighted, and I don't care about the political aspects
of beauty enough to want to start a discussion of it at this time.
Nor did I mean to belittle those women who were interested in the
haircuts. I was surprised, nothing more and nothing less.
I do not think my own expectations constitute the grounds for judging
whether a particular note is a valid topic. Even if I had been
angry or whatever, that wouldn't have made the discussion wrong,
it would only have made my expectations mistaken.
Third: I should have said how much this conference has meant to me,
how much I have learned from the wide variety of points of view
expressed in this file, and how glad I am for this chance to probe my
own feelings and experiences more deeply. However, the base questions
didn't specifically ask about the good things of the conference so I
didn't think to mention them. (Holdover from graduate school days
answering essay questions -- Answer the question the professor asked,
not the one you wish she had asked!)
Fourth: I apologize to the people I inadvertently offended.
And last but not least, to borrow a phrase: The absolute **LAST**
thing I want is for womannotes to become a feminist forum. We're
all in this together, male and female, young and old, secretary
and engineer. I love the difference. I'm glad we can talk about
so many things.
Here's to many more long and wonderful discussions!
--bonnie
|
| 335.48 | All for One, and One for all... | ALIEN::MCANULTY | Fight Crime --- Shoot First | Thu Jun 18 1987 18:08 | 58 |
|
Figured I'd get here sometime soon.....
I've read all the replies, and I find many of them interesting.
1. expectations.... None really
2. Like/Dislike
It has it's ups and downs....
3. What to be done....
Lets be objective. Think of a world of all women.
Sound nice ??? There is still gonna be problems
politically, racist.....Why ?? Because thats the
way we are. Listen to what men say, listen to what
other woman say. You might not like what they say,
because they don't support your thinking, BUT, that's
the pot calling the kettle black (did I say that right)!
Because, you don't support his/her thinking.
I find both sexes, have this urge to CRUSH, the opponent.
We're all competitors, we fought off others for our
jobs, spouses, houses, friends, and the car you drove
to work.
It took me a long time to get use to the idea, that
you can't knock down a stone wall, with a fist, but
with many people, and a solid structure (i.e. a pole,
you can knock the wall down. At first you might have
to knock out pieces, but eventually it will weaken and
give in.
I hear too many thinkers, and talkers, but know doers....
maybe if people started doing things about their
problems, others my start respecting their wishes, and
not feel like we have a hypochondriac, that just likes
to complain.
I made a public apology to many people in this conference.
I've made mistakes, but if I didn't, I wouldn't be working
here, I'd be running my own company.
What I ask is, if someone says something you don't like
think where they maybe coming from, if it's a moral
issue, don't get involved, like I did at one time.
It's not worth telling one person how low they are,
to lose a simple relationship such as we have here,
or to ruin a close relationship because someone assumes
to much.
Remember, DEC has the best Networking and Communications
there is.....lets keep it that way......
Mike
|
| 335.49 | Never is a long time... | MARCIE::JLAMOTTE | Somewhere Over the Rainbow | Thu Jun 25 1987 19:19 | 39 |
| 1. What are your expectations of a conference like womannotes?
I contributed to Womannotes for two reasons...first
because I had experiences and feelings that I wanted
to share and secondly I wanted to listen to other
women's experiences and hear their feelings. I got
more than I bargained for in that it became somewhat
like group therapy and the participation became
necessary (daily) and it brought about feelings and
emotions I was not aware of.
2. Is the conference doing everything it could do/you expected
it could do when you started writing/reading.
I guess it did more than I expected. I never admitted to
myself that I had been a victim of sexism. I wonder why.
I left womannotes with an emotional 'swan song' when the
light bulbs started going off. Then when I couldn't get
my point across and I flamed someone. I felt it was not the
place for me so I bowed out. Although I was not criticized
publicly for my note announcing my departure, I have seen
some negative comments around this type of a note. My comment
is we encourage introductions and recently there was a note
about people who do not say 'good-bye'. Just a thought.
3. In a mail message to Bonnie, I indicated I would like a more
structured environment...but over the past few days I have seen
some excellent interaction. We have many personalities with
many styles. To have a conference where everyone agrees and
there is consensus on all subjects...I really don't want that.
So, I am back...I am using the Extract /Unseen command which speeds
up the process of reading notes and also allows me to cool down
when there are notes which do not reflect my viewpoint.
I look forward to debate, to agreement and most of all to
sisterhood...
Joyce
|
| 335.50 | Beware - Radical Feminist | CANDY::PITERAK | | Tue Jun 30 1987 15:14 | 29 |
|
I am one of those women who add and remove womensnotes on a regular
basis. It is usually "off" my list more than "on".
When I originally heard about womennotes I was extremely pleased...until
I found out that men were invited to participate. I spend enough
time "educating" men about feminist issues..it would be nice to
have someplace not to have to do that. I already participate in
two core groups, valuing differences seminars, political coalitions,
etc.,etc.,etc.
I believe men's opinions on feminist issues are just that...MEN's
opinions....I've heard them all my life and I can go anywhere and
hear their opinions about who I am and how I should live my life.
They seem to be more than willing to share their opinions.
I'm into just sharing my experiences, knowledge and "frustration"
with other women. I want to know how THEY handle their own lives,
not how men think they should.
YES Virginia I am one of the dreaded RADICAL FEMINISTS - big deal.
Now who does that threaten???
Now if this conference was titled "women & mens" notes...I'd have
no complaints. No false promises would be implied.
Flora the very RADICAL feminist (at least as far as this notes file
is concerned)
|
| 335.51 | | HARRY::HIGGINS | Citizen of Atlantis | Tue Jun 30 1987 15:48 | 5 |
| re .50
thanks for being so openminded....
|
| 335.52 | Another one! | BRUTUS::MTHOMSON | Why re-invent the wheel | Tue Jun 30 1987 15:51 | 7 |
| Another Radical Feminist...takes one to know one...
<-2> Thanks Flora...I needed that...
MaggieT
|
| 335.53 | | ARMORY::CHARBONND | | Wed Jul 01 1987 09:40 | 15 |
| I,ve now read 52 replies here, 39 replies in 337, and the
commentary note in Mennotes. Whew !
I expected to learn. I have. I expected to be understood,
misunderstood, baffled, instructed, villified, and plain
told to go to hell. I have.
I still check in every day. The variety of topics and
viewpoints here is unmatched elsewhere. Most (the magic
word) people here are patient with other noters, male
and female. It sometimes seems that a few contributors
would rather this were Womynnotes or maybe Scumnotes.
I for one am glad that they do not prevail. This con-
ference fills a big hole that H_R and Mennotes won't
go near.
|
| 335.54 | This is radical? | FGVAXU::DANIELS | | Thu Jul 02 1987 10:50 | 40 |
| When I first saw this file, I expected a forum where women could
express themselves openly and without having to expend energy
explaining what is terribly obvious to ourselves, without having to
defend positions that make sense. If a person has trouble understanding
an issue, discussion is one thing, but too often there's nonsensical
confrontation coupled with a lack of awareness of our own egocentric
circles.
I'm interested in hearing more from a woman's point of view, not as
interpreted by the media, but as a frank and open exchange of what
we're facing and how we're dealing.
It's not so much that I would exclude men from posting to womannotes
(even were that possible! ;-)), as to ask why some feel such a need to
dominate (why don't some of the sillier men post their silly notes in
the men's notes file, for example?) One of the underlying assumptions
of this society is that men define the "norm", thereby defining women
as "other." Freud wasn't any too subtle and came right out and
articulated an already accepted premise of much of society.
I'd like a file where discussion amongst women is the norm. Sure it
would be boring if we all sat around and agreed with each other, but I
see no danger of that. I think there might be offerings from some more
women, whatever the flavor of their political/sexual/economic/profes-
sional positions, if it was more a discussion by women, in a forum
where we set the agenda.
Don't get me wrong, some of my best friends are men! ;-). But I do want
to hear the voices of women and share parts of their lives. And
although in theory it's wonderful to have a full and open dialogue with
men included, it often turns out to be with men dominating. Because
that's all too very frequently the norm.
As for radical feminism, I don't see that as anathema. In order for
change to be effected, we need people with vision who see alternatives
to the present and share them. We need a free exchange of ideas and a
forum in which to air them. Not all radical ideas are going to be
workable the first time, but that's the point of discussion.
- Paula
|
| 335.55 | exit | HPSCAD::WALL | I see the middle kingdom... | Thu Jul 02 1987 12:01 | 9 |
|
The reason silly men don't post silly notes in MENNOTES is --
-- they do. The MENNOTES community does no less frothing at the
mouth, I've noticed.
People have foibles. Not men, not women, PEOPLE.
DFW
|