Conference turris::womannotes-v1

I don't find myself watching what I say, but maybe that's because I'm familiar
enough with the people I associate with to know they won't take it "wrong" or
analyze it.  Or maybe I just don't care if they do take it wrong, because I'm
sure enough of myself.  There are both men and women that I associate with, at
different times or the same time, and I never find myself especially watching
what I say.  Of course, I don't often end up saying things I "shouldn't", but
if the topic turns to x, I'll talk about x too!

What irks me is when the men I associate with feel they have to watch what THEY
say.  Saying a "bad word" and then saying "oh, sorry" or "pardon my French" or
something similar annoys me.  Either say it and don't apologize for it, or don't
say it at all!  Especially when I've already indicated that it doesn't bother
me.

Jill

    I guess maybe I have a problem here too -- I'm not quite sure what this
    man said that you felt meant you had to be virgin? and watch everything
    you say? 
    
    In that context, it seems like "Now I know why Eric hired you" could be
    anything from a veiled accusation that you're sleeping with "eric"
    (whoever that is) to a compliment on "eric"'s good judgement in hiring
    a woman with such an open mind and clear insight into the problems of
    life. 

    The most likely interpretation is that it's a sexist remark on this
    man's part. In what way is that YOUR fault??????? 
    
    --bonnie, puzzled

    
    	I just went downstairs for lunch.  I was really in the mood
    for a hot dog (though god knows why - they usually taste horrible),
    and the only ones they had were the foot long.  Well, sure enough
    someone walks by and makes a comment that it looked obscene.  Of
    course I thought so too and said so.  The reply was "I know what
    you're thinking of."  Now, if I were a guy and agreed that it looked
    obscene...would I have gotten that same reply?  
    
    	I guess women are still supposed to be (act?) nieve and when
    one says things which imply that she is not, then does it have to
    mean she's a sleeze?  Sometimes it really seems like that's how
    it's perceived.
    
    	Also, it seems to me that a "career" woman is supposed to be
    all work - professionalism - and the guys can joke around all they
    want and still be considered professional.  
    
    
    							jean
    
                         
    
    							

    I think in general we all could be more careful about what we say.
    Certainly, among friends/co-workers with whom we're friendly, there's
    some flexibilty about what's appropriate, but I was really shocked
    at what happened in a meeting I was in yesterday.  I was the only
    women, and  someone couldn't remember something, and the meeting-leader
    said, "Memory's the second thing to go," and then followed it with
    a real *lusty* laugh so there was no mistaking what the "first thing"
    was.  In another context, I probably wouldn't have been offended,
    but it seemed completely inappropriate to me in a meeting.  And
    I felt unable to say how I did feel about it.  I wonder if other
    women have been in similar situations: you're offended but feel
    unable to say so.  Are there any brave souls out there who actually
    have spoken up?  If so, how did it go?
    
    Justine

    Re .6:
    
    MIXED COMPANY??? 
    
    Do you mean to state that women are intrinsically more sensitive
    than men? That they need to be protected from uncouth remarks (which,
    obviously, men are more prone to make)?
    
    Grrr... It has always annoyed me when women are presumed to require
    additional shelter, protection, and so forth. It repeats the old
    double standard. Men are beasts and women are saints. Men like vulgar
    humor, women don't. Men can be crude and offensive to each other,
    but not to women.
    
    Please, please don't use the term "mixed company" to guide the types of
    conversation that should be permitted. People - either sex - who enjoy
    crude humor, profanity, puns, etc. should have the courtesy to refrain
    from indulging in it in the presence of those - either sex - whom they
    *know* to dislike it. And persons who dislike it should make their
    dislike known - politely; otherwise they can hardly expect it to
    stop. (Of course, politeness doesn't always work, but it's worth
    a try.)

    As for the general topic of what to do when someone drops an
    unpleasant-sounding innuendo: My favorite response comes from Miss
    Manners. While I haven't had the nerve to try it (nor, fortunately,
    much opportunity), she recommends simply asking, "Why, what do you
    mean by that?" in a non-threatening, rather naive tone.
    
    "Now I know why Eric hired you."
    
    "Why, what do you mean?"
    
    "Um, er, well, come on, *you* know..."
    
    "Actually, I don't. I thought he hired me because I'm a good software
    engineer. Why do you think he hired me?"

    "Um, er, never mind..."
    
    They may consider you a bad sport - but then, did you really want
    to impress such persons? Or they may come right out and explain,
    in which case you can set them straight. 

    Not perfect, but better than going home and snarling at the cat.

    -b

    This topic shows the reason why I don't socialize with my group
    (department) after work.  I went to lunch once and I really put
    my foot in my mouth.  People act differently after work (social
    hours) and tend to be more flippant, joking, and yes, crude.  But,
    people don't forget and they see you the next day in your suit and
    say, "are you the same person that went out last night?".
    
    I don't "have to" handle this because I don't choose to and that's
    MY problem.  If someone says something to me and I "take it" the
    wrong way, I think I am going to try the previous suggestion "what
    did/do you mean by that?"
    
    That's a good one and I like it.
                                    
    Cathy (who'd much rather stick to business and avoid personal comments)

>.4  and  someone couldn't remember something, and the meeting-leader
>    said, "Memory's the second thing to go," and then followed it with
>    a real *lusty* laugh so there was no mistaking what the "first thing"
>    was.  In another context, I probably wouldn't have been offended,
>    but it seemed completely inappropriate to me in a meeting.  

Feel welcome to flame back, but this does not strike me as being rude 
or inappropriate.  But you were there, I'm only seeing the words.

>been in similar situations: you're offended but feel unable to say so.  
>any brave souls who actually have spoken up?  

1971. University lecture, sex ed, 500 students, and the professor said
something about "liberated women getting abortions."  I stood up,
interrupted, and said approximately "humorous comments about liberated
women were not appropriate with people dying in alleys from amateur
abortions." It was a number 10 hard task, but looking back, I did it
because the insult was gross.  In fact, I didn't think about saying
something, astonishment propelled me. One doesn't tell crispy critter 
jokes while the forest is still burning. 

BUT, I am a little perturbed that a lot of us seem to be uncomfotable 
with sexual references and innudendo.

   re .4   *lusty laugh* seemed to be a comment about life; it was not 
   aimed at you so I'm missing the point.
 
   re .0  "now I know why eric hired you" was aimed and would make a lot 
   of us feel self conscious and turn on Ye Olde Word Watcher.

Many years ago, some sex education classes began with the students reciting
taboo words (both crude and anatomical), saying the words 20 times, with the
worthy purpose of desensitizing the words.  Removing their power.  What I
wonder is, why do so many comments, jokes, innuendos evoke a negative
response? 

	 because of an intent or disparagement felt behind them?  
	 because so much of sex itself is still taboo?

An observation from my experience: I know lots of women comedians 
who, because of their profession, have been totally desensitized to all 
sexual and scatalogical references.  They can say/hear *ANYTHING* to/from 
*ANYBODY.  And they find this *EXTREMELY LIBERATING* (as in words will 
never hurt me, you blanky blank!).  And they are quite good at telling 
an insult or demeaning comment from an un-aimed joke.  (.3  Re the long 
hot dog: They would promise to be gentle.)

Meigs  

    This reminds me a bit of the older woman character in Falstaff -
    who is kind of a archetype. The knowledgable older married woman
    - now a widow. She understands mens' lusts and is not constrained
    to hide her knowledge....it seems we have not delt with or incorporated
    this side of woman into our modern archetype.....is it possible
    for 'nice' (i.e. not casually or promiscuously sexually available
    to 'understand' (i.e. admit to knowledge of) off color remarks,
    jokes, and innuendos? My usual response to such remarks is to say
    that I am a married woman and have sons - i.e. of course I understand
    what they are talking about!
    
    Bonnie J

I always thought it went:

  Memory is the second thing to go.

  I forgot what the first thing was.

Martin

        JimB. commences to insert foot in mouth...
        
        Personally, I am not sure that concern about "mixed company" is
        necessarily sexist. It is a lot safer to joke about sexual
        matters with people who are not potential objects of one's own
        sexual interest, than with one in whom one might have an
        interest.
        
        That I might speak of certain things in the presence of
        heterosexual men, that I would be uneasy saying in front of
        women or homosexual men may indicate not that I think that women
        are weaker (or that gay men are), but that the potential for
        misunderstanding is higher.
        
        As it stands I personally am often LESS comfortable around men
        than women, but I can understand the issue. 
        
        To dig the old foot a little deeper into my mouth... I could
        easily read the "Now I know why Eric hired you." as saying that
        a woman who was willing to be herself and to be "one of the
        guys" is a moderately rare thing, and valuable. Of course it
        would depend on how the line was delivered. I would recommend
        against letting it bother you if possible. So long as we are
        always careful about what we say around members of the opposite
        sex and expect the worst of them we can never overcome the
        problems and limitations that are too common.
        
        Even amongst "the guys" we blow it and say something that was
        inappropriate. A hard lesson to learn (at least it was for ME)
        is that these things happen and if we focus on them we can make
        it much worse. If we let it show that the comment came off
        wrong, but shrug it off, the natural processes of interaction
        will often work the problem out.
        
        JimB.

re: 332.3
    
>    	I just went downstairs for lunch.  I was really in the mood
>    for a hot dog (though god knows why - they usually taste horrible),
>    and the only ones they had were the foot long.  Well, sure enough
>    someone walks by and makes a comment that it looked obscene.  Of
>    course I thought so too and said so.  The reply was "I know what
>    you're thinking of."  Now, if I were a guy and agreed that it looked
>    obscene...would I have gotten that same reply?  

The correct response is to look the guy straight in the eye and
say, with a straight face, "I'm afraid they were all out of tacos."

Martin.

    I went to a tech high school and was the 2nd woman to graduate from
    the electronics cluster there.  The first graduated two years before
    me.  Therefore I spent a LOT of time (all day, every day, every
    other week) in shop with them.  They were often crude and rude,
    sometimes purposefully so when I was around.  But something happened
    to me then....I began to talk dirtier than they did sometimes, to
    out-gross them so they would shut up.  Pretty soon I was at the
    top level of "innuendo & filthy pun" makers.  This had the desired
    effect of getting them to lay off me and let me do my work in peace
    (fortunately there were some people there who made decent lab
    partners), but when I left high school for college it took me a
    long time to unlearn these actions.  Sometimes, even now, I think
    of something disgustingly clever to say, but smile inwardly knowing
    it would do more harm than good to say it.  Maybe some people never
    choose to unlearn their activities because they don't feel it's
    necessary.  Some people get a jolt out of shocking others, or laughing
    at them at the onlooker's expense (like construction workers sometimes
    do).  But old habits die hard - and until people see a need to change
    their ways of thinking, or "make the jokes, laugh with everyone
    in a friendly way, and forget about who's there as we're all friends",
    then this awkward attempt at making gruff-and-chummy contact will
    be thwarted, and the gap between many men and women will never close.

    -Jody

We could be getting into "vibes" territory again. I can tell when a
coworker is making a dirty joke _with_ me, and when they're making one
_at_ me. Certainly the author of .0 felt it was _at_. Bonnie was right:
teach them, not you. In whatever way is best for you. The alternatives
are: Ms. Manners "naiveity", sincerity, and a corresponding comeback
to make them as violated as you felt (and remember to laugh after you
make it :-}). Any other styles that work?
	Mez

    Thank you for all the replies so far.  The Miss Manners Method of
    playing naive is a good ploy, and I will remember it if and when
    it happens again.
    
    As far as letting it bother me, it did only to the extent to ask
    other people's opinions.  I would NEVER take it out on my cats!
    ;-}
    

    I've used two methods, well, maybe more with variations.
    I like the "naivete'", but with the added fillip of pursuing it
    in the supposed desire to understand it. "Huh?" They'll try to shrug
    it off at this point. "No, I really want to know" "What did you
    mean??" etc. Pretty soon, the whole thing seems stupid to them,
    and with any luck, they'll remember how tacky it was.
    
    The other method I use (having been a schoolteacher helps - somehow,
    that "tone" of voice the teacher used when you were in trouble never
    leaves your memory - kinda like your mother using your middle name)
    
    is to say "Tacky, tacky, tacky" in that sing-song voice that
    immediately brings to mind "naughty, naughty, naughty".
    
    Dawn
    

    
    	I really wish I had more time to read these notes files.  They
    are so full of great advice.  And I don't want to seem like I'm
    not interested in what's going on in here, especially after I've
    written in myself.
    
    	Thanks for the TACO response...I'll have to remember that.
    
    	Playing "nieve" hits a nerve with me.  Probably because for
    so long I really was nieve and I felt like I was ridiculed for it.
    We're going back some years now to where I was around 13 and everyone
    else knew what was going on and I really didn't.  So, I was the
    one to pick on...  Unfortunately, it seems there still is that element
    today.
    

< re .14 by BOBBITT 


> I began to talk dirtier than they did sometimes, to
> out-gross them so they would shut up.  Pretty soon I was at the
> top level of "innuendo & filthy pun" makers.  

  You desensitized yourself so you were never in danger of swooning when 
some dimwit decided to get one up on you.  (That may seem an overstatement 
but a classmate once said something soooo raw to me I was not only 
speechless but dizzy.)

  Can you tell us, do you think because of your experience that you 
are less likely to take offense or exception to sexual references?
I think you would be far less likely to do this than a person who has 
never even said god damn it. 

  I could do well in a cuss out contest, and while I wouldn't dream of 
entering one, I'm glad to be a contenda. The fewer 'frightening things' in 
the world the better. And words can frighten.   Meigs

    I am less likely to take offense at what others say, but because
    I can "hear" all of the jokes - and understand them for the indecencies
    that they are - I seem to have this counter in my mind which clicks
    them off.  If someone has too much fun at my expense - whether I
    reacted openly or not - I tend to hold a grudge sometimes.  Maybe
    that's one way some people communicate, and I sometimes take it
    more seriously than I should....
    
    Also, I worked at a company a while ago that had lots of field service
    men (no, there were no field service women because, as the guys
    said, in order to be able to carry the equipment they'd have to
    be as big and ugly as a moose).  They didn't realize I caught on
    to much of what they were saying (particularly when prospective
    female secretarial hires came in the door).  But this had something
    to do with the whole "us vs. them" male comeraderie blue-collar
    thing that sometimes goes on.  Like construction workers.  Also,
    since I was not a lithe and lissome lass of size seven or less,
    I was never "manhandled" like a friend named Laurie in high school,
    two years younger, she was majoring in electronics and the guys
    would walk by and (uninvited) pat her on the bottom or squeeze her
    sides or whatever - and then the teacher would accuse her of trying
    to disrupt the class!).  Maybe I put on some weight to "insulate"
    myself from their potential actions - or maybe just to have more
    substance and feel more powerful.  I began dressing like the guys
    (jeans and plaid shirts), and didn't do my hair or makeup, and
    generally was "on-guard" all the time.  
    
    If I had it to do over - I'd do it different.  But my experience
    was definitely a two-edged sword.  Sometimes it brings more peace
    of mind not knowing some of the innuendos were ever made.  And,
    in a sometimes sexist world, it gets so hard to forgive so pervasive
    an "insult".
    
    -Jody
   

    	One should also allow for cultural differences. I gave a literal
    translation of a poster sponsored by the French government, and
    an American girl was visibly shocked. How much one should express
    judgement of a culture within a society may be a matter for debate,
    but from outside one should be very careful.