Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    
    Somehow, and I don't know this for sure, but I don't think
    (I hope not!) there are any fathers out there who are taking
    their daughters into the men's room "whilst" they do their
    thing.  As a male, I cannot explain why this wouldn't apply
    to little boys with mommy in the ladies room, but it would
    be the sorriest of judgements or rationalizing to take a
    young "girl-child" into the mens room, simply for this fact:
    
    Women do not have urinals.  Women are always behind a door,
    unless the restroom has been vandalized, like the majority of
    mens rooms are.  A little girl walking into a mens facility
    is going to see a lot more activity going on than a little
    boy in the ladies room.  I am talking strictly about the "act"
    which takes place behind a closed door.  I don't know that
    women may do other personal hygene matters beyond the door.
    As .0 related, the boy had to look "under" the door.  Upon
    which he should have been healthily cuffed about the head.  If
    the boy is displaying this type of curiosity "just once", either
    teach him to know better, or discontinue the accompaniment bit.
    
    Sherman

    Re .1, then what *do* you suggest single fathers (or divorced fathers
    without custody who have the child for the day, etc.) of small female
    children do?  When thinking of some of the women's rooms I've been
    in in malls, in the city, etc., I'd much rather have my small daughter
    see a man going to the toilet (after all it is a natural act) than
    have her sent in alone to a ladies room.  Then, what if she doesn't
    come out for a long time?  What's the father supposed to do then?
     What if there is a long line and the little girl doesn't have the
    sense to make sure she gets her turn?
    
    I really don't see this issue has a big deal only in the sense that
    the more important than people's privacy while going to the toilet,
    is that their small children be safe.
    
    Lorna
    

RE: .1              -< You better think twice.... >-

    
    
    >Women do not have urinals.  Women are always behind a door,
    >unless the restroom has been vandalized, like the majority of
    >mens rooms are.  A little girl walking into a mens facility
    >is going to see a lot more activity going on than a little
    >boy in the ladies room.  I am talking strictly about the "act"
    >which takes place behind a closed door.  I don't know that
    >women may do other personal hygene matters beyond the door.
    

   1. Just what is it about "the act" (oh no!!!!) that is so awful ??

   2. What is the "a lot more" that a little girl is going to see that 
      she shouldn't know about anyway? Or are we ashamed of something?

      If the child is old enough to ask questions, answer them. What have you
      got to hide ? The *will* find out you know......

     

    Seems like it would be a big help for single parents of children
    and preadolescents if public places had restrooms which opened directly
    onto a corridor--the kid goes in to the single unit (toilet and
    sink) while mom or dad stands at the door.  Any problem, mom or
    dad can walk right in.  And there is no possibility of hassle from
    strangers.  
    
    Funny, when I was growing up, lots of bathrooms *were* like that!
    

    
    	If you're really worried about the little daughter seeing the
    	"natural act", then cover her eyes, when you go in.....
    	
    	An "8" year old in the ladies room....peeping tom's start
    	out young now adays 8*).....
    
    		Mike
    

    Tongue firmly in cheek --
    
    Maybe those coed bathrooms that ERA opponents are so worried about
    would solve this problem too!
    
    --bonnie

    
       First off, I must say that an 8 yr. old should be able to go
    to the bathroom in the men's room by himself.
    
       Being a father of a 4 yr. old daughter, I have been faced with
    this more than once.  I usually take my daughter places with me
    to give my wife a "break".  I always take my daughter into the men's
    room where I can keep an eye on her.  I would *never* ask a women
    to accompany my daughter in the ladies room because you do not know
    who you can trust.  Like someone stated in an earlier note, if I
    send my daughter in, and it takes her a long time to come out, I
    am not sure that I would have the "guts" to go in and make sure
    she is alright.  Although, she might just be playing in the sink!
    Generally, if my daughter and I are out alone, and I have to use
    the facility, I will wait.  If she needs to go also, then I send
    her into the stall, and go while she is behind "closed" doors. 
    I really don't think she notices that much of a difference in the
    ladies and mens room, because I have been taking her in ever since
    she has been born.  I suppose that this will stop here shortly.  Once
    she is old enough to understand the dangers of other people, I guess
    I will not worry so much.
    
       What, did I say that???  A father saying he will not worry so
    much about his little girl?                 
    
    bill
    

    Re .1,  Good grief!  What sorts of things *do* people do in the
    men's rooms that you frequent?
    
    I've never had any qualms taking my daughter (now 5�) into a men's
    room with me.  She isn't going to see anything there that she
    doesn't see at home.  She will presumably reach an age eventually
    where she becomes more of a "girl" and less of a "child", and
    courtesy would dictate sparing the *other* men in the men's room
    potential embarassment; I hope that by that time, she is old
    enough to go into a women's room by herself.
    
    As for peeking under the doors, it seems to me that that's
    unacceptable whether the perpetrator is a boy or a girl.

    
    Re: .2  What's wrong with getting a saleslady to escort the young
            girl to the restroom?  Sure, malls have some restrooms
            located separately from the stores, but if going to the
            trouble, why not seek out one of the major stores in the
            mall that has it's own facilities?  And besides, many of
            smaller stores in malls have their very own single unit
            restrooms located at the back of the store for their employees.
            If child went in unescorted and is taking too long, what is wrong
            with getting either then next person going in, the next
            person coming out, grabbing anyone of corresponding sex
            to assist you, and if worse comes to worse, knock on the
            door and announce your coming in, just like the janitors
            have to do before going into opposite gender, private
            facilities?  After all, the reason sounds valid to me.
    
    Re: .3  I hardly think any of the adult males are going to be ashamed
            in the presence of a little girl.  Hardly.  As for the act
            itself, it's more the upbringing than the actual act. I
            have seen some men swing right around without first replacing
            what was brought out and...
    
    Re: .8  (continued from above)...comparing strangers in a public
            restroom, to familiar family members in a home environment
            is poor contrast.  If an 8 year old boy's curiosity will
            actually cause him to look "under" a door, is a little
            8 year old girl to be any less inquisitive?  Taking from
            .3 above, most men's stalls don't have doors.  About
            the only time a male might become uncomfortable is when
            he is taking care of business #2 with an young girl in 
            sight.  We're not talking about what is so wrong about
            "the act" .3, we're talking morals.  Yeah, go ahead and say
            so what!  But is the mental imagery pleasant for the child?
            As for your question .8, on what sorts of things do people do
            in the men's rooms "I" frequent, get with .2 and find out
            why she would rather have her daughter see a man go to the
            toilet rather than be sent in alone to a ladies room.

    The "salesladies" (I will refrain from flaming you for that) have
    enough work of their own to do without excorting a million young girls
    to the restrooms!  Do you want them to leave their counters unprotected
    from shoplifters while they service people who aren't even customers?
    Do you think they aren't already running their feet aching and swollen
    trying to get all their own work done, so they have plenty of leisure
    to take your daughter to the bathroom? 
    
    --bonnie

    Gee whiz (:-)!  What's all the fuss about natural processes done
    with natural human parts?
    
    If a child has been brought up in a home where bodily functions
    are not treated as taboo or something to be done in top secrecy,
    then the child is not likely to be upset by not-totally-dressed
    people in a public restroom.  I've seen many fathers walk their
    little girls into men's rooms for the same reason that I took my
    two boys into the women's room:  they need supervision.  They don't
    know what to do when there's no paper or things are messy.  They
    learn thru meeting those situations when they're with you and seeing
    how you handle it.
    
    When are they old enough to go in by themselves?  School age, 5
    or 6, depending on the maturity of the child.  About 10 if you're
    in the Port Authority Bus Terminal!
                                        	- Dotsie

    When my oldest son was about six, he objected to my taking him
    into the womens room to use the toilet. So I let him go alone
    with the understanding that if anyone gave him any trouble he
    was to tell me. He came out somewhat later and annouced to me
    in a loud voice - that he had had no prolbem and - pointing - that
    man over there was the only one in the bathroom with him...
    naturally I wanted to crawl under the table and die!
    
    Bonnie

    
    re: .10
    
    Pardon me but...."salesladies" is what I did indeed mean to say.
    I did not mean sales"person".  We're not going to get a sales"man"
    to take a little girl to the ladies room, are we now?

    What's wrong with "salesWOMEN"??? They aren't salesGENTLEMEN, now
    are they?  And I'll bet you wouldn't dream of asking a salesgentleman
    to take your little boy to the bathroom, would you now? HIS work
    is too important.
    
    The point applies equally to taking a child of EITHER sex to the
    bathroom generally reserved for use of members of the other sex. But I
    presume from your repsonse that you are not overly concerned about the
    safety of a young boy being sent alone to a men's bathroom in a public
    place, though he's probably in considerably more danger of molestation
    than a girl in a women's bathroom.
    
    --bonnie 

    
    Whoooooa!  Just hold on a minute!
    
    I never said anywhere, anything about sending a child in alone!
    And who the @$%!!! said anything about HIS work being too important?
    
    I would ask a saleslady, SALESWOMAN, to accompany my daughter to
    the restroom if possible.
    
    If I were a woman, I would ask the salesman, SALESGENTLEMAN, to
    accompany my son to the restroom if possible.
    
    And for whatever strange reason there was, yeah, I would ask a salesman
    to accompany my son into the restroom.
    
    All I am trying to do is illustrate an alternative, without getting
    into a sexist debate.
    
    

    I would not ask a sales clerk to take my child into the restroom
    - that would be an improper imposition on them.  I see no problem
    taking my own child of either sex into the restroom until she or
    he is of an age to go alone, and at that point I'd wait outside.
    
    I believe that one can teach a child how to act properly in
    such circumstances and can avoid problems.  I certainly never
    had a problem going into restrooms by myself when I was 5 or 6.
    
    Admittedly, I haven't had a problem with this because I only have
    a son, but I do have to keep him from peeking under the doors
    at times.

    I also agree that boys are probably more at risk than girls at
    entering restrooms alone, but the risk is very low in either case.
    
    					Steve

    
    
    
    
    
    
                        My kid just goes in his pants.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Re .18, is that when you're at the movies?
       You probably just don't want to miss the show!
       The poor kid :)
    
    Lorna
    

    Since a note of levity has already been introduced here, I'll quote,
    without permission, part of an article by Dave Barry. The whole
    thing is on kids and travelling, but this section deals with the
    subject of this note - and I don't think this would be much different
    if the gender(s) were swapped around.
    
    "The men's room was very small and had not been cleaned since the
    Westward Expansion. Robert, seeing this, immediately announced that
    the had to do Number Two, adn of course he insisted that I stand
    guard right outside the stall. I hate this situation, because when
    strangers come in to pee, there I am, apparently just hanging around
    for fun in this tiny bathroom.
    
    So to indicate that I'm actually there on official business, guarding
    a stall, I feel obligated to keep a conversation with Robert, but
    the only topic I can ever think of to talk about, under the
    circumstances, is how the old Number Two is coming along. You'd
    feel like a fool in that situaiton, talking about, say, Iran. So
    I say: "How're you doing in there,Robert?" in a ludicrously interested
    voice. And Robert says" "You just asked me that!" which is true.
    And I say "Ha ha!" to reassure the peeing stranger that I am merely
    engaging in parenthood and there is no cause for alarm."
    
    Hope this wasn't too frivilous for the topic. But it's probably
    jsut as well to remember that: 1)The task has to be accomplished,
    so just DO it, and 2)keep a sense of humor about it.
    
    Dawn
    

    How old should a child be?

    Take the child until she announces she is perfectly capable of 
    taking herself.  

    Also, what do you say if you're offended? (an eight year old sticking 
    his head under the booth!)

    Why not say: *LITTLE BOY, GET OUT OF MY DRESSING ROOM* 
    Perhaps the parent will notice. Or, you can be really agressive and 
    walk into the parent's dressing room, swing OPEN her curtain, 
    and discuss the matter. (Or surprise her, peek under her 
    curtain and open the conversation.)

    I think it is perfectly OK for any adult to enter the "other" washroom
    IF YOU KNOCK FIRST, open the door slightly, and ask if you may enter.
    I've been in this situation a few times -- with and without child --and 
    everyone has been more than cooperative. 

    Now for the rude question:  If I enter a stall, and the person exiting 
    has left a soiled toilet seat, should I discuss the matter with her?

    It seems to me that some people believe the best way to avoid 
    contact with possible bacteria is to p** all over the plumbing 
    fixtures.  Or perhaps it is a way of proclaiming 'ownership' of the 
    place?  But it reveals a real streak of pighood.  I have never 
    *discussed* this with the previous occupant, but the day comes closer.
    (The COOP has been threatening to close their public washrooms because
    of the high ratio of pigs. Sigh)

    Meigs    

    Re the seat problem - why not write a note to the management suggesting
    that they install seat cover dispensors?

    Lots of places in **Digital** have seat covers, but I have gotten
    a most unwelcome wet surprise a number of times.  Somehow I don't
    think the general public is likely to do better than we do.
            
    Possibly offensive material follows:
    
    
    Wet (or otherwise gross) seats are very high on my list of peeves.
    What's worse is that it's pretty hard to clean up adequately in
    a public place when that happens.  I was with a very carsick child
    in a public restroom one day and she was amazed that I stood around
    cleaning up the places where she "missed".  She thought that was
    "gross" and I explained to her that I thought it was *grosser* to
    come into a restroom and find it filthy.  Hope I made at least one
    convert!

    Wet toilet seats make me crazy, too.  Many times I don't 
    remember to look before I sit.  I'm getting better, though.
    (I used to get wild over pay toilets, but they seem to have 
    disappeared.  At least, I haven't seen one in years.  
    Remember the ones that had seats that flipped up into a UV 
    (?) light recepticle?)  
    
    Anyway, toilet seat covers aren't necessary.  When I was a kid,
    my mother taught me to put strips of toilet tissue on the seat.
    About three squares on either side does it.  I don't think that
    the people who piss on seats are likely to use the seat covers.
    They're just inconsiderate idiots as far as I'm concerned.
    
    CQ 

>very carsick child
>in a public restroom one day and she was amazed that I stood around
>cleaning up the places where she "missed". 

Holly, you are on my list for Citizen Of the Week award.

I suppose this child thought it was gross because she already had the 
"white porcelean woolies" about washrooms.  To leap all the 
way back to note 1 of this topic, how do you maneuver kids into the 
sane position -- between slob and squeamish?

It must be tough.  E*very set of parents I know is very proud to have 
worked both hard and consciously to teach their kids the facts of life, 
hygene, modesty but not shame, et cetera, and yet the their kids ... now 
20, 30, 40, 50  ... know their parents are kidding themselves.

My college roommate Gail amazed us.  She occupied the sane point between 
slob-squeamish, modest-sexy, chasity-boffing.  She same from a home where 
her parents would walk by in their underwear, where x could shower while y 
used the toilet ... all of which struck me (hail mary, full of grace) as 
unseemly (ok, radical).

I'd lay money, it's the hyper hygenic that are playing pigtime on the rest 
of us.  Perhaps because of them we should accompany the kids to the public
washrooms, until the kids understand something about hygene.   

  Thoughts from parents?     Meigs               

    re: .25 -- you might be onto something here.
    
    I, too, have cleaned public toilets after a carsick child has
    demolished the area -- often . . . for about two years she couldn't
    look at a car without getting sick!  It got to where I carried a
    washcloth and towel in my purse. First I washed her, then I cleaned up
    the debris.  The usual reaction from the other people in the washrooms
    was "How can you let her do that in here?"  I was never sure where they
    wanted her to do it, but they couldn't seem to handle the sound. And my
    cleaning up after her . . . And the ones who objected were always the
    middle-aged types who looked like they probably had several carsick
    kids of their own at one point in life. 

    I, too, come from a family where toilet privacy was somewhat less than
    absolute. We didn't run around in our undies, but if someone was in the
    shower we felt perfectly free to come in and use the toilet. Now that I
    think about it, for most of my teenage years, the bathroom door didn't
    have a latch on it.  We put in a new door when I was about 14, and were
    going to get a new doorknob for it, but we never got around to it. So
    the door would shut but wouldn't latch.  Might be something heavily
    symbolic about that! :)
    
    A number of Kathy's friends have commented unfavorably on the fact that
    we leave the bathroom door wide open when nobody's in it.  "But you can
    see everything!" was the way one girl put it.  "You have to leave it
    shut so people don't look at it." 
    
    No comment.
    
    --bonnie

    re .26
    
    oh gag!  my lack of formal training in etiquette reveals itself
    once again! i'd never heard before that you were supposed to keep
    the bathroom door shut all the time!  where do people LEARN these
    things?
    
    liz

    As for wet seats, I learned my lesson.  Now, each time I go into
    a Digital bathroom, I check around (look very close at white seats),
    take a whole handfull of toilet paper and wipe it down.  If I go
    to a public restroom, I don't even sit on the seat nor do I touch
    it.  I never know WHEN they were cleaned last and I am very careful
    not to be "pigish", as someone put it.  I look and if by chance
    I splash or even the plumbing splashes, I'll wipe it away.
    
    One time, I saw a seat completely covered with little yellow dots.
    I chose another stall but then I saw a woman go in that stall and
    immediately sit down.  I was squeemish after that one.  I mean,
    how much in a hurry was she to "go"?  Wonder if she felt anything
    different after that.  Uggggg!                         
    
    As for kids, my sister NEVER let's her sons go into a rest room alone.
     She has the sitter (or herself) check the men's room before allowing
    her sons to go in.  I guess she read somewhere that little boys
    check in but they don't check out.  She has irrational fears but
    that's HER problem.
    
    Cathy

    I agree that messy toilets are gross, and there have been many
    times that I've had to clean up the seat (and even flush the toilet
    first!) before letting my son use it (or myself).  When I am
    with my son, I'll sometimes use a diaper wipe to clean the seat
    (though since he is out of diapers, I don't carry those much anymore.)
    
    I did see in a drug store a small aerosol can of disinfectant
    cleaner specifically designed for cleaning toilet seats!  It was
    tiny enough to fit in a purse or pocket.  I may pick one up the
    next time I see it.
    
    				Steve

    When I was a kid a closed bathroom door ment someone was in there
    and wanted their privacy, knock first. An open door ment free to
    use.
    
    Wet toilet seats.. I always thought that was just a mens room
    problem. We learn something new every day. I asked my wife about
    it and she made the comment "public rest rooms .. I never sit on
    the seat.
    
    Which brings me to a humerus incident.. pardon the tangent.
    
    Last year on mothers day weekend my wife took her girl scout
    troop camping in Pelem (bad spelling) N.H. as part of a area
    wide girl scout campout. Now if any of you remember, the tempature
    that week end was not very warm about 20 deg at night. Anyway
    the out door johns (latrines) had stainless steel lids. At two
    oclock in the morning she had to releave her self. She ran 
    to the latrine , dropped her pants and sat down.. Someone 
    had left the lid down. I am told that they heard her in
    New York and she definately woke the whole camp. 
                                         
    Guess where my wife is going this weekend.
    
    
    dave

    What bothers me the most is finding smelly dead cigarette butts
    in the toilet - yuck!  You'd think people could wait a minute or
    too, since there is usually an ash try amounted on the wall outside
    the stall, but they don't.  I can flush the cancer-stick away, but
    the odor lingers.  I guess that is the only mess that really bothers
    me, unless things are really pig-ish.

    This is gross but what I find the most disgusting in public restrooms
    is when I find one where the previous user has had a bowel movement
    and neglected to flush the toilet.  Who are these people and what
    are they thinking when they walk away from the toilet leaving it like
    this?  Do they really think some stranger's day is going
    to be made why viewing this?  After one such incident, a girlfriend
    and I speculated that perhaps there is an organization made up of
    people who make a hobby of deliberately going around and defiling
    public restrooms :-).
    
    As far as the privacy issue goes, I come from a family where you
    left your bedroom fully dressed or in pajamas, robe and slippers,
    and you locked the door when you went to the bathroom or took a
    shower.  I was raised that way.  Nobody asked me before I was born,
    and I have retained a lot of that desire for privacy.  On the other
    hand, I'm not going to go bezerk if an 8 yr. old boy peeks under
    a door at me.
    
    Lorna
    

    Maybe I should enter this under the note for "perversity of inanimate
    objects" --
    
    But a lot of times the toilet just decides not to work -- runs out of
    water pressure or something, I suppose.  Public restrooms don't usually
    have plungers or other useful tools sitting around for your use, and a
    lot of times (like the rest areas on I-84 S in Conn) there isn't even
    anybody around to report it to. Besides, after it sits for ten minutes
    or so it'll be ready to go. 
    
    Can't you just see the toilet bowl just sitting there, building up its
    water pressure to spray all over the seat, snickering and chortling at
    the annoyance it gives Bonnie and the shock it's going to give Lorna in
    a minute or two . . . 
    
    --bonnie, ready to retire to the country

<.28

>    As for kids, my sister NEVER let's her sons go into a rest room alone.
>     ....I guess she read somewhere that little boys
>    check in but they don't check out.  She has irrational fears but
>    that's HER problem.
 

An american anthropologist collects the kind of "folk tales" that are part
of a culture's oral tradition.  Here's one that's been in the UStates and
PRico since the 30's.  ... But she insisted she heard noises, and he got
mad and pulled out of lover's lane real fast, and when they got to her
house, an iron hook was hanging from her door. (Sigh, I've forgotten about 
50 of these, but it's been a long time since my last pajama party.)

In 1964 I heard a dreadful story about a little boy who went to the men's 
room alone.  Heard it again in 65 and 67, and the story has made it into 
the anthropologist's book too.  ALL of his stores have in common that the 
folk researchers can find no actual event that gave rise to the story ... 
It's another TEXAS/razor/halloween/apple story that our grandchildren will 
tell each other.  I really wonder if sis heard the story.

Then again, I know a mom who kept the kids home from summer camp the day 
that Skylab fell back to Earth.  (And I know her! It's not my friend's 
cousin's hairdresser's maid, but a real person!)            Meigs

    Re: .34
    
    You're referring to a series of three (so far) books by Jan Harold
    Brunvand: "The Vanishing Hitchhiker", "The Choking Doberman",
    and "The Mexican Pet".  There's a discussion of these in
    QUARK::HUMAN_RELATIONS.  Wonderful reading.
    
    				Steve

re .26  and carsick kiddies in the rest rooms:

When I was one of them :-) I don't remember knowing far enough in advance for
my folks to get to the rest room in time!  I remember numerous road-side stops,
though...

re .26 (again...) and bathroom etiquette:

>    A number of Kathy's friends have commented unfavorably on the fact that
>    we leave the bathroom door wide open when nobody's in it.  "But you can
>    see everything!" was the way one girl put it.  "You have to leave it
>    shut so people don't look at it." 

I agree with a previous comment:  If it's open, you know it's vacant!  Also,
there are those who believe the lid belongs down when the seat's not in use.
That is the second most horrible surprise for someone running to the bathroom
in the middle of the night.  One guess what the winner is? :-)

I have nightmares (many of them!) dealing with trying to find a rest room in a
public place, and then having all the stalls filthy/broken/etc. and I'm really
desperate!!  This might stem from my really needing rest rooms often in a
hurry, and occasionally having a bad time of it...

Jill

    You put the seat down and close the lid in the bathroom at my house
    so that the cats won't drink out of (or fall into) the toilet!
    
    You leave the door open when the "necessary room" is unoccupied
    so that it is obvious that it is unoccupied.
    
    You open the door when you take a shower so that the older cat,
    who likes to be there (I spoil this cat) when the bathroom is full
    or steam, can come in.

re .35 (Steve)

I knew you'd be the next reply in there :-)

re .37 (Charlotte)

Well, I guess you have to make some adjustments for cats.  And I suppose
keeping the seat cover down is better than leaving the seat up :-)


Jill, currently in the midst of "The Choking Doberman" :-)

    re .34,35, etc.,
    
    I agree that there are a lot of "tall tales" out there about things
    that happen to children, BUT the incidence of sexual abuse of children
    is extremely high.  Some researchers think as many as 1 in 4 of
    all children may experience some sort of abuse.  Of documented cases
    of abuse more than 70% of the victims were UNDER 5 YEARS OF AGE!!!
    
    In light of statistics like that, I can understand a parent's
    reluctance to let her/his child go into a public bathroom alone.

    re .39
    
    It's comforting to think that all those children are being abused by
    strangers in bathrooms, but unfortunately for our psychic comfort the
    vast majority are being abused by people they know and trust --
    parents, relatives, neighbors, their favorite teacher. 
    
    It's worth being aware of the dangers of public bathrooms and taking
    a ride with a stranger, but let's not forget that strangers are
    not the primary source of the danger. 
    
    --bonnie

    
�    < Note 323.36 by ARGUS::CORWIN "I don't care if I AM a lemming" >
�                          -< more off the topic :-) >-

�    I agree with a previous comment:  If it's open, you know it's vacant! 
�    Also, there are those who believe the lid belongs down when the seat's
�    not in use.

	When I was a kid, I was taught that the lid wouldn't be there
    	if there weren't a reason for it, hence we always left the lid
    	 down. (when it wasn't being used, of course :-))

    	My current SO likes to leave the door closed when no-one's in
    	 there.  I agree with the vacancy issue, at least you know for
    	 sure if someone's in there.
    
    
    				-Rich

    This is a little off the subject but why don't parents (some do
    of course) teach their children to wash their hands afterwards.  
    This is really a pet peeve of mine.  If we teach our children then
    I don't have to watch adults who should know better.  This really
    says something about personal hygiene.
    
    

    
    re:.42  What does it say about my personal hygiene?  I don't always
    wash my hands afterwards...
    
    re: a few back.  I have a cat who also loves to come and sit in
    the bathroom while I take a shower.  He will jiggle the doorknob
    and complain if the door is kept closed.  Sometimes he sits on the 
    edge of the tub between the inner and outer curtain.  After I dry 
    off, I brush my teeth while he sits on the edge of the sink and 
    watches the water go down the drain.
    

    RE: .42  "personal hygeine"
    
    This reminds me of the three fellows who went fishing on a lake
    in Maine.  Two were city slickers who had graduated from Harvard,
    the other was a local fella who had graduated from Bowdoin.  At
    one point they came ashore on a small island in the middle of the
    lake, and, having consumed a few beers on this hot summer day,
    each went off to one side to pee.  When they were done, the two
    Harvard men got out their ditty bags and produced soap and towels
    with which to wash their hands.  Turning to their guide, who was
    using the time to fill his pipe, one of them said:  "Why, I thought
    you were an educated man.  Didn't they teach you at Bowdoin to wash
    your hands after going to the bathroom?".  To which their guide
    replied: "Nope.  At Bowdoin they taught us not to go on our hands.".
    

    I was always taught to wash my hands after going to the bathroom.
     I got into the habit and I've never stopped.  When viewing Corporate
    women in Stow who use the ladies room and pass right by the sink,
    I feel that I wouldn't want to shake their hand when meeting them.
    
    If you think about it, you eat with your hands and lick your fingers
    sometimes: would you eat off a toilet bowl?   
    
    No judgement, just thoughts!!!
    
    <in regards to my sister and her children, I asked her if I could
    take my 9 and 8 year old nephews (along with my boyfriend) to the
    Canobie Lake outing and she said no, it's too much for you to handle
    and if you're not looking, someone might take them.  Is this a genuine
    fear of all parents of little children?  I am 26 (was 25 at the
    time) and am very responsible.  I thought it was going a bit too
    far.  So, now, everytime I want to take them somewhere, I get a
    warning list>  If this warrants starting a separate topic, let me
    know or point me to where this is appropriate.
    
    Thanks Cathy
                

    re .45 Try note 217 "Fear and Children" 60 also deals with abductions
    but I don't think it was what you were interested in.

re: washing hands after going (boy has this topic moved)

When I was having problems with dry, abused skin on my hands, my
dermatologist suggested that I might wash my hands too much (which,
of course, makes them dry out faster). He said it really isn't necessary
to wash your hands more than once or twice a day. I assume he doesn't
only go to the bathroom once or twice a day :-).
	Mez

    	RE: .44
    
    	Hey, that's not original to Maine. It had to originate
    	with the Marine Corps (where I learned it).
    
    	Sailor "Didn't they teach you Marines to wash after going?"
    
    	Marine "No, they taught us not to go on ourselves."
    
    	Scott USMC = Uncle Sam's Misguided Children (and some others
                     that I will not repeat, nor type)

    There are times when I go to the bathroom and need to wash my hands,
    and other times when I don't really *need* to, but usually do anyway.
    (If I am preparing food, always!)  It never occurred to me that
    other adults were evaluating me on whether I washed my hands or
    not! :-)
    
    Next unseen for the easily grossed out...
            
    
    
    ---------------------
    One thing that really bugs me (after doing a lot of travelling with
    a carsick kid) is the shape of many toilet bowls.  Some of very well
    designed for children who need to be sick, and don't splash them.
    I guess there is a kind of slope in the front so that they don't
    have to aim for the deep water.  Others drop straight down in front,
    and cause much splashing.  I wonder if "toilet bowl engineers" think
    about things like that!  I wonder if they ever consult with people
    who deal a lot with the needs of children.     
    
    In rural areas I don't mind the "side of the road" routine, but in
    heavily populated areas I always tried to get the kid to the bathroom,
    with varying degrees of success!
                                                 
    Apologies for grossing anyone out...but I did warn you...

    RE:  .48  "Vernal jarhead"
    
    
    
    
    
                             No.  I was a sailor.
    
    
    
    
    
    

    RE:  washing hands 

National Public Radio had a bit about hand washing in public johns.  
Some curious soul (who would probably be fascinated by this topic)
hung about public washrooms and discovered that:

     A person was unlikely to wash if no one else was present.

     A person was most likely to wash in others were present.

I think the ratio was 80% to 40%, but my memory has been unreliable ever 
since I worked with UNIX.  So why?
   
Maybe we get .. ah ... casual in private.  Or self-conscious in public, 
which is not erroneious because people are watching.  Or maybe we 
unconsciously 'follow the leader': after all, if five peeps are present, 
chances are at least one is washing, and the rest of us, as members of this 
temporary community, just soap up.

Here's a new one:  I just came from the ladies room and the white seat was 
*covered* with white talcum powder (APO-ites - beware).

> No.  I was a sailor.
    
Six of my brothers told me folks become *very* hygenic in the military 
because the unhygenic are razzed unmercifully.   Meigs
    
    
    
    

    re: .49
    
    In West Berlin, I had experience with the older european toilets.
    There is no water in the bowl until you flush, so splashing
    certainly isn't a problem.  However, being able to deduce what
    the person previous to you was involved in, is.  Tidy Bowl a must.

    	RE: 323.51
    
    	Not only were the unclean razzed, sometimes they were
    	the main participants (not by choice) in the infamous
    	G.I. shower. Such showers vary with group and different
    	services, but all of them made the point very clearly.
    
    	Scott

re: -1,

	That's really gross Bob.  Remind me not to shake your hand.

							-davo

p.s.	At least not on the trail!  ;^)

    Re .45, I think a lot of parents are paranoid about having their
    children disapear because of all the recent publicity (those morbid
    pictures on milk bottles, etc.)  I'm glad there wasn't that much
    talk about abducted children when my daughter was really small or
    I would probably have chained her to me.
    
    Re .42, washing hands.  I have noticed some very attractive young
    women at Digital leave the ladies room without washing their hands
    after going to the bathroom.  It does seem strange.  My mother stressed
    washing hands to the point that I would feel like I was commiting
    a sin if I didn't.  Even if I were alone in the restroom God and
    my mother would know!
    
    At *my* house we always left the lid closed.  I got the general
    impression from my mother that it was "not nice" to leave it open.
     Now, I also don't want my kitties to fall in.  We also always left
    the door open when not in use.  If the door was closed it meant
    occupied.  Rules of bathrooms are funny.  One odd thing I've noticed
    over the years is that wherever I live I seem to be the only person
    who can really figure out how to put up a new roll of toilet paper
    :).
    
    Lorna
    

    re .56 Gee Lorna I have the same problem with the toilet paper
    roll in my house :-) 

re .56 by APEHUB::STHILAIRE 

>    odd thing I've noticed
>    over the years is that wherever I live I seem to be the only person
>    who can really figure out how to put up a new roll of toilet paper
    
Saw Ann Landers on TV a few years ago and she said of aaaaalllll the mail 
sent to her during the column years, the two biggest mail getters were:

        Which side the paper rolls down from, against the wall or opposite 
        the wall (opposite was Ann's choice)

        Ironing bedsheets  

The episode started with:
"Dear Ann, my husband is crazy; he wants me to iron the bed sheets!"

Ann replied 'good homemakers iron their sheets' and then received something 
like 20,000 letters saying she was crazy.  Next she had to recant; turns 
out her housekeeper told Ann she hadn't ironed the sheets in 10 years.

The toilet paper letters clearly indicated that many of us are passionate 
about the rolling direction.  But seems some of us are more passionate 
about making sure it's there.                          Meigs

    A friend of mine used to have an interesting standard for selecting
    housemates.  She would ask for references, and then ask the reference
    if the potential housemate was known to replace the toilet paper
    when it ran out without having to be asked.
    
    She got some good housemates this way!

    re. washing hands --
    
    I was always told to wash BEFORE as one's hands are nearly the most
    dirty parts of one's body (second only to the mouth).
    
    Lee

re .59 

>and then ask the reference if the potential housemate was known to 
>replace the toilet paper when it ran out without having to be asked.
    
A genius!

I had to leave school and moved out of a happy aprtment with three 
wonderful, much-beloved roomies.  Three months later, when I came back to 
visit, Each Person had a roll of tissue on her dresser and none in the 
bathroom.

So when one had a guest use the facilites, she would first fetch the paper.
(The in-house war had arisen from money arguments.  Bonnie ran up $150 
phone bills, and while she would pay for individual calls, she was furious 
that the others refused to split to $10-25 tax on ld calls.  She *refused* 
to understand the bill breakdown.  And yes, she was the most monied of the 
four.)     Meigs