Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    There are several discussions of situations related to this in
    the QUARK::HUMAN_RELATIONS conference.  However, at this point,
    it clearly does no good to suggest what you should have done before
    you got into this mess.
    
    If I were in your situation, I'd run straight to a good laywer who
    is experienced in divorce and custody cases.  (Better late than
    never.)  Unfortunately, I've heard of several similar situations
    from friends, and, so far, there have been no happy endings.  
    In one case, the child is living with her grandparents rather than
    either her father or mother, because the parents can't agree on
    what to do.
    
    Your best bet is to work with your lawyer and see if you can convince
    your ex to give you custody anyway - try and put it as being best for
    your daughter, rather than an attack on your ex.
    
    Good luck - you'll need it!
    				Steve

    I agree with Steve, get the best lawyer around and push it to
    the limit. If there is any way to get the child away from a
    potentially absive mother legally, do it !! but STAY LEGAL.
    It sounds like she has damaged her cause by her irresponsible
    actions. If you can prove that she squandered $80000, you have
    gone a long way toward proving your case. Good luck. Dana

    re: what .1 and .2 said
    
    This is true.  If you have proof of the mother's "instability",
    then this will help your case.  I had a bad father, and my mother
    stayed with him thinking that a bad father was better than no father
    at all.  I disagree.  A bad parent is a bad parent, and if she is
    abusive to your daughter, either physically or mentally, then you
    should try to help your daughter out of the situation.
    
                   Carol

    More thoughts...
    
    Part of your note said you wanted opinions, not advice, but it's
    hard to separate the two.  As for opinions - of course the situation
    isn't fair.  Life isn't fair.  Nor is it just.  But knowing that
    doesn't help you any - a good lawyer will.
    
    					Steve

    
        Sounds a bit grim... I know the feeling because I have an almost
    identical situation where my "ex" is attempting to take me for
    everything, despite the fact that she never contributed financially
    for the whole period of the marriage and I stand to lose 13 years
    worth of effort.
    
        I have recently changed my lawyer because I felt the current one 
    wasn't fighting "dirty" enough -  it sounds cruel but, at the end of
    the day, I have to protect myself (and my daughter's long-term
    interest) and the advice to get a GOOD lawyer is absolutely right.
    I'm learning the hard way that in these situations, there is no
    room for sentiment - a good lawyer will at least make you feel better
    about it all.
    
        I am not sure of the law in the US concerning this sort of thing
    but it would seem to me that she would be hard put to justify her actions.
    A good lawyer will ease your mind and set the wheels in motion.
    Good luck and don't let it get on top of you - hang in there.
    
    be lucky,
    
    Steve

    I, too, have been through a divorce [Mine was *much* 'cleaner'].
    
    Thoughts and opinions?  *You* are in the right.  The fact that you
    are right, however, carries little weight in a custody case.  It's
    all based on who has the better lawyer, unfortunately.
    
    Given the above thoughts, you can guess what my advice would be.

    I would like to see each child that came into the world wanted and
    loved...but I doubt even in these enlightened times that this is
    not going to occur.  We are going to have women bear children out
    of carelessness and/or a motive other than a desire to have a child.
    Correspondingly we are always going to have the man that did not
    anticipate the birth or prevent it.
    
    I have seen a lot of situations through the years and I am not sure
    what is worse...the non-custodial parent that jumps ship never to
    be heard from again or the non-custodial parent that assumes
    "responsibility" and the relationship never develops beyond that
    stage.
    
    When dealing with the financial support and the emotional care of
    a child the first consideration should be the emotional aspect.
    In my opinion this area needs to be taken care of first.  Spending
    time with the child, enjoying a child's company and doing things
    like supplying clothing, healthy meals will not only be good for
    the child but can support your ability to be a custodial parent.
    
    Realistically the search for a good lawyer should not be far behind.
    
    It has been my observation that both the custodial and non-custodial
    parent have been sh*t on equally by the courts and often it is in
    the telling by the individual involved that determines fairness.

    A friend of mine just recently went through a divorce and the custody
    issue was definitely the worst part of the process.
    
    If your wishes are to gain custody of your child get a lawyer who
    specializes in custody suits.  All lawyers have their specialties,
    get one who specializes in custody issues.
    
    Good luck !!!
    
    

    I can imagine that your wife decided to have this child without
    ever realizing the demand that it would place on her.  I agree that
    she (your ex) isn't your responsibility, and that you can't "fix things" for
    her.  If she is feeling overwhelmed, or is still just immature,
    she may be able to do some work on herself as opposed to resorting
    to a court battle.
    
    Could the legal issues be put on hold temporarily while she got some
    good therapy?  It might help her look at her dependency issues/needs,
    what she wants from the relationship with her daughter, and where
    she is going next.  She might realize that "winning" more support
    from you from the court would only be a short-term win.  After all,
    where does she want to go with her life?  It sounds like parenting
    may have been so overwhelming for her that she feels "lost" underneath
    the demands, and has consequently lost her personal momentum.
    I also find myself wondering if she came from an abusive situation
    with few models of good parenting?
    
    The erratic spending and mixed messages toward you are what makes
    me wonder these things.  
    
    I hope you don't feel unsupported by my responding to her possible
    needs instead of to yours.  I just don't see a win/win coming out
    of this situation unless she decides to take some control over her
    life.  I think your support of her (actually of your daughter) to 
    date has been admirable.
    
    Holly
                                                    

    Get a good lawyer.  Chances are your ex-wife will get some form
    of rehabilitative alimony from you to get her back on her feet
    financially.  Ask your lawyer what your chances are of getting custody
    of your daughter, if that is what you want.  Be prepared for a nasty
    battle.  Prior to going to court I would advise you to see if you
    can get Social Services to do an investigation.  They can then if/when
    you go to court have a strong say in what is best for the child.
    Be strong, because it won't be easy.
    
    
    Thats my two cents, I've never been through it but I know people
    that have.

    Another thing to be certain about, and perhaps you have thought
    a lot about this and are certain, is whether you really want to
    give up your independent, single life-style to raise your daughter.
     Your life will never be the same.  It is not easy for a single
    father to raise a daughter.  Having custody of her will hamper every
    other relationship you have until she is grown-up.  If she doesn't
    honestly and sincerely come first in your heart you may live to
    regret it.
    
    I've been living for the past two years with my SO and his two now
    teenage daughters whom he has had custody of since they were about
    1 and 3 yrs old.  I know he wouldn't part with them or change his
    decision to raise them for anything, but I also know the sacrifices
    he's had to make both of free-time and money.
    
    Lorna
    
    
    

    I dunno, Joe.  Sounds like the kid might be heading out of the frying
    pan and into the fire... 
    
    This is not intended as a personal attack or anything.  Do you know
    how *hard* it is for me not to start with the free advice stuff?
    Damn hard!! So I'm locking myself into analysis instead to help
    you avoid my relaly awful free advice!!!
    
    The first part of your note kinda said to me that you really weren't
    all that interested in the welfare of your daughter, n'est-ce pas?
    I mean, your ex didn't want money, just for you to recognize your
    daughter and be with her in a supporting role.  You said that since
    you didn't participate in the decision process, you didn't feel
    responsible....
    
    And from your message's later tone, I kinda hear that you're really
    concerned about this child affecting your lifestyle!!!
    
    Maybe it wouldn't be such a great idea for you to take custody of
    this child.  Who needs a parent who doesn't want you?  Who needs
    a parent who sees you as interfering with a lifestyle?
    
    Maybe your ex is being emotionally unstable right now because
    this daughter is difficult to handle AS WELL as the fact that
    your ex isn't too stable to begin with.  Are you, a guy with
    no bonding with this kid art all, anticipating BEING able to
    handle her??  
    
    Do you think your daughter will respond to you with open arms??
    Hasn't she had years of Mommo telling her all about you?
    
    These would be things that you would reeling around in my head.
    Personally, I would fight the temptation to ride in there like
    a knight in shining armor.  You may get knocked off of your
    horse!
    
    If you want your $40,000 back, go for it.  But before you try
    going after your daughter...
    
    Uh.... nope, I won't fall into free advice.  You're not on an easy
    path and I envy you not at all.  I also would question if you've
    REALLY thought this one thru...
    
    Again, I'm sorry if it sounds like an attack.  It wasn't meant to.
    It was *meant* to help you consider the seriousness of what you're
    contemplating.
    
    I wouldn't be so prone to yank the kid around just yet.
    
    Bugsy

    I haven't been through a divorce or custody battle or anything,
    but my daughter is friends with a girl who has been going through
    a bitter custody fight for several years.  The father got custody
    based on the mother's sexually promiscuous life style, but he was
    abusive and had a drinking problem so the mother sued for and got
    custody. She's a very nice woman but not a very good provider, so
    the father got the daughter back on an appeal, and . . . (not saying
    you fit either character, by the way, just trying to illustrate
    the kind of yoyo this kid's been through.)
    
    Anyway, they finally reached a compromise in which Kathy's friend lives
    primarily with her aunt and uncle -- the mother's brother, I think,
    though I'm not positive what the relationship is.  The uncle and aunt
    have custody; both parents have visiting rights. She's much happier
    now and doing better in school, though she's still going through
    counseling and not what you would call an outstanding student.
    
    Obviously this only works if there is a close relative who is willing
    to take an extra child into his or her home. But if there is someone
    like that in either your family or hers, it might be better than
    having her live in an unstable home or be jerked around by reversing
    custody decisions. 
    
    --bonnie
    

    first I would like to thank all of you for your comments and
    (advise), it is appriciated. As I said no one can make decisions
    for others so the content of the feedback was what I was mainly
    interested in. I choose woman notes figuring that they should be
    weighted in favor of women,(actually they seemed very fair to me).
    .12   well I could challange this a lot. Did .12 read something
    between the line or did .12 just make some assumptions.
    
    Since, as mentioned, there are always two sides(or stories) to 
    everything and since I haven't gone into detail I will pass on
    responding to .12's remarks except the bonding part. Fortunately
    or not as the case may be, I happen to have a very strong bond
    with my daughter. I took total care of her for about 7 months
    when she was still an infant, have had her during the summer,
    sometimes a little longer, and now spend every weekend with her.
    She calls me at least 4 times a week and wants to stay over both
    friday and sat, nights. I spend the time with her not hiring
    babysitters and we talk and play games. Now that the weather is
    getting better we will go more places. 
    
    Yesw I know what a sacrifice it would beto give up my single
    status. Can anyone think of a better reason to do so??
    Single life is not great all the time and Since I'm not so
    young I have plenty to look back on.
    
    Social services could be a problem as my ex was a social worker
    for 12 yrs,8 of which were in childrens abuse. Seems odd that she
    can't see the patterns she is following. I think she would skip
    if investigated by her ex peers.  (I probable should talk to them
    but if they think I'mm right they are mandated to act and beleive
    it or not I really don't want to hurt my ex.).
    
    What I have just done at this point is to tell her point blank
    to stop asking me for money. I told her that if she wanted me to
    take over I would but otherwise she was on her own. 
    Well thanks again for your thoughts. JOe

    Sounds like you did the best thing to me.

    Well, I was going to just add an apology and grovel a little
    towards you, Joe.... but I reread your base note and my reply
    .12... and in fairness, you didn't say ANYTHING in the base note
    about your feelings for this child.... and the sum total of your
    dealing with her was "I could have her on weekends when I was
    woring (is a 'k' or an 'h' missing?) in the area..." and something
    about summers.
    
    So, I'm SORRY if my assumptions ired you, but they were the only
    assumptions I could make about your feelings for your daughter,
    especially since you started off saying that you didn't feel
    responsible for her....
    
    And also, the "woring" thing is a joke because that's the way my
    perverted little mind works.
    
    Your decision must have been a toughie... and yes, sacrificing
    your happiness for a child is noble, but the nobility is a thin
    veneer worn away my the resentment that soon takes over.
    
    As Lorna says, that child HAS to come first in your heart...
    
    Bugs

    No apology necessary, the things you pointed out weather applicable
    or not were said in the right context. I didn't feel you were nasty
    or
    anything. Maybe I'll become better at writing my thoughts.
    
    Besides the woring was funny and I enjoy a good laugh. Try (K).
    
    Thanks again,
    joe

    It sounds like you've already decided what to do, but what about
    joint custody?  Friends of mine have this situation and it seems
    to work out pretty well.
    
    set flame on:
    re .5:
    >despite the fact that she never contributed financially for the
    >whole period of the marriage.
    
    If she was taking care of your daugher fulltime, doing your dirty
    laundry, and cooking your meals, then that *is* contributing
    financially.  I hate to sterotype you or anything because I don't
    know you or your situation, but it's *very* common that people
    *severely* underestimate the work, worth, and value of a wife who works
    only within the home.
    
    It would absolutely sicken me to hear my father say this about my
    mother.
    
    set flame off
    
    	-Ellen

re: .18

Gosh thank you Ellen. I must have a stone in my brain or something.

Does anyone have numbers on what an average full-time wife/mother's
labor would be worth on the open market? I know I've seen numbers in
the past, and I suddenly think my mother might be interested in them.
I probably saw those numbers when I was in my "I'll never be like that"
stage, when I couldn't even think about how tough it might be to be
in that position.

Or maybe, what's the going rate for house-cleaning and child care? Perhaps
people with close contact to full-time homeworkers can indicate other
broad areas of responsibility they have? For instance, errand running.
I know you can actually *pay* to have someone run your errands, but
I vaguely remember the prices being enormous!
	Mez

    The book _The Superwoman Syndrome_ has an extensive list of typical
    prices for typical household-support services.  It's a fairly
    dispassionate chart since she included it so a working woman could have
    some basis for deciding how much she could spend to hire somebody else
    to relieve her of some of her more burdensome or time-consuming chores,
    not to be used as ammunition in a divorce battle. 

    In Nashua, child care runs from $1.50-$2.00 an hour for a babysitter
    if you take one child to her home.  If you want the caretaker to
    come to your home, or you want someone with professional training,
    the price goes up UP UP.
    
    If you were cooking for a restaurant, you'd be making AT LEAST minimum
    wage; around Nashua hamburger-flippers are getting $4-$6 and people
    who do more complicated cooking get much more. 
    
    Last week I got an ad for "basic maid service" -- come in once a week
    to vacuum the rugs, clean the bathrooms and kitchen, mop all moppable
    floors -- for $40 a month for an 'average' house.
    
    --bonnie

    I meant to clarify that most of .18 was *not* in response to .0, but
    in response to .5.  The first paragraph of .18 only was directed
    to the base note.
    
    	-Ellen

    My recollection is that (depending on the mix of skills and skill
    levels brought to the table) a homemaker would be worth $35K .. $70K
    if open-market standards were applied.   I felt stunned.  And pissed.
    
    						=maggie

    about how much is a homemaker (I hate the word housewife, she's
    not married to a house...) worth?  A book published in 1975, called
    "the two paycheck marriage", had a good summary.  The amount she
    is worth is directly proportional to how many children she has,
    how old they are, and how much the father helps out at home.  The
    book also contains some dismal estimates of just how much the average
    father/husband helps around the house an spends time with the children.
     I hope that now it's not so bleak as they painted it then - maybe
    12 years have made a difference.
    
    Jody
    

RE .20:
    
>    Last week I got an ad for "basic maid service" -- come in once a week
>    to vacuum the rugs, clean the bathrooms and kitchen, mop all moppable
>    floors -- for $40 a month for an 'average' house.
    
Actually, that's not a bad price.  I used to pay $45 *per hour* to have
those things done.  Who offers the service?

Allison

    I think it was Terrycloth services????  (I also think I spelled that
    wrong.) 
    
    Their regular price is somewhat higher. This was an introductory
    special. Unfortunately I didn't save the card. 
    
    Our four-bedroom (well, three and a study), two-story garrison was, by
    the way, two bedrooms too big to be an 'average' house.

    A neighbor who uses them says they make their money on the fact that
    they work in teams of three and they can finish her three-bedroom split
    level house in under 20 minutes.  

    --bonnie

    I agree with your point however the situation was not as you think.
    I did my own laundry, cooked more than half the meals for her and
    her daughter(from a previous marriage) spent loads of time with
    her daughter while she read sears catologs etc,and we were not married
    until she became pregnant with my daughter(her choise).
    
    Joint cusdody would be fine with me but I don't think my daughter
    would handle it too well. The difference in life styles is too great
    a change for her.
    I omitted much in my original question only to avoid a long drawn
    out explanation of I DID-SHE DID etc. It always takes two.