Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    No you don't have anything wrong with you. If you do I also
    have the same problem. ( I don't see it as a problem). My
    wife and I will be married 20 years this fall. Whats our
    secret, really I don't know. We communicate well, try to see
    each others side in a dispute, enjoy some of the same things,
    but still have seperate interests. My wife is more out going and
    asertive then I am. We give each other support when we have 
    work or other problems. No we are not perfact. There are times
    when things don't mesh right. Maybe we were one of the lucky
    ones.
    
    dave
    
    

My parents are approaching their 40th anniversary. My brother Daryl is
approaching his 15th anniversary and my other brother Daryl is approaching
his 3rd. Both my sisters-in-law have parents and brothers and sisters that
have been marrried (once) for quite some time. I read somewhere that children
of divorced parents are more likely to be divorced than children of happily
married parents. Course there are some marriages that were never meant to
be.

Bahama Mama

    I think that love usually doesn't last forever, but that doesn't
    mean it can't last for more than 2 or 3 months either.  I was in
    love with my ex-husband for 8 1/2 years and then we drifted apart.
     My parents were in love and happily married for 37 years, until
    he died.  I think some people just get lucky and their love lasts
    a long time.  But, you never know if it's forever until one of you
    dies, do you?  I mean, you may have been in love for 20 years, and
    then fall out of love next year.  I guess all we can do is enjoy
    it while it lasts and hope it lasts forever (if that matters to
    us).
    
    I, also, wonder how many people who are still with their original
    partners are ecstatically happy, and just not completely miserable.
     There's a big difference.
    
    Lorna
    

    RE.2  Are you talking about parents who divorce when a child is
    very young that "the children" are more likey to be in marriages
    that end in divorce, or are you talking about adult children who
    are married, their parents get divorce and then they are more likely
    to get a divorce?  I am not married but my sisters are.  The oldest
    sister has been married shy of 11 years.  My other sister has been
    married shy of 7 years.  I am not married and neither is my 22 year
    old sister.  My parents divorced in 1984 after ****** 31 ******
    years of marriage.  What went wrong:  they never loved each other
    even from the beginning.  She got married to "get out of the house"
    and away from her father that was beating her younger sisters and
    "he" got married because he was rejected by another woman of his
    nationality (Italian).  My mother was french, seamingly refined
    and from a "rich" family.  So, they knotted together but in 1975,
    my mother pulled a gun on my father (nothing happened, Thank God)
    but since that day, no love passed between them.  So, why did they
    last until 1984?  Because my father had a little woman on the side
    and could continue the facade until my sister was in college.  Then,
    because my mother faced up to her drinking problem and my father
    left her for a woman 22 years his junior, all hell broke loose and
    that was the end of it, no counseling, no marriage workshops, nothing.
    Abandon ship.
    
    You know what, my mother is VERY VERY happy and will be married
    this fall to a great guy (who is also divorced but in touch with
    HIS children) and I am happy for that.
    
    As for my father, don't really care what happens to him....but,
    he married the "other woman" this past Saturday and I did not attend.
    
    I really hope that if you're in a marriage that "isn't quite right"
    but you "want" to work on it, you will TRY.  If it's worth keeping,
    you work at it.  If it's not, you end it.
    
    I sound bitter and angry and I am.  I'm in counseling right now
    to combat my negative feelings towards my father.  It has been real
    rough.
    
    All this crap and only 26 years old.  I would have been better off
    it they divorced earlier.  But, my mother said she was from the
    old school and you "stuck it out for better for worse, for richer
    for poorer" with no regard to mental health.  Boy have things changed.
    
    Cathy

    re .3
    
    Agreed, Lorna, being in love doesn't last forever.  But, love doesn't
    have all that much to do with a successful marriage.
    
    It's a big component, but I think friendship is a bigger one.  And
    I believe that love is not something that happens to you, or comes
    from the outside, love is something you choose, something you do.
    
    This doesn't mean that a successful marriage is just a matter of
    choice -- you can't make choices for your spouse.  But if both partners
    are committed to choosing to love each other, to work at the marriage,
    the chances for success are higher.
    
    And it helps to have a common "vision" of what you expect out of
    the marriage.  That means discussing expectations, so people can
    make adjustments in their behavior if necessary and let go of
    unrealistic expectations if necessary.
    
    I'm not a long-married person (three years next week), but I intend
    to be.
    
    Gloria

I've been divorced.  The reasons for getting married were all bunged up 
in the first place, I can't remember specifically how I rationalized it 
at the time, nor can I believe that I actually did do it, but I've 
learned from that mistake and I'll not make a similar one again.  It 
broke because I was never committed to making it work.  It might have 
broken even if I had been, but I wasn't so it didn't even have a chance.
That's probably the one thing I've done that I'm most ashamed of.  I'd 
like to be married, or partnered for life, but I take it all very 
seriously now and I'm not in any big rush.

I've often wondered how much I've been affected by Lack of Father.  My
parents divorced when I was a baby, and my father was generally not 
present.  My mother remarried for a short time (a year or two, maybe) 
when I was 7.  The guy was a lot of fun, we sang songs while driving in 
the car, but he was also an alcoholic and a kleptomaniac.  When I was 17 
she married my stepfather.  I loathe the man.  I've blocked out big 
chunks of my life from about 16 - 18, which is when I bailed ship.  But, 
he didn't really have any effect on me, I don't think.  I did latch on 
to kindly, fatherly sorts of men as a child, though.  I remember fondly 
Mr. Martin the Mailman, and Mr. McQuivey the father of two of my friends 
till they moved to Missouri.  I think I've probably been handicapped a 
bit by not having seen a marriage in action, but I don't think it's 
something I can't overcome.

CQ

        Gloria, (May I call you Gloria?)
        
        Thank you for your note. The point about love being something
        you do something you commit to is very important, and not
        appreciated nearly enough. (And by making it, you saved the
        conference from having to endure one of my long daitribes on the
        subject.)
        
        Selma and I have been married almost 14 years and were together
        for about 4 before that. We are much much more than "not
        miserable." Being married for us has its ups and downs, but the
        downs are less frequent and better every year and the ups are
        really great. It's been a lot of work, and will be, but it's
        great. The secrat, to my mind is love, trust, commitment, hard
        work and lots of fun. Oh yes and loving.
        
        JimB. 

    Jan and I got married back in August of 1968 after going out on
    3 dates. For the most part we remain ecstatic. We have had only
    2 fights/arguments/disagreements that have lasted more than a day.
    
    It's a lot of work; but then it's been hell of a lot more fun. For
    the most part, we still consider ourselves newlyweds.
    
    PK

    My wife Karen and I have been married 12 years next month.  We got
    engaged after we had dated 6 weeks, married 5 months later.  And
    no, it wasn't because we had to.
    
    It's been rough at times, but it gets better as the years go by.
    Marrige is a partnership, you've got to work at it.  Trust is our
    biggest asset.  We can always count on each other to be there when
    needed.
    
    Lots of folks today break up after the honeymoon is over..."Good
    times are gone and so am I"...well,real love, not romantic love
    is when you stick around and work it out...and the rewards are
    worth it.
    
    The more people we know that break up, the stronger we cling to
    one another...and the harder we try to make it work.  And work it
    does.
    
    Oh, there are ups and downs, good times and bad...but that's all
    part of it, isn't it ?  Kenny Rodger's song "Through the years"
    sums it up for us, it's kind of our theme song.  Listen to it
    sometime...

    
    I am not one of the ones who remained married despite a lot of effort.
    
    I thought I had all the things that people are talking about, ie
    commitment,love,hard work etc,etc and then one day, after a period
    of not really talking a lot we just decided to split. After we split,
    we realised that we didn't really *love* each other - it was just
    easier to stay together than go through the hassle. 
    
    Post split - well, life is different now. It's much more fulfilling,
    for me personally, being single. Sure, there's a lot of pain and
    a lot of dashed hopes but should any of you currently married people
    find that it's not working - don't stay there - it's not worth it.
    Dont get me wrong, I'm not advocating Divorce to anyone but it's
    not the end of the world - merely the start of a new phase of life.
    
    be lucky,
    
    Steve
         
    

    I can think of several situations that would account for two
    individuals remaining in a marriage.
    
      .  Two people meet and the union is "made in heaven", "the perfect
         match" they are best friends, in love and ecstatic.
    
      .  Two people meet and realize they have common goals, similar
         interests and enjoy each others company.  There enjoyment comes
         from the companionship they derive from each other.
    
      .  Two people meet and make a contract...each provides the other
         with some need and they live a married life and maintain their
         separate interests.
    
      .  Two people meet and marry and the marriage does not work out
         but they stay together for any number of reasons (children,
         religion, financial)
    
    I would say the first situation is luck and those that have that
    kind of marriage should say Thank You daily.  The second two are
    hard work and those people should be commended.  The fourth situation
    is sad and I don't know whether to admire those people or pity them.
    My marriage did not work out and I will always wonder if I should
    have made the best of a bad situation.

    Wonderful question.  I wish I had the answer.  I've been married
    twice.  Once when I was 19 and I knew it wasn't going to work but
    did it anyway.  The other when I was 25 and thought it would last
    forever, and 15 years later didn't want it to last another minute.
    
    We understood all about communication, love, commitment and hard
    work and we put it into practice daily.  However, it seemed that
    there was all that it was about, the work and the commitment and
    just this empty space between us.  He wanted and deserved what I
    couldn't give and I wanted what he was unable to give. We grew in
    very opposite directions at different speeds.
    
    It took marriage counseling to help me clarify that we both deserved
    much better from life.  Separating was a very painful process,
    however my only regret is that we waited so long for all of the
    wrong reasons, children, $$$, property, shoulds, etc.
    
    I can only applaud those who are together in a loving, supporting,
    long term relationship that works, it is heartwarming to hear that
    some of you have made it.
    
    While I was in the relationship, I didn't realize just how bad it
    was, now that we have separated, I realize just how valiantly we
    carried on under impossible circumstances.  I am simply not the
    person I was 15 years ago. I have different wants, needs, expectations,
    desires, pleasures, issues, etc. and trying to be a person I no longer
    am for someone who had every right to assume I would never change was
    a constant insidious and painful drain.   I was always trying to fit myself
    into a mold, always working on myself so I would be a better person
    and the marriage would be ok.  I was always wanting us to do workshops,
    marriage encounter, etc so the marriage would finally be OK.  
    
    Everything we did benefited us immensely as individuals, however, it
    was like trying to make an avacado and watermelon into a banana, both would
    be irreparable altered in the process. And it just got so the end
    result "maintaining a marriage" wasn't worth the cost of two perfectly
    good but different people. 
    
    He still feels I will someday regret breaking up, however I feel
    I have done the right thing (if there is a right thing). 
    
    Again, I am glad to hear from those who have made it and how they
    have done it.  I have much to learn in the area of relationships.
    
    Jim B. I find your words so wonderful and moving.

    Alicia

    This has been a question that I have been meaning to answer
    but have found it hard to find the words....
    
    I guess that Don and I come the closest originally to Joyce's
    second situation - tho after twenty years he is definitely my
    "best friend" today.
    
    Being married and staying married is somethinI can't necesarily
    find the reasons for - but we do work at it, we still love each
    other, and we keep trying every day of our lives. A good friend
    of mine has said to me that you may have to work at it but it
    shouldn't seem like work all the time.... there is a lot of truth
    to that....
    
    My parents will be married 49 years this September, and my younger
    sister will be married 21 years the same month. Both are warm marriages
    full of love and friendship and both have had their rough spots
    and survived them. My youngest sister married her highschool sweet
    heart and divorced him after they both finished school - she has
    just celebrated her 8th anniversary of her second marriage and it
    looks like she definitely has a winner this time. 
    
    One of the thin that was very special to me was to inadvertantly
    over hear my Dad talking to his three sons in law about how happy
    he was with the men his daughters had married and watching how these
    four men who really don't have a lot in  common worked on being
    friends with each other.
    
   Bonnie

    Well, I was a bit apprehensive about entering this topic, but I'm
    glad I did.  Its nice to know I'm not alone.  Its nice to hear of
    others who are happily married.  And it hurts to hear those of you
    who were hurt by marriage.  Believe me, if you get a good marriage
    next time, its worth it.  I sincerely hope that its a hurt that
    I won't ever have to feel.
    
    One reply got me to thinking about when we have fights, even the
    real screaming matches (yep, even happy marriages have screaming
    matches), while we were screaming at each other, a little voice
    in the back of my mind reminded me that I love this person and I
    couldn't live without her.  Now, that just *has* to be love.  Has
    anyone else ever experienced that?
    
    I think trust is the ultimate key in a good relationship.  Without
    trust, you might as well hang up everything else.  Of course, it
    won't work all by itself either.
    
    Spence

    Been married 11 years next week,no sign that it's going to change
    and,add two years of living together before that.
    Sometimes it seems really difficult,but mostly it seems easy ,and
    the positives far outweigh the negatives.
    
    ...Robin
    

    
    My folks are going to be celebrating their 50th anniversary in the
    next year or so (I'm terrible with dates...). I've been with Jeff
    full-time for about 6 years, but we've known each other for over
    14 years (high-school sweethearts). And if things keep going like
    this, we'll be together into the afterlife.
    
    We've both done a lot of changing over the years and are still
    changing. The relationship changes daily. Sometimes things are great,
    some days they aren't so great. But, and as someone already said,
    the downs no-where near offset the good times. He's my best friend,
    the one I want to share everything with and when he's not around
    I really miss him.

    The relationship does takes work and sometimes I get tired of doing the
    work, as he does. I know I would be a different person if he wasn't in
    my life and sometimes I resent not being that person. But then,
    I think about what life would be like if I didn't know him and it
    makes me quite happy that he is there.

    Don't feel like the odd wheel, just because we usually hear about
    the "failures" and think that's all that's around. The working
    relationships tend not to be as news-worthy. 
    

	My parents have been married for 30 years in a first time marriage
    as a result of meeting in college.  They used to relate their experiences
    of all their friends getting divorced to the point where they were about
    the only people they knew who were still married!  It's not too unusual
    to be in this situation, so don't fret it.

	As for myself, Karin and I just celebrated our 2nd wedding aniversary.
    We also met in college, but for us, it was more like grad school (both of
    us pursuing second majors).  We dated for a couple of years before tieing
    the knot, but I was ready to get married from the start (Karin was the one
    who needed convincing).  I spent my younger years shopping around.  As a
    result, I got most of my curiosity out of my system; what's left can be
    satisfied by my imagination combined with this strange sense of deja' vu
    that I experience with most people I meet.

	Our families are lucky in that we all enjoy each other.  This could
    be partly due to the fact that both of our families are a thousand miles
    away, but many times I wish that we could be together even more.  I think
    it's important that the families can get along too because a marriage will
    effect both families just as much as both the families effct the marriage.
    Of course, some people don't consider one's family to be that important,
    or maybe just wish their family was more understanding, but there are many
    forms of extended families which a couple can enjoy as well.

	Looking back on my life, I once vowed never to marry (blew that one),
    and I had since changed my mind, but went for years without any luck finding
    a mate.  Then, it happened.  It was irreversable, our fates were sealed.
    It's as though niether of us had any further control over our own destinies.
    We knew what had to happen next, so we both retired from the singles scene
    and settled down.  Since then we often wonder what it would be like with
    someone else, and occasionally fantasize about other people, but our basic
    interests have since moved into other realms, and these thoughts only occur
    during full moons and such (Howl!!).

	I'm not sure how important it is that a couple stay married, I think
    the important thing is that they stay happy.  If getting divorced is the
    only way to achieve happiness, then more power to the divorce.  For those
    who choose to stick it out, hang in there - chances are things will work
    out ok.  If you've hung in too long already, but are still determined to
    make it work, then try an extended family situation; chances are, there's
    at least one reason you are still together, so build on that and fulfill
    other needs elsewhere.  In any case, I wish everyone the best of happiness
    for themselves and their families!

							-dav�

    A late reply, but just wanted to let you know there's another "original
    partner" out there.  Dave and I have been married 13 years, and
    knew/courted each other for 9 before we married.  Neither of us
    are the kind of people who desire endless stimulation and/or excite-
    ment in our lives; perhaps that helps.  I feel more loving towards
    the man (or perhaps just as loving, but in a completely different
    way) than during courtship.  How do we do it?  Tina Turner's lyrics
    say it best:
    
    	"We gotta show some
	  Respect
	 We got a love to
	  protect,
	 Don't take it for granted
	  I know
	 That if want to
	  stay gold
	 We gotta show some respect For the things that I love about ya
	 For the woman that you see inside
	 Don't let it walk out the door
	 Love follows every time."
    
    Marcia