Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    I meant also to ask how everyone *deals* with harassment. 
    
    In this situation, I knew I would be walking in the direction they
    were driving so I was reluctant to scowl at them as was my wont.
    On the other hand it was a busy road, so it seemed over-reacting 
    to be frightened by them.  
    
    What can you do besides burn up inside (and get an ulcer)?
                       

    i think there at least are a couple of things happening:
    
    first of all, [being in] cars reinforces our anonymity. many normally
    timid souls drive like screamin' fools when they get behind a wheel.
    being enclosed in 'circles of steel' with many horsepower at one's
    toes often leads to uncharacteristically agressive behavior. being
    in a car makes one feel more powerful and makes it easier to get
    away if one's bluff is called.
    
    second, i think that a lot of harassing behavior is meant to call
    attention to the harassER, saying 
    
        look at me! *i* noticed an attractive woman. what a clever,
        observant, heterosexual male *i* am.
    
    perhaps there is also frustration when the woman being noticed does
    not acknowledge the noticer, who then feels inadequate, and must
    make some fuss to be noticed. in most other species, it's the male
    that has the plumage.... perhaps an element of this kind of harassment
    is aural plumage.
    
    for the record, this is all speculation... i never honk.
    
    /bruce
                     

    
    Rep. .0:
    
    Do yourself a favor. Don't EVER travel abroad (i.e. Europe, Central
    or South America, or the Caribbean). Personally I do not use those
    means to attract a Lady's attention, but having travelled abroad
    I see such behaviour as normal in _most_ other cultures.
    
    I think that American women just aren't used to been complimented.
    It seems that any reference to their femininity (which is what separate
    women from men) is taken as an insult or as a reference to weakness.
    
    Although I will say that there is a difference between harrassment
    and a complimentary salutation. But let's not confuse them.
    
    Just one man's opinion. 

    Did anyone ever see the Saturday Night Live show when Gilda Radner
    and a bunch of other women-construction workers harassed a male
    walking by?  "Boom-chick-a-BOOM!"  "Hey, baby!  Nice buns!"
    
    This is not a compliment.  When this happens to me I ignore them,
    but am extremely annoyed.
    
                      Carol

    Re:  .3    Good answer.  Thanks.     
    
    Re:  .4    Pardon me, I've been *living* here in Switzerland for 
               4 years now.  I accept compliments very well, thankyou
               :-)  Honking, whistling, etc are not compliments in any 
    	       language, even here in the "Old" World.  
    

    I got into the habit of spitting in the general direction of the
    harasser.  While it does wonders to express my reaction and the
    level of respect I hold for people who harass me on the street,
    you must make very sure not to hit anything but the sidewalk or
    the street... 
    
    I feel better with some outlet like this, but it got me beaten up
    once in Paris, so I am hesitant to suggest anyone else do it.  I
    must admit though, it is really funny watching some tough macho
    guy try to out-macho a "little girl" spitting on the street :-)
    
    Lee
    
    

    re.2
    
    I like most women do not consider being honked at, yelled at or
    whistled at a compliment...in fact it is to be frank, insulting.
    
    I for one (and I'm sure I speak for the majority of women) do not
    get upset or angry if I am allowed to go about my business without
    the embarressment of some guy showing off to his mates how clever
    he is.
    
    How would men like it if everytime they walked past a group of women
    they were leered at and suggestive comments were made?
    
    Might I also suggest that if Mr 'Personality-Less than Zero' can't
    make more constructive and less insulting comments (not only the
    ones in this conference, but also the ones in Mennotes etc) he keeps
    his opinions to himself!
                                                          
    Lynn
    

    			One of the women I knew when I worked
    		for another company was stopped at a light one day
    	        (near a highway construction project) and a man close
    		to her bent over and ripped his pants.  He had bent
    		over *away* from her when it happened.
    
    			He turned to look at her and she said,
    		"Nice view, guy" and smiled.

    			She was driving a company car (with a logo
    		on it) so he called up her company, ranting and raving
    		about her comment.
    
    			Many men *think* they would love the attention,
    		but this guy was as livid as any woman might have been
    		in the same situation.
    
    								S...

    It took awhile before I "woke up and smelled the coffee".  I used
    to think that if a guy whistled, tipped his sunglasses off of his
    eyes to have a look, hung out the window of a car while his friends
    drove by on Daytona Beach and said, "Hey, baby, what hotel are you
    staying at?", he was "really interested in getting to know ME?"
    What a joke but when you are 21, pre-adult/post-adolescence, you
    feel good that some guy noticed you.
    
    BUT NOW!  That really stinks to see this happen and when it happens
    to me, I ignore it.  I used to make comments back but that always
    got me into trouble.  I keep my comments to myself and my eyes straight
    ahead.
    
    As for horn blowers, they are a nuicance.
    
    Cathy

    You mention "guys" as plural. the guy blowing the horn
    is trying to impress his buddy, NOT you. Ego deficiency.
    Throw him a wink - he'll probably wet himself :-)

    Re :.7  Doing that in the New York Subway will net you a fine.

    It's also disgusting.

    Re :.0

    Can I ask you to describe your thoughts about WHY you are
    offended by this?  It's sometimes difficult to transcend
    the barrier of emotions, I know, but could you list out
    what it is about being hnked at that makes you upset?

    Michael

	One of the things that I hear woman SAYING & some men NOT HEARING
	is there is a difference in complimenting someone & harrassing
	them.  	I also hear from men that women don't know how to take a 
	compliment or that they are "agressive woman libbers".

	While there are differences in what a particular woman considers a 
	compliment, I think the below statements are general enough that most 
	of us women would place the incidents in the general categories I used.
	Also must of us (females) have had similar things happen.

	I also stated why I felt OK or not-OK when they happened.
	
	These incidents happened all on 1 evening.  Which means that I was 
	dressed up but in the same way & was in about the same mood/frame 
	of mind when they happened.  They all took place within an hour of 
	each other.  I was at one of the sports arenas in Denver, which 
	means there were alot of men.  I was not escorted that evening.
	Also, the appearance of the men did not make a difference.

	
	OK category --

	I was walking down the street & noticed several cars slowing down
	to look at me.  A few honked but did not scream any obscenities.

	I felt somewhat flattered.


	Not OK --

	One car came very near to the curb, slowed down, & stayed just
	behind me for about 1/2 block.  While I didn't look behind me
	I knew that they were there.  I also could hear them talking
	but could not hear what was being said.  They finally passed.

	One car had several young guys in it.  they too slowed down & then
	proceeded to make suggestive remarks

		In both of these cases, the reason I felt not_OK was 
		because I became frightened.  Was this all that they
		were going to do?  Somehow my personal space had been
	        invaded.

	OK --

	I  was trying to find the main ticket office & as I result of
	being lost had to walk by the same place twice.  On the second
	time I walked but some guy said "I meant to tell you the first
	time that you came by that you are a very pretty lady."  (ed. note
	Beauty is in the eye of the beholder).  I thanked him & continued
	walking.

		The man had very graciously said the above, no malice was in
		his voice, he did not use any off-color words, nor did he try 
		to invade my personal space by coming near me.  He was in
		his 40s or 50s & appeared as if he were living on the street.
		Definitely not good looking.

	Definitely NOT OK --	

	As I was getting near the arena, I stopped to rest (I was wearing
	high heels).   Lots of people were walking by but 2 or 3 guys walked
	very near me & one of them ran his hand over the top or my thigh &
	onto my bottom.  He also made a remark.  There was no mistaking what 
	he did.  I was so startled that he was gone before I could react.

		How dare he think that his feelings were the only ones
		important, that it didn't matter if I wanted him to
	        touch me  & that all I was was a sex object, not a human
		being like it was.  He was nice looking & may have gotten a 
		lot farther if he would have approached me with more respect.


	Sometimes I think the guys do it to look macho.  I don't think
	they really want anything but to be noticed, but feel that they
	can't make an impression on you by being "normal" (low self-esteem).


	Jayna

>>		How dare he think that his feelings were the only ones
>>		important, that it didn't matter if I wanted him to
>>	        touch me  & that all I was was a sex object, not a human
>>		being like it was.  He was nice looking & may have gotten a 
                           ^^  
			That's an unintentional typo & should read "he".
                        I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
			


	Jayna

    Your reply leaves me somewhat at a loss.

    First of all, i'm with you on the last situation, if someone
    touches you when you do not want to be touched by him, he
    should lose that hand he touched you with, no question
    about it.

    However, your comments about how one of the men was
    NOT ATTRACTIVE and the other one was NICE LOOKING
    [and would have gotten alot further ...] leaves
    me wondering about it all...



    

    That sounded like nice a compliment to me and has nothing to do with
    the kind of thing brought up in the rest of these notes.  What's
    being discussed in the other notes doesn't seem all that minor when
    you consider that many of us have been dealing with these odious
    situations since about the age of seven, and will be fielding all
    kinds of verbal assaults for the duration...
    
    I think the previous noters have given just a taste of what it's
    like to be harrassed in public and don't recall anyone describing
    any really ugly incidents.
    
    One of the main things I like about WOMANNOTES is that it can be a
    therapeutic tool by allowing us women to express all kinds of feelings,
     including the most negative.
    

    .18 was in reply to .13.  (Alot of people entered replies before
    I finished writing!)

Face it, people. There are some men who just don't like women, and
harrassment is their way of letting you know how they feel. They'll do it
blatantly if they feel they can get away with it, and if not they'll find a
way to do it underhandedly. Some of them do it with brutality and some do it
with more finesse, but it's woman-hating all the same.

Don.

RE: .20
	I assume that .0 was angry, not because she blew a relatively
	harmless situation out of proportion, but because it's rude, and
	it happens all the time, and society says it's okay to be rude
	if it's a man being rude to a women.  What makes honking a horn
	any different than pointing or staring at someone?  Both are
	considered rude things to do.   Do they only honk at "pretty"
	women?  Why don't we make these men carry cards with numbers
	on them so they can instantly rate any women they see? 

	A compliment depends on the intent behind it, as well as in the
	manner it is delivered and the social situation you're in.  


	...Karen

    re.23 Karen, it's funny you mentioned carrying rating cards.  I
    was going to enter a story about a time when I was about 15, just
    barely into puberty and not that well endowed, but enough is enough.
    I was on a field trip to hampton beach and some of the high school
    jocks (from another school) were holding up cards as the women walked
    on the boardwalk.  I don't remember my score but I do remember that
    I didn't want to walk by for fear of being labeld a 2 or 8 or whatever
    they wanted to give me.  I did notice that some of the more outgoing
    girls in the group enjoyed the attention.  They came off with 9's
    and 10's.   Geeessh!  I can still remember that day and it was 11
    years ago.
    
    I haven't seen many cards on the beach but there are alot of guys
    holding up hands with fingers 1 through 10 sticking up.

    This type of "harrassment" is something that happens almost every
    day to me.  I am not a 21 year old who is flattered by this type of 
    behavior, nor do I believe that men honk, wink or whatever turns them 
    on to "get to know me better".  However, I have never felt this as a 
    type of "harrassment".  I (of course) ignore it, and just consider
    the source immature.  But I am personnaly not harrased by someone
    "noticing" either my face or my body.  (If I were ugly and/or
    shapeless) then I probably would feel harrassed.
    
    On the other hand, when it becomes a matter of followig me and making
    sexualy remarks, that's when the harrassment comes in.
    
    So, as far as I'm concerned, they can honk and wink all they want,
    but as long as they look but don't touch!!!!!!! (because, then I
    get mad)
    
    CC
    
    

    This is my statement to potential harrassers:
    
    How I look is none of your business.  I am not in the same location
    as you are for any reason that has anything to do with you.  I do
    not want to see or hear any evaluation of my body/face/clothing
    from you.  Expression of approval or disapproval is harrassment
    to me if I am not in relationship with you. 
    
    I am a person who is a lot more than anything you can see, especially
    if you don't know me.  I do not want to be responded to by a stranger.
    Think whatever you like, but don't confuse the issue by being rude
    enough to express it out of context.

    re -1:
    
    Right on, Sister.  It's an invasion of my personal space to get this
    kind of rudenesss.  However, like a lot of other noters, I am rather
    used to it and ignore it and consider the slime-ball, pea-brain source.
    
    	-Ellen

    Don't you think you are judging someone by
    how they look/act rather than the true self
    that they really are.

re.28

We have  no  real  way  of getting in and sensing other's "true" self, so we
have  to  go  by what they present. People _can_ show *who* they are through
their actions, words, grooming, notes, ... 

Most people  judge  others,  I  guess  I don't see how we can see their true
selves unless they present that.  

I, of course, judge people by their galoshes (sp? shoe coverings)  ;-)

- Linda

    Re:  .0, an excellent topic!  There was an earlier reply that had
    something to do with not looking like a victim.  I jog quite a bit
    by myself.  I never feel comfortable jogging past a group of men,
    because in the past I have been an object of rude comments.  (Ex.
    Hey baby, I like your _____.)  I have found that if I stare back
    and say to the ONE I am staring at, "Hows it goin", then I will
    not get rude comments in my direction.  One of the times that
    someone did make a rude comment (and I mean a DISGUSTING
    rude comment) I stopped and made a comment "Hey jerk, how would
    you like it if someone said that to your kid sister or your mom?"
    Well it shut him up and made him think, because he seemed almost
    apologetic.
    
    
    Why should I have to feel guilty about being a woman??
                 

        Well, just to distinguish myself from the men who never do
        anything wrong, yet without siding with those who feel they've
        just gotta get their insulting licks in... 
        
        I'm perfectly willing to admit that I take great pleasure in
        seeing attractive women. At times it is a clearly a sexual
        pleasure but more often it is just the pure joy of life--the
        same pleasure I take in looking at trees, the sky or lithe and
        healthy animals--just the joy of life pulsing through the
        universe.
        
        Several times a day I will pass a young lady in the street or
        the corridor and find my head turning and my gaze lingering. I
        know this bothers some women so I try to make it not be obvious
        to them (as opposed to the "sliding your sun glasses down to
        indicate appreciation" school of girl watching). In fact, when I
        do slip and it is obvious that I'm looking I feel embarrassed
        and will appollogize if the opportunity is clear. 
        
        On the one hand I have no desire to insult or offend any woman
        (or anybody for that matter), and on the other hand I really
        enjoy the look of an attractive woman (not the style of
        beautiful that graces magazine covers, but something a little
        less artificial). I understand my enjoyment is not the only
        criterion of right or wrong, and will therefore do what I can to
        keep from offending, but at the same time I don't feel committed
        to denying myself the pleasure of "girl watching" (although as I
        age fewer and of the ladies who attract my attention could be
        categorized as "girls".)
        
        I think my experience is a common one, although the sexual
        component of the attraction seems to be stronger in many
        of my male friends. Often the women who catch me gaze just
        for esthetic reasons seem to be less noticed by them. 
        
        I do know that when several of us are talking in the corridor it
        is not an infrequent an occurance that an attractive woman will
        go by and a sentence will be paused or fumbled as the speakers
        attention wanders. The usual reaction is for all to just look
        knowingly at each other, acknowledging the shared and somewhat
        illicit pleasure we take in "girl watching". I say "illict"
        because the look is often a little sheepish. I assume that it is
        so considered because we know that if the woman in question
        noticed it would be embarrassing to her or some-such. Perhaps
        it is felt to be disloyal to one's own lady love.
        
        It is quite rare for any of this to happen when the group
        talking includes one or more women, although that has happened
        with me in the presence of very close lady friends. I take
        it that indulging in this pass time is something we all feel
        a little guilty about or at least unwilling to do in "mixed
        comapny."
        
        Occasionally, at least in the crew I hang around and work with,
        someone will make a comment about how attention grabbing the
        woman in question is or at least in what manner she is so
        noticable. Such comments will generally be moderately restrained
        (the classic "oo-la-la", "I think I'm in love", or "greaaat
        legs"). Occasionally they will be a little cruder than that.
        Such comments are, so far as I am aware, always only for the
        benefit of the fellow watchers and not the watched young lady,
        and spoken sufficiently quietly to not carry. Personally, I
        seldom say more than perhaps just a sigh, as I would feel
        terrible to be over-heard. 
        
        When I am walking alone and tere are multiple ways to get where
        I'm going, I will admit that I am more likely to take the turn
        taken by an attractive female than the other, but I won't go out
        of my way to follow someone. Also, I tend to walk faster than
        most people, and normally end up passing whoever I am walking
        behind. I will not (at least consciously) slow my pace to keep
        from passing an attractive woman and thus prolonging things.
        
        Finally, I am moderately open about complimenting female
        colleagues and lady friends when they are looking their best or
        wearing something nice. I am more likely to compliment the
        clothes of someone I know less well and the general appearence
        of someone I know better. I would guess that it feels more
        imperssonal nad thus more appropriate to a more distant
        acquaintance to speak of the clothes rather than the person
        or body.
        
        All of this I suppose, could be interepretted as harrassing or
        selfish. It is not intended as such. The compliments certainly
        are meant quite honestly. I appreciate the effort that people
        put into clothes (I sew some myself) and into dressing up, and
        figure it might as well not go unnoticed. The "girl watching" is
        intended as a harmless pleasure, and moderate care is taken to
        keep it that way.
        
        I don't know if it sheds any light on the behavior of car
        honkers or those who go out of their way to make their
        attentions noticed, but there's how it loooks from my side of
        the "fence".
        
        JimB. 

    Good morning.
    
    Lemmesee.  As I was walking back from the store, and contemplating
    writing the base note, it did cross my mind that the incident could
    seem very minor.  It is minor.  But things like this are also 
    relatively frequent, without any provocation on my part.  
    
    Someone accurately diagnosed the anger in .0 as directed at myself.
    Such situations make me angry with myself because I don't handle
    them well.  I *make do* with walking on, staring straight ahead.
    I am not particularly confrontational, hate to fight.  Mostly I
    feel as though this is just one more thing I can't do anything about.

    If you stack up years of *moments* of feeling helpless, no matter
    how minor, I can't help wondering if you don't get a tad neurotic.
    (Some might feel I already am! ;-)
    
    Helen
    

.30>    Why should I have to feel guilty about being a woman??
                 
        You shouldn't: why allow the situation make you?
        
general:
        
        This behaviour is merely loutish. There are many responses. 
        
        You could ignore it. Unfortuanetely that rarely makes it stop (they
        may react as if you haven't heard the first time and repeat the
        offense).
        
        You can wink at them or wiggle your hips or whatever: this will
        probably embarass h**l out of them. After all they are basically
        displaying their insecurity.
        
        You can "snap back". The earlier comment about spitting is one way,
        or you can "give them the finger"... A few years ago I had a long
        vacation in Italy and noticed that (a) this sort of macho behaviour
        is very common, and (b) a very common response is a typically Italian
        gesture of flicking the upper front teeth at the offender (hard
        to describe properly if you've never seen it - it is considered
        quite an insult in Italy!). One reaction I remember vividly was
        that the woman turned towards the man put her hands on her hips
        and stared at him for maybe ten seconds then very deliberately gave
        him a "thumbs down" sign.
        
        /. Ian .\

    JimB,

    Relax.  Here is a non-harassment that occured at work several months
    ago:

    I was walking down a corridor, and ahead of me was a group of
    men talking.  As I approached, the fellow talking glanced in my
    direction, and (perhaps I hit the right point in his karma) stopped
    talking in mid-sentence, leaving his mouth just a little open.
    Naturally, everyone else turned to see what he was looking at.  I
    passed them in total silence.  After I passed, a second guy said,
    ostensibly to the original speaker, "You're just jealous because
    you legs don't look like that."

    This is good stuff.  The original reaction was clearly NOT calculated,
    and the response was wonderfully non-sexist.  (Thank you, whoever.)

    What you do is that sort of thing.  Don't sweat it.  But keep it
    inadvertant. ;-)


    Ian,

    Lemme see.  Hmmm.  Try to look at the situation from this angle:

    The man making the signal is, on some level, saying "You are my
    possession.  I'm entitled to you."  (To give a graphic and streamlined
    example:  In the thirties, a Negro man was lynched for whistling
    at a Caucasian girl.  This was Not Acceptable -- but how she felt
    about it was STILL not a consideration.)

    How the woman reacts to it demonstrates whether she seems to be
    agreeing with him or disagreeing.  "Wink at them or wiggle your hips
    or whatever:" is agreeing.  It does not matter if it embarasses
    them.  The active disagreeing (spitting, et al.) has, as has been
    mentioned, a certain degree of risk, specifically because the man
    feels Entitled and has no intention of being disenfranchised.
    Ignoring it, if done sufficiently pointedly (and that is worthy
    of lengthy analysis), signals "You are not even part of the same
    world as me.  You have nothing to do with me period."

    Does this give you another slant on this sort of thing?

    							Ann B.

  Re: .30

  >I stopped and made a comment "Hey jerk, how would
  >you like it if someone said that to your kid sister or your mom?"
  >Well it shut him up and made him think, because he seemed almost
  >apologetic.

  Good job!

  JP    
    
                 

.34:�   Does this give you another slant on this sort of thing?
 
	Not really: I had already come to that conclusion ... I just didn't
        communicate my thoughts very well. The "wink etc" responce was prompted
        by something I once saw in a police handout on how to handle obscene
        phone calls, which suggested agreeing with the lout and even
        anticipating as this is [sometimes] more than they can handle so
        they veer off.
        
        I guess the parallel isn't very good (and maybe the advice wasn't
        either).

        The active response was based on observation: if however you don't
        feel confortable with the former (and I could quite understand that
        reaction), and don't feel safe with the latter, I guess all you
        can do is ignore them.
        
        /. Ian .\
        

    
    
    Seeing fellow waitresses put up with harassment on the job in the
    hopes of better tips makes me want to scream. Just because I smile
    at a guy and ask him if he wants something to drink (in a non-alcohol
    bar) does NOT mean I will go home with him. Thank god our boss let's
    us use our judgement in dealing with these creeps. A good example
    is one night a guy grabbed another waitress by the waist and tried
    to kiss her. One of the security guys was near enough to grab him
    but ended up not having to. She slammed him between the legs with
    her tray. The security guard (s) then escorted him right out the
    door. It is usually alot worse with a group of guys (four or more)
    sitting together. 
    
    
    
    
    

    
    
    I'll tell you how I spell harassment - (and this happened twice
    in two days!) :
    
    I was grocery shopping without my husband along (he usually goes
    with me) and I was approached by a man who asked if I were married.
    When I replied that I was, he asked "Are you happy?"
    
    The second occasion (also in a grocery store) I was approached
    and asked out.  I said, "No thanks, I'm married."  He said,
    "So?"  
    
    I wanted to *kill* both of them!  Isn't being married a good enough reason
    or should I tell them that even if I weren't, I'd never date the
    likes of them?!  That's more infuriating to me than any whistler
    or horn-blower (although those make me uncomfortable, too).
    
    Vicki 
       

    
    We are talking about two things here..... compliments vs harassment.
    And the difficulty of some to know the difference between the two.
    Of course, what one person might call a compliment some one else
    (or maybe the rest of the world) would call harrassment.
    
    A compliment makes me feel good, harassment usually makes me want
    to punch someone's lights out (even just reading about it.... YEA!
    to the waitress with the tray, by the way!)
    
    I usually wear dark sunglasses when I am out walking/driving, mainly
    because I need them, but I have also found that without the eye
    contact, most harassers go away rather quickly. It also allows me
    to view the scenery, without causing anyone else embarrassment.

    I think the comment made by an early note (don't remember the number
    right now) about it harassment being a way of the harasser to get
    attention for themself is quite accurate. Compliments are usually
    offered in a way that doesn't draw attention, just the opposite of
    actions that are usually considered harassment. The few times I have
    been in the mood to respond to a jerk by flipping them the finger, I
    have ended up being mad at myself for getting down to their level and
    for even bothering to acknowledge them, and since a reaction from me
    seemed to egg them on even more, it didn't serve the purpose I wanted
    it to. So most of the time I ignore them if I can (it also keeps me out
    of trouble - as opposed to punching them....) 
    
    I guess some people never leave adolescence!
    
    janet b.

Two incidents come easily to mind, though not in crystal detail.

The first happened when I was 16, working at my first job as a waitress.
A couple of men came into the restaurant and sat down at a table within
my service area.  I remember the man who was rude as being dressed in 
black -- sharkskin suit, dark shirt and black tie, black leather shoes, 
sleek black hair, dark glasses.  He hissed at me from the moment I 
brought menus.  After bringing him and his cohort their coffee, I refused 
to go back to the table.  After a conference with the rest of the 
waitresses, it was decided that none of us would wait on them and I told 
the manager so.  He asked them to leave.

The second happened about 6 years ago.  I was at an office Christmas party,
walking behind a man who suddenly turned an grabbed me between the legs.  
I was so shocked I only pushed him away with my hand to his chest.  I'd 
wished I'd kicked him in the groin, later.

CQ

    My goodness, how violent we're getting!
    
    Somewhere along the line, this discussion involved the difference
    between a compliment and verbal harrassment. I agree that what is
    clearly the former to some people can be perceived as clearly the
    latter by others - and not just because of the level of assumed
    familiarity. 
    
    The other day, a friend happened to mention that he had read some of
    the "Cheryl Tiegs" note, and had considered posting the ~/~ reply,
    "Only plain women are threatened by pinups," or something along those
    lines. Now, while I'm not rabidly opposed to pinups per se, it seems to
    me that there's a wee bit of truth here - at least regarding one's
    self-image, and how that affects one's reaction to public comments
    about one's appearance. 
    
    I have never considered myself particularly good-looking; I was puny
    and mousy, pimply and pale all during junior high and high school.
    Whenever I walk past a group of males who proceed to hoot or make
    remarks, I automatically assume that they are making fun of me. In
    fact, my personal paranoia about this can go so far as to make me
    cringe when I hear *any* derisive-sounding laughter on the street; I
    can't help feeling that whoever it is is laughing at me, whether I have
    any indication that it is or not. 

    Now, the teenage hooligans or the horn-honkers may well be *trying* to
    insult or otherwise annoy the women they "compliment" by their
    attentions. Whether they mean to hurt, or to get attention, or to
    impress or amuse their companions at the expense of a stranger,
    ignoring them seems to be the most effective (and least dangerous)
    response, though not always the most satisfying. 
    
    But those who mean to compliment someone might do well to think
    carefully about what they say. Invariably, if someone I don't know well
    should compliment me on my appearance, I take it as a sign of
    insincerity, or else as a way of criticizing my usual appearance ("You
    look so much better than you usually do...")! While freely admitting
    that this is a quirk of mine, due to many years of a poor self-image, I
    think it might explain why some people do not react to compliments in
    the way the complimenter thought/hoped they would. 
    
    To me, remarks like, "You look chipper today" are more acceptable than
    "Is that a new hairstyle? It suits you." (The latter remark usually
    follows a disastrous experiment of some kind, and I have to force
    myself not to reply, "I thought it was hideous myself; thank you so
    much." It takes someone who is sensitive to *my* likes and dislikes to
    recognize when I've tried something that I approve of.) Again, "I like
    that shirt" sits better with me than "You ought to wear that suit more
    often." 
    
    These days I do try to accept any compliments I get, even if I suspect
    them of being back-handed, with a simple "Thank you." If the
    complimenter happens to have hit on something I *am* proud of, they
    might get a more effusive thanks. 
    
    [Caution: If any of my friends happen to read this and proceed to greet
    me with "You look chipper," I am liable to deck you on general
    principles. You know who you are. :-)] 

    Any kindred souls out there?
    
    -b

<--(.44)  The "violent" reference is to responses .41 and .43, now
    deleted at the author's request as having been an ill-considered
    rathole.  Response .42 was deleted summarily because while it was
    sound cautionary advice, it depended on .41 for context.
    
    						=maggie

    Is it policy of the 'moderator[s]' of this conference
    to delete notes without informing the author?

    

    I do apologise if I offended you, Michael; that wasn't my intention.
    In retrospect I can see that it would not have taken so very
    long to have let you know personally, by mail, but I was feeling
    rushed and didn't consider how you might react.  I won't make the
    same mistake again if I get the chance.
    
    (And, no, it isn't the policy...every case gets decided on an ad
    hoc basis <wry grin>)
    
    						in Sisterhood,
    						=maggie

    Well, having thoroughly derailed the discussion, what shall we talk
    about now?
    
    -b

    Do you think the US will ever convert to Metric?

I thought there were a lot of neat ideas in this note, so when I saw
this cute chick walking down the corridor yesterday, I let out a
subtle, but appreciative whistle.

She turned around and looked at me, then just giggled.

What am I doing wrong.

Martin.

    WOW.  Unless you know the "cute chick" I request that you never
    do something like that at work again.  This is a very strong   
    request, I am shaking.  Someone (unknown to me) whistled at me
    once about 6 years ago at work here at DEC.  I ignored him,
    continued on into the lab to get my listing, and then came out
    of the lab.  He was there, and apologised, saying he thought I
    was someone he knew.  I have never forgotten that situation and
    how I felt.  It is humiliating, ESPECIALLY at work where I strive
    be a respected software engineer by doing the best job I can.
    
    I have since thought many times about that instance and what I
    would do if someone ever does it again.  Chances are good I will
    ignore it.  But if I manage the courage, I will turn around and
    demand the person's name and badge number and the person's supervisor's
    name and badge number, and report the instance as sexual harassment.
    
    I am shaking.
    
    					Karen.

    Why don't you all just mellow the out and stop
    screaming 'Sexual Harrasmenent' for something as lame
    as the things i've read here.

    There are MANY other situations that deserve a
    label like that and I don't feel that this is
    one.

    Jeeeez, it's like putting out a match with 
    a fire extinguisher.

    Oh, and i've been whistled at and you don't see ME
    running to Peronsel.  IN fact, it was a personel
    person who whistled.

    .52&.53  Before you get any flames, let's explore (if you and others
    will oblige) what you said.   You are not offended if someone draws
    attention to your body (whereever it happens--I use the extreme
    of whereever since I consider work a pretty extreme place for attention
    to be drawn to one's body if the work doesn't relate to one's body,
    ie, isn't modeling or some such).   However, you are implying that
    since you don't mind being 'a body' to a stranger, there is no reason
    that others should mind if they are made into 'a body' by a stranger.
    Some people (obviously :)!--and myself included) do mind.
    
    I think you believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that a whistle is
    complimentary.   I know I believe that while it may be intended
    to be complimentary, all it does is whittle me down to just a body.
    
    Tamar

    Disclaimer:

    I'd like to make mention that it has been pointed out
    to me that it was not mentioned with what part of the
    anatomy Martin whistled with.  

    Re :-1

    Well, what ELSE are you to someone's eyes other
    than a body?

    Suggested reading:	Being and Nothingness, by Jean-Paul Sartre
			Chapter:    The Look

    You might find it interesting.

    
    re: .54, and perhaps the topic in general
    
    You are claiming to know the mind of someone else with that statement,
    specifically, the whistler.
    
    Why is it wrong if one person expresses the opinion that another is
    good looking?  That's about all you can be sure about when something
    like this occurs, you know.  Making snap judgements like that will
    cause no end of problems.  This concept of reducing one person to just
    a body is an awful lot to get out of an expression like a whistle.
    A case could be made that such thinking is reducing a person to
    an attitude.  Men don't like being prejudged more than anyone else.
    
    DFW
    knowing I'm gonna get it for this one

    Re .50, .51:
    
    This is a clasical example of why the much-loathed "smiley-face"
    is needed.  Straight-faced irony is impossible in notes.  There
    is *NO* statement so outrageous, so self-evidently preoposterous,
    that *someone* won't take it seriously.
    
    	-Neil

    RE .50 & .56 
    Actually, I thought the story was kind of cute, but I wanted to explain
    (or try to) why some people (particularly me) find being whistled at
    unpleasant.
    
    RE .56
    First note that the whistler has invaded the person walking by's
    space not the other way round...
    And then, supposing the person whistled at had Karen's highly negative
    response to being whistled at.     What approach by Karen to ask
    the whistler not to whistle would work?    
                                  
    Tamar

    re: .58
    
    Like I said, spit at 'em.  Gross, inappropriate, response in kind
    brings one down to the level of the offender, but at least it gets
    it our of your system.  [:-) ... sort of]
    
    Lee

    Consider this.  What if the woman a man whistled at turned out to
    to be a VP or some other highly-positioned female?
    
    	-Ellen

    Then she would most likely say thank you and keep
    on walking since if she is at that high a level
    in this company, she must have a thick skin or
    be fairly mature.

re .lots:

A car honking or a man whistling at an attrcative member of the opposite sex
are pretty crude means of communication but hardly sexual harrasement 
unless very frequent. I'm now wondering whether it is OK to smile at an 
attractive member of the opposite sex without them feeling that I'm drawing 
attention to their body and demeaning them as a human being? Can I say 'I 
think you are very attractive'? Can I offer to buy them lunch? What are the 
acceptable approaches that are allowed? I vote for formal introductions by 
both parties parents after suitable negoiations.

Dave ;^)

    
    Slight digression:
    
    Seen on a male exployee's whiteboard:
    
    "The woman you insult may be your boss."
    
    OK, now back to our regularly scheduled discussion:
    
    re: .58
    
    "invasion of space"
                                
    I always have trouble with this particular abstraction, because
    I'm particularly good at ignoring things.  I'm willing to buy that
    up to a point, but I'm just not going to believe that every man
    who whistles at a woman (or vice versa) is looking to reduce her
    to a sex object or harass her.
    
    Unfortunately, as I said, I'm good at ignoring things, and I don't
    have any suggestions for people who aren't good at ignoring things
    who are being harassed by some class of chain-driven idiot.
    
    DFW

    
      Re:  .62
    
           I don't think so!
    

        I'm hesitant to step into this one, because it quite closely
        resembles the "Cheryl Tiegs" "discussion", and my wounds
        are still not quite healed from that one.
        
        Nevertheless, I still haven't quite decided whether to actually
        rejoin this conference... and I suppose if things haven't
        gotten any more considerate, I might as well find out quickly.
        
        First off, I'm only commenting on the last few replies, since
        I haven't read the entire topic.  This is probably pretty
        much irrelevant, since discussion almost always follows the
        course of replies and it's rare for a high numbered reply
        to relate directly to the topic note anyway.
        
        OK... here and in other notes, I see an unwillingness to concede
        that anyone can appreciate the appearance of another person
        without somehow reducing that person to "an object", or "a body"
        as someone put it a few replies ago. 
        
        On the contrary, I claim there's absolutely no relationship.
        I am perfectly capable, if I should ever so desire, to treat
        someone as an object whose appearance I consider unpleasant.
        Furthermore, I am perfectly capable of treating a person
        whose appearance I admire as a full-fledged person.  I believe
        most anyone is capable of these things.
        
        I do not whistle at women.  There's probably two reasons
        for this... first, I consider it a bit rude to intrude that
        way; and second, I never managed to learn to whistle loud
        enough to do anything but embarrass myself anyway.
        
        However, I do admire women who are attractive, as they pass.
        I usually manage to accomplish this admiration quietly, without
        staring or following them, and (as far as I can tell) usually
        without attracting much attention... but I do look.  My eyes
        are not disconnected, and I happen to find the feminine form
        pleasant.
        
        Of course, I'm as much a "people watcher" as a "girl watcher",
        and I tend to observe anyone around me... though my attention
        is less likely to be focused on an attractive man than on
        an attractive woman, I'm not unappreciative.
        
        Barbara (that's my wife) is the only woman who provokes anything
        approximating sexual interest in me.  With anyone else, of
        any sex, in person or in pictures, my interest is entirely
        aesthetic.
        
        I fail to see why anyone would feel more insulted because
        I appreciate their body than because I appreciate their mind.
        Neither is a measure of the entire person; neither is something
        the individual has true control over, though both can be
        deliberately enhanced by application of skill and effort.
        
        Of course, if you believe that someone who appreciates your
        appearance considers the rest of you to be unimportant, I
        can understand your discomfort.  But what gives you the right
        to judge their intent?
        
        If your boss compliments you on your brilliant solution to
        a problem, do you feel insulted because she omitted mention
        of your bright and witty personality, or your taste and skill
        in selection and application of your classy Reeboks, jeans,
        and chamois-shirt (which just happens to be my wardrobe at
        the moment)?  If so, why?  If not, why do you feel insulted
        because someone has complimented you---or even someone else
        you've never met---on appearance and omitted the other aspects
        which make a complete person?
        
        Is it truely necessary that every glance, every word, and
        every action must encompass the full scope of each person's
        being?  I submit that such a concept is utterly absurd...
        and impossible.
        
        Again... there are people who treat others as non-persons,
        "objects".  Men who feel any attractive woman is available for
        sex and has no other purpose.  And women who feel the same way,
        of course.  Nothing I have said, here or in the "Cheryl Tiegs"
        note, is any attempt to justify these people.
        
        The point is simply that not everyone is like that... and
        you do those of us who are not a disservice by assuming the
        character failings are universal.  Those who *are* like that
        deserve your scorn and distrust... and have mine as well.
        But mere appreciation of another's form has no correlation
        with these traits.
        
        	/dave

    I am severely bummed. It's happening again in this note. Several
    people, who happen to be women, are talking about what they consider
    harassment (sexual), and why [hey guys, when was the last time *you*
    felt sexually harassed? we can talk about that too you know...].
    Several other people, who happen to be men, are saying that its
    immature or unreasonable of them to feel that way. Thanx for the
    support folks! Glad to know you're listening and learning!
    
    Either it's gender experience, or notes as a communications medium,
    but I see several people trying to work through a personal experience,
    and several other people attacking the validity of that experience.
    
    And on the suggestion that only overt sexual harassment is worth
    our time: I would suggest that most overt sexual harassment is gone
    from DEC. I suggest that it's time to work on the subtle sexism.
    And to do that, we need to work on what subtle sexism is. But to
    do that, we need to agree there is such a thing.
    
    This note is a prime example of ignoring the 24-hour cool off law.
    grrrrrr...
    	Mez

        .69: But you're demonstrating exactly the problem we have.
        You insist on seeing any appreciation of yourself as "sexual
        harassment".  There's simply no way I can accept that.
        
        Well, let's rephrase that for clarity: I can accept that
        you *do* see it as harassment, but there's no way I can possibly
        agree with you, nor am I going to give up appreciation of
        the human form because you feel that way, even if I could...
        which I couldn't.
        
        Your anger is unproductive, and unnecessary.  Can you attempt
        to explain your feelings in any less confrontational terms?
        I.e., other than "it's sexual harassment so stop it"?  Like,
        what do you mean by "sexual harassment" in this case, and
        how does simply looking at someone qualify?
        
        Certainly if you define appreciation for one's appearance as
        "sexual harassment", then it is, within that narrow scope.  But
        I can define "monkey" as "a small aquatic creature with scales
        and gills and lots of teeth", and then point at such a creature
        and say "monkey".  I'd be equally right... but it wouldn't do
        much for communication. 
        
        I'm getting the distinct feeling that my return to this
        conference will be short-lived.  Which, I suppose, would
        probably make quite a few people much happier---likely including
        myself. 
        
        	/dave

    re: .63
    
    I don't think honking and whisting are specifically *sexual* harassment.
    They're basically inconsiderate intrusions on one's life.  It is
    abundantly clear that we're meant to at least grin and bear it, if
    not thank the perpetrator of the "compliment".  
    
    
    Re: .69  I'm with Mez.  Let's stick to the 24 hour rule.
    

    Re: can't remember which ... (by Mr. Mahler, I believe)
    
    The US'll never go metric.  (See, I waited 24 hours and didn't flame
    Mike :-)
    
    Helen
    
    
    

        Hmmm... in case anyone gets confused by .67 referring to
        .67... the author musta gotten in really quick.  When I entered
        my note, as it appeared after exiting the edit, I saw this
        annoying glaring typo (even DECspell has limits), and quickly
        deleted it to make the correction... and thus the reply ended
        up with my original number.  Argh.
        
        	/dave

    <--(.68 ...though how Tom responded to your reply before you wrote
    it is a mystery :'} )
    
    Dave, I agree with you:  we certainly should not judge intent based
    on little or no evidence.  On the other hand, are we any further
    ahead if we take the position that no matter what the behavior,
    no descriptive or predictive conclusions can be drawn?  
    
    Nobody is arguing that people haven't the right to appreciate whatever
    they feel moved to appreciate at some moment, including bodies of the
    same or different sex/race/coloring/age/whatever according to how the
    random factors align. What *is* being argued here is that people who
    *express* their appreciation in some obtrusive way are, ipso facto,
    guilty of at least a temporary lack of civility if not worse.
    
    Imagine:  you wake up tomorrow morning having undergone a subtle
    transformation such that you are now very attractive to *everyone*. And
    *everyone* you encounter, no matter how casually, lets you know how
    attractive you are to them by stopping/staring/whistling/honking/
    touching/calling out/making suggestions, each according to what they
    think is the right way to express the appreciation they feel.  How
    would you feel?
    
    						=maggie 

        .71: Maybe eventually I'll get off this topic before someone
        writes a new reply!  Nah, too optimistic.
        
        Anyway, .71 has a good point... 
        
>   I don't think honking and whisting are specifically *sexual* harassment.
>   They're basically inconsiderate intrusions on one's life.
        
        Indeed... the honking and whistling are annoying, unnecessary
        intrusions, and could certainly be considered "harassment"
        without much effort.  I can't see this harassment as sexual,
        however... and the fact that it may or may not (you can't
        tell) be connected with appreciation of your appearance is
        irrelevant.
        
        Of course, you don't have to guess with even less considerate
        shouted comments... I could accept someone yelling "nice tits"
        as sexual harassment: but again, it's not affected by whether
        the speaker actually likes your breasts, or even *noticed* them.
        It's what was *said* that's obnoxious, not the fact that
        the speaker may in fact have actually seen you.
        
        	/dave

    Re .70:
    
    I don't believe that we do see "appreciation of ourselves" as
    harrassment at all - the harrassment comes in when overt remarks,
    hoots, etc. are made, especially by people whom we do not know in
    circumstances where we aren't likely to get to know them.  As I
    tried to point out in my last reply on this, I do *not* believe
    that I am being complimented when a stranger whistles at me - I
    believe I am being ridiculed. 
    
    Maybe it's generic harrassment instead of sexual, but I do believe
    it is deliberate harrassment. The offenders seem to want to get
    a reaction - annoyed, embarrassed, whatever - rather than to make
    the recipient of their "attentions" happy.
    
    So - you may appreciate me all you like, as long as you don't lay
    it on me. And if you want to pay a compliment, try something that's
    either non-intrusive - the double-take with shy smile, for example
    - or introduce yourself and find out if I'm willing to be approached.
    
    If I wanted to compliment a stranger (celebrities come to mind),
    I would try to keep it polite, brief, and clear - "I enjoy your
    work," rather than "Great ass, Newman!" And if the individual didn't
    seem to welcome the comment I'd back off. (Actually, being me, I'd
    probably blush, cringe, and run - but that's a different problem!)

    Does that make any sense?
    
    -b

    Are two issues separate issues being discussed here?
    
    (1)  Is it ok for a man (person) to appreciate the appearance
    	 of a woman (another person)?  
    
    (2)  Is it harassment for a man to whistle, honk, or otherwise	
    	 call a woman's attention to himself without solicitation?
    
    (1): I certainly hope it's ok.  I will enjoy a woman's appearance,
         just as I enjoy a cat, tree, or cloud.  But Jim Burrows
         has made this point much better than I could.  
    
    (2): This seems just as clear-cut to me.  The issue may not even
         be harassment--maybe it's simple courtesy--but this seems
         totally unacceptable.
    
    They key thing is that point (1) is private--how do I feel when
    I see you--while point (2) is interpersonal--what do I do, and
    how does it make you feel.
    
    Of course, if I'm enjoying looking at you, and doing so so obviously
    that you notice, then we've gotten into a grey area between (1)
    and (2).
    
	-Neil

    Re .74:
    
    	I'd agree that the offense per se is simply harassment, rather
    	than "sexual" harassment, but the fact that its victims are
    	almost always women makes the sexual element unavoidable.
    
    	I'm inclined to agree with the analysis that says that the
    	real message in the whistling or horn-blowing tends to be,
    	"I'm a man, and you're a woman, and that automatically gives
    	me special privileges over you--the right to do things that
    	would be appalling offenses otherwise."
    
    -Neil

In support of Mez (in .69): I have noticed that it's sometimes hard for me
(as a man) to figure out what kinds of things bother women. Example:
one guy can say something that sounds very bland and like an innocuous
compliment (e.g. "I like your earrings") and a woman can feel offended and
harrassed. Why? And then another guy can say something that's outright
sexist (e.g. "Software engineering is no job for a woman") and he gets let
off the hook.  Again, why?

The answer in the first case was: "The guy is just a creep, he's so slimy he
makes ME feel slimy and anything he says is slimy." And the answer in the
second case was "He's just trying to be nice, he doesn't know any better. He
thinks all women should be pampered, and especially me because he likes me."
I find these to be sufficient explanations. These kind of answers tell me
that when women feel harassed they have a GOOD REASON for it, and
furthermore they can explain the reason for it. It might not be obvious to
the outside observer, but it's obvious enough to the woman. I'm especially
interested to hear about the cases of harassement where it is not obvious
until the woman who feels harassed explains what she didn't like about the
situation.

Don.

    Let's look at this another way for a minute.  What if we had friendly
    visitors here from another planet (so friendly, in fact, that they now
    had an embassy here and allowed tourists from their planet to
    frequently vacation here.)

    Let's say that these visitors *JUST HAPPENED* to find humans a rare
    but incredibly delicious delicacy.  In other words, they found us
    *ALL* quite beautiful and interesting -- as food.
    
    Now, let's say that our planet leaders made them promise not to
    attack us for dining purposes (and they all *SWORE* that they wouldn't
    go near us in that way.)
    
    But, as they walked around, they looked at us sort of "hungrily"
    (saying things that amounted to "Yum!!" and smacking their lips.)
    
    The point is -- wouldn't they just be appreciating us???  Wouldn't
    they just be admiring our beauty (the way humans admire hot fudge
    sundaes and turkey dinners)??  Shouldn't we all be flattered (or
    at least not bothered by their admiring glances and by their open
    appreciation for the excellent tone of our meat for cooking -- even
    though they have no intention at all of ever having us for lunch
    in the strict sense of the word?)
    
    I mean, most of them are probably very nice and don't at all mean
    to reduce us from humans to food -- but we are all just so tasty
    that they can't help themselves (and can't see what they are doing
    wrong by merely LOOKING at all of us tasty morsels.)
    
    How would you feel?  If you knew you were safe from them, wouldn't
    the whole thing still give you the creeps (just a little bit?)
    
    Of course, the analogy doesn't work 100% because many women *are*
    attracted to many men.  But the idea is that it is still often creepy
    to be sized up as a work of art.  (Just as creepy as it would be
    to be sized up as an entree, I would imagine.)
    
    							Suzanne...

    
    re .69
    
    > Several other people, who happen to be men, are saying that its
    > immature or unreasonable of them to feel that way.  Thanx for
    > the support folks! Glad to know you're listening and learning!
    
    Apparantly if someone, "who happen to be men", disagrees, we're
    not listening, and learning !  Well did you ever think we are listening
    and learning, that women have gone too far with the sexual harassment,
    and just because , YES you are being harassed that its sexual because
    your female, not the fact that your harassed and your a human being.
    I don't see where a whistle is sexual harassment, after all two
    commercials I know, of the women whistle at the men, Irish Spring,
    and Spice for Men. Maybe I'll call Ralph Nader and complain.
    
    			Mike
    

  Dave, no one is trying to get you to give up appreciation of the human
  form. That is the way you feel and no one can help the way they feel.
  Why is it so hard to see that some of the women recipients of harassment
  can't help the way they feel either?  

  In .70, you say:

          You insist on seeing any appreciation of yourself as "sexual
          harassment".  

  That is not what is happening at all.   Some women have explained here
  that certain types of behavior make them react in certain ways.  Not
  all women -- doubtless there are some women who like being whistled at.
  But you are now in posession of some facts about the way *some* women
  feel about some types of behavior.  And the way they feel is *not* subject
  to debate, any more than is the way you feel about things.

  No one has asked you to change your behavior.  No one even knows what
  your behavior is in this area. Whether or not any of your behavior
  patterns change as a result of what you read here is entirely up to you. 

  But, <expletive eschewed>, *don't* tell these women that they are wrong to
  feel the way they feel.  And that is exactly the message you convey with
  things like "Your anger is unproductive and unnecessary."

  And though I hope you stay in this file, I hope even more that you will
  stop threatening to leave.

  JP

    RE: .76 The two separate issues
    
    Well, they are sort of separate.  There certainly _is_ a big difference
    between someone who quietly looks/appreciates, and someone who honks/
    whistles/offers$$.  The second case is a clear invasion of space,
    especially when the man is not known to the woman.
    
    But I can't tell you how uncomfortable it makes me feel when I am
    talking to someone who is up-and-downing me.  I told a friend once
    how much this guy scared me.  This friend (male) was shocked, "him?!?
     He's harmless as a flea."  Which is true; this guy would never,
    ever rape me, and would probably be mortified to know how much he
    scares me.  But he is _very_ single right now, and just about
    everything about him seems to scream "I want to get l**d NOW!!!",
    and to even try to carry on a conversation with him...
    
    My friends who are male don't notice this.  My female friends don't
    seem to notice it either, but they aren't single (read: prey). And I
    know no single women within 20 years of his age who know him, so I
    don't know if it's just me.  But he still gives me the creeps, and
    he could avoid it if he didn't keep "appreciating" me that way.
    
    Lee

        .81: Don't recast what I've said or what others have said,
        John.  It don't work.  All of your individual points are
        covered in my previous entries, and in this case I shan't
        reiterate.
        
        .79: An amusing, and intriguing, analogy.  But not quite
        valid.  You're assuming that it's "creepy" because these
        aliens are all interested in eating us, regardless of the
        fact that they can be relied upon not to do so.  But isn't
        it more likely that most of them, accepting us as fellow
        intelligent creatures, would *not* be interested in eating
        us?  Just as most men are not interested in persuing their
        abstract appreciation of a woman's appearance any further
        than that?
        
        In other words, most of them wouldn't say, or think, anything of
        the sort.  Many who *did* say so wouldn't think anything of the
        sort, and would be---to their minds---making a compliment or an
        innocent joke.  This is *rude*, but in most cases not especially
        creepy.  Creepy is when one of them starts following you with a
        knife and fork and smacking its lips. 
        
        Having a man do analogous things to a woman would be equally
        creepy, and equally rude.  But assuming that every man wishes to
        do so is simply unfair. 
        
        	/dave

	RE: .77

	yes!!!  that's it exactly.

	RE: others

	I too admire some men's bodies that I see.  But I would never
	call attention to it by whistling or even complimenting them
	unless I knew them very well.  How people feel about their bodies
	is a personal thing, and no-one has the right to comment on it
	unless they really know each other.  I don't think that people
	object to being admired, they object to being thought of as
	objects to be judged on their beauty like paintings are in a
	museum.  It's the feeling of being watched and judged that's
	bad.  And I *know* some men consciously judge every woman they
	see (especially in a bar).  I've been with them, and heard them.
	I don't mind when people are just considered people, and then
	maybe someone's looks catch your eye for some reason, and you
	look more to see why, ("yes, he's really nice looking, if I
	were single, and had an opportunity to meet him, and he was
	nice as well as looking nice, ....").

	...Karen

    Dave, I'd be glad if you would respond to my scenario in .73 (is
    it .73?  Things are moving very briskly since you returned <smile>)
    
    						=maggie

�< Note 271.69 by ULTRA::ZURKO "UI:Where the rubber meets the road" >
�                          -< Subtle sexism - define? >-

�    I am severely bummed. It's happening again in this note. Several
�    people, who happen to be women, are talking about what they consider
�    harassment (sexual), and why [hey guys, when was the last time *you*
�    felt sexually harassed? we can talk about that too you know...].
�    Several other people, who happen to be men, are saying that its
�    immature or unreasonable of them to feel that way. Thanx for the
�    support folks! Glad to know you're listening and learning!
 
     Firstly Mez, let me say that in this particular case I agree with you
     that the behaviour under discussion is unwarranted, illmannered and
     loutish. I am not sure whether I would call it "sexual harrasment"
     but am prepared to admit that if enough people consider it so then
     that is as good a label as any.
     
     However, your response is similar to previous responses (not necesarily
     yours) that seem very close to saying "if you don't agree with me 100%
     then don't respond". Frankly I don't find your comments or anybody
     else's to be axiomatically true. Valid, and deeply felt perhaps, but
     not dogma.
     
     ====
     
     General: I have a bad habit off looking people over when I meet them
     - especially strangers. It once saved my life (I saw the knife a little
     before the mugger pulled it). It's still a bad habit, but it is deeply
     engrained in my "tradecraft" - I just try to do it unobtrusively if
     I am aware of doing it.
     
     ====
     
     /. Ian .\

    RE: .83
    
    So, you think that the aliens would like us for our minds (even
    with the knowledge that we'd be *SUPERB* with the right sauce?)
    
    :-)
    
    See -- the thing is -- even if they *KNEW* they couldn't really
    eat us, they would probably *STILL* look at us with the same sort
    of appreciation that *WE* might give to a leg of lamb.  (Then,
    they'd snicker to each other a little and say, "Well, there's no
    harm in LOOKING, right?")  :-)
    
    How could they possibly STOP themselves from thinking of us as
    food (no matter how much they admire us for our minds)?  No matter
    how much they respect us, it is part of their nature to have admira-
    tion for humans as food.  They wouldn't *MEAN* to size us up for the
    size of their cookware (and they'd justify their feelings like crazy)
    -- but when you went up to one to be friendly and you heard his
    friend let slip, "Wow...what a dish!"   I mean, wouldn't it make
    you at all uncomfortable?
    
    It's not the fear that they might actually eat us -- it's the idea
    that they would be LOOKING at us in a way  that is way APART
    from the self-image we are trying to project.  We go out into the
    world to be seen as intelligent humans.  If someone who came along
    and said that our REAL beauty was how we could decorate a dinner
    table -- well, I just can't help but feel that most of us would
    find the experience unsettling.
    
    						       Suzanne...

    I used to think that men whistled to let a woman know that he was
    interested in her sexually but not interested in her mind, heart,
    or soul.  The singles_bar prowler type, the one_night_stand type,
    The hit_and_run lover.  The kind of guy who wants physical satisfaction
    but does not want to take the time or the trouble to talk_to/get_to_
    know/like or love.  
    (of course....that was back in the days when I got whistled at :-)
    Mary 

    Re .79:
    
    Beautiful, Suzanne.  Thank you.  You've made the point very well;
    and I'm still chuckling, too.
    
	-Neil

    Re .50, what a coincidence, Martin!
    
    The other day I was walking down the hall here at the mill when
    all of a sudden I heard what sounded to me to be a wolf whistle.
     Curious as to who I had inadvertently caused to react in this manner,
    I turned around and looked.  When I saw who it was I just giggled.
    
    You aren't doing anything wrong, Martin, just be careful you keep
    whistling at people you know - at least here at DEC !  :-)
    
    (Oh, hope I didn't ruin your story!)
    
    Lorna
    

    RE: /dave
    
    In all seriousness, I don't honestly know if "harrassment" is the
    right word to use about the way men "admire" women out in public.
    I think that "rude and obnoxious" covers the behavior of men who
    give themselves whiplash when a woman walks by (even if they don't
    say anything.)  It's a head movement that is pretty hard to miss
    (even if one's peripheral vision isn't that hot.)
    
    It's not that men mean to make anyone uncomfortable by their obvious
    enjoyment of the female form.  I don't think that most men do it
    out of any sort of desire to "objectify" or anything like that.
    
    I just think that "obvious appreciation" gives *some* women the
    creeps (even if the guy seems harmless and is nice about it.)
    
    Imagine being out and about on business.  You need to make a quick
    phone call to a customer, so you duck into a crowded Coffee Shop
    to use the phone.  You're completely caught up in the moment (what
    you are going to say to the customer, what was said at the meeting
    of your group earlier in the day, what you will do when you get
    to the customer's site) -- and suddenly, in the midst of your private
    thoughts about work, you catch a person's eye and see that he (in
    your case, she) is gazing deep into your eyes as if to look into
    your very soul with the burning question that lies in his heart.
    
    Maybe you're not in the *MOOD* to have your soul gazed into at that
    precise moment in time.  Maybe you don't honestly care *what* he
    thinks about how you look.  Maybe all you wanted was to go into
    the Coffee Shop and just quietly use the phone *without* being
    appraised by a member of the opposite sex.
    
    You (as a man) have the freedom to be private more often than women
    do.  Does that make it harrassment (that women get stares more often
    than men do.)  I guess not.
    
    But it's unsettling and sort of creepy sometimes to know that where
    ever you go, a lot of someones that you don't know will feel compelled
    to "check you out" and "judge" how you stack up as an Object D'Art.
    
    						      Suzanne... :-)

        .73 (since you asked, maggie): I imagine I'd get tired of
        it very quickly, but I'm not quite sure that this is relevant...
        which is why I didn't answer specifically before.  I don't,
        and wouldn't, consider such behavior as sexual harassment;
        I'd simply consider it rude and obnoxious.
        
        But that's the whistling/honking/touching/calling out/etc
        stuff, and I've already said as much.  However, I'm reasonably
        sure that the photons bouncing off and/or emitted by my body
        have been captured by several eyes and decoded by several
        brains during the time I've been alive, and it hasn't bothered
        me yet.  I've never considered those photons to be my private
        personal property.
        
        .87: Suzanne, this may be a bit sarcastic... but, well, I think
        you're taking your analogy a bit far, and I can't help it.  I
        hope you'll excuse the phrasing and consider the content...
        
        Your xenophobia is showing. Why is it that your aliens must be
        incapable of behavior we see every day in humans? There are a
        lot of humans who consider dogs and horses to be delicacies...
        yet somehow large numbers of people manage to live with these
        animals without continuously thinking about consuming them.  For
        that matter, large numbers of people have been known to eat
        other people... but I'm sure you'll pardon me if I don't spend
        my life worrying that the engineer in the next office will sneak
        up and cook me while I'm reading notes. 
        
        There are probably people around who really *would* like
        to eat you, or at least have a taste.  There are probably
        people who really do consider eating their pet dogs or horses.
        But I can't justify imagining that *everyone* feels that
        way.  Sorry... I may be a pessimist, but I just can't work
        up an honest paranoia.
        
        	/dave

    RE: .92
    
    The net is so-o-o-o-o-o slow today!!!  That is probably why you
    wrote your note without seeing that I had gotten *OFF* the subject
    of aliens and back onto humans.  :-)
    
    You keep asking us to be understanding and to reach out to understand
    your point of view.  Are you willing to do the same (or are you
    waiting for everyone else to go the extra mile while you refuse
    to budge?)  
    
    Can't you (even just a little and without sarcasm :-)  understand
    what it would be like to know that you will be "checked out thoroughly"
    everywhere you go in life (even if you are dirty and sweaty from
    yardwork and just felt like running down the street for a coke)?
    
    My analogy was an effort to try to explain something to you (without
    getting mad or cutting down your viewpoint.)  I just wanted to try
    to calmly show you a different way of looking at something.
    
    You're not paranoid???  Really?
    
    							Suzanne... :-)

    RE:  /dave
    
    P.S.  Lest you think that I am trying to pick a new fight or
    anything, honestly I'm not.  There *are* more serious issues
    on my mind than this one.
    
    I was just trying to add a touch of humor to the idea (while
    trying to make a couple of little points.)
    
    It's not that big of a deal to me (compared to other things.)
    No problem.
    
    						     Suzanne... :-)

        'tis rather slow, isn't it?
        
        What I'm hoping, Suzanne, is that someone will admit that
        it's possible to look at someone, and appreciate their
        appearance, without necessarily considering that person as
        an "object", or harassing them.  If nobody can be convinced
        of this (to me) obvious truth, then I must be unreasonable
        and admit that I'm not willing to blind myself to avoid being
        considered guilty of "harassment" every time I walk in public.
        
        I don't understand why you imagine that you are being "checked
        out thoroughly" everywhere you go.  I really doubt that that's
        true.  That *does* sound like paranoia to me.  Unless of
        course you're a celebrity... I have no doubt that presidents
        and movie stars *do* get "checked out" pretty thoroughly
        most anywhere they go.  I wouldn't call that sexual harassment,
        either.
        
        As for "trying to calmly show me a different way of looking
        at something"... I realize fully how some people look at
        things.  That isn't always (or even usually) how *I* look
        at things.  I understood what you were trying to get at with
        your analogy, and in some ways I should almost apologize
        for picking at it as I did... but I did so because the analogy
        *was* valid...
        
        I think your assumption that each and every one of these aliens
        *must* be always thinking about eating you is exactly the same
        as your assumption that each and every man (or even "most" men)
        must always be "checking you out thoroughly".  I simply don't
        see any validity in that theory.  Arguing this through your
        chosen analogy seemed just as valid as arguing it without
        the analogy.
        
		/dave                                 

    RE: /dave
    
    >  What I'm hoping, Suzanne, is that someone will admit that
    >  it's possible to look at someone and appreciate their appearance
    >  without necessarily considering that person as a "object", or
    >  harrasing them.
    
    You still didn't read my other note  (I think it was .91)  In it,
    I said:
    
    
    >  It's not that men mean to make anyone uncomfortable by their obvious
    >  enjoyment of the female form.  I don't think that most men do it
    >  out of any sort of desire to "objectify" or anything like that.
    
    So, did I make your day?  :-)
    
    I don't mean that most men check out any one woman in particular.
    It's just women in general (and if you think it isn't done by many,
    many men on a constant basis -- check out the topic in MENNOTES
    called "I'm a Girl-Watcher.")  It's not just my own little warped
    imagination that says men judge women out in public on a regular
    basis.  
    
    Lighten up, /dave.  
    
    							Suzanne... :-)

�    But he is _very_ single right now, and just about
�    everything about him seems to scream "I want to get l**d NOW!!!",
�    and to even try to carry on a conversation with him...
 
    I suppose you spit on him and it sizzled?

re: .90

I think you just saved my life.  Things were getting pretty serious
here for a while.  Guess next time I'll have to add a :-).

Martin.

    Suzanne, do you really mean that you know *for sure* that the aliens
    wouldn't eat you, given the chance?  You have a lot more trust in 
    legislation than I do!

    .98
    
    I would have leapt to your defense Martin, if the lynch party started
    to form. ;-)
    
    Tamzen

        Suzanne,
        
        To be honest, your analogy bothered me some, mostly because it
        seemed to some up a female outlook that makes me uncomfortable
        and which I don't really understand. Just as you have a hard
        time believing that the aliens could appreciate humans or as
        people or on pure aesthetic grounds, that their motives could
        innocent, many women seem to look upon all men with fear or at
        least distrust.
        
        I understand that some women do feel this way about men, and
        that their reactions to things that I do or say will be
        conditioned by this. As someone who really doesn't wish to make
        others uncomfortable, I do what I can to keep from causing this
        reaction, and try to be sensitive to when it has occurred. At
        the same time, I still don't understand it. Beyond that, I can't
        bring myself to believe that it is good for them to feel this
        way.
        
        As someone who was used to being physically harassed for a
        number of years, and by a very large fraction of my peers, I
        used to be somebody who lived in fear and distrust. In my case,
        I found that the fear and the distrust contributed to the events
        that induced the fear. It was a positive feed-back loop (a very
        negative one, too). Overcoming my fear, my distrust and my lack
        of confidence in my self (for in my case at least the fear and
        distrust were tied up with a lack of self-confidence), not only
        reduced the incidence of trouble, but also made me a happier, if
        not better person.
        
        Generalizing from my own experience is not neccessarily correct,
        but it is just about inevitable. Doing so, I can't help but feel
        that this distrust and fear of men that I have encountered in
        some women is not good for them; that it helps contribute to the
        incidence of incidents, and to their unhappiness in general.
        
        JimB. 

        By the way, the crude and loutish folk who honk at passing women
        harass not only women but to others as well. For most of the
        last 15 or more years I have had waist-length hair, usually worn
        in a pony-tail. It will not surprise you that in the early '70s
        I was often jeered at by passing cars--"Get a hair cut"! What
        may surprise you is that it never really stopped. 
        
        It may sound elitist or "classist", but it has been my own
        experience that among the male, teenage, lower-middle and
        working class, semi-urban population, the habits of jeering at
        and harassing women, the weak, the different has been moderately
        common. Such behavior can be found in other groups, but in this
        group it is most common. 
        
        Their harassment may be sexual when directed at women, or racist
        when directed at minorities, but it is my impression that it is
        predominently harassment. My feeling is that if you let such
        harassment poison your view of men or your ability to accept
        compliments as innocent just because these folk are men and
        express themselves in terms of "appreciation", you are letting
        them win, letting them dominate and mess up your life.
        
        All of this is not meant to belittle the discomfort felt at
        being the brunt of such harassment, nor to condemn or judge
        those who find the unpleasant associations with being harassed
        carry over into other parts of their lives. Everybody reacts
        to unpleasantness (and to all of life) differently. I'm merely
        expressing the conclussions I've come to regarding similar
        situations in my own life.
        
        JimB. 

    re .99:
    
    Suzanne's analogy still holds.  What goes through my mind when I am out
    alone and a group of men are hooting and whistling at me is that I'm
    *not* sure that they will stop at that.  Even though rape is illegal,
    they may not.  To put a finishing touch on things, suppose that some of
    these aliens are *so* tempted by a particularly delicious looking human
    that they do cook and eat them, and in fact, this had happened to some
    of your friends.  Sure, some of them are arrested and either killed or
    jailed by their own kind, but you cannot be sure that it won't happen
    to you when you are being 'appreciated'.
    
    Elizabeth 

    	RE: .101
    
    	JimB. -- I didn't think I would have to say this, but the
    	analogy was meant to be humorous.  It was not a point-by-
    	point serious comparison.  I don't *really* see men as alien
    	beings who would devour us all if given half a chance.
    
    	The point was supposed to be:  "How would you feel about being
    	admired in a way that was not totally comfortable for you? 
    	Would you be flattered or would you feel odd?"
    
    	I didn't say:  "Wouldn't you be so angry and fearful that you'd
    	want to rip their hearts out?"
    
    	I kept saying, "Wouldn't it give you the creeps?"  The creeps
    	are not the same as hating or being fearful.
    
    	Hey, I'm really sorry.  Men can look all they want.  I never
    	should have tried to explain why some women don't like it.
    	Some women *LOVE* it.  We're all different, so I was just trying
    	to shed some light on some feelings.
    
    	I didn't mean to upset anyone.
    
    							Suzanne...

    It seems that we all (human beings not just noters :*)) like to
    be looked at and admired but not all the time or by all people.
    Someone you know and like can get away with all sorts of things
    while those same actions or words in someone you don't know or like
    are considered harassment or intrusions.
    
    I can certainly see the guys here saying "how are we supposed to
    know who we can talk to/look at?" I don't know how to answer that.
    I just know that I'm on guard when around men I don't know and that
    my male friends and I can flirt and tease in a way that I would
    consider harassment by men I don't like. I can enjoy and share in
    sexual jokes and comments with my friends (who will tell you I can
    get quite out of hand some days) but that does not mean it's OK
    for just anybody to talk to me like that.
    
    Re : Lee (I think) I know what you mean about some mem giving you
    the feeling they'd do anything to get laid. It feels like radar
    or something searching you out. I also agree that some folks (females
    as well) can just give you the creeps such that the thought of them
    touching you is GROSS. I used to work with a guy like that and all
    the women in the department felt naked everytime he looked at them.
    
    Liesl_who_knows_who_she_likes_and_who_she_doesn't

    Sometimes I wonder as I read this if there aren't plain or over
    weight or older women who aren't thinking - "they should be 
    thankful that they still look good enough to be whistled at".
    I am over 40 and no longer look like Twiggy (and never really did
    :-) ). When I first came back to work we had been really broke
    and I had 2 dresses and two skirts and a couple of blouses and
    sweaters and a lousy hair cut. Over the years I haven't gotten
    any thinner but I do dress and wear my hair better, and I *like*
    it when the men I know tell me I look nice when I wear something
    new or change my hair style. I also like it when the women I know
    do the same thing. There is one woman who will always notice that
    I have something new on and compliment me. In exchange I will
    compliment other people I know when I notice that they look especially
    nice. I think that in general a friendly compliment or smile or
    what ever is welcome to the vast majority of people - and I think
    that the difference between an honest desire to let another person
    know that they look special and harrasment is pretty clear cut.
    
    (and Martin if I ever see you again and you whistle I'll know
    you are fibbing but I'll smile back - I thought your note was
    cute)
    
    Bonnie

    RE: last few
    
    I agree strongly that it depends on the situation and the person.
    I seldom wear dresses to work (gotta shave the legs or cope wth
    people flipping out), but one day when I did a very good friend
    saw me in passing, turned, stared, mouthed WOW!!! You look GREAT!!
    and I loved it.  He is also "hard up" (and complains about it a
    lot, too), but ... well, I _did_ look great, and it was nice that
    he noticed.  About a week later he said he had been thinking about
    harrassment (not me, it wasn't my doing, I don't proseletize [much]
    at work, someone else put it into his mind, honest), and realized
    that his reaction in that incident could easily be harrassing, had
    it offended me?
    
    Of course it didn't; he's a _friend_, we *party* together, hang
    out after work, not sexual, just friends, important one.
    
    And I'd love someday to come up with a clear-cut definition of the
    difference between compliments_I_like and "compliments"_that_give_me_
    the_creeps.  Suggestions?
    
    Lee

    Re: .107
    
    Lee, if you can come up with a clear-cut definition of what
    is harassment and what is not, YOU deserve the Nobel Peace Prize!
    I don't think it's possible - there are too many variables, most
    of them invisible to one or the other person involved.
    
    I think the best course is enlightenment for all concerned.  I'd
    like to believe that I can still feel free to compliment a woman
    on her appearance, if I do it in a respectful fashion, without
    undue fear that I'll be considered harassing.  I must say that I
    think a lot more nowadays before I do such things (unfortunately
    with the usual result that I don't say anything.)
    
    					Steve

    RE: .107 & .108
    
    Don't know if this helps, but you might ask yourself how one woman
    compliments another woman.
    
    When one of my woman friends at work comes in looking especially
    sharp, I often comment on it.  These are some things I've said to
    women recently (that I remember):
    
    	"Gee, *that's* a pretty dress -- you look great!!"
    
    	"I really love that color on you -- it's very nice!"
    
    	"You got your hair cut!  I love it!"
    
    I don't see anything wrong with saying things like to men *or* women
    (whether you are a man *or* a woman.)  That is assuming that you
    are at least an acquaintance of the person being complimented.
    
    						    Suzanne... :-)

    
       I don't know, Suzanne, if I start raving about your coif, people
    might reach unusual conclusions about me.  How about:
    
         "Yo' baby!  You lookin' mighty fine in that leather!"
    
                             (a joke... A JOKE!)
    
         I'm just not that secure.  I don't think I want to be.  I think
    most women understand my motives just because I keep my tongue rolled
    up.
    
                                  Bubba
    

    re: how a man can "compliment" a woman
    
    Why don't you compliment women the same way you do other men?
    If the appreciation of the beauties of nature isn't sexual, 
    then certainly it isn't limited to members of the other gender?
    How often are you compelled to say what a lovely tie a man
    has on, or how well his suit complements his figure?

        I know you intended the analogy to be humorous. I didn't mean to
        imply that I thought anything else. What I was trying to say was
        that the analogy was *too* good in some ways; that although I'm
        sure you don't feel that men are dangerous or whatever, that a
        number of women do.
        
        I really did see your point. The thing I was trying to
        communicate was this: that for some of us the analogy rather
        than being humorous can be rather painful, because it does
        parallel some of the reactions that men can get from some women.
        I've known women in my life who espoused a position very close
        to "men are alien beings who would devour us all if given half a
        chance." are dan 
        
        Your analogy was humorous and I enjoyed it. It did make the
        point you want it, and I heard it. BUT, it also reminded me of
        all the times I've heard "all men are alike", "all men want is
        to...", "the only difference between men is the degree", "the
        only thing that keeps men from raping is.." and all of that. I
        heard reflected in the menace of your aliens the menace that
        some women feal from men.
        
        It is painful both to be lumped with rapist and Adolf Hitler,
        and to feel that people we care about are afraid and afraid of
        us. Your analogy worked, but it also bothered me, bothered me
        because it also bespoke the fear and distrust that some women
        feel of men. I don't want women to be afraid, and I don't want
        to scare people. But sometimes they are, and sometimes I do.
        
        Please, understand that I wasn't criticizing you for trying to
        explain why some women don't like it. I was just trying to shed
        some light on some feelings--the feeling that I had that in some
        ways your analogy cut even closer to the quick (closer to my
        experience of *some* women's reactions) than perhaps even you
        intended. 
        
        If I expressed myself poorly or upset you I am truely sorry.
        That was NOT my intention. I respect and care for you deeply.
        
        JimB. 

    
         Yo' Iannuzzo!  I like that analogy, too.
    
                    Bubba
    

    re .111
    There is the one difference which is that men do find women
    in general or particular attractive in different ways than
    they do men... and vice versa (leaving out the permutations
    of non heterosexuals, becuase that is not part of my experience)
    and part of saying someone is attractive is part of what
    used to be called "the mating dance" and even if you are
    married and even if you are involved with an SO and even if
    you don't relate to the person for what ever reason - *it is
    still nice to have someone appreciate you and tell you so*
    and the more we make people feel that they are not free to tell
    another honestly and from the heart that they look good or
    what ever other nice thing we want to say to them... then
    the more we all lose out in the long run....
    
    Bonnie

    	There are really a couple of separate issues here:
    
    	   1.  Are women insulted by compliments?
    
    		     No, I don't think most women *are* insulted
    		or bothered by compliments (if they come from someone
    		that is familiar or if they come in a way that is
    		not an invasion of the privacy one expects when he or
    		she is out in public.)  By privacy, I mean the lack
    		of being accosted by strangers.
    
    	   2.  Are women bothered by being noticed by men in general
    	       (the whole "I like to look at women as works of art"
    	       routine)?
    
    		     Some women *are* bothered by the idea that *some*
    		men consider themselves "Art Connoisseurs" when it comes
    		to women (and they practice their craft religiously
    		in public.)
    
    		     Being "judged" as a piece of Art out in public
    		can be annoying to some women.  It can make you feel
    		like a slab of meat on a rack.  
    
    		     Some men think that all they are doing is flattering
    		women, but in reality they are judging women ("Is this
    		woman worthy of my appreciative stares or isn't she?")
    
    		     There is nothing inherently sexist or harrassing
    		about that sort of thing (in my book), but it can be
    		annoying to some women to be "judged" by strangers out
    		in public.  It doesn't bother all women, but it does
    		bother some.  But being judged by strangers in public
    		(or while walking around the office) is not the same
    		thing as receiving a compliment from a male friend.
    
    		     Personally, I think that smiles in public are
    		just fine, too (unless they occur on a lonely street
    		at night with noone else around and the fear element
    		comes into play.)
    
    							Suzanne... :-)

    This discussion is a classic example of one of the downside aspects
    of the liberation movement: Just over half of the human race is
    now walking around with an oversized chip on their shoulders. I
    can't think of compliment that could not be construed as sexist,
    given the level of sensitivity that predominates.
    
    We are not going to achieve world peace this way. We need to cultivate
    and attitude where someone can walk up to us and say anything,
    no matter how repulsive or hideous it might be, and be able to retain
    our cool. If you need a snappy comeback to maintain your image,
    think one up and carry it in a mental holster, and when the situation
    arises, draw and fire. But it dosen't matter - we do that only for
    our own ego gratification - it doesn't help the fool with the bad
    mouth who has accosted you.
    
    With as much genuine concern as you can muster, look sympathetically
    at the offender and suggest psychotherapy.  If enough people tell
    him, maybe he'll consider it.
    
    And if you can't deal with the stress that exposure to the public
    may cause, consider seeking help for yourself. It takes a thick
    skin to walk the streets these days, and everyone can use a little
    help in defining who they are. If you've found your center, nothing
    that anyone says casually can injure you, no matter how thoughtless
    they might be.
    

    re: .116
    
    > Just over half of the human race is now walking around with an
    > oversized chip on their shoulders.
    
    I'd be very, very curious to know what you consider to be the
    statistical source that backs up this statement.  That is a pretty
    gross generalization (considering the size of the world's population.)
   
    If it makes you happy to think that women in this file have chips
    on their shoulders *merely* because they say that certain things
    bother them, then knock yourself out.  If you *want* to think that
    some of us are having trouble dealing with the stress that exposure
    to the public may cause, then go ahead and think that, too.
    
    Luckily, your belief in those fallacies won't alter the truth.
    
    							Suzanne... :-)

    A couple of months ago, I was in an airport in another state on
    my way to catch a plane home from a business trip and I saw a
    public display that sort of sums up the feelings I have about
    this issue.
    
    I was walking behind a group of very well-dressed business men
    who were obviously traveling together.  They carried themselves
    very well (like any Digital manager or other DEC professional
    might.)
    
    Suddenly, I saw a woman coming toward us that was dressed in the
    same manner as the men (in a nice business suit, except that it
    had a skirt instead of pants.)  She looked very much like she
    could have been on the same sort of trip the men were on (as a
    peer) and she walked with a sense of purpose in her stride that
    said she was in a hurry.  When she reached the men, she took a
    sharp turn down a small hall towards a woman's restroom.
    
    When she turned, the men literally fell over themselves to watch
    her walk from behind (muttering things like "Oh, wow.")  They
    stopped dead in their tracks and 4 or 5 of us nearly ran into
    them (their stop was so sudden.)  The men proceeded to put on a
    big show for each other of being disoriented and flustered over
    the sight of this woman from behind.
    
    Were they being sexist?  Well, not on purpose.  Were they harrassing
    anyone?  Not really.  Did they look stupid and juvenile?  YOU BET!!
    
    When I saw this display, I just hoped to God that the gents didn't
    work for DEC (and if they *DID*, I hoped that no customers saw them
    and *knew* they worked for DEC.)
    
    It isn't that big of a deal, really, and we will certainly never
    stop anyone from looking at anyone else in public (men *OR* women.)
    We are all *entitled* to look at people in public, in fact.
    
    It would just be nice to have some folks show a little decorum
    when they do it.
    
    						     Suzanne... :-)

    <--(.116)
    "
        This discussion is a classic example of one of the downside aspects
    of the liberation movement: Just over half of the human race is
    now walking around with an oversized chip on their shoulders. 
    
    "
    
    Mark, knowing you I find it tough to believe you meant this the way it
    came out.  Would you care to try either justifying your assertion or
    rephrasing it, according to the state of your kidney?  
    
    						=maggie 

        .116: Aside from Suzanne's comment about your statistics,
        there's an additional fallacy here... that "the liberation
        movement" is responsible for this "chip on the shoulder".
        
        You're quite wrong.  It's the millenia which came *before*
        the liberation movement which is responsible for the "chip
        on the shoulder" which some women (some, far from all) carry
        against men.
        
        I just wish we could get over all that skewed history and
        get on with life.  Many people, unfortunately, are not willing
        to move on.
        
        	/dave

    Sigh.  It's an example of what happens when you write notes just
    after midnight.  I stand by the remark, rephrased this way:
    
    I am extrememly frustrated with the degree of caution and delicacy
    one must apply when dealing with just over half of the population
    these days. You pick the half. Everyone please stop being so sensitive,
    please?
    
    Thank you.
    

    	Well, I agree that with Mr. Maxson that being insulted takes
    a degree of cooperation on the part of the insultee.  
    
    	I know cause I do it.  That lawyer scum at my church that I've
    told you about in another note can insult me just by saying Good
    Morning.  (I know I shouldn't let him bother me and I'm working
    on it.)  On the other hand,  I've known JimB thorugh notes for almost
    4 years now and I don't think there's a thing on this earth that
    he could say to insult me.  And it's all in my attitude about how
    I receive what they say to me.  
    
    	Sure I get irritated by car honks and rude remarks but most
    of time, blissful ignorance is the best way.  An example, A woman
    that I work with has a BIG chip on her shoulder about the group
    that I work for.  She attempted to insult me one day and I *blush*
    misunderstood one of things she said, didn't take it for the insult
    she meant it to be and took away her opening to get under my skin.
    I couldn't understand why she seemed so non-plussed until I later
    talked to the person that she did sucker in witht the same remark.
    The light bulb went on and I realized what happened.  I didn't do
    it purpose, but it worked so well, that I've kept that one in my
    repetoire.  There's nothing worse in the world to someone who trying
    to insult you than to have you be pleasant and completely ignore
    the insult. :-)  And if by chance, you misunderstand the other way
    and took insult where none was intended, perhaps with a pleasant
    answer, the person who "insulted" will keep talking and you will
    realize that his/her intentions were not to insult.
    
    	An anecdote that may or may not have anything to do with this:
    Last Friday, I was at the store looking at skirts.  This obviously
    foreign man, stopped a few feet away and was really staring at me.
    I was starting to get uncomfortable, so to end things one way or
    another, I made eye contact with him.  He looked like he wanted
    to say something but wasn't sure if he should.  So figuring "what
    the hell..." I smiled and nodded.  He looked relieved.  He said
    "Could you tell me what size skirt you wear?" (huh?) I said "depending
    on the skirt a 10 or an 11/12."  He smiled and thanked me and went
    on to explain.  He's from Trinidad, over here for a soccer tournament
    and he wanted to get a surprise for his wife but the sizes are
    different here.  I was the same size and height as his wife so he
    thought that if he got one that would fit me it would fit her. 
    We had a nice conversation.  I helped him pick out a skirt and we
    went our separate ways.  I was SO pleased that I hadn't "frozen"
    him when I saw him looking at me.  (Freezing someone is giving that
    that look that says "Back off!")  He obviously was afraid that he
    would be misinterpreted and get me angry so I was really happy that
    I hadn't gotten angry.
    
    	In general, I never take offense from an admiring remark from
    someone I know.  Earlier, someone mentioned telling a woman that
    she had a nice shirt on.  I'd not take offense at that.  A nice
    complient with a smile and walking on is very non-threatening as
    far as I'm concerned.  (In fact I got quite a few compliments on
    a spring dress I bought and wore last week.  Plenty of them were
    from strangers, male and female.  They were all of this variety
    of comment.  I felt great.  It was nice to know that I had picked
    out something that looked good enough on me that strangers felt
    compelled to comment.)  I don't like honks/comments from cars simply
    because they are not on the lvel of people interacting with people.
    It's well known that the anonymity we get from being in a car gives
    us a feeling of power.  The fact that they use that poer to interact
    with me from a position of "safety" irritatesbut does not frighten
    me.  The only situation mentioned here that I would really consider
    harrasment or threatening would be someone making suggestions to
    me about actions (Wanna get laid?) or taking action without my
    permission (someone touching me).
    
    tlh
    
    
    
    

    Geesh, Lorna, I'm jealous, I wish Martin had whistled at _me_:-):-)
    
    And, JimB, you can look at my legs anytime they're on display, but
    you'll probably have to wait until the next SF Convention, 'cause
    at work they're usually hidden under my blue jeans!
    
    And speaking of SF (Science Fiction, to the uninitiated) Conventions,
    this reminds me...there are places (such as SF Cons) where it is
    obviously acceptable to gawk.  Many, many folks (men and women)
    go to these affairs dressed in OUTRAGEOUS costumes, yes some even
    more outrageous than mine :-)  I've shown up for these affairs in
    slinky mermaid dress complete with green hair, zebra leotards and
    black leather with zebra-stripey body paint and a tail, a leopard
    skin dress cut down to _there_ with a leash and collar and whiskers,
    and....
    
    And do I want you to look?  HELL YES, why else would I be wearing
    umpteen pounds of sequins and body paint???  Am I upset by the long-
    red-haired barbarian in the cape who I don't even know (well, ok
    Jim, so I _do_ know you, but it really doesn't matter who it is
    :-)) whistling at me from across the hall?  OF COURSE NOT!  But
    this is a special place, and I am inviting attention.  And the folks
    who attend these things are _very_ civilized, and NO ONE would do
    more than look or comment.  It's strictly hands-off-unless-you're-invited-
    to-touch terrain, and this kitty-cat has claws and teeth and doesn't
    hesitate to hiss and spit at anyone who behaves inappropriately.
    And if any fool persists, they are likely to be throttled and removed
    from the party by one of the Convention Committee or worse still,
    vanquished by one of the assorted aliens or barbarians in attendance...
    
    But do I appreciate the same out-and-out gawking or comments from
    random people on the streets?  NO!  Look, but don't stare, please,
    and don't honk your horn unless you know me and are trying to say
    hello!  I don't wear sequins and bodypaint to go to the seven-eleven,
    so please don't act like I do!  It's rude!
    
    At work, tell me you like my haircut, or my blouse (or my bluejeans,
    I guess :-)) or (go ahead, please, make my day!) tell me I look
    on top of the world today, but PULEEASE, don't tell me I've got
    great t**ts or a fine a**, 'cause I won't tolerate it!  (Well, ok,
    I got a couple of friends who might try that now just to get my
    goat, but they _know_ who they are and just how far they can go,
    and I'm likely to respond with "You're ugly and your mother dresses
    you funny!").
    
    Rita
    
    

    One situation that's happened to me a few times recently is when
    I've been out with my 13 yr. old daughter who's a little bit taller
    than me.  We'll be walking along together dressed in jeans (her
    outfit a bit less conservative and more in than mine), and we've
    had a car pull up with a bunch of guys shouting and honking the
    horn.  We also had a couple of guys try to start walking with us
    on the sidewalk.  It's _embarrassing_!!!  I mean, these guys look
    around 18 to 22 and she's only 13 and I'm 37!!!  Can't they even
    pick on women their own age?  It's embarrassing to have people try
    to pick you up or honk and shout when you're with your daughter!
    
    I don't mind the guys of that age who just turn to look now when
    I'm with her - and I know they're looking at her and not me!  (Although
    I might be thinking, don't you look at my baby like that!)
    
    Lorna
    

        RE: 271.123
        
        For shame! Spredding nasty rumors about me. I've never dressed
        as a caped barbarian at an SF con. Why, at most cons I've worn a
        suit. I wear my fur-lined cape and velvet and velour tunics to
        work. Let's get our stories straight.
        
        JimB.

    My profound apologies, Jim, it's hard to keep these alternate realities
    straight some times ;-)
    
    

    1. Receiving obscene in-house phone calls.
    
    2. Having obscene gesture made at you will driving on the highway.
       Discovering the only way to get rid of them is to flip them off
       while he in turn shrugs his shoulders like he was only trying.
    
    3. Being grapped in the wrong place while working.  *Some men* at
       times think they can just grap a hold of anything they want and
       not feel the least bit guilty.
    
    Jude
    

    

    
    A lot of what I'm reading here is that it might not necessarily
    be what is said/done, but how and in what environmnet. 
    
    A friend saying "nice dress" at the office vs. a carload of deliquents
    (any age) yelling it as you walk down the street  ---- one is a
    compliment, the other could be harassment.
    
    Harassment can be whatever bothers you - and it may not bother someone
    else. If a comment is made with genuine feeling, then probably very
    few would take it as harrassment. Looks done in good taste as opposed
    to a group of businessmen falling over themselves in an airport
    (why does that make me think of a 3 stooges movie?) could also be
    a compliment. But, ANYTHING taken to the extreme or to the intrusion
    of someone else's privacy/space - I think would then be harassment.
    
    It's one of those things (and I think this is also used for describing
    pornography...?) where it's hard to describe what it is, I know
    it when I see it?
    
    oh well... here's to genuine compliments and making other people
    feel good!
    
    janet b.

    I did something this morning that may be classified as harrasment
    but.....
    On my way to work, there was this incredible looking guy, jogging
    down the street in very small jogging shorts and no shirt, I honked
    the horn on my truck, gave him the thumbs up and he smiled and yelled
    "have a good day!"
    
    vivian
    

        Gee, yesterday I passed a lady jogger age about 40+ with
        absolutely fantastic legs. I gave her a sort of sly winking
        smile and a "thumbs up", and got back a pretty broad smile. 
        
        At least we're keeping the "harrasment" incidents well balanced
        between the sexes.
        
        JimB. 

    Gee, when somebody passes me jogging, they usually stop and offer
    me a ride . . . 
    
    --bonnie

    Re .132, but then you might be raped, murdered and thrown in a ditch!
     Those are the 3 things in order that I always expect to have happen
    when a woman gets in a car with a strange man :).
    
    Lorna
    

    I think it's because after three blocks, I look like I was already
    murdered and thrown in the ditch!
    
    --bonnie
    

    I had one male friend who simply couldn't understand that whistle's
    honks, comments, ect wern't compliments.  We had many late, late,
    nite conversations about this, and I finally put it down to his
    culture and accepted that I would never change him.  Well, I didn't,
    but something did.  He spent a weekend at P-Town, on the Cape. 
    (for those of you not from new england, providencetown in the summer
    has a significant gay community.)  Well, he came back, and apologised
    to me, and said he would _never_make such comments again.  His
    girlfriend was in histerics about it.  Ahmed had worn his usual
    outfit, tshirts and soccor shorts, and is admittedly _very_good
    looking in them.  Apparently he spent the whole time trying to hide
    between her & her sister.  Anyways, it changed his mind about what
    was a compliment and what wasn't.  Too bad we can't arrange such
    a course of treatment for anyone who thinks it's macho to comment
    from a car or across the street....
    
    another comment,  I was just interviewed by some goverment agent
    for EEO regulations, or some such,  wanting to know what forms of
    discrimination/ harrasment I'd seen at DEC.  Well, discrimination
    I've seen,  but harrasment, the verbal and physical that I've seen
    mentioned here has never happened to me or been seen in 5+ years.
    Have I been lucky?  How common is this at DEC?  Any comments?
    

I don't know how relevant this is, but a friend showed me this
from a course he had once taken:

	ARE YOU BEING HARASSED?

	This list of indicators contains some common experiences
	which point towards an atmosphere of stereotyping and harassment.

	Answering these questions yes or no can provide you with a
	"sense" of the quality of your work setting and whether you
	are experiencing harassment.

Do you?

1.  Avoid certain men or social situations due to concern about
    behavior on the part of males.

2.  Experience men who persist in asking for dates though you
    consistently refuse.

3.  Receive many comments about your clothing and or physical
    appearance.

4.  Find men telling you offensive sexual jokes even though
    you object.

5.  Experience eye contact difficult to make with specific men.

6.  Receive annoying phone calls from a male co-worker,
    supervisor or manager.

7.  Receive requests fro sexual favors in return for job considerations.

8.  Feel that "special attention" to certain men is required
    for you to get job recognition.

9.  Find yourself left out of important meetings.

10. Find yourself not being invited by male peers to informal
    gatherings - social settings seen as inaccessible.

11. Experience being persued or annoyed by drinking male employers
    at social functions.

12.  Find that men are ignoring your ideas and contributions.

13. Hear yourself frequently referred to as a girl, honey, babe,
    etc. by one or more men.

14.  Frequently receive requests to do the support tasks such as
    getting coffee, taking notes, or being a 'go for'.

15. Experience being patted on the head or winked at when you are
    trying to make a serious point.

16. Find a man/men trying to catch you in isolated places and
    trying to get physically close.

17. Find yourself being referred to as overly sensitive, aggressive,
    a libber or even a bitch, when you question male behavior or
    press an argument.

18. Hear of rumors or comments being circulated about your sexual
    conduct or physical appearance.

19. Find a man pressing you to hear about his unhappy marriage or
    sex live.

20. See posters or cartoons exploitive of females when you enter
    an office.

21. Receive offensive comments from men in hallways or the cafeteria.

22. Frequently find yourself being started at by a man or a group of men/


	ARE YOU A HARASSER?

	Answering these questions yes or no can give you
	an indication if you are contributing directly
	or indirectly to harassment in your work environment.

Do you?

1.  Frequently tell sexual jokes an or insert sexual comments into
    conversations.

2.  Refer to women as girls, sweeties, honeys, babes, etc.

3.  Find most of your comments to women are about how they look or dress.

4.  Find yourself staring at a woman's body (ogling).

5.  Tune out, walk away, or in some way not listen to the ideas of women.

6.  Interrupt or put down the contribution of women, either one to one
    or in groups.

7.  Request only women to get coffee, take notes, or run errands.

8.  Exclude women from meetings, projects, and or leadership roles.

9.  Avoid asking women to join informal gatherings and social functions.

10. Make jokes about women who refuse to do stereotyped tasks - (coffee,
    notes, errands) referring to them as libbers, etc.

11. Get angry at women who press a point or confront you with your behavior
     - calling them aggressive or bitches.

12. Avoid eye contact with women.

13. Press women for dates or attention when they said "no".

14. Make comments about your bad marriage or sex life in order to test
    the reaction of women.

15. Touch women indiscriminately without being sensitive to their
    comfort level.

16. Pat women on the head, wink, or make a joke while a woman is
    trying to make a serious point.

17. Become loud and aggressive with women after drinking.

18. Request sexual favors in return for job considerations (good
    evaluations, promotion, etc.)

19. Press subordinates for dates, out of work relationships.

20. View women as "fair game" in a social or office setting.

21. Display photographs, cartoons, etc. in your office which exploit
    or put down women.

22. Abruptly change your behavior when a woman enters the room.

23. Assign challenging tasks, extra work, or special trips only to men
    (assuming there are women in your organization).

24. Exclude/not invite women to social functions or informal gatherings.

25. Call meetings and not notify women or simply "forget" that they
    could have been present.

26. Ignore situations where other men are behaving in a harassing manner.

    Useful guidelines, but definitely can't be swallowed whole without
    question.
    
    The items on eye contact have me completely flummoxed, can someone
    speak for them? There are circumstances in which I might have trouble
    making eye contact with a woman colleague, but I can't accept that I
    would be guilty of harassment. I can see more of a problem going too
    far in the other direction, i.e., excessive eye contact. In fact,
    didn't a recent note elsewhere specifically suggest making "facial
    contact" instead?
    
    Chuck

	RE: .137

	I think the authors could be suggesting that if you avoid
	eye contact it could be because you are uncomfortable 
	with the other person for some reason.  Might be a symptom
	of harassment.  But, as you say, the test should be taken
	with a grain of salt.

	...Karen

    My SO, who is a male secretary told me something that I thought
    would be interesting to relate here.
    
    His new (about 3 weeks) female supervisor has taken to calling him
    "honey", "sweetie", "babe", etc.  I suggested that this could be
    taken as sexual harassment.  He laughed at the concept, says he
    doesn't mind what she's calling him, and likes her, and she obviously
    (aside from what she's calling him) likes him.
    
    What does anyone think about this?
    
    Elizabeth

    <--(.139)
    
    Does he work at DEC?  If so, he's the only male secretary I've
    even heard of since I left university!
    
    Apropos the question:  yah, it could certainly be grounds for
    a harrassment charge if he wanted to lodge it.  If *I* were in
    that woman's place you can bet I'd never risk that kind of exposure,
    joke or no joke, good relationship or not.  Oy! 
    
    (And if he ever feels it necessary to lodge the charge, I certainly
    hope she gets what a male would get in the analog situation!  Fair
    is fair.)
    
    						=maggie
    
    Oyoyoy! 

    The operative point is that he doesn't mind.
    
    He doesn't feel such terminology displays a lack of respect on the
    part of his supervisor, hence, he doesn't feel harassed.
    
    DFW

re: .139
>    His new (about 3 weeks) female supervisor has taken to calling him
>    "honey", "sweetie", "babe", etc.  

    Of course, if the sex roles were reversed, and the secretary said, "I
    don't mind him calling me 'dear'; I don't mind having to sit on his
    lap, it shows that he likes me", we'd say that she's just desperate to
    save her job, or that she's been brainwashed over the years or
    something. (Yes, I know that I'm stretching the example.)
    
    He's not worried by it because of the different roles that men and
    women play (by default) in our society.

					-- hs

    Here's a contradiction--
    
    If my supervisor or our secretary called me honey or dear, I'd be
    really offended.  
      
    But the superb short order cook in our cafeteria hands me an omelet
    and says "You having toast, hon?"  I couldn't imagine feeling offended.
    And she's not that much older than I am!
                                                   
    (I'm sure she says it to Bill Heffner, too, if she ever cooks him
    breakfast.)
    
    Why does one feel ok and not the other?  Is it related to the fact
    that the cook hasn't the faintest idea what any of us does besides
    eat, and has no power over our career?    
    
    Thinking about this one...Holly
    

    RE .143 Any woman who can cook can call me whatever she likes 8-)

    Perhaps it is because traditionally female cooks and waitresses have
    played a motherly role towards their customers in the small diners
    and the family run establishments. It is a role that is familiar
    to us and one that is comfortable.

    Rather than decide if he's got ground to charge harassment, I'd
    hope he'd let his supervisor know it offends him and he'd prefer
    she not refer to him in this way.  Then if she continued, I'd say
    he has grounds.  I'd at least like to give the Supervisor the benefit
    of doubt.
    
    	Billie