Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    sigh ....(and they wonder why women are turning away from organized
    religions)

    And I thought the Catholic church was bad...

    pardon me while I fetch a fire extinguisher to cool myself
    down...   anyone for paganism?  

    
    
    Religion aside - the notion of women as nothing more than a vessel
    for child-bearing went out *ages* ago.  Methinks the gentleman should
    join the '80's.
    

    Salt Lake City is a part of my territory . To go there regularly
    and see and feel the grip of the Church of Latter day Saints on
    the lives of their followers is really sad. This is truly a stone
    age organisation ,which has very little concern for much except
    economic power , (and economic power comes from having more followers
    to pay tithes{sp} ).
    This State has some of the worst social conditions in the country,
    a horribly overcrowded and underfunded school system--a recent attempt
    to equate taxes paid to the amount of children one placed in the
    school system ,was defeated ,with the strong backing of the church.
    The mormon elders have no intention of joining the 80's,the stone
    ages are just fine by them,and as usual ,women will be at the bottom
    of the hierarchy,with a clearly defined role...bearers of future
    tithepayers.
    I am not a person who feels one way or the next about various
    religions..I agree with the author of .4 that this is not a religious
    issue but a human one ....I feel the same way about the rigid posture
    of the Catholic church on contraception ,especially when it is preached
    to poor people who can hardly afford to support the children they
    have..as in South America.
    
    Robin.

    I have heard that there are groups for "recovering" Mormons, Catholics,
    Fundamentalists and so forth.  I imagine these groups are for people
    who found the restrictions of the religious groups with which they
    were affiliated abusive or oppressive, which is not to say that
    all people find these groups oppressive.
    
    Does anyone know if these groups really exist, and what they are
    called?
    
    

    Re .6,
    Yes ,they do ,but I don't know the names of them . I first became
    aware of "counter " groups when a co-worker (not at DEC) became
    most concerned about his older son becoming a mormom.
    Seems that the son had met a young mormon woman,and a relationship
    ensued, he converted and went to Argentina with her on a 'mission'.
    My friend ,who was a fundamentalist christian was most upset and
    joined one of these groups ;it seems that the approach ,at least
    in this case was a "deprogramming" type of approach to bring the
    youth back .
    
    ...Robin
    

    Mormon beliefs are really weird, but it isn't fair to say everything
    that they do is bad.  It certainly is bad that they discourage sex
    education in schools and have weird rules about celestial dating
    at BYU and so on.  (Then there is Mormon underwear...)  They also 
    strongly encourage good education and good music and arts.  Their state
    university has some fine researchers; their lack of prejudice in the
    case of employing Jewish researchers led to their having good research
    done at their medical school, e.g. in organ transplant work; they have
    a very fine symphony orchestra which plays at all the public schools in
    the state every year or two.  But it is a self-sustaining society, and
    so it is difficult for non-Mormons to be happy with their social lives
    in Utah.
    
    Clearly this and other Mormon elders are not very enlightened or
    understanding.  It just seems like a good idea to remember that
    Mormons have done good things, too, not just bad.  
    (Yes, I have lived in Utah, and no, I've never been a Mormon.)
    Beryl

    re -1:
    
    >...their lack of prejudice in the case of employing Jewish researchers
    >led to their having good research...
    
    "Lack of prejudice" in one small area.  The Mormons have just about
    *the worst* track record on the treatment of blacks.  At one point
    they were not allowed to be church members at all.  Now, I think
    they can be members, but cannot hold any position of power in the
    hierarchy.
    
    	-Ellen

    re .8
    In the original note I tried to emphasize that the recovery groups
    are for people who found a certain religious practice abusive or
    limiting, and that not everyone finds them this way.
    ****
    I used to moonlight as a part-time genealogist (that usually surprises
    people!) and to the Mormons great credit, they have done more for
    the preservation of primary historical records throughout the world
    than any other group.
    
    They believe that each person who practices the Mormon faith must
    research his or her ancestors and have them "sealed" to the Mormon
    faith in a ceremony at one of the Mormon temples.  To this end,
    they have sent workers all over the world microfilming primary records.
    They send one copy to their vault hollowed out of a mountain in
    Utah, and return another copy to the custodian of the records. 
    In some cases original records have been destroyed by fire or water,
    and people have been able to replace them, courtesy of the Mormons.
    
    They are currently computerizing all the genealogical information
    they have collected.  People interested in tracing their families
    can usually get a great deal of help from the Mormon libraries.
    
    When I used to travel while doing genealogical work I was often
    invited to stay overnight with Mormon families I met at libraries
    and archives, and I often did so to save money.  I quickly learned
    to keep my feminist views to myself while accepting their hospitality
    <sigh...>.  At the same time, a number of women talked to me (I
    was a genealogist, how bad could I be!!) about their lives, their
    hopes, and their frustrations with the church.  As long as I didn't
    couch ideas in terms of feminism, a number of these women were eager
    to accept some support from me in terms of doing something for
    themselves, valuing their ideas, asserting themselves, and so forth.
    For me, it was an interesting contact with a culture I would not
    ordinarily have had any first-hand experience of.
    
    

    Re .8
    I guess prejudice against Blacks isn't prejudice,
    thanks for enlightening me.

    I don't think that was what was meant, Robin.

    Just so there's no confusion, .9 was not meant to be a flame.  I
    simply thought that the statement in .8 on prejudice might be
    misleading to some folks.
    
    	-Ellen

    
    Ok ...I should not write notes in a hurry. Flames serve no purpose.
    Re .8: " Their lack of prejudice in employing Jewish researchers"
    Does not demonstrate that the mormons are at all free of prejudice
    I believe that that prejudice is mostly a matter of ignorance
    than overt racism ,but it is very much there.
    
    The first presidency of the Mormon church ,in an official 
    statement in 1969 declared:
    
    "Negroes are not yet to receive the preisthood, for reasons
     which we believe are known to God but not to man ." 
    
    This was not a popular stance within the church ,but had its roots
    in the fact that the Mormons in  trekking across Americe had settled
    for some time in Missouri which was basically an anti abolutionist
    state , the Mormon scriptures have been basically non descriminatory.
    
    In 1978 , Spencer Kimball,the then president ,published a letter
    to the church which stated:
    "...Accordingly  all worthy *male* members of the church may be
     ordained to the priesthood without regard for race or color."
    (emphasis mine)
    
    All this comes from the book "The Mormon Experience...a history
    of the Latter Day Saints" by Leonard J. Arrington & Davis Bitton.
    Published by Vintage books.
    There are large segments of the book which deal with the role of
    Mormon women and the battles they have fought ,it should be noted
    that one of the early battles was the battle to eliminate polygamy
    as an approved practice.
    BTW ,there are still 'renegade ' polygamists to be found in rural
    Utah.
    
    ...Robin

    "Some of my best friends are Jewish."

			    - Various Ignorants

re: .6,

	I'm not sure of any particular "recovery" group off-hand, but
    you might check into your local Unitarian/Universalist church and
    ask around; the UU church is always a welcome home for wayward
    souls, etc. (there's also the JUNIPR::UU notesfile for liberal
    religious discussions such as this).

	I will take this momment to say something positive here about
    Salt Lake City, Utah...damn best skiing in the world!

							-davo