Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    You can write it but I for one sure as hell won't be able to read
    it.
    

    
�    Desolee de ce debut un peu agressif, mais je ne connais pas
�    suffisamment l'anglais pour etre capable de nuancer mes propos dans
�    cette langue...
    
     Zoziau,

     I remember my schooldays and having to learn to express *my* thoughts
     in what to me was an alien tongue (English).
     
     I have every sympathy, as I am sure do others, that you feel difficulties
     with the nuances of colloquial English. Some of the native English
     speakers here seem to have the same problem :-) I certainly don't mind
     admitting that I have similar problems with colloquial French.
     
     I suppose I could suggest that you try to compose your notes in English
     and perhaps put any French phrases you can't translate in brackets?
     I only say this because I am sure most of the readers here don't read
     French even as well as I am sure you read/write english, and occasional
     phrases are easier to translate than entire notes..
     
     /. Ian .\
     
     (PS I also didn't find your debut note even "un peu agressif".)

    Si vous voulez qu'on vous comprends (excusez l'orthographie; j'aime
    mieux parlez comme je ne suis pas francaise...) il faut essayer
    en anglais.  Si on veut, il y a du monde qui peut expliquer des
    nuances...
    
    Il y a des conferences, peu actifs, ou on parle francais, mais pas
    (dans ma connaissance) un =womannotes=.  Est-ce qu'on a des feminists
    en france?  (je rigole; mes amies en france ne reconnaissaient pas
    du tout qu'il y a des graves injustices contre les femmes, et donc
    j'aivais pas grande chose "feminine" a discuter avec elles.).  Ce
    n'est pas necessaire d'etre suffragette de vouloir lire et ecrire
    dans un conference comme ce-ci, je suppose...
    
    Vous etes libre de me corriger (il y a du temps...), ou bien me
    contacter dans MAIL.
    
    Lee
    
    Eh, "there"= la`, "here"=ici, donc: "can I write _here_ in French..."
    
   [Translation follows.  My french is horrendous...]
    
    [If you want to be understood (excuse my spelling; I prefer to speak
    as I am not french...), you have to try in english.  If you want,
    there are people who could try to explain some of the nuances...]

    [There are conferences, not very active, which are held in french,
    but I don't know of a =womannotes=.  Are there feminists in France?
    (kidding; my female french friends didn't recognize that there are
    serious injustices perpetrated against women, so I didn't have a
    whole lot "feminist" to talk to them about.)  Well, you don't have
    to be a suffragette to want to read and write in a conference like
    this one, I suppose...
    
    

    Wouaou !!! 
    
    It's great to see that I received 3 answers within 10 minutes !!
    

    Ok, see you in the next note !!
    
    Zoziau

    S'il vous plait, Zoziau. 
    
    I can only read a little french, and cannot write it at all, but
    as far as I am concerned you are welcome to use whatever language
    you wish.
    
    						in Sisterhood,
    						=maggie
    

    I find that I can read the notes that the Americans write in French,
    but I can't read the ones written by Zoziau...far too complicated
    for someone who hasn't studied french since 1971!
    
    I really don't *mind*, but pleeeezzzzzzzzze, someone...help all
    of us who've forgotten, or never learned french...translations,
    s'il vous plat (sp?)
    
    merci bien!
    
    ****

    Zoziau, I would like you to contribute in whatever way feels the
    most comfortable to you, but to me, the most important thing is
    that you feel welcome to participate.
    
    I can read French ok, as long as it doesn't get too esoteric, but
    I write it rather badly.
    
    I'd rather have you participate in French (even if some of the other 
    readers can't follow), than not have you participate *because* other 
    readers can't follow.  
    
    Bonne chance--Holly
                                                         
    

    I have enough problems trying to understand women (hence the
    participation in this conference !) - now I have to try and understand
    them in French (or Suisse Romande). I welcome any contribution to
    NOTES but like many others, before I can appreciate your point -
    I must be able to understand it. Keeping it simple or if others
    could translate would be a great help for me as my french is not
    very good.
    
    be lucky,
    
    Steve
    
    ps... Blandine... as I recall, you speak english, tres bien !
    

Is this what they mean by product internationalization?

I find the challenge of another language besides English welcome and
stimulating. It's been 5 years since my french minor so I haven't the
courage (or the dictionary--my ex-fiance took it when we broke up:-( ) to
attempt to reply in French.  But I'll read your French if you'll read my
English!  

Translations are a good idea, but please append them to the
untranslated note.  There are nuances and idioms that simply won't
translate out of their original tongue.  I'll always remember my surprise
on reading a passage in French from Flaubert.  The French was "Allons!"
which loosely translated means "Let's Go!"  The translation was something
wierd like "Come Here."

-Byron

    Zoziau,
     pardon, I am only able to write In English or poor Deutsch,
    would that I could repeat my childhood to learn French from
    (mon Pere) even if It were Quebec French.  I would understand
    and it would be easier to learn.  I tried to Learn French at
    age 40 and the teacher went too fast for me all I remember
      
                            "je sui DAVID"  and the spelling
    is probably all wrong.
    
    any welcome from me and I will try to read and understand.
    
    bon soir,
    
    Dave

    Well, I will be the devils advocate...  If the notes are going to
    be written in french, and the translation NOT provided, then I for
    one will drop womannotes from my notebook....  I tried once to
    translate something written in french with a french/english dictionary,
    and was made the laughing stock of Who Are You (remember /john??
    - if you read here?...)  I personally think it is quite rude to
    write in a language that you know 90% of the people don't understand,
    unless the whole conference is written that way (isn't there a
    conference just to write in french? - If not why don't you start
    one?)
    
    I hope this doesn't continue to become a common practice here!
    
    Gale

    
       Translations have been provided for (almost?) every note written
       in French.  
    
       Thank you, translators!
    
    

    Re: notes being written in french (or any other langauge than the
    mother language of the conference)
    
    <small flame>    
    
    They should not be written in a foreigh language ... OBVIOUSLY the
    person writing in French, can read and write and speak english, 
    otherwise, she/he would not know what is happening and being written
    to respond to a topic.  If they can read and write in English, then
    they should  ... if a conference was all french, I would never even 
    DARE to go in and start writing in english; I would consider it a 
    downright rude practice.
    
    I have went though almost 2000 unseen this weekend (trying to catch
    up), and noticed nothing but frustration ALL over this conference,
    whenever a note was written in french. I am glad for Helen, as without
    her, these topics would have been almost a 98.9% waste.
 
    Gale   
    
	    

    Zoziau has already said that she can understand English but feels
    she can express herself much better in French. I understand where
    she's coming from -- I at least get the gist of her notes, but would
    be mortified to have to reply in French.  Besides, do you understand
    EVERY English note in this conference?  I certainly don't!
    
    Liz

    I am glad that this conference is 99% ethnocentrism-free.

    1 more vote in favor of whatever_language_you_choose.
    
    I tend to use two myself, depending on the circumstances.
    
    Those happen to be English, and American.  :-)/2
    
    Dana

    Gale, you are right, it can be very frustrating to come to a dead
    halt when you can't read something.
    
    If Zoziau could write comfortably in English, I think she would,
    but she is probably similar to me--can write the native language
    as well as read it, but can only read the foreign language.
    
    Lots of us had doubts about how this would work, but for the most
    part, it seems to be working well.  Helen was one of our best
    translators, and she is leaving soon, but there are others who
    translate pretty well.  I will even give it a try if I don't see
    a translation, although my skills don't come near Helen's :-).
     
    I will go buy a French dictionary to keep on my desk this week!
    
    You said you were catching up with your notes reading when I saw
    you a few weeks ago, so after you read all the way through I'd like
    to hear your impressions of how well it worked.  In general, I felt
    that translations appeared pretty fast and were satisfying to most
    people.
    
    I would hate to see either you or Zoziau go away!  

    It may be the case that Zoziau is hesitant to express her thoughts
    in English because they might not carry the nuances she wishes to
    present - but the other side of the coin is that nuances are lost
    entirely when the reader can't read the note, or the translation
    occurs several replies down-stream. 
    
    It would be better for the flow of the discussions if an individual
    that wishes to use his/her native (non-English) language struck
    a deal with a translator so the note and its translation appeared
    at the same time, and not separated by one or more replies that
    either say some variation of "Wha?" or carry on the discussion
    without benefit of the "foreign language" comments.

    If the practice caught on, and notes in German or Norwegian start
    appearing, it will basically be a mess. What has happened to date
    has been one arrangement for one correspondent. I don't think that
    generalizing this arrangement into a policy is necessarily a good
    idea. 

    I would be glad to see notes entered in Spanish, Italian, German,
    Norwegian, Hindi, or Bantu, if that was the language in which the
    participant felt best able to express herself.  True, it would be
    beneficial to see the note and its translation side by side, but having
    Zoziau's wonderful comments in her own language has deeply enriched my
    enjoyment of these notes. (I, too, read French but would not feel
    comfortable composing a statement of opinion in that language.) 
    
    It is more than time that we recognize that DEC is now an INTERNATIONAL
    company, not a little New England mill business, and that a notes
    file such as this one, intended to benefit everybody who works at
    DEC, could reach many employees who don't even speak English/American.
    
    If this were a private conversation, I would agree that comments in
    another language would be out of place. But this is a forum for the
    discussion of issues important to WOMEN, not just AMERICAN women. We
    must be prepared to make efforts to understand each other and reach out
    to each other. We have no right to exclude our sisters merely because
    they happen to speak another language than those of us who got to this
    file first. 
    
    --bonnie
	

     Re: a few back...
    
    I am NOT another noter, nor do I really wish to be compared to another
    noter that may or may not have such a good or bad reputation in
    this or any other conference.... I think the remark was highly uncalled
    for, and wish to say no more about the subject thank-you!
    
    Re: -1... by your own admission you can read any notes read written
    in french.... would you still feel the same way if you couldn't???
    
    I have finally caught up... when I came to a topic written in french,
    I had to go forward to read the translation, taking time out to
    find it, and hope that it would be there, then had to go back and
    read the topic prior to it, then continue on, before I could make
    any sense out of what was being written.... yes, my "3" on my keypad
    works, however, it shouldn't have to be exercised in that way, should
    it????
    
    G

    I'm afraid I agree with Gale and Paul. I would rather see Zoziau's
    thoughts mistranslated by Zoziau herself than her thoughts
    mistranslated anyone else, including me. My French is just good enough
    to do a super job of mistranslating on my own, and probably a much
    better job of mistranslating than she'll do. 
    
    	Jon

If my French were better that I dared plunge in without a dictionary,
or if I had more time in the evenings when I had a dictionary, I'd
attack whatever's untranslated.

But good writing demands good translation -- you just can't wing it
and hope "90%" comes through: you miss all the fun of the original.

In addition to Helen (who will be missed), there are a half-dozen
readers of this file who can (and have) translated French.  Just give
us a chance -- or send me mail offline if there's something that
hasn't been translated for a while.

I'm sure most people here have a "high-school language" behind them.
Try writing a note -- even something simple in it and see what
you're up against.

Martin (ex. translator)

    RE .23  <FLAME OFF> I apologize. I was trained to never
    kick above the waist. 
    
    This topic has been covered extensively both here and in 241.
    As was just said, DEC is international. The best thing about
    NOTES is that it gives us access to a wide range of people.
    For this we pay a price in convenience. Gladly.
    
    Do I read French ? Just enough to misinterpret. I get head-
    aches trying. It seems so close! I cry for joy when the
    translations appear. Why ? Because Zoziau is one of the most
    open, warm, honest people in this conference. And the topics
    discussed here NEED that. 

    Another possibility is to hold responses until the note gets
    translated by one of us who is willing to attempt it.  I wouldn't
    mind translating a note or two a week, and I check womannotes every
    day, but at the same time, I am not the most skillful translator here, 
    either.
    
    Personal opinion:  It is important enough to me to include people
    who speak another language that I will commit to put some effort into
    creating timely translations.  I also recognize that other people
    may not feel as I do.   There seems to be a conflict of needs.
    
    Oh, and for just about any language except French, Maggie is capable
    of creating quick, skillful, poetic translations, so that shouldn't
    be a problem!  :-)
    
    
    
    

    
    I am happy to see notes in French and would be happy to see notes
    in German, or Spanish or Italian, etc.  I do not speak or read French,
    neither do I intend to remain that way all my life.  I welcome the
    exposure so that when I do finally study all the languages I intend
    to learn before I die it will be that much easier because I will
    have seen many of the words before.
    
    alison
    

    I am certainly committed enough to this to put in the work to do
    good translations -- I don't have that skill now, but I will work
    to learn it! 
    
    Also Old or Middle English if that's anyone's native language :) :) 

    --bonnie, putting her money where her mouth is

    
    
    I only have English/American as a language but that does not stop
    me from listening to Opera, reading T.S.Eliot who uses lots of
    other language references.  I always vote in favor of an individuals
    choice.
    
    I look forward to the day I can do my own translations of notes
    written in other languages.
    
    _peggy
    		(-)
    		 |   Oh Goddess of many people
    
    

    
    Gale - Perhaps the reason the French notes are bothering you so
    much is because you were trying to read through so many notes at
    once!  Maybe once you've caught up, and keep up with the notes
    regularly, it won't bother you as much.
    
    I like the French notes, after translation though, because I don't
    speak/read ANY French (wish I did though)
    
    Thank you, translators, and Zoziau, for your contributions.
    
          Lynne
    

    Gale is not alone.  I speak French, but I know that most people
    who write in this file do not.  I can also muddle through a few
    other languages.  However, I am rusty at all of them, and do not
    know many of the colloquial expressions used.  I prefer not to have
    notes in other languages entered here unless they are *accompanied*
    by a translation.  This is not to say that I would like a rule against
    them; I do not.  However, I do think that if a person wants to enter
    a non-English note, that they should not expect anyone to translate
    or to wait for a translation unless the writer has arranged it herself.
    
    When I am in an environment where a group of people are conversing
    and someone joins in who does not know the language, then I converse
    in both languages, and we are patient with the person who cannot
    speak/sign that language.  However, if a person joins in who knows
    that language, but who is not fluent, then that person is expected
    to converse in the language, and the group is expected to be patient
    with her as she struggles to express herself so that everyone can
    understand.  I was taught that it was rude to act otherwise.
    
    Perhaps in this particular case, the writer can put her notes in
    English with the expressions that she cannot translate in brackets.
    This is done even in English novels.
    
                    Carol

    
�    Perhaps in this particular case, the writer can put her notes in
�    English with the expressions that she cannot translate in brackets.
�    This is done even in English novels.
    
     I like that suggestion.
     
     Incidentally I recently found myself sending a message to someone in Europe
     in French, which, whilst I read it reasonably well, I write it badly,
     certainly not colloquially.
     
     The following adapts what I did to include the above suggestion. (and
     is reversed to produce English output)
     
     i) write the text in French
     
     ii) use an editor and include a couple of blank lines after each sentence.
     
     iii) translate as well as possible (leaving colloquialisms and nuances
     in French in brackets), sentence by sentence, in the blank spaces.
     
     iv) Move the French text to the end, after a form feed
     
     v) delete blank spaces to reassemble the [English] text into paragraphs.
     
     ===
     
     This or something similar allows freedom of composition whilst making
     for maximal reader comprehension.
     
     /. Ian .\
     
     
     PS let us however not forget that classic of literal translation, when
     a computer program designed to translate English into Russian translated
     the colloquial English phrase "out of sight, out of mind" into the
     Russian equivalent of "invisible lunatic"...

    Re. 32
    
    I like your suggestion also....  that seems to be the best answer
    all around... that way it wouldn't matter if it was french, german,
    spanish, dutch or any of the other ones floating around....
    
    Would it be too much to ask that the english and non-english be
    included with each topic?????  Seems to be the best compromise all
    the way around.....
    
    Gale

    P.S.  Thanks (.33) for the Invisable Lunatic - it was the nicest
    smile I have had in a long time in notes....  reminded me of the
    time I translated (first and only time mind you) a love poem (how
    did I know it was a love poem) into some lady using whips and chains...
    (instead I believe she was incaptivated by her lover)....

    Well my French is of the high school variety, and I have tried
    to translate Zoziau's notes in my head since she first started
    writing them. I was pleased to find that after several notes and
    translations I actually made it all the way through the last one
    without a mistake (at least as far as Lee's translation) . and I
    enjoy her pixy irreverant personality which seems to come over better
    in the French even when I don't understand every word. I am frustrated
    when I cann't understand everything like Gail as well. Last Saturday
    I caught a bit of "valley folk" a PBS radio show that is broadcast
    out of Amherst mass for 12 -1 Sat and sun. The song that was playing
    was by a group of 8 African men ( the rhythms were similar to some
    of those on Paul Simon's album. ) At first I was frustrated that
    I could not understand the words, and then I just enjoyed the sounds
    and the rhythms. In a way for those of us who know a little French
    Ms Blandine's notes can be appreciated at least in part at the
    emotional level - we get the spirit if not the entire meaning. But
    for those who know no French at all, I appreciatthat the plain
    words can be totally frustrating.....but I do wish we Americans
    had more chances to be bilinguial.
    
    Bonnie J

    
    Womannotes is one of the most thought-provoking of the notes files
    because issues that are important to women are discussed from a lot of
    different points of view, from people strongly affected by an issue as
    well as people who have a less personal perspective. I really enjoy
    seeing Blandine "Zoziau" 's notes, and I would like to see others, too.
    Adding the perceptions of people who have been raised in a different
    culture may be enlightening for all of us!  I'm a patient person,
    I can wait for the translations if I don't understand.
    
    French I may be able to translate, however, and I'll attempt any
    un-translated entries I find.  Or mail them to me ahead of time.
    Writing French is a different story.  Despite all those five years of
    French class it takes half an hour, a French/English dictionary, a
    French slang dictionary, and a book entitled French_Grammar_Review
    suspiciously stamped "property of Rumson Public Schools, 1942" to write
    even a paragraph of look-Jane-see-spot-run French.
    
    Bienvenue, Blandine!  Nous expliquez-vous qu'est-ce que c'est un 
    "Zoziau"?
    
    (Welcome, Blandine!  Can to explain to us what a Zoziau is?)  That's
    an example of how hard it is to write well in another language -
    you come across as being abrupt and indelicate because you don't
    know the fancy words or language constructions.
    
    			We_are_all_one_world_even_if_we_talk_funny,
    						Dotsie

    aaahhh,
    zoziau responded to me in mennotes recently and i am glad i waited
    for a translation because mi know enough french to mis-interpret.
    i was ready to flame her but thank goodness i waited!!!!
    maybe she could do a rough translation herself.
    this is going to sound silly but i like looking at the written french!
    seems almost musical and is very pleasing to my eye anywaze!
    				kelly

    oh, i love it when you speak French....
    
    	Bruce :-)

RE: .22

    Jar koni marathitun lihit asel, tar mee bhashantar karun dein.

    I at first thought that if Zoziau sent a translator a mail message
    asking for a translation each time she posted a note, that might
    keep other responses from "coming between" her original note and
    the translation.  But the more I think about it, and the more I
    wonder if my mangled franglais from high school could ever amount
    to anything, the more I'd like to see a rough english version followed
    by a smooth french version.  I want to grow to understand the language
    better, perhaps even understanding more than the bits and pieces
    I can glean now.  Ditto for other languages - I am always willing
    to learn, and perhaps posting them consecutively in the same message
    will teach me something I'd like to learn, but cannot seem to find
    the time to do so.
    
    -Jody
    

    Having studied French in high school (and doing poorly), I can
    generally make out the ideas that Zoziau (? - I don't know what
    she wants to be called) expresses, even if I can't translate every
    word.  But I recognize that if she was writing in almost any other
    language (other than English, that is), I'd be lost, thus I can
    understand the resentment of other noters.
    
    I agree that this is an international network, and that not everyone
    who wants to participate is fluent enough in English to express
    their views, so we need some sort of compromise.  What I think would
    work best is if those who cannot write in English find a willing
    translator and send the text by MAIL for translation, then post
    both the original and the translation as one entry.  The disadvantage
    of this is that the author loses the spontaneity and freedom the
    rest of us have of writing whenever the mood strikes us.  The
    advantage would be that the English-only noters could comprehend
    and respond immediately to the text, and the author would be able
    to work with the translator on getting the right meaning across.
    
    If we can't have that, then we'll just have to live with the current
    scheme where people write in the language they're comfortable with,
    understanding that most of the other noters won't understand.  (Heck
    - there are some notes written in English here that I don't
    understand!)
    					Steve

	The "default" language here is English - it is by far the most
	widely spoken and understood language among the participants
	in this conference. Someone like Zoziau who is most fluent in
	another language, but not completely comfortable expressing
	herself in English, has a balance to consider - she can
	express herself better in French, but when she does her
	audience narrows considerably in the absence of a translation,
	and the delay in the arrival of a translation (if one ever
	comes), and the inherent danger of some meaning being lost in
	the translation, also get in the way of her communicating with
	the rest of us. Obviously, she has weighed the disadvantages
	of both sides and decided the best way to get her points
	across is to express herself in French. That's OK. Personally
	I get frustrated when I see one of her notes and no
	translation has shown up yet, but that's my problem (and the
	problem of the school system that gave me A's in French for
	memorizing lists of vocabulary words and grammar rules, about
	all the French I remember now is "merde"). Her notes are worth
	the wait. Of course, the sooner a translation comes along the
	better...

	If anyone wants to express themselves in a language other than
	English, that's fine. Just recognize that your audience
	narrows when you do so.
	
	Mike

    We keep talking about Zoziau in the third person, and that's making
    me uncomfortable.  How would you feel, Zoziau, and others for whom
    English is a second language, about getting your notes translated
    and posting both the original and the translated version here? 
    This seems to be the most popular "compromise" proposed so far.
    I personally enjoy reading the entries in French, but I am able
    to read French well enough to at least get the main ideas behind
    your contributions.  Please, Zoziau, keep writing, but would it
    be possible for you to post translations along with the French?
    
    looking for a solution that doesn't exclude anyone,
    
    Justine 
           

    re: .39 --
    
    Uncomfortable?  No, not in the least.  (Is that Finnish?)
    Uncomprehending, yes. I see that as a practical problem to be resolved
    if we want to communicate, not an emotional issue.  
    
    Do you know where I can get lessons in Finnish?  
        
    .43 and some others:
    
    I agree that if the person who is writing in the other language feels
    comfortable providing even a rough translation of his or her own note,
    that would probably be the easiest for everybody.
    
    Would it be practical to maintain a list of regular participants in the
    notes file who have some knowledge of more than one language and would
    be willing to help out? Then someone who wanted to post a note in a
    language other than English would have someone to contact for
    assistance. 
    
    For example, while I have trouble saying "good morning" in Italian and
    couldn't translate a whole note from Italian, I read enough to provide
    advice about translating certain phrases, suggest smoother English, and
    so on.  I'm sure many of us have a similar level of acquaintance with
    one or more languags -- not enough to do real translating but enough to
    help each other communicate more clearly.
    


    --bonnie

    RE: .44 (.39)
    
    It meant "If someone were to write in Marathi, I would be willing
    to translate it".  No it is not Finnish.  It is Marathi, an Indian
    language.
    
    My point is that this is indeed an international network but the
    default language is English.  I come from a country which has many
    differing languages and many differing scripts.  Many times even my
    Indian friends coming from various regions of India have only English
    as a common language.  As a matter of fact, even I have to use English
    when I communicate with my wife, as she has little trouble in
    understanding subtle idioms in our own mother tongue. 
    
    I feel that in a group of people one should make every effort to
    communicate in a language which will not make any of the participants
    feel as a left out person.  I believe it tends to make that person feel
    as if (s)he is intruding upon some private conversation even though
    that may not have been the intent. 

    If I am with my friends, I make every effort to speak the common
    language. If in some cases where the person I am talking to does not
    understand the common language, I will talk with him in my native
    tongue and would immediately translate it in the common language to
    avoid my other friends getting uncomfortable. 
    
    Even though my command of English language is poor, I try my best to
    express myself in English, so that most you would be able to
    comprehend.  Some times what I have said might have to be re-worded but
    so far I have been able to get my points across eventually, albeit with
    little bit of difficulty and with some help from fellow noters. 
    
- Vikas

    
    	Since this is, as was previously mentioned, an international
    	 network, people should be free to use whatever language they
    	 desire.  I can tell you that as soon as I see a note in what
    	 appears to be French, I immediately hit NEXT REPLY.  You see,
    	 I took Deutsch in high school, not French.
    
    	If a translation is provided, at some point, it is appreciated.
    	 Otherwise, the whole thing is lost on me.
    
    	So to me it all seems pretty simple.  Write in whatever language
    	 you prefer, but realize that are many(?) people who will not
    	 understand you.
    
    
    					-Rich

    I think that Rich's reply is a good one. When the issue of writing
    in French first came up Maggie okayed it. To date translations have
    followed closely enough on the orignals as to not cause any serious
    problems. If Zoziau wishes to attach a rough English translation
    to her notes, that would be nice but we can continue with the
    translators as we have done before. I really hope that we can all
    be flexible on this issue and accomodate the different styles of
    our brothers and sisters without this becoming a "leave the conference
    issue". Thankyou to all the people who have contributed to this
    discussion.
    
    Bonnie
    co moderator

        Zoziau, (May I call you Zoziau? Would you prefer another name?) 
        
        I, for one, would prefer it if you did not attach rough English
        translations of your notes to the notes when you post them. I
        read no French at all, and am completely at the mercy ofthe
        translatotrs when your notes appear. If there were rough
        translations, I fear that your notes might go untranslated more
        often. I would thereby lose the pleasure of reading your notes. 
        
        Gentle Noters,
        
        Much has been said of the idea that participants in this file
        should conduct themselves in a way so as to not leave anyone
        out. Well, telling dear Zoziau that she must write in English
        and not in the language tha she loves and uses so well or that
        she must take the extrodinary effort of passing all of her notes
        through another noter, or that failing that she must jsut go
        away leaves HER out. So long as our net contains people who
        speak different languages someone is always going to be left out
        in some way.
        
        Just because many of us speak English is no reason to exclude
        those who do not. 95%-99% of this conference is in English.
        Zoziau by what she has said does not think in English. She must
        therefore translate 95+% of the notes she encounters here.
        Surely we can collectively take on the smaller effort of
        translating her words to English. In so doing we will grow
        either in our understanding of her lanugae, in our ability to
        cooperate, in our patience, and by the wisdom and vitality of
        her words. 
        
        It is a very little thing we do collectively, and indivudually
        our jobs are even smaller. A handful translate, some revisit
        their school-day French and some wait patiently a few hours or
        days. And for this small effort we gain so many things, first
        among them the company of a delightful soul with a refreshingly
        different view on life.
        
        Having no skill at all in French, I was uneasy when I first came
        across Zoziau's notes. I will admit to feeling left out and put
        out. But having come to know the person behind the, to me,
        incomprehensible babble, I wouldn't have missed it for the
        world. It works for me. And what ain't broke shouldn't be fixed.
        
        JimB.
        
        PS: As the first paragraph is directed specifically to Zoziau,
        perhaps it would be appropriate to translate it to French, if
        one of you has the moment. Thanks. 

    Nothing like a little intellectual exercise first thing in the morning!
    
    Here is a very approximate translation of the first paragraph of
    Jim's note.  I haven't written anything in French for years, so
    I hope it does the job.

    (Voici une traduction tres approximative de la premier paragraphe
    de note de Jim. Je n'ai pas ecrit le francais pendant quelques ans;
    j'espere que cela soit convenable.)
    
    (P.s. Mon VT131 ne fait pas les accents . . . )
    
    ========= 
    Zoziau, (Permettez-moi de vous appeler Zoziau? Preferez-vous
            queleque chose d'autre?) 

    Je preferait (?) que vous n'attachez pas les traductions anglais
    approximatif de votres notes quand vous les poster. Je ne lis pas du
    tout le francais, et je suis completement a la merci des traducteurs
    quand apparaitre votre notes. S'il y a des traductions approximatif,
    j'ai peur que votre notes s'en allait sans traduction plus frequemment.
    Je perdrais de cette maniere le plaisir de lire votre notes.
    
    ===========

  re: .48
    
    I agree wholeheartedly with Jim about Zoziau's notes.  I find
    the ethnocentrism in this file quite amazing.  Zoziau is a
    contributor to another conference of which I am a member,
    and all of us there are quite happy to receive her contributions,
    practice our rusty French, and wait for a decent translation.

    It's a little discouraging to see this kind of thing from
    women especially.  Women have suffered so much from androcentrism
    and an intolerance for diversity in the male culture, that
    you'd think we'd be a lot more willing to extend ourselves
    a little to incorporate a little diversity in language
    and expression among ourselves.
    
    

Included with permission (messy translation at end):

From:	THUNDR::SHIRE::MILLIOT "Blandine MILLIOT, ext. 816-4033  21-May-1987 1021" 21-MAY-1987 10:48
To:	THUNDR::MINOW,MILLIOT     
Subj:	RE: Ca va?

Re: Your little joke about languages

Pas mal !!!


Don't forget, Martin, that the monthly closing is tomorrow : a lot of work, 
a lot of stress, and no time left for Womannotes !!

D'autre part, je passe mes examens de fin d'apprentissage dans trois 
semaines : mes soirees sont plutot occupees a travailler.

Ensuite, je n'ai encore jamais vu une conference aussi vivante que 
Womannotes : environ 100 nouvelles notes chaque jour ! Comment veux-tu que 
je suive, moi ? Je m'essouffle !!


Je te propose, vu que tu n'es pas la premiere personne qui me demande ce 
qui m'arrive, de transferer ce memo dans WOMANNOTES comme nouvelle entree, 
avec le titre : "Zoziau aux prises avec ses examens..."


Salut, a bientot,


Zoziau

--------
		<Zoziau is in the middle of her examinations>

... On the other hand, I'm taking my examinations after my apprenticeship
in three weeks: my evenings are completely occupied with work.

Finally, I've never seen as active a conference as WOMANNOTES -- over
a hundred new notes every day!  How can I ever follow it?  I'm suffocating!

May I suggest -- since you're not the first person who asked when I'm
coming back, that you put this note into WOMANNOTES as a new entry,
with the title "Zoziau is in the middle of her examinations..."

---------

Re: the little joke about languages:

"What do you call someone who speaks two languages?"

"A bi-lingual."

"What do you call someone who speaks three languages?"

"A tri-lingual."

"What do you call someone who speaks one language?"

"Un Americain."

    La blague? SUPERBE!!!!   Je t'adore, deja!
    
    [I loooove the joke.  I love you already!]
    
    Lee

    
    [En Anglais]
       
    Having arrived once the dust had settled (more-or-less) I think
    it's great that other languages are to be included.
    
    If any of you get the chance to pass by Geneva or Valbonne (where
    I am) you will soon realise that people are saying a lot of funny
    things - in 16 languages at least!
    
    Personnally I only understand two (three if you WANT to consider
    American as another language), one of which happens to be French,
    very useful in France.  I would also be happy to provide any
    translation work - as long as doesn't become a full time job - to
    help anybody who wants it.
    
    
    [In French]
    
    Arrivant quasiment apr�s le discussion (plus-ou-moins) je trouve
    super l'id�e d'inclure d'autres langues.
    
    Si, un jour vous avez la possibilit� de venir � Geneve ou � Valbonne
    (o� je travaille) vous r�aliserez assez rapidement qu'il y des gens
    qui parlent d'un dr�le de fa�on - 16 langues minimum!
    
    Personellement je ne connais que deux (trois si vous comptez Americain)
    dont une qui est fran�ais - tr�s utile en France.  Je serai ravi
    de vous aider avec des traductions - � la condition que ca ne devient
    pas un travail plein-temps - pour ceux qui le desirent.
    
    David  @VBO