Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    i feel a judgement in the word 'pickup', which i think is unwarranted.
    
    anyway, i think the situation is ambiguous. she might be there to
    be alone, or may enjoy the company of somebody else at any one of
    a number of levels. depending on a host of conditions, which i will
    lazily lump together under 'vibes', i would feel free to ask whether
    she would enjoy some company, and either 'get lost' or not, as she
    indicated. a positive response would not warrant any expectations
    beyond sharing a drink. 
    
    /bruce

    I think this should be socially acceptable, but I have never dared
    walk into a bar alone (unless I had arranged to meet a friend there
    and then I feel nervous until I spot the friend).  I've always been
    afraid of how it would be taken.  I have male friends who think
    nothing of just going into a bar because they feel like sitting
    down and having a drink and maybe even read while they drink it.
     I do this at Friendly's or Burger King, to have ice cream or soft
    drink, but I've never dared go into a bar alone.
    
    How do other women feel about this?  It should be okay, but I'm
    just afraid of how it looks to the men in the bar.
    
    Lorna
    

                                   
I used to go into bars all the time by myself. Back home I knew everyone in
the place so it wasn't like I was alone, but a lot of the time I would sit 
there and veg and have my beer. Why? I did it because it's a way to unwind
after a day's work. I did it because I wanted to have a beer, I did it
because I was a video game freak and wanted to play Zaxxon or whatever.
Men do it all the time and noone thinks anything of it, so why can't
women do it if they want to? Certainly there are still some jerks who
think a woman alone in a bar is looking to be picked up, but I came up
with a variety of ways to make them go away. Sometimes I'd even let them buy me
a few drinks if I thought they were trying to hit on me. I'll admit that 
that's a little nasty but since they were jerks (actually what I would really
call them is not printable) I figured they deserved it.

Bahama Mama

    Firstly let me say that I cannot say how this is viewed in American
    society, as I have lived here too short a time: my views on matters
    like this is basically British.
    
    I suspect how men view the matter depends on how old they are.
    
    When I was growing up in Britain I grew up in a Public House (my
    grandparents ran it). At that time it was normal to have a "public bar"
    a "snug" and a "lounge bar"- men could drink alone in the public, and of
    course if you were a couple or waiting to meet somebody you went into
    the lounge.
    
    However women drinking alone (or with other women) used the snug, and
    a woman who walked into the public bar alone would be considered to
    probably be a prostitute (in the area I grew up in she *would* have
    been a prostitute - it was a dockland area).
    
    This has changed, partly because it is illegal to have "women only"
    bars, and also because attitudes are changing. However many men of my
    parents generation would consider a woman drinking alone in a public
    bar as "no better than she ought to be". In my generation I doubt many
    would apply such a value judgement, though it would certainly matter
    where the bar was. (For an American example ask yourself what you would
    think if the woman drank alone at an elegant lounge in suburbia. And
    now ask what you would think if you saw a woman drinking alone in a
    Combat Zone bar).
    
    /. Ian .\

    can we include in this sequence a discussion of how women feel in
    this situation? is it acceptable to inquire whether a woman alone
    would like company and leave her alone if she says no,  OR  is it
    never acceptable to ask?
    
    /bruce

    I would think that the best way to determine if a woman wants
    company is to see if she is looking around at the other people.
    If she is and if she smiles or other wise catches your eye then
    ask. If she is self absorbed, or reading I would assume she doesn't
    want company.
    
    Bonnie
    
    Who has never been to a bar alone in her life ;-).

    If you are uncomfortable going into a bar to wait for friends who
    are coming, think about waiting in the parking lot (if you aren't
    in a city, of course).  Makes _me_ feel better.
    
    Back in my less paranoid days, I did not mind men asking if I wanted
    company, AS LONG AS I could say "thank you, no" without being subjected
    to invective ("stuck-up witch...").  If the man is not among a group,
    that helps, and if he is somewhat younger than my dad, that helps
    too. [I know, age-ist.  Still can't cope with men twice my age trying
    to pick me up tho...]
    
    Personally, I have NEVER looked around a bar trying to catch anyone's
    eyes, even if I wouldn't have minded some company.  After all, there's
    company and there's company...[translate: anyone I can pick up with
    my eyes is going to be hard to get rid of.  True or false, it's
    still an uncomfortable situation].
    
    Lee

    I go out to dinner by myself frequently.  I never go to the bar,
    I simply prefer to be seated in the dining area and then if I want
    a drink or a glass of wine then I am able to in a "less threatening" 
    atmosphere.  I personally do not like bars anyway.  So it is seldom
    my first choice if I am with someone and I wouldn't particularly
    want to be in a bar by myself.  Besides, when I go out by myself
    its because I want to be by myself.
    If a woman wants to go out for a few drinks by herself, well whats
    the big deal?  I think its ridiculous for her to be labeled fair
    game.  

    re .8
    
    it seems that some women do like to meet men in different situations,
    and for a variety of reasons. sometimes it's just nice to have someone
    different to talk to. do you object to being lumped in with 'them',
    are you annoyed because somebody has not read your body language,
    or do you feel that it's an assault for a man to speak to a woman
    without a formal introduction, or 'other'?
    
    /bruce

    If I were sitting alone at a bar having a drink and reading a book,
    I wouldn't mind being approached by a man who thought that I looked
    like I might be an interesting person to get to know and perhaps
    become friends with, or by a man who was very attracted to me and
    thought that I might be the next "meaningful relationship" of his
    life (afterall judging by notes I've read 1/2 the noters profess
    to believe in "love a first sight" :-)), but I would NOT want to
    be approached by a man who thought that just because I was a woman
    alone I might provide a little action for later on that evening.
     And, I may be cynical, but I'm afraid that most men who would approach
    a woman who is alone would be looking for more action than love
    or friendship.
    
    I also think that the reason so many women resent having a man approach
    them in a situation like that is that if you politely act unfriendly
    you usually have to put up with a lot of verbal abuse from the man
    - the "stuck up bitch" type stuff.
    
    I also don't like the custom of strange men sending over drinks.
     It's usually somebody you have no interest in whatsoever, and then
    what are you supposed to do?
    
    Lorna
    

    Re; .9  I don't understand what you mean by your comment, "annoyed
    because somebody has not read your body language".
    Why don't you try reading my note again before you attack something
    you obviously misread.
    In your other hostile statement you seem to think that I feel,
    "do you feel that it's an assault for a man to speak to a woman".
    Where did I ever say that?
    I don't have the slightest idea what you mean by either statement
    and how they relate to my note.
    I am simply answering the base note about how I feel about women
    in bars.  Why don't you reread what I said instead of making 
    assumptions.  If a woman goes to a bar so she can have someone to
    talk to, well thats fine AND I NEVER SAID OTHERWISE.  If a woman
    wants to go to a bar to pick up a man THEN THATS OK TOO AND I
    NEVER SAID OTHERWISE.  If I want to go somewhere to eat and
    I want to be left alone WELL WHY ARE YOU ATTACKING ME for
    doing what I want to do and respecting what other people want to
    do?                          
    

    
    
    Last evening I stopped at a local establishment to have a glass
    of wine. I wasn't waiting for anyone, but I do know alot of people
    who gather there. I was sitting at the bar, and the gentlemen next
    to me struck up a converstaion. He said he was glad Monday was over.
    We talked about Monday's for awhile. He was a business man (never
    asked what kind) and had a meeting with Digital during the day.
    We talked about Digital for awhile. Friends came in, and I excused
    myself to join them.
    
    If I see him again, I will say hello and maybe join him for a drink
    
    by the way, they have a wonderful wine selection at the Hannah Jack
    Tavern!
    
    bonnie

    er, angora::woloch (boy I hate having to respond to notes when I
    don't know a person's first name), I think Bruce was just asking
    for a deeper clarification of why you "do not like bars anyway".
    Translation would read something like: do you not like them because
    people introduce themselves to you, and you'd rather they not, or
    because people make assumptions about you you'd rather they not,
    or does your dislike of bars have absolutely nothing to do with
    this topic at all.
    
    Yes Bruce, your reply was a little oblique. :-)
    	Mez

>    er, angora::woloch (boy I hate having to respond to notes when I
>    don't know a person's first name), I think Bruce was just asking


actually, (and I am suprised not too many others think of this) all you have to
to is look up Woloch in the Employee Location Finder, ELF.
If there are more than one, then if there is a mail address node listed than
that is a way to clue in to the first name.  sometimes, people use their 
first name as a process name, so a PHONE DIR of their system  may show that
(unless they are noteing from a cluster alias, phone dir's of cluster alias
names don't work so well!)

    Or, for over 100 women members of this file, one can do a
    
         DIR 2.* /AU=somename       
    
    and read the person's intro.  In this case, Nancy Wolochowicz's
    intro.  
    
    						=maggie

    Awwwh, <blush, blush>, I haven't had this much attention in ages.
    
    To clarify my point, I think that in many bars (depending on
    the neighborhood) a woman sitting alone at the bar is perceived as
    fair game.  Its unfortunate, but it happens.  
    I have nothing against someone that wants to socialize and say hi,
    but when the individual doesn't understand the meaning of the word
    no, then I feel that the woman's privacy is being invaded.  
    
    

    re .16
    
    i agree wholeheartedly...     NO = NO = NO!!!

I think I've gone into a bar by myself, without plans to meet friends -- if I 
did, it was very long ago and it was the kind of local dive where I was a 
"regular" and knew many of the other regulars, and the bar tenders.  I like that
sort of a place, that place just around the corner, where the people in the 
neighborhood go just to be friendly -- I guess it's been awhile since I've lived
in a "neighborhood."  But, I can't imagine going into any other sort of a bar 
alone.  Part of it is the same sort of reticence I feel at eating in a 
restaurant alone, though I would do (and have done) that without much hesitation
and it's very often been an enjoyable experience.  I just don't want to be "hit 
on" by some lounge lizard.  A long-ago friend and I had a strategy for 
wordlessly deflecting pick-ups if we weren't in the mood for that kind of BS:
the one getting the unwanted attention would just reach for the other's hand
and very obviously fondle it for his benefit.  "So long..."

CQ

I think nothing of going to a bar by myself for a drink. Sometimes I go
for something to eat, sometimes I go to watch the people. Sometimes (on
business trips) I go because I have nothing better to do. I have never
had any problems with strange men (or woman for that matter) striking
up conversations with me. It doesn't happen all that often. If I feel like
talking I do, if not I say so, no problem. Every once in a great while I'll
get the feeling some guy is trying to hit on me, but no thanks usually 
works fine in those cases. I have had some bad experiences, but these are
in the minority.

I never let anyone buy me a drink because I think it sends the wrong signals.
I realize that some men (Bruce) may not see it that way, but I'd rather be
safe.

-vicki

    I don't see anything wrong with a woman wanting to grab a bite to
    eat and have a drink or two by herself at a bar/pub.  Why is it
    that if a man is sitting alone having a drink, then people think
    that he must have worked late and doesnt feel like cooking, so he
    eats at a bar, but when you put a wowan in his place, people assume
    she is a pickup.  Will someone explain that double standard to
    me ??
    
    To be quite honest, there are only one or two bars that I will go
    in alone...and I am comfortable with these establishments only becuase
    I frequent them when I am with a group of friends.  When I used
    to go in alone, I would worry and wonder what other people thought,
    until one day I decided that I really did not care what anybody
    there thought, becuase they could think whatever they wanted...I
    knew why I was there alone !!!
    
    Kim

    There is a small nagging thought that keeps coming to me every 
    time I read answers to this note. This is that it isn't a good
    idea for *anyone*, man or woman to make a habit of drinking alone
    in bars. 

    I don't think that this note is promoting drinking alone in a bar
    as a habit.  But sometimes when a woman lives alone, there is a
    need to get out and maybe all her friends are busy that night, does
    she stay in, go out shopping or maybe go to the neighborhood watering
    hole to have a drink and change of atmosphere. I know it is acceptable
    for the woman to go shopping, but is it o'k for her to go and have
    a drink by herself (not necessarily alcholic) .  I think so, if the
    woman understands that their is a possible risk involved if she's
    not careful and that she is alert of her surrondings. 
    

    re: .22
    I don't quite understand. There are plenty of safe bars (yuppie
    type). That's what bartenders and bouncers are for. Are you talking
    about "drinking alone", as in alcohol abuse? And are you asuming
    habit means dead drunk nightly? Is there something wrong with
    "habitual" drinking (a few beers/wines/mixed drinks every week)?
    
    "And I drink alone
    with nobody else.
    When I drink alone
    I prefer to be by myself."
    
    	Mez

    It's kind of humorous for me --- life has been very hectic for me
    lately, and I got to the point Friday where I really wanted to go
    to this Irish pub I've been to before with my SO, but most people
    I know don't like that kind of stuff (the one other friend who would
    was out of town, ... anyway, no one was available to go.)
    
    I went by myself.  I've never done that before, and I just said
    recently in a note that that was a policy I had, because of the
    dangers.
    
    I had a great time, it really perked up my spirits (there was live
    folk music and everyone was really into it).  I guess one of the
    nicest parts was that no one there made me feel self-conscious,
    and I was having fun doing something "out" alone (I spend most of
    my time alone, but not going out places.)
    
    Anyway, it was cool.  I knew I had to be careful (and I was), but
    that didn't keep me from enjoying myself.
    
    - Linda

    re .24
    I don't think that there is anything wrong with drinking
    a few beers/wines/mixed drinks every week. Nor do I think
    there is anything wrong with a person stopping at a bar for
    a drink by themself. I would say that there is some danger
    for anyone to get into a regular habit of drinking alone.
    
    As I said in my note this was more in the nature of small
    nagging thought, a yes, but....
    
    Bonnie

    Ah, /bruce, after reading your reply in 1, something struck me.
    
    >"...i would feel free to ask her whether she would enjoy some
    >company..."
    
    If I considered that it was a man sitting alone at that bar, I would
    *NEVER* feel it was ok to ask whether he would enjoy some company.
    OK, no big deal, this is the society we live in, and asking a man
    would be equivalent (I think) to .Ian.'s description of a woman
    in England walking into a bar alone.  
    
    HOWEVER, if half the men in the bar felt the way you do, /bruce,
    and 20% have the necessary effrontary (courage, perhaps) to ask,
    then even though I had gone to the bar for a peaceful drink ALONE,
    I would be harrassed by 7-10 men (most of whom would probably ask
    politely and most of whom would probably leave me alone after I
    gave hints that I so desired).     Even if all seven were polite
    as they asked if I would mind some company, *I* would feel harrassed.
    
    Tamar

Just because a person comes to a bar alone, does that mean they want 
to be alone?  I don't think so, or they would have a drink at home.

When I'm down, having someone take an interest in me is a great 
pick-me-up.  And it seems like a bar is a reasonably safe place to 
allow that conversation since further developments (maybe leaving 
with that person) can be dealt with in a public place.

I'm not saying that a bar is necessarily a good place to develop a 
relationship, but I do think that most people there who are alone 
would relish an emotional lift from another human being.


	~Mike

    re -.1
    
    i don't think that you can assume ANYTHING about people, whether
    they are in a bar, alone, etc... i think that some people would like
    company, others would prefer to remain alone. 
    
    from women's reactions here it seems that, in the absense of clear
    signals otherwise, it's better not to intrude on a woman's solitude.
    
    /bruce

    Mike, I agree with you that if someone goes to a bar there is a
    chance that they may not want to be alone.
    
    >"...it seems like a bar is a reasonably safe place to allow
    >conversation ..."
    
    Isn't the Fall River incident less than a year ago?   I don't
    think of bars as safe places.   For those people not from
    Massachussets, the Fall River incident I refer to involves the case
    of a woman who left her kids in the car and went into a bar to ask
    for directions.    She was raped several times by a couple of different
    men while bystanders watched.
    
    Tamar
    

    
       Off the subject, but, I don't think you have the story 
       (Fall River) correct...
    

    
    Re: .32   I don't know about that.  My first reaction was "Hang
              those scumbags!"  But it really did turn into quite
              a messy case...glad I wasn't on the jury that had to
              decide, because I still am not sure what I believe
              about that particular case.
    
              BTW, it was about 3-4 years ago now.  I read recently
              (last summer?) that the woman involved died in a car
              accident in Florida (where she had moved).  She was
              working on a book...
    

    Re: Fall River incident
    
    (Pardon me a moment while I put on my Nomex suit - one can't be
    too careful around here when disagreeing with someone...)
    
    What happened to that woman in Fall River is a genuine tragedy,
    but let us not create myths when the reality was bad enough.
    
    The woman (who did indeed recently die in an alcohol-related
    car crash) was a regular customer of the bar.  She entered that
    day to buy a pack of cigarettes for her husband, and stayed around
    for a while watching some of the men play pool.  She was known to
    most of the patrons there and she knew them.  She was NOT a stranger
    who just wandered in to ask directions.
    
    Those of you with the flamethrowers - please take note that I am
    refraining from offering any opinions here.  Besides, I don't
    go to bars, by myself or with others, so I'm not qualified to
    comment on how I would view an unaccompanied woman at a bar.
    
    					Steve

    Thankyou for adding that Steve, I had been going to say
    pretty much the same thing but got side tracked.
    

    re -1, -2:
    
    What difference does it make why she was there?  Rape is rape is
    rape...  which is why I said that the story was "close enough".
    A woman was raped.  What more do we *really* need to know?
    
   	-Ellen

    
    Any understanding of why these things come to pass is more ammunition
    the arsenal when we try to punish or prevent them.
    
    I did not think there was any question here on whether or not the
    woman had been raped.
    
    DFW

    Re: .38
    
    Just what IS your point, Ellen?  Perhaps that we should make it
    illegal for an unaccompanied woman to enter a bar?  Just how does
    the story about what happened in Fall River support your views
    on the subject under discussion?  What ARE your views, since you've
    not entered any replies on the subject?  Why do you feel it
    necessary to object to a factual correction?  Doesn't your knee
    get tired of jerking all the time?  Why am I not surprised at your
    response?
    
					Steve

	I have had occasion to go into bars on my own many times.  
Most of these experiences were when I lived in another country and had 
little or nothing to do with myself in the evenings after work in a 
strange country and where I knew no-one.  I had nothing but good 
experiences!  I met other Americans who were interested in just 
talking with someone from home and I met many foreigners who wanted 
to meet an American to "practice their english" or just talk to an 
American!  Or I just sat down and read my paper in an atmosphere that
    was a bit more congenial than my hotel room.

	When I got back to the states, although I had more to do, I 
didn't feel uncomfortable to walk into a bar, sit down, order a drink 
and read my paper or just people watch -- until.....  I didn't 
actually have terrible experiences here, just uncomfortable ones.  So, 
I rarely do it anymore - I just don't believe that most bars have the 
function of being places to relax in our culture.
                                                
    

    RE .40 Steve
    
    I am absolutely furiously angry.   The facts presented to correct
    what I stated are COMPLETELY irrelevant to the point I was making.
    (Please person who introduced the facts, I can understand wanting
    to set the record straight HOWEVER with the fat that Steve just
    added to the fire I will proceed)
    
    Whether or not the woman was friends with the people in the bar
    and whether or not she hung around for DAYS does not matter.   She
    walked into a bar and was RAPED while people (MEN in this case I
    think) stood by and WATCHED.    RAPE IS RAPE Steve and NO OTHER
    FACTS were needed.   Indeed, introducing the other facts made it
    sound a bit like 'this was why this woman got raped--she hung around
    in a bar.'   THERE IS NOTHING THAT EXCUSES RAPE.   THERE ARE NO
    MITIGATING CIRCUMSTANCES.   Rape is defined as FORCED sexual
    intercourse.    
    
    Now, as to a reason why Ellen may have pointed out that a rape is
    a rape, ie the other facts (friends/strangers common hangout/just
    stopped by once) were unimportant.   In case you are unaware Steve,
    in many rape trials, the woman's (about 90% or more of rape victims
    are female) past history is considered fair game to prove that somehow
    it wasn't a rape because 'she invited it' in some way.     Has the
    woman had sexual partners before?  Then obviously she will sleep
    with anyone...   If she was hitching a ride (hanging around in a
    bar), then she was looking for it...  
    
    Steve, for you Ellen's response may appear knee-jerk but for me
    it CERTAINLY IS *NOT*!
    
    Tamar

    Re: .42
    
    Who is making excuses?  Not me.  I agree completely that
    rape is rape, but I still don't understand what it has to do
    with the original question nor do I care for mangling of facts
    for no apparent reason.  I care even less for those who flame
    at someone who merely wants a discussion based on facts, not
    fiction.
    
    I cannot for the life of me understand how a rational person could
    think that I was somehow implying that this woman "asked to be
    raped" because she hung around a bar.  Your flame at me is utterly
    without justification, and reinforces my dismay at what this
    conference has become.
    					Steve
    
    

    Why does anyone man or woman want to go into a bar and drink alone?
    If I wanted to be alone I would stay home, if I wanted to read the
    paper I would go to the library, if I wanted a cup of coffee I would
    go to Dunkin Donuts.
    
    But if I wanted to socialize and meet people I would go to a bar.
    
    The issue is not whether you should talk to a man or woman that
    is alone in a bar.  The issue is the perception you would achieve
    if your conversation is welcomed.  
    
    Because I talk to you it doesn't mean I want to sleep with you.
    Why does a bar become a magic place that turns regular conversation
    into a proposition and acceptance of that proposition?

    Re: .45
    
    Joyce, you beat me to it.  As a simple thought experiment, pretend
    for a moment that instead of a bar, we're talking about an ice
    cream parlor.  A woman sits down at the counter, orders a dish of
    Rocky Road, and a well-dressed man comes over, sits next to her,
    and says "I see you like Rocky Road - that's my favorite too!  We
    have something in common!"
    
    Ridiculous?  Why?  Because one doesn't expect to socialize with
    strangers in an ice cream parlor, but it is traditional to do so
    in a bar!  And since it is traditional to do so, you shouldn't
    be surprised if people in bars want to socialize with you.

    If you're not interested, just say so, but I also agree with Joyce
    in that I would not go to a bar if I wanted to be alone.
    
    					Steve

	Tamar was originally objecting to a comment that bars are
	reasonably safe places by bringing up the rape case.  Incidents
	like that make women uncomfortable about entering bars alone
	whether or not they want to meet people.  I, however, tend to
	assume that the bar was in a "bad" neighborhood (am I being
	incredibly naive?).  I know that there are certain areas of
	cities and towns that I would not hang out in.  I also would
	not go into a bar that looked like a "dive".

	How do I make these subjective decisions?  I don't know, but
	windows seem to make a lot of difference.  The more the better.
	How clean the place is, and of course whether I've been there
	before.  I prefer bars that are associated with restaurants.
	(I like to eat :-). )

	Of course, I *very* seldom go to a bar alone, but that's mostly
	because I'm introverted and don't like to go anyplace alone.

I've seen  socializing  going on all over in places I don't normally talk to
other  people --- my mother talks to a lot more people she doesn't know than
I do, but then she's also more outgoing.

I've gone  to  pubs  to  see  live  folk  music,  it's sometimes nice to get
entertained rather than just playing for myself. I've gone out when I've had
a lot on my mind and I needed to not think about it. My problem is that it's
not  always easy to say that you don't socialize with someone. Sometimes I'd
be  willing to chat with one person, but not with another -- it's not always
possible to say no even to chatting without being concerned that this person
may get angry with you and bother you (in other ways) later.

Ah, but I guess this is the stuff of life that keeps it interesting :-(

- Linda

    Firstly: Rape is Rape. And this note is not an apologia of Rape.
    
    Now:
    
    The Fall River incident was introduced here as "a woman walked into
    a bar to ask for directions and got raped". (version A).
    
    This was corrected by another noter to "A woman was in a bar were she
    was a regular and she was raped by acquaintances" (version B).
    
    Version A sounds like a parable to illustrate the moral "bars are dangerous
    places for unaccompanied women".
    
    Version B sounds like a story for the Date Rape note. Since the woman
    was a regular and with acquaintances she WASN'T ALONE IN A BAR. 
    
    /. Ian .\

    and - to add to Ian's comments - to make a correction of fact
    may or may not have been necessary in any one person's eyes,
    but to have made that correction was not an appology for rape
    nor did it deserve to be flamed.
    
    If Steve had not made the correction of fact I would have. I am
    curious if I would have gotten the same response he did.
    
    Bonnie

    	RE: .50
    
    			There's nothing wrong with making a correction
    		of the facts, but looking back at Steve's note, he did
    		make a rather sarcastic comment about the notesfile
    		before he made his correction_of_facts (which *may*
    		have set the tone for the rest of the note in a few
    		peoples' eyes.)  [Yes, I realize that a lot of people
    		make jokes about wearing protective clothing in case
    		of being flamed, but in this case it didn't come
    		across to me as light-hearted as much as it seemed
    		sarcastic.  There *is* a difference between the two.]
    
    			At any rate, the sad thing is that it is *NO
    		JOKE* that courts are affected by the sexual history
    		of women (and it isn't just in rape cases, either.)
    
    			When I was a teenager, I was one of the drivers
    		in a very tragic fatal car accident (in which the
    		passenger of the other car was killed.)  It happened
    		on a freeway intersection -- the other car ran a red
    		light and hit my car broadside at 55 miles per hour.
    		Needless to say, both our cars were demolished (as
    		was a Utility pole that I hit later, and a 3rd
    		car that the other car hit after it hit me.)  It was
    		all such a mess (and so confusing for the police) that
    		both drivers were read our rights, but no one was cited
    		for anything.
    
    			As I was a minor and was driving my parents'
    		car, it all turned into a gigantic civil lawsuit for
    		close to a million dollars (from the family of the
    		victim towards my parents.)  Luckily, the only witness
    		to the accident was on my side (and I was out on the
    		road to take my Father to the airport for a business
    		trip, which sounded a lot better than being out with
    		friends or doing some teenage joy-riding.)  Our case
    		was very strong, except for one minor detail...
    
    			I was a female teenager with a sexual history.
    		Never mind that my whole history could have fit into
    		the commercials for one half-hour sitcom.  The fact that
    		I even had a "history" -- well, it literally scared
    		the pants off the Insurance Company lawyers (especially
    		since my parents were insured to the tune of the entire
    		amount of the lawsuit.)  They were so scared to face
    		court with that knowledge, that they settled out of court
    		for some fairly big bucks.  Of course, my parents'
    		policy was cancelled (and they paid bigger premiums
    		when they went elsewhere.)  
    
    			Of course, my parents and I didn't resent that
    		the parents of the accident victim got the money (the
    		woman who died was a single person in her 30's.)  But
    		it seemed awfully strange to us that my sexual history
    		was the main focus of concern in a *traffic* accident.
    		(And -- it seemed odd that it was enough of a concern
    		to override a case that was in my favor in every other
    		way.)
    
    			In a rape case, of course, it's even worse.
    		The ideal court situation (for a conviction) happens
    		when the woman is as pure as the day is long.  Somehow,
    		I get the feeling that the main concern is *not* the
    		feelings of the woman, but rather "how much damage was
    		done?"  A woman with a sexual history is *ALREADY*
    		considered to be "damaged goods" (so what difference
    		does it make if the rape added one or two new names
    		to the list of her lovers?)  It's not as bad as if the
    		woman had been *pure and innocent* (or a wife who had
    		been a virgin when she married.)

    			Unfortunately, it's part of the old "double
    		standard" that still exists.  A man with a sexual history
    		is a "stud" or a "playboy" (which are essentially seen
    		as enviable among *SOME* men.)  A woman with a sexual
    		history is a "loose woman" (to put it as nicely as I
    		know how.)
    
    			AT any rate, it's not surprising to me that
    		this particular subject is a sore spot with many women.
    		We all know that it *SHOULDN'T* matter if the woman
    		had been to the bar before or not -- but we also know
    		that in many rape cases, it *does* seem to matter.
    
    			Hopefully, that is another aspect of sexism
    		that is in the process of being corrected.
    
    							Suzanne...

    re Steve L:
    
    I am sorry you took offense where offense was not meant.
    
    But I felt offended too, you know.  I, too, felt that bringing up the
    "truth" of the situation was meant to show that somehow walking into a
    bar for cigarettes is "worse" somehow than walking in and asking for
    directions and that the rape was somehow more "deserved".

    Tamar's original message was that she did not feel safe in alone in
    a bar because rapes have been known to happen there under those
    circumstances.  How does changing the Fall River story to a more
    accurate version support or not support her position? 
    
    Also, no one *asked* what the real story was anyway.  Why not? 
    I'm thinking no one asked because it just *didn't matter*.
    
    	-Ellen