Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    BTW, if there are any men out there reading this, what is your
    feeling towards women doing this sort of thing?  Don't be nasty
    about it, just honest!
    
    Thanks!
    
    Carole
    

        Conversely, what's bad for the goose...
        
        I didn't watch the movie in question, so I don't know the
        circumstances; in general, though, I'd say a "last fling"
        before marriage is, at the least, highly inconsiderate...
        and I'd tend to use stronger words to describe it.
        
        	/dave

    Nit alert - that was Connie Selleca, not Colleen.  (Not 100% sure
    of last name spelling.)  I'll still remember her from "The Greatest
    American Hero"!
    
    My (male) opinion is that "last flings" are hazardous to a
    relationship, especially one that is just about to turn into a
    long-term commitment.  If you are so unsure of yourself that you
    need a last fling to prove something, you're headed for trouble
    in the long run.
    					Steve

    Maybe people who need last flings before lasting relationships should
    concentrate on having a lifetime of flings and forget about trying
    to have a lasting relationship.  They make last flings before
    relationships sound like the last meal before the execution.  If marriage
    is that bad, forget about it.
    
    Lorna
    

    re. the question in .0 about having been in relationships for
    convenience sake.
    
    I did this, off and on, with a old friend/lover I had known since
    high school.  I hadn't seen him for maybe seven years and we started
    dating.  I knew I was just doing it until something better came
    along, but I tried to be honest with him about it.  
    
    Because I felt guilty that he cared about me more than I did about
    him, I think I tried too hard to make it work.  Eventually, I decided
    that it wasn't worth it anymore.  Convenience, and a date on Saturday
    night, isn't everything and didn't make up for the time I was spending
    with a person I kept wishing were someone else.  
    
    I still feel rotten about the way I treated him sometimes, but at
    least he knew all along what the reality of the situation was and
    he chose to keep seeing me anyway.
    

I haven't seen the movie, and am very confused.  I understand what is meant
by a relationship of convenience and I understand what is meant by a last
fling.  How are the two related, or did I have to be there?

I agree with previous replies about last flings.  If you need one, then you're
not ready for marriage.

Jill

I only saw the tale end of the movie, but I thought the heroine was pretty dumb.
She knew that she wasn't going to be happy in her marriage but kept insisting
that she was going to marry him anyways for the security.  She didn't even
have the conflict of loving two men (which would have made it more interesting).
I thought it was your typical fairy tale where the hero goes through hell and
high water to get his woman, and the dumb woman waits until the very last 
minute (hero has given up on her) to realize she loves the man.  The topic
of a woman having a "last fling" was only thrown in to show how modern
tv movies can be.  But it still told women that flings are only ok if you
don't really love the fiancee and you wind up loving the lover.   I wonder
if the message would be the same if it was the man having a fling (is TV
saying men can have flings without love?).

..Karen

Oh, I agree with previous notes that flings are bad.

    Re: .9
    
    The base note appears to invite general comment on the concept of
    a "last fling", not just the movie.  Not having seen the movie,
    I can't comment on it, but my sentiment on last flings in real life
    stands.  Those who feel that marriage (or other similar commitment)
    is like being shackled ought not to get married.  To me, marriage
    opens up a whole new set of freedoms, and if I truly want to
    make that commitment, I'd never even consider a final "fling".
    I feel that those who consider such a thing their "right" are
    not mature enough for a serious commitment such as marriage.
    
    				Steve

    Thanks for all the comments and I apologize on the error in name
    (Colleen instead of Connie).
    
    Re:  .7
    
    You asked how convenience in relationships and the last fling fit
    in together.  Well, as you indicated, you did not see the movie.
    They sort of went hand in hand (in my opinion).  Connie was going
    to marry this guy (forgot his name) for convenience sake and had
    a last fling to get back at her fiancee for having one too.
    
    
    Re:  .8
    
    I agree with your concept, however, we all need "fairy tale" dreams
    now and then.   In reference to the part about men having flings
    without love, well sure looks like that is the picture that was
    painted by this movie.
    
    
    Re:  .9
    
    I don't really see that having a fling is beneficial to any
    relationship other than surfacing your uncertainty of not being
    able to be committed to one SO.
    
    
    Re:  .10
    
    General comments are most welcomed from everyone keeping in mind
    that we are all entitled to our own opinions, whether biased or
    not.
    
    
    
    BTW, I myself don't agree with flings.  The reason I brought up
    the subject was that it was touching to me and it reminded me so
    much of someone close to me who married out of convenience and not
    from love of the heart.  She had a chance to call it off on several
    occassions before the wedding but decided against it because the
    cake was already made and the guest would be arriving shortly! 
    Pretty sad but things like that do happen!
    
    Again, thanks for all your comments.  They are much appreciated.
    
    Carole
    

    Re: .11
    
    I can't quite accept the "getting drunk" analogy.  First, for personal
    reasons, as I consider getting drunk to be immature also.  But
    second, because a final fling is likely to be much more damaging
    to a permanent relationship than is simply getting drunk, unless
    you assume that you've previously promised your partner that
    you WON'T get drunk, in which case you still can't be trusted.
    
    As I've said in HUMAN_RELATIONS, love and trust go hand in hand.
    If one is not worthy of being trusted, one is not worthy of being
    loved.
    					Steve

re .9 (Eagle)

>    We don't wish to argue here about absolute faithfulness to an SO!

I never suggested the necessity of absolute faithfulness to an SO in my
reply.  If you are choosing a monogamous relationship, then you should not
be in need of a last fling.  If you are, then you're giving something up that
you really want, your "freedom to have flings".  You should *want* to be going
into a monogamous situation.  On the other hand, you might be starting a new
relationship and still plan to have flings (hopefully with the knowledge
and agreement of your SO).  In this case, you still don't need a last fling,
since you'll be continuing to fling.

>    Doesn't it seem possible that a "fling" before or even during a
>    deeper commitment is a human thing and might even be positive if
>    the result is finding out one's _true_ feelings as a result?

Yes, it is possible.  It happens to many humans, and is therefore a human
thing by definition.  It might even have a positive outcome.  I'd rather
not take that chance myself; there are other ways to achieve results with
less drastic negative outcomes as possibilities.

Jill

    Re .15, on the other hand, can you blame someone for asking?
    You have your own conscience and it's not up to someone who might
    be attracted to you to keep track of it, is it?
    
    Lorna
    

    I've had interesting experiences with "last fling syndrome".  When 
    I was completely footloose and fancy free (so to speak) I had a 
    very difficult time attracting men for even a one-night stand.  
    When I became engaged and publicized the fact, however, 80% of 
    my male acquaintances suddenly wanted to take me to bed before 
    I became "unavailable".  Men who had pretended for 4 years that
    I didn't exist suddenly were crawling out of the woodwork and trying
    to get into my bed.  I wasn't the least bit interested or attracted,
    and found this attention bothersome, hurtful and puzzling.  The only
    thing I could figure was that many men my age (23 at the time) wanted 
    a quick fling with someone who was 90% committed to get quick
    satisfaction without having to worry that I'd want anything more.
    I also wondered how much of their desire was based on a need to feel 
    superior to another man: my future husband ("you may have her now, 
    but _I_ was there first, heh, heh, heh").
    
    I went serenely on to marry and have never been sorry.  But I do 
    wonder:  does someone already committed suddenly look more attractive
    to everyone else?  I know that when a female friend gets engaged, her
    man takes on a "specialness" for me; after all, my friend thinks 
    highly enough of him to link herself with him legally for potentially 
    the rest of her existence!  But I am most careful never to "come 
    onto" my male friends who are about to marry.  I am too well aware 
    of the social stereotypes that condone last flings, especially for 
    men, and want to show them how much I respect the committment they're 
    making.
    
    Another experience:  when a woman I am good friends with got married,
    she experienced the same phenom I did, but in spades.  As news of
    her engagement got around, men who she hadn't seen for _years_ 
    called her up and suggested a final roll in the hay!  She came to 
    me practically in tears, because she was sure that this meant she 
    was giving off subconscious "come-hither" signals to the whole planet!
    I was happy to be able to tell her that this was not the case.
    
    Comments, anyone?
    
    Marcia

    Re: -1

    Maybe the men who hit you up were just shy.  They liked you all
    along but could never get up the nerve to approach you.  Now they
    figure this is there last chance so they might as well try.
    "It's now or never"

    On the other hand it could be that many men have herd tales of
    hot-to-trot recent engagees (although this one is new to me). I think
    many men collect information about situations in which there chance of
    rejection would be less than normal.
    
    It is interesting that it appears that their interest in a "one
    night stand" was high but they misjudged their relative chances
    before and after the engagement.
    
    					MJC O->

    Or when, instead of their chance of rejection being less than
    normal, there is a really terrific reason for the rejection
    which will keep their egos from being damaged.  And if there
    is no rejection -- hey!
    							Ann B.

    I think the attraction that men have towards women that are about
    to get married or are in a serious relationship have a lot to do
    with the way a woman's (or man's) personality changes.  When I had
    a steady boyfriend (not often ;-)) in college I noticed that more
    men were interested in me than before.  When I broke up with the
    guy, they seemed to disappear.  But I think that had to with me
    more than them.  When I had a boyfriend, I was a lot more confident
    about my looks, I was a lot more independent, I treated men as friends
    instead of targets for the hunt.  That probably seemed more attractive
    than when I was looking for a guy.  Now I'm taking my own advice
    and trying to be more confident about myself and less worried about
    finding a companion when I don't have a steady.
    
    

    re .21
    
    When I got engaged I was amazed at the number of men that all of
    a sudden were relaxed about me and wanted to be my friend. I was
    suddenly the popular ear for all sorts of confidences and problems
    to the point that my fiance (now husband of 20 years) got a tad
    jealous.  I never had a problem with men looking for an easy role
    in the hay. However, I do think that engaged women are considered
    less threatening and better potential friends to many guys.
    
    Bonnie

    I think that when someone has found someone they want to spend their
    whole life with, they are very happy.  There is something incredibly
    attractive about happiness...
    
    Lee

    Lee,
    
    I think that is the best answer I have seen for the phenominon so
    far...and the most generous...
    
    Bonnie

    
    
       The syndrome works both ways.... When you have someone special
    in your life, you seem to show that off, I guess it would be the
    happy quality that has been mentioned.  It doesn't matter if your
    a man or woman, the same situation is common with both sexes.
    
                                         Mark
    

    re .21, .25  Yes. I notice that when I'm seeing a woman, a lot
    of other women 'see' me. Whereas when I'm alone and lonely, I
    get that not-there feeling. Wish I could bottle that silly 
    little grin and make a fortune :-)

< Note 198.22 by STUBBI::B_REINKE "where the side walk ends" >

    >I never had a problem with men looking for an easy role
    >in the hay.
    
    Alas, Bonnie, I think the days of there being an easy 'role'
    in the hay are long gone for *both* sexes :-) :-) :-)

	but I for one have enjoyed the upheaval...



	I too have wondered why commitment to one seems to make one more
desireable to another...maybe it's that universal primate reaction: "some-
body else wants it, so it must be valuable." There's also a bit of the
"hurry, limited time only" psychology involved too, I think.

	I've asked a few (single) female friends why engaged or newly married
men seem to have a special attraction. The answers feel largely in two camps:

	-he's a "safe" flirt with whom things will stay in control

	-the fact that he's demonstrated the ability to commit actually
	*does* increase his appeal; paradoxically, of course, it's an
	appeal he can't exploit without becoming an unappealing cad...


	Just another of the wonderful idiosyncracies of l'amour...


					Bob