Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Have I seen this before........ You are involved in a very complex
    situation. I have been divorced for more than 18yrs and I have a
    daughter. You are intruding into the daughters safe space with her
    mother. You are a reason for her mother to give of her time, energy
    life or what have you, to someone other then the child. I'm not
    saying this is right or wrong, just that it is. Another complication
    is that the child is 13.  Puberty, as we all know, is a most difficult
    time in the growing process. It is quite normal for children to try
    role reversal under those circumstances.  
    
    My daughters favorite statement to my dates in similar situations
    was,"you are not my father". There were many times when I never
    saw the guy again.  Fortunatly I got therapy for her and me, because
    at the time I didn't understand what was happening. I found out
    that her reaction was quite normal. My daughter had a constant fear
    that I was going to replace her father, whom she was convinced still
    loved us as a family and would be back any day.  Nothing I could
    say or do at that time would change her mind. 
    
    I could go on for many pages, but I don't think you confronting
    the child will make anything easier.  Put your self in her shoes.
    The messy room is just a symptom.

    re: .2
    
    You wouldn't believe how warm and fuzzy I feel when I read a note such
    as (.2).  It's as if I've been ship wrecked on a desert island; as I
    crawl over the top of a ridge, I see an Exxon station and an interstate
    highway.  The thought that comes to mind, "a lot of people come this
    way."
    
    Now, for a ruthlessly Skinnerian question, can you make any specific
    behaviorial recommendations or actions which I might carry out.
    I am one of those hopelessly action oriented types.

>    Now, for a ruthlessly Skinnerian question, can you make any specific
>    behaviorial recommendations or actions which I might carry out.
>    I am one of those hopelessly action oriented types.


Be nice to her, cool, and laid back.  Treat her like an adult.  Don't
criticize her -- or her room: that's her space, and criticism is her
mother's job.  Don't monopolize her mother, and don't be jealous of
their time together.

Martin.

    My guess is the guy is being as cool, nice and laid back as he can.
    This situation developed over many years long before the guy in
    question ever came into the picture.  No one can be shit on
    continuously without their permission.  Mother and daughter have
    developed their relationship together.  If this relationship is
    destructive to the woman's other relationship, (that with her friend),
    then it's up to HER to handle it.  As the outside party, you can
    do nothing.  My guess is the woman has a long history of accepting
    disrespect from her daughter and if so she is going to have a long uphill
    battle trying to get it now.  This woman needs to sit down by herself,
    (with her daughter would be better but cooperation doesn't seem
    to be an aspect of this relationship), and determine the limits of 
    acceptable behavior WITH CONSEQUENCES for deviation.  Then she must
    sit her daughter down, alone, and convey those decisions CLEARLY and 
    then ENFORCE THEM.  This woman pays the bills so she calls the shots.
    Why she relinquished this power in the first place is a mystery.
    Why not ask her?  Is she letting her daughter blackmail her with
    "I won't love you" or "I'll move out"?  I'd call the little lady's
    bluff.
    
    I learned from a stable-hand once that aggressive stallions become
    more so because people try to "tame" and "befriend" them with carrots
    and goodies - something the stallion learns as rewards for their
    behavior.  

    Thirteen was the absolute nadir of my life...most teachers find
    eighth graders about the most difficult to teach, too.
                 
    Hormones are wreaking havoc at 13, some of the newfound sexual energy
    is scary as hell, but not acknowledged, and the urge to assert one's
    independence becomes a clear drive without any of the skills to
    back it up.  What a time!
    
    Keep in mind that she may be testing you, as kids do new teachers.
    Will you "buy into" the behavior she is presenting and reject her?
    Oftentime with adolescents all they need to see is that you aren't
    phased by it.            
    
    I can be philosophical, and theorize nicely, but I can also be driven
    to murderous thoughts by an adolescent.  One of my ex-SO's had 3
    daughters, the youngest of whom was 13 when we started seeing one
    another.  If I was in the house, this girl was capable of blackening
    the atmosphere for all of us without saying one word.  She appeared
    to hate me.  It was very draining, but I decided to quietly persist
    in spite of her acting out and her unpleasantness.  After three
    years of no communication with me, one day she was desperately in
    need of a ride somewhere, but no one else was available to drive
    her.  I calmly offered her a ride, and I could see her struggling
    inside herself.  She finally said yes, and totally changed her behavior
    toward me forever after.  She was also 16 by that time, and probably
    tired of acting out.  
    
    I can imagine you not wanting to wait that long!  
    
    I would also be interested in how this girl's mother feels about
    the situation.  Does she consider it a problem?  Is she open to
    getting some professional help?  My guess is that a counselor would
    see the mother and daughter separately as well as together, and
    would do some affirming of the *daughter* and her needs!  If the
    daughter felt like someone was listening to her, and supporting
    her, she might not need to act out so violently.  And at thirteen,
    it is often impossible for a mother to play the role of confidante.
    
    If the mother doesn't see this as a problem, I don't think that
    there is much you can do besides "asserting yourself" and refusing
    to be dumped on verbally.  
    
    A lot of the daughter's behavior may be coming from fear and terror,
    but even knowing that, it is still pretty dreadful to have to put
    up with.

    Boy, you have my sympathy, too - that's a rough situation for everyone!
    My guess would be that the daughter is reacting to her "abandonment"
    by her own father and sees you as a representative of the breed
    (so to speak).  Some counseling would probably help, though she
    will most likely eventually grow out of it (if her mother can tolerate
    her behavior for that long, poor woman!).
    
    Sigh.  It beats me how people get trapped in these sort of
    self-defeating situations anyhow.  If this girl succeeds in alienating
    every nice man who dates her mother, she is never going to have
    a stable home life with a male presence in it at all, which is probably
    the one thing she really craves!  I'm not saying that a two-parent
    family is a prerequisite for a stable home life, of course, but
    I think it improves the chances, ane her behavior definitely isn't
    doing anyone any good.

    My father passed away when I was 9 years old.  My mother met and married
    a man when I was 13.  Although this man could NEVER fill my father's
    shoes, as far as I was concerned, he made my mother feel like a kid
    again.  It may me feel good to see my mother happy.  Maybe if you can 
    break through enough to make this little girl realize that your not
    trying to take her father's place, but you love her mother and that
    should make her happy not resentful.  You are in a very difficult position
    children do not accept authority from mom's or dad's SO..  I sure didn't.
    I do agree that it's moms place to correct this, she will not accept it 
    from you.  Like the woman said in the one of the privious notes 
    YOUR NOT MY FATHER.
                             

    re:.6
    
    Holly,
    
    You hit the nail on the head.  Usually, when Daughter walks in the room
    it's as if a thunderhead has rolled over the horizon.  Just last
    Saturday, Mom and I were sitting peacefully on the couch watching
    a movie.  What bliss!! Then we picked up from Daughter from roller
    skating and within 30 seconds a p#ss#ng match started.
    
    I think what bothers me the most is that Daughter and I have had
    some moments of understanding when we've engaged in reasonable
    conversation and play.  Yet if I open myself up to that...wack,
    I get hit (figuratively/emotionally) square in the face.
    
    Mom is painfully aware of what is happening and concedes that she
    doen't have the skills to assert control.  That is why she initiated
    counseling.  Because of her upbringing, she just never learned that
    discipline stuff which traditionally and historically has been
    relegated to the male. (The opposite from me, I grew up in a military
    family and lived in a well defined hierarchy until I went to
    college..Ohio State for all you Buckeyes.  I was shocked to learn that
    I could address adults of authority by their first names. This first
    happened with my advisor, a woman, when I was 18._ 
              
    Also, Mom offers the explanation, without solicitaion or interrogation,
    that for a long time she played the long suffering, sacrificing
    female/mother/lover role.  Her child could do no wrong.  What can I
    say, all of that combined with puberty.... 

    I wanted to affirm what folks have noted that I cannot be Daughter's
    father.  To the best of my knowledge and introspection, I haven't
    tried to take that role.  I don't know if this helps clarify the
    situation.  I just thought I'd throw the information into the pot.
    I do feel trapped between my desire to exert some authority and
    discipline and my recognition that that is not my role AND my
    recognition that it is not my role to dictate to Mom how to raise
    Daughter.  I'm not particularly comfortable standing still.

    I know, I know...three replies in a row, but did I ever mention
    that I like y'all?  This discussion has been wonderfully refreshing
    and uplifting.
                 
    Thank you.
    
    Sincerely,
    Craig
    
    p.s. That does not mean stop.  Keep those card and letters coming.

    I am under the impression that (maybe??) your SO would feel
    relieved if YOU took a more active role in the discipline process.
    Superwoman isn't an easy role to fill and maybe she is hoping 
    that you can help.  You mentioned that there are some good times
    with the daughter.  I hope those good times make all the effort
    worthwhile.  I'm not sure if you gave a clue as to how long you
    have been involved in the relationship.  That may have some
    bearing on what you or your SO perceive your role to be.
    

    Craig,
    
    I want to acknowledge you for asking for help from the members of
    this community, and not just coming down harder on the daughter
    or the mother.  One of the frustrations I've experienced with some
    of the men I've been close to is their inability to see that there
    might be more to the problem than meets the eye, and there might
    be some resource people in and around their lives who could offer
    support and suggestions.
    
    It sounds like you want to fit into this situation, too, and are
    willing to make some concessions.  Knowing that you come from a
    military family makes me appreciate your efforts even *more*!
    
    I hope it all works out for all three of you.   Holly

    
    I have followed this note with great interest!!!   I remarried last
    year and my 11 1/2 daughter has really made life unbearable at times
    with my new husband.  We have now been married 10 months and she
    is just now beginning to address him (my husband) with any normal
    sounding voice.  It seems preteen's have sarcism down to an art
    form.....   
    
    Through many conversations with my daughter, I have found out that
    she never wanted me to remarry. (Even though she loved the idea
    before the fact)   She is afraid that I won't love/want her anymore.
    
    Her "biological" father walked out on her 10 years ago and reappeared
    2 years ago.   
    
    I believe that she feels that she has to make a choice between the
    two of them.   The very hard part for her is that my new husband
    is really much more attentive to her then her own "biological" father.
    I can't help feeling that she feels that she is or has done something
    wrong for her "biological" father to ignore her.
    
    The long and short of it is that I have insisted that she be civil
    to my new husband out of respect for me.   That she doesn't have
    to like him, but she will behave decently around him.  I also assure
    her that I will always love her and that no-one will ever replace
    her in my life.
    
    My husband and I are working very hard on letting my daughter know
    that it is not her, but her actions which are intorable.
    
    Also kids seem to have radar when a parent is feeling guilty about
    something and will build on it!!!
    
    Goodluck to both you and your SO.   Send the kid to her room until
    she can be civil....   
    
    The mother will have to be the driving force on insisting on politness
    but she might turn the tables on the kid.....   She might ask the
    kid how would she like if her mother went up and kicked/was rude
    to one of her friends.....probally won't like it much.  
    
    Susan
    

    I'd like to give everyone an update to the situation.  Based on the
    input I've received, inside and outside of the NOTES community, I've
    have come to learn that adolescent teenage girls are a difficult lot to
    cope with no matter how you cut it or who you are.  Second, that each
    of the three relationships me<->mom, mom<->daughter, daughter<->me need
    not confuse or disrupt the other relationships.  Third, I can stand
    to learn much which may prove beneficial when my 4 year old enters
    adolescense.  Fourth, I need not tolerate behaviour which I wouldn't
    tolerate from other people in general.  Fifth, daughter is not all
    bad (no drug problem, picking up grades, participating in
    extracurricular activities, etc.).
                                            
    Mom and I discussed the whole situation.  For her part, she does not
    want and won't let daughter interfere with our relationship.  At the
    same time, she was very candid about her lack of skill when it comes to
    discipline since she never had a healthy, positive, loving model of
    such in her family.  Mom said that she never wanted to repeat her
    experience, yet working without a model is difficult at best.  Also,
    mom realizes that she looked to daughter for support.  Recognizing
    these two issues is what prompted mom the seek a counselor (for both of
    them).  For my part the upshot of this discussion is that I had
    established some sort of unnecessary linkage the relationships.
    
    Sooooooooooooooo....
    
    I bought daughter a Valentine card and enclosed a letter which ran as
    follows.  I told her that I extended my hand to her in friendship. I
    told her that I didn't have all the answers but that I did know that:
    1. I wasn't her father and wasn't trying to be.  2. I wasn't trying to
    steal her mother and that it was possible for her mother to love two
    people.  3. We are all human and that she can hurt me. 4. Our separate
    relationships are indeed discrete.  5. We are different people (ie.
    adult vs. adolescent, male vs. female, work vs. school, etc.) with
    different roles and responsibilities which means that I cannot be her
    any more that she can be me which further  means the need for hightened
    sensitivity.  I closed by saying that we can make room for each other
    and that she could "do unto others as she would have them do unto her."
     Alternatively, she does not have to accept my offer of mutual
    acceptance.  One way or another I asked her in some way to let me
    know.
                   
    That's about it.  She hasn't kicked me in the shins.
    
    Craig
                                                                          

    What a *wonderful* story! Hope this opens the doors to  a lot
    of learning and growing for  all three of you!

    I think the most positive aspects of what you did are that
    you acknowledged her feelings, acknowledged the "real" issues in
    a way that didn't make her defensive or put her on the spot, and
    let her know that you didn't find her behavior very acceptable,
    but that you weren't giving up on HER.  The underlying message to
    her is that she is worthwhile, and has a right to choose whether
    or not to have a relationship with you.
    
    Nice work!
    
    

    I know this is an old issue, but just to offer some insights as
    someone who USED TO BE that daughter who's mother was dating.
    
    I had no fear that someone was going to take over my father's role,
    I didn't think my mother was going to marry any of them.  I mean
    she was just dating!  And as far as replacing my father, if anyone
    did come along I hoped they would do a better job than he did.
    I was nice to all her boyfriends, was polite, got them drinks, the
    perfect daughter.  But for all my niceness, her dates were a nervous
    wreck in front of me!  I couldn't understand why, but I thought
    it was kind of funny.
    
    The whole time mom was divorced she worked 11 hour days and went
    to night school.  It was my job to play 'mommy' to my sister.  I
    cooked, cleaned, baby sat, everything.  Most people would say that
    I was the perfect child, but I would say I was the perfect adult.
    I certainly wasn't doing many childlike things.
    
    Then mom met Mr Close as you come to Right and married him.  I liked
    him alot, I liked his kids, I liked the way he treated mom.  The
    only thing I didn't like was that I no longer had to play the role
    of surrogate mom.  Now that there were 2 parents to work and raise
    the kids, our standard of living went up, and I was demoted to being
    'just a kid'.  It sounds petty, but I was the other parent before
    he came along and he stole MY ROLE!!!
    
    After a while though I realized that being a kid was a lot of fun
    and was more grateful than resentful of my step father.
    
    I know this is getting long but:
    
    My sister is the opposite.  She hates my step father (and our step
    mothers, both past and present) and I'm afraid to say, he hates
    her.  She is seeing counseling now, and there is much improvement.
    But if by this time you are married to this woman and your step
    daughter is as angry as before, DROP EVERYTHING AND SEEK COUNSELING.
    I'm not talking about the family counseling place where everyone
    sits in the same room and stares at each other while the counselor
    asks "Does anyone have anything to discuss?"  I mean a private session
    for the daughter and one for you (sure you're fine now, but my step
    father was fine then too, plus the daughter won't feel like she
    is being punished).  It's better when you work out the problems 
    alone, and talk afterwards at your liesure.  And it's better that
    you work out the problems now, because 9 years of hatred is difficult
    for then to erase.
    
    Sorry for being so long winded...
    
    

    <== not long winded!
    
    I too was ticked off when my step (-mom in my case) usurped my role.
    What's worst, she was a lot better at it than me.  Gawd...
    
    Lee

    
    first...
    	this is all great stuff!!!!
    lights years (in wisdom) ahead of so many people (other noting
    kingdoms!)
    	coming in here (after soapbox or human_creations) is a breath
    of fresh air!
    	
    	when i first left my first real s.o. i started dating
    anything even remotely feminine.
    	and hated it.
    	besides having nothing in common with most of them (then as
    now) they almost all wanted to meet my kids and "play" mother.
    i quickly learned that this was not what i wanted.
    	to have my kids "think" of any new person as "mother" and
    then to have them lose this person after the nearly always inevitable
    breakup would just be another traumatic experience for them that
    i wanted to avoid.
    	since then i demand of all relationships that they have to
    establish their own relationship (or non-relationship) with my kids
    and i'll do the same with theirs (if any).
    	they can become good friends
    	or acquaintances
    	or ignore each other
    	i don't tolerate anger and hostility between them but i don't
    demand that they "learn to love each other".
    	my kids are my kids
    	their kids are their kids
    	
    	of course, if i can't stand their kids (little bastards)...i
    always just take a long hike. I won't put up with abuse and i'm
    not in the market for responsibilities to other peoples children.
    	hell, i'm not even in the market for the responsibilities for
    my own children!!!!!
    	
    	in my current relationship it's worked pretty well.
    	her daughter and i are quite friendly and always have a
    nice conversation and a good time when we get together (about once
    a month)
    	my s.o. has a little trouble with my kids but that's because
    we all live together and their is some jealousy. buyt we recognize
    it, talk about it, and work to avoid the pitfalls. For the most
    part they either just ignore each other or they talk quite civilly
    and amicably as "aquaintances"
    	i accept this.
    	and if this s.o. and i split....my kids won't grieve over
    the loss of yet another parent....
    	and, if they become friends on their own....they can keep
    in touch on their own!!!!!