Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    One point to note is that one of the reasons I usually pay for my
    half of dinner/whatever is to *avoid* giving anybody (including
    me) the opportunity to feel that I owe a man anything.  I certainly
    would love to go on a date and not have to pay any $$ but while
    money is dear to me, my body and self-esteem are more dear.
    
    I really don't know how "American women" manifest their freedom;
    I went to a school which didn't have many women at the time, and
    my female friends are an odd mix.
    
    I and many of my friends are free to be "quirky."  I often dress
    very androgenously and watch the reaction of the men who meet me
    for the first time.  The men in the lab get a kick out of watching
    the reactions of "new" men -- "is she a dyke or what?!"  is the
    usual reaction.  But at least if I'm being stared at, it's for the
    way I choose to dress (a CHOICE) rather than for my admittedly female
    body (something I like, but didn't choose.
    
    I am free to be intelligent with someone who has chosen to condescend
    at me.  They can think anything they want about me as a woman, but
    they have a hard time fighting what I say.  Eventually they are
    forced to treat me as a person because I don't fit "feminine" roles
    and am clearly not a man.
                             
    But to have freedom in the street, I am happy to have short hair
    and a bulky jacket -- with long hair I was harassed most everywhere
    I went, and nowadays men on the street think I am a somewhat
    effeminate man and don't proposition me anymore. 
    
    Sad, isn't it, that a woman has to look like a man to be free to
    walk in the street?  It does work though...
    
    Lee
    

    Re .0  Although this my personal experience (I have no intention
    	   of generalising):  The women who have expected me to pay
    	   have tended to want nothing more from me than money.
    	   Those who offer to pay half I have tended to think:
    	   Ah! That means she is here to be with me and not to benefit
    	   from my cash.  It may not be statistically sufficient and
    	   there may be particular conditions that apply to me,
    	   but for me I am yet to find an exception.  The woman with
    	   whom I had the most important relationship was someone
    	   who had to be strongly persuaded to let me pay,  because
    	   I had the money and she didn't when I wanted to do something
    	   lavish.

    	re .2
    
	   This sounds pre-judgemental,  or am I prejudging?
    	   The crucial questions are:  Suppose a man takes you somewhere
    	   expensive and pays the bill and you offer half.  He says:
    	   It's O.K,  next time you treat me if you want.
    
    	   - Do you still insist on paying half and if so what would you
    	     expect the man's reaction to be?

	Simon.

    re .3
    
    	If a treat is offered in an overt way, "no thanks, I've got
    it", I accept that treat (almost always).  I am broke, and anyone
    who knows me knows that fact.  I always offer to help pay, unless
    the person has said out loud that it is their treat (at which point
    I thank them).
    
    My preferred method is to alternate treating which is what I do
    with friends and lovers.  This way we each are able to choose the 
    expense we feel we can afford.  Seems generally fairer especially
    between two people of very different incomes/debts.
    
    The problems I have encountered is with rich people; either they
    treat me all the time and I feel bad, or they (one person in
    particular) forget that I am not rich, too.  One ex-lover called
    me up, asked me out to a restaurant, picked the restaurant, then
    had me pay for it.  If I ask YOU out, _then_ you can expect me to
    foot the bill.  _I_ didn't really want to see him in the first place!
    
    Lee
    

    re: .0
    
    Martin, generalizations tend to be inaccurate. I have found
    (since 1977) that women 'expect' what is their cultural norm to
    expect. The way I find out what their 'norm' is; is to ask them
    or otherwise give them the opportunity to tell me.
    
    In the last 5 years, I've been 'treated' to dinner several times,
    and have done 'dutch treat' about 60% of the time; depending on
    the circumstances.
    
    Yes, some people I date(d) DO expect me to pay their way; unless
    it a really extravagant expense (over $50.00) or something THEY
    particularly want SO BAD that they'll pay my way, too !
    
    (50.00 EXTRAVagANT ? For dinner, yes, for me !) 

    Re:et al When she days NO she means "well, er , .. ah well ..".
    
    She means no, i do not want <whatever>. Perhaps she means something
    else. It don't matter what she means. If she says "N O " teh it
    is "NO", with no other assumptions to be made.
    
    FREEDOM for AMERICAN Women ?
    
    I think part of this manifestation is the ability to say "Yes",
    "No", "maybe later" , and her companion will respect that wish.
    
    Part of this freedom has been the acceptance of the responsibility
    to get better educated; to take on more political aspirations; and
    to "get involved" in those processes that makes this country
    (and company) tick.
    
    One of my favorite bumpers stickers reads:
    "Women who aspire to be as good as men have no ambition". Does it
    bother me ? Of course, sometimes, when I let my 'traditional' beliefs
    (past learned) get in the way of "what is right" (current relearning).
    
    Bob
    
    

    It probably says something about our society that in all our discussion
    of FREEDOM the matter of money comes up, ie: money = freedom and
    having your way paid = owing the one who pays. My freedom in that
    context means I make enough money to not HAVE to be married to stay
    solvent. I even read a newpaper article that suggested the increase
    in divorce was caused by women being able to afford not to have
    a husband/provider so now they leave when things go bad. 
    
    Maybe the above reason is what scares some men and women about the
    ERA. For men it means they lose control over women if the women
    make enough to survive and for women it means they must be responsible
    for their own lives. I can still remember a fight my parents had
    abut my Mom working. My dad claimed that she shamed him in fornt
    of others since her working meant he couldn't provide for the family
    without help. Liesl