Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    I think I know what you are getting at, Martin.  It can be
    disconcerting to know something intensely personal about someone
    whom you know very little else about in the way of the dull, daily
    details and statistics that make up the bulk of who we are.
    
    My opinion is that if someone wants to make a personal revelation
    in a public forum like NOTES, it should be done with an understanding
    that it *may* make others uncomfortable or have an impact on their
    careers.  It is their risk to take, and it's not my place to deny
    it to them.
    
    Gloria

    
    Re -1, but, I feel that the people who might be prejudiced against
    someone because of something they wrote in this file are the ones
    in the wrong.  Why should we have to live by rules that are morally
    wrong?
    
    I feel if someone is prejudiced against me because I reveal something
    personal in this file, then they are the jerk, not me.
    
    Personally, I like knowing things like this about people.  It helps
    me to understand them.  What are we supposed to discuss?  (It was
    just getting interesting.)
    
    Lorna
    

    When I started writing .3, -1 meant .0.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    
    If you find what I say makes you uncomfortable then you own the
    problem not me.  There have been many things written in this
    conference that makes me uncomfortable and I have had to look at
    what bother me about the topic.  This notes conference is for us
    to share our views/concerns on woman's issues one of the major issues
    that have had to be address by woman is the need to have valid points
    of view.  Just when we start exploring alternative points of view
    you suggest that we re-evaluate our effort.
    
    I feel that this time you have to work out your feelings - no one
    is making you read these notes.
    
    		_peggy
    

Recall that there was a members only Gay Notes file started
(unsure if it was for both sexes, or which if just one).

But this might be a safer way to open the closet door just a little
bit within the DEC (noting) environment.

	~Mike

    re: Finding out something about someone you hardly know.
    
    I agree that it's the finder's problem, not the findee's. Recently,
    I found out an acquaintance was gay. Previously, all people who
    I knew were gay were either already relatively close friends, or
    were open/out. This person was neither (my finding out was sort
    of accidental). I felt uncomfortable because I had no model to fall
    back on. I was not intimate enough with this person to easily discuss
    important emotions. They were not out enough for me to not worry
    about slipping up. But, darn it, I KNEW it was my problem, and I
    just had to find another model. And I did (am). Heck, if that person
    could live with me finding out, what was I getting hung up about????
    Well, you get the point...
    	Mez

	Martin has a valid point.  Before I reveal personal items about
	myself I do think about how others will react to it, escpecially
	those I work with.  If something tragic had happened to me, I
	wouldn't want others to make excuses for me if my work was bad.
	It might hinder the mentoring I would get without that knowledge.
	You're right it really is that other person's problem, but it
	becomes yours indirectly.

	I also hadn't thought about future changes in thoughts on what's ok.
	I'm sure that if I had espoused socialism just before the McCarthy
	era, I might have regretted it.  Unless I felt so strong about it
	that I'd say it anyways regardless of the consequenses.  So maybe
	some people will say less about their personal lives becuase of
	this reasoning, but at least they are aware of it when they do
	speak out.

	...Karen

Martin makes a valid point that notes is a more durable medium than
conversation, and that what may be "safe" to say now may not be "safe" to
say in x years.  There were a bunch of folks who were "innocent Communists"
in the 20s-30s, and whose lives were mangled during the red scare of the
late 40's-early 50s even though many of them no longer espoused that
particular political view.

However, I've never understood the idea that we suddenly become less human
when we walk through the door of work.  Where did we get this idea that
rubric Business magically negates a whole set of significant variables
(Human preference, frailty, orientation etc.).  

I don't want to work for or with folks who reduce me to a production
unit. 

Long winded explications follows form feed 
 

To explain a bit.  I value decisions in two parts, the decision and the
result.  The decision is objective, the result is subjective.  The best
decisions are the ones that achieve an actual result closest to the desired
result.  The best results are the ones that conform closely to my
subjective/moral system. 

It is possible to make a "good" decision in the pursuit of a heinous
result.  Through out history people have been victimized by people making
"good" decisions.  The gas chambers at Auschwitz were technological
wonders, good means for producing the desired NAZI result.  However, history 
cannot find strong enough words to repudiate that result. 

I want to work for and with people who share significant chunks of my
subjective/moral system.  

I also want to work for and with good decision makers, the folks who have
considered all the available information, can communicate the perceived
impact of that info on the result, and are committed enough to good
decisions to listen to alternative perspectives.  

Both require that I make myself somewhat vulnerable by revealing who I am
and what's important to me.  Otherwise I am asking people to make decisions
that affect me without giving them information I have which will
significantly affect the results of there decisions.  If I was working in an
environment where that the above two conditions were in question to the
point where I could reveal that information safely, I'd probably try 
and change jobs.  

It is a decision in itself as to what are significant variables.  To me
sexual orientation in and of itself does not impact the ability to get the
job done.  Hire a gay/lesbian?  Sure.    Hire a flaming simpering gay?
Probably not.  Hire a flaming strutting straight?  probably not.  A gay
friend of mine (really, it's not me.  I'm straight.  Honest.  I am telling
the truth. . . :-)   ) said he didn't come out because he would then be
reduced to his sexual preference, ignoring his intelligence, musical skill,
whatever. 

Hmmm.  so what am I saying?  I hope I work in an environment where the
entries made so far in this notes files contribute to effective business
atmosphere, now and in the future.  I believe this notesfile as it stands,
contributes to moving that environment even closer an ideal environment. 
Anonymous contributions can be part of that (probably a first step in someone's
life), signed contributions are part of that (solidifying existing positive
pieces of the environment).

-Byron

    Personally, if I am having emotional troubles after going through
    an abortion or rape, then I would find it easier to listen to someone
    who admits to having been through this themselves, rather than 
    someone who speaks "academically".
    
                        Carol

    Part of being human is the ability we have to share experiences
    and lifestyles.  I find it a lot easier to understand people when
    I am privilege to their life as a whole.
    
    I do not know much of the Lesbian community.  I would like to know
    more (not in the voyeuristic sense).
    
    I don't know how we draw the line about what is private (a real
    issue with me at the moment).  I am interested to know why people
    are different then I am.  If I had a rich friend I would like to
    know how it felt to be rich but I wouldn't be interested in examining
    their budget.  
    
    Sisters, it is good to know it doesn't feel any different to love
    a woman.  And thanks for not telling me how you express that love.
    
    

    
    Re .6
    
    Why did you need to find a new model once you found out the one
    you had was gay?
    
    Re: others,
    
    I don't think it was ever suggested that people use this forum to
    "come out", there was a comment that some people found that gay
    issues were being avoided.   I think what was stated was that 
    some people in this conference see gay issues as also being related
    to this conference, since they are also women.  It is nice to know
    that some people are not afraid of "comming out" in such a public
    place,  and that they feel comfortable enough to trust the readers
    of this conference.  I don't think however that anyone suggested
    that all gay noters publically announce it.
    
    There are probably some very good topics that gay women could discuss
    that might be both women's and gay's issues, I think all they wanted
    was to know that they could address these issues in this conference
    and not be ignored.  This means the people who are not gay (me
    included) should add their comments to such topics and not be afraid
    that someone is going to suspect them of being gay.   I have some
    very good friends who are gay and we discuss such topics and find
    we have alot in commen.
    
    Paul
    

    I'm a reader and a writer of this conference but 9 out of 10 times,
    right after I write an entry, I hit F10 (Exit) and stop myself from
    entering.  I WILL NOT add anything in this conference of a personal
    nature (especially about things that no one knows about but me)
    because I'm on my way up in this company and you never know who
    is going to remember you "way back when, note ###.##" regarding
    this that or the other thing".  Just last week, one of my telephone
    conversations was overheard at work and someone couldn't wait to
    report this (word for word) to the department manager.  I got chewed
    out and this affected my working relationship with the "tattletale".
    So, if this happened by only listening to my conversation, look
    what could happen if things I said were in writing in Notes.  All
    you have to do is Print Screen and you got someone by the b___s,
    if you wanted to.  That's a chance I can't afford to take right
    now. 
    
    As it stands, if I have something to say, I want to have my facts
    straight before I contribute and anything personal, well, I will
    have to think very hard if I want 100's (maybe 1000's) of readers
    viewing my dirt.
    
    Here's one personal thing *I'm not ashamed of*: If I have some concerns
    regarding women, men, sex, abortion, rape, incest, money, hunger
    in the world or taxes,  I see my counselor.  She has helped so far and
    sometimes, I can hardly wait for Mondays to get here.
    
    :-) Cathy
                         

     Re .13, I haven't read any "dirt" in this conference.
    
    Good luck on your way up.
    
    Lorna
    

    re. 14  Didn't necessarily state that this conference had the dirt
    but I read something in another conference that went around our
    department like wild fire.  When I went upstairs to get something
    from a vending machine, people up there were talking about it too.
    
    Just goes to show you, things *do* get around and they are not always
    nice.  Any you never know who may be listening or *reading*.
    
    CT

    re: .12
    If that's a serious question (I can never tell with notes...)
    
    I had no model for how to deal with a person
    1) I didn't know well
    2) I didn't think I was getting to know better
    3) I knew something intimate and personal about
    4) They didn't want the intimate/personal thing getting around
    
    1, 2, and 4 SHOULD have precluded 3. But, as has been pointed out,
    Notes is just one way that people may find personal things out about
    other people. It's a strange responsibility, to have a deep, dark
    secret (OK, slightly tongue in cheek) about someone you hardly know.
    At least for me.
    
>        Why did you need to find a new model once you found out the one
>    you had was gay?

    And the model wasn't gay (though I have known some gay models :-)).
	Mez

    "Don't write anything in notes which you would not want to see
    attached to your resume."

That quote predates Sexcetera by a fair number of years.  I ought to
know, as I'm its author.

For your amusement, here's my current set of "etiquette guidelines"
from the NO_SMOKING notesfile, which I moderate.  I am not suggesting
that these -- as such -- are relevant to this notesfile which seems
not to have quite as much random flaming.

1. We are all collegues.  Our purpose at Dec is not to anger or annoy
   our co-workers, but to create high quality products for our customers.

2. "Anything you say may be used against you" -- i.e., assume that
   anything you write here has been attached to your resume.  You
   should not expect the moderator to delete especially foolish
   articles.

3. As Dr. Freud was rumored to say, "Sometimes, Anna, a cigar is
   just a cigar."

4.  Contributions should be relevant, sound, in good taste, objective,
    coherent, concise, nonrepetitious.  Diversity is welcome.

5.  The participants are kindly asked to treat each other with respect.

6.  The moderator does not see his role as preventing people from making
    fools of themselves.  When you write an article, think of how it
    will look to someone stumbling into this notes file six months from
    now.  Or how you will feel when asked to justify it in a job interview.

Martin.

    
    re. 18
    
    Sorry, I misread your note.  My question didn't make sense, since
    I got the wrong meaning from your note.
    
    Paul

Writing as a regular reader and occasional contributer, and
speaking as a male, this notesfile is my favorite because of the
degree of real problems being spoken about...and with such
honesty.  I can't count all the entries I've read that have made
my eyes get moist or force me to confront how I've contributed to
the issues women are dealing with. 

For me, a true source of personal power is to speak from one's 
needs.  A forum like womennotes is really a diamond in the rough 
becuase it *does* expose the pain and concern women continue to 
face.  So many replies to notes have been humbling (especially 
Mother/Daughter and First Experiences of Sexism, amoung others).

Each contributer certainly has to make a choice about the degree 
of her or his self-exposure, but the real strength of this notes 
file in particular is in the amount of processing that results 
from the base note, no matter what the topic is!  It's vibrant 
and alive, and represents really genuine struggles of people I'd 
like to work next to any day!

I find it empowering to know someone has stuggled through friends
deserting her during a divorce, or that she's lesbian, or,
well...whatever.  It means I can share *my* struggles and know
the person can connect with the pain of growth! 

Re: .9 <Steven_D> I think discussing things "academically" is the
kind of approach that just continues to keep a lid on things and
produces an artificial kind of change.  And I also disagree with
your attitude that contibuting to this notes file should be for
women only.  If you feel that way, why do you continue to
contribute?  The fact is, women *need* to know how men feel!  
They can create a separatist forum (or party) if that's what they 
want, but consistently the message has been, "Men are welcome to 
contribute."  You're not listening to the messages.

Re: .13  I think anyone who overhears a conversation and reports 
it to management for any reason except perhaps arson or homicide 
is promoting an environment of distrust, resentment and lack of 
respect.  And your manager should know better than to permit such 
behavior to grow.

You may have more power than you think.  Good people are hard to 
find.

/chuck

    re:  21
    
    Chuck, hip, hip hooray for you.  I agree totally.  Thanks.

    This is an excellent discussion of an important issue.  I understand
    your concern, Martin, and am glad you raised it. Conferences like
    Womannotes, which do discuss personal and interpersonal as well
    as business-related topics, should consider the implications of
    personal information expressed in a business environment.  However,
    I disagree strongly with you on several points.
    
    * I'm also not gay-bashing: if you think so, substitute "lesbian"
    * with "had an abortion," "was raped," "was molested as a child,"
    * or "had an incestuous relationship," and see how comfortable you
    * would be discussing that. (Odds are that about 1/2 of the women
    * reading this note fit into one of the above categories.)
    
    I agree to a certain extent that a person's sexual orientation is
    personal information, but I take issue with your analogies here.
    Abortion, rape, incest are all negative, often tragic experiences
    and cannot be equated with homosexuality. Being gay is a natural,
    normal fact of life for about 10% of the population. And although
    not everyone is comfortable with his or her experience being a
    homosexual in our society, many, many people are. Being the victim
    of a rape or an incestuous relationship is tragic; being homosexual
    is not. 
    
    You speculate that 50% of the women reading this note fit into one
    of the above categories. I question the figure as being high, but
    even if it isn't, isn't that a justification in itself for having
    a forum for discussing issues of immediate relevance to a large
    percentage of the work force? We don't leave our personal lives
    at the door when we come to work, although we try not to let them
    affect our performance. I for one appreciate the opportunity notes
    like this gives me to share experiences with fellow employees and
    see it an enhancing my work environment.
    
    One last point I'd like to respond to:
    
    * If you reveal something intensely private about yourself, your
    * colleages may have to struggle with themselves to treat you
    * dispassionately.
    
    First, I don't see the knowledge of a person's sexual orientation
    as something intensely personal.  We make assumptions about people's
    sexual orientation all the time when we hear that they are married,
    divorced, have children, etc. (granted, an assumption isn't always
    correct). So objectively, knowing a colleage is homosexuality shouldn't
    be any different than knowing a colleague is heterosexual and no
    more revealing about the personal life of that colleague. The problem
    lies with people's negative and prejudicial attitudes toward
    homosexuality. I view this prejudice (like prejudice against any
    group of people) as something we all must learn to overcome. And
    we won't begin to overcome it unless we confront it, examine it,
    and learn to understand it.  If a colleage has trouble behaving
    objectively toward a person because of his or her sexual orientation,
    that colleage has a problem, not the person.  
    
    
    

Oops, sorry.  I hadn't intended to give the impression that I equate
homosexuality with "abortion, rape, molestation" as negative, tragic
experiences; but rather as intensely personal experiences.  It is this
knowledge about the personal aspects of your life that I feel is inappropriate
in a work context.

In another place in this file (the Cheryl Tiegs note), people are expressing
discomfort with overt manifestations of rampant hetrosexuality, boardering
on "testosterone poisoning".  I find it a bit strange to read suggestions
that feeling uncomfortable around lesbians is a problem for the uncomfortable
individual to overcome, but that feeling uncomfortable around pin-up photos
is a problem for the person putting the photos up to overcome.  Or, are
there something fundamentally different that I'm not understanding?

Martin

    
    
    		It's apples and oranges.  Putting up (what many
    	consider to be) symbols of oppression is not the same as
    	trying *NOT* to be oppressed for having a sexuality that
    	differs from the majority.
    
    		Stopping the symbols of oppression (by stopping
    	offensive pictures) has much IN COMMON with stopping the
    	very real current oppression of gays in the workplace (by
    	allowing them to be open about it if they so choose.)
    
    						Suzanne...

    re: .25
    
    Right on!
    
    Lee

    RE: .19  <Guidelines by Martin>

    I agree whole-heartedly with you.  I also agree with Dave regarding
    the poster issue.
    
    At first it may sound contradictory. I think both of the views could be
    attributed to the firm belief in self-responsibility.  I admire the
    people who do have the courage to pour their souls in conferences,
    however I hope they are not doing it in a moment of passion.  It should
    be done only after enough consideration is given to what it might lead
    to.  Even if you later decide to delete the note, the replies would
    still be there.  Not only that, your note is never really deleted.  It
    is just `marked' as deleted.  
    
    It is very unfair for a hiring manager to discriminate based on what
    you wrote in this or any other conference. I believe that it does
    happen.  I really wish that it was not true.  However that is the life.
    Very few people can become Dr. King.  Frankly, I would rather prefer
    not to work with them. 

- Vikas

    
    Just for the record, having to consider anything you write to a
    NOTES conference as something attached to your resume is not always
    a *bad* thing.  When I took my current position at DEC (I'm a SW
    Engineer with MEIS), I knew no one in TWO.  Very shortly after I
    started work, a couple of folks from my group and surrounding groups
    came over to introduce themselves.  They said things like, "I've
    read your notes in WOMANNOTES, and I'm really pleased that you're
    working here."  What a pleasant way to start a new job!  (And you
    know who you are, you folks that spoke up, thanks!)
    
    So before anyone stops contributing notes out of fear, consider the
    benefits as well as the risks! 
    
    Rita
    

    I must agree with Martin that the "wrong person" reading a note
    could hurt you. It's like the judge telling a jury to disregard
    a comment. We all know everyone will remember it. However...
    
    Notes allows us to see and appreciate each other as mental beings
    rather than physical beings. In notes we don't have the first
    impression we usually get by looking at and evaluating someone.
    I almost wish DEC would hire a professional and start a members only
    conference for those who share common mental/physical problems.
    It's so much easier to say what you feel when you are typing than
    when you are facing someone. 
    
    I know reality is "what you say may be held against you" but I hope
    that through these discussions we can overcome these problems. After
    all, slavery used to be common, women couldn't vote, kings had the
    power of life and death, and America used to be a colony. Maybe
    our personal problems are not in the same league but people speaking
    out helped change the world on these other issues. Liesl

Re: 183.24             

>In another place in this file (the Cheryl Tiegs note), people are expressing
 discomfort with overt manifestations of rampant hetrosexuality, boardering
 on "testosterone poisoning".  I find it a bit strange to read suggestions
 that feeling uncomfortable around lesbians is a problem for the uncomfortable
 individual to overcome, but that feeling uncomfortable around pin-up photos
 is a problem for the person putting the photos up to overcome.  Or, are
 there something fundamentally different that I'm not understanding?

	I think there is something fundamental that you're not understanding.
	First of all, I don't think that the majority of contributors to the
	Cheryl Tiegs note were complaining about the PIN-UP as a symbol of
	"rampant heterosexuality" - though perhaps a group of more openly gay
	contributors might have felt that way.  What I *did* hear was people
	upset by the Pin-UP because it is a symbol of sexism, of presenting
	women as an object to be looked at - and this in a place of business! 	
	Admitting that one is gay in a public forum such as this is simply that-
	an admission.  Your discomfort around information that you gain about 
	an individual's lifestyle is your discomfort.  You don't have to read
	notes that make you uncomfortable, but you may have to look at calendars
	that make you uncomfortable, if they are hung in a public area such as 
	an office.

RE: 183.0              

>This information is irrelevant to their function in the company, and --
 should I ever interview them for a position -- might put me in the
 unfortunate position of worrying whether I am making a decision on
 the basis of "forbidden information."

And 183.27             
    
>It is very unfair for a hiring manager to discriminate based on what
 you wrote in this or any other conference. I believe that it does
 happen.  I really wish that it was not true.  However that is the life.
 Very few people can become Dr. King.  Frankly, I would rather prefer
 not to work with them. 

	It is not only unfair for a hiring manager to discriminate based
	on a candidate's sexual orientation, but it is also against Digital
	Policy.  Digital's new Affirmative Action now includes gays and 
	lesbians along with the	other minority groups that are protected 
	from discrimination in hiring and other areas.  It makes me sad that
	given this policy, gays are afraid to come out in a public forum
	like this, but other members of the Digital community feel quite
	comfortable admitting that they might discriminate IN A HIRING 
	SITUATION on the "basis of 'forbidden information' !"


	Was anyone else troubled in the same way by that?  The decision about
	whether or not to come out - in any setting - is a difficult one, but I
	think the decision belongs to the individual.  NOT to those who find it
	uncomfortable to know about such things.

						It makes me sad that
	given this policy, gays are afraid to come out in a public forum
	like this, but other members of the Digital community feel quite
	comfortable admitting that they might discriminate IN A HIRING 
	SITUATION on the "basis of 'forbidden information' !"

As the author of the admission in question, I was not expressing any
"comfort" in admitting that I might discriminate -- discomfort if anything --
and did not state whether I would discriminate *for* or *against* the
individual.

Martin.

    re: .30 I guess I read those replies a little more charitably than you
    did. I also talked about this to a very close friend of mine, who is a
    supervisor, and who is not as liberal as I am about lifestyle, and is
    not closed-minded about it either. Anyway, he said that he wouldn't
    be able to totally ignore that sort of information in an interview
    either (a person being gay or lesbian). Which seems honest, and
    very human, to me. But, as a supervisor, if the person could "get
    the work done", it wouldn't matter. Which, to my mind, is great!!!
    Cause that's what it's all about; recognizing that someone else
    is human and different, and recognizing their quarter is as good
    as anyone else's quarter (to lift an analogy from Eyes on the Prize).
    rant,rave,rant,rave
    	Mez

    <--(.31)
    
    "...and did not state whether I would discriminate *for* or *against* the
individual."
    
    
    Martin, Martin, that is disingenuously sophistic of you.
    
    						=maggie

    Sorry, but since one of the note you replied to was mine, I will
    have to reply.

>    What I *did* hear was people upset by the Pin-UP because it is a symbol
>    of sexism, of presenting women as an object to be looked at - and this
>    in a place of business! 

    An implicit assumption made in the above paragraph is that the poster
    is symbol of sexism and presents women as an object. Unfortunately not
    everyone here shares that view.  I personally would rather let the
    individual involved (in this case the model herself) make that
    distinction.  I have already agreed that putting that poster in the
    office is something which I would not do, precisely because it makes you
    uncomfortable. 
    
    Only recently I saw one report on CNN.  It involved another
    `swim-suite' issue but this time from a college in California located
    in fictitious `Garlic City' (it had something to do with producing lots
    of garlics, I forgot the actual name). Students there decided to learn
    little bit more about the entrepreneurship and produce the calendar by
    themselves.  CNN interviewed some students who pose for calendars,
    their mothers and some school officials.  None of them had any
    objections.  It would be quite inappropriate for certain Mr. Fawlell
    (It is a made up name.  It should be considered as pure coincidence if
    there is even aremote resemblence to any person, living or dead.) to
    tell the buyer of that calendar that (s)he should not buy it.  I would
    claim that it is Mr. Fawlell who has not been able to give the respect
    to the model in the question that she deserves and that it is Mr.
    Fawlell who is just not yet ready to treat the model as an indiviual
    who is being capable of making her own decisions and it is he who
    treating her in most offensive and patronizing manner. 
    
    If you would care to see your own objections being raised by this Mr.
    Fawlell, I hope you might be able to see the calendar in a different
    light. 

>    It is not only unfair for a hiring manager to discriminate based on a
>    candidate's sexual orientation, but it is also against Digital
>    Policy. 
    
    Sorry that's what I should have said.  However my point was to warn
    them of the risks which some people might UNKOWNINGLY be taking by
    their own writing either here or for that matter anywhere else. It is
    very similar to telling a visitor to be very careful while walking late
    at night in the Central Park.  Does that mean that I condone the
    dangers involved?  Does that mean that one should not take a stroll in
    the Central Park?  It just means that when one ventures out for a
    nightly stroll there, one should rather do it after careful reasoning
    of the consequences and NOT as a spontaneous reaction to a good evening
    meal. 
    
>>    Very few people can become Dr. King.  Frankly, I would rather prefer
>>    not to work with them. 
    
    Just to prevent any horrible misunderstanding,  please note that my
    reference to `them' refers to the hiring managers mentioned in the
    previous sentences.
    
- Vikas 

    
    			   <debbie Fuller>
    A major barrier facing people today in the workplace is socialization.
    This includes sexrole stereotyping, male-female interaction patterns,
    and social norms - all of which interact with and enhance each other.
    
    Regrettably, fear and ignorance surrounding the public health issues
    of AIDS has been used to defeat any person wanting to "Come out
    of the closet" Using the AIDS epidemic as a excuse to discriminate
    against gay men and lesbians is just plain Wrong!
    
    Let no one person judge another,  These comments in no way decides
    whether homosexuality is good or bad, right or wrong.  It is up
    to the individual person to decide what is right for them.  If that
    person chooses to be open about their sexual orientation and can
    handle all the pressures and discrimination against them, then I
    support their right for freedom of expression.
    
    Even though it is against DEC policy to discriminate/harass people
    because of their sexual orentation.  I have seen it countless times
    and it is such a taboo issue that the personnel dept. has a tough
    time handling it or completely ignores the problems.  I always hear
    he/she are "different" meaning their sexual orentation.  Well different
    doesn't mean BAD! Different just means different.  Wouldn't this
    be a very boring world if we were all alike.
    
    						Deb

The following reply is from a member of the community who wished to
    remain anonymous.
    
    Bonnie Reinke
    moderator
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    As a gay man, I'm continually faced with the same decision every time I
    meet someone new. Do I tell them I'm gay? Since I don't fit the gay
    stereotype, it would probably take them a long while to work it out.

    My initial reaction to this question is to not say anything. I wait
    until I get to know someone before I open that area of my life -
    assuming I want to do that.

    But why do that all? Why not lead a double life, keeping my personal
    life private and away from work, and my work life away from home. It
    would save all the problems of discrimination, hassle, stupid
    comments and so on.

    I could keep that side of myself hidden from my managers and so on. But
    why should I? Every day at work I'm constantly reminded of the fact I
    live in a straight world. The men I work with point out other women, or
    talk about their girlfriends and wives. They have pictures of their
    loved ones on their desk.

    I want the same freedom, too. However, I am restricted by other's
    people's reactions. The very first person I told stopped talking to me.
    It took me some ten years after that, several attempts to talk about
    myself before I succeeded in becoming happy with myself.

    There are more practical considerations as well. What happens should
    my lover leave me? That would have a devastating effect on me, and would
    drastically affect my work. If I don't say anything, nobody would know,
    I'd have to bear it on my own.

    To keep it to myself, I have to expend energy and effort maintaining a
    false image of myself. The fact is, keeping it a secret began to really
    wind me up. It assumed a significance in my life way out of proportion
    to what it should.

    My sexuality is irrelevant to the job I do, and to who I am.

    So, I chose to tell those people most important to me. My managers,
    coworkers and my parents. It wasn't an easy choice to make. I risked a
    great deal at work - one of my fears was that I would lose my job, or
    lose friends (as happened before). At work, being open has worked very
    well. I've found a lot of support and understand from the people around
    me.

    Telling my parents was even harder. I wasn't too sure of the result. I
    wanted them to know because in the past I had to be deceitful; now I
    wanted them to be truthful. However, sometimes the truth can do more
    damage, as in "I wish you never told me". They rejected what I told
    them. My father believes I'm not gay, and that with therapy, somehow
    I'll change. I believed that too, ten years ago. But after a while,
    when it doesn't go away, it becomes rather obvious. I decided I could
    spend the rest of my life fighting a battle I would lose and go to the
    grave a worn out, tired man, or turn around and accept it.

    Whether I should come out or not, either way, I'm damned. If I do come
    out, someone may say they would rather not know. If I don't someone
    will say why didn't I tell them. I have to judge the individual, and,
    like all other humans, I make mistakes.

    As well as for myself, what I do affects other gay men and women. If I
    remain hidden in a society largely ignorant of gay people, they'll
    never come to know us as people. Rather they will hear about us through
    other sources, and get a distorted view of us.

    These are my reasons. Thanks for listening.

    When I think about the amount of pain I must have accidentally
    inflicted on gay colleagues and friends simply by *assuming* they
    fit the same mold I do, I wish there was a magic pill or something
    that would let you go back and change the past. Or at least send
    out apologies.
    
    It takes two people to maintain a closet.  If I refuse to see
    the difference in you, then I've put you in the closet and
    made it that much harder for you to tell me the truth.
    
    But if you refuse to show me the difference in you, I'll never
    know the closet is there.
    
    It must become very difficult to have to go through the same
    thing over and over again every time you decide to be more
    honest with people, prying mind after mind open and forcing
    knowledge into them. 
    
    But as painful as it is, and as much difficulty as I know I've
    caused some people I care very much about, I think it's worth
    it.  I'm now aware of a whole world I didn't know about before,
    and maybe instead of inflicting pain by accident, in the future
    I'll be able to accept and support.
    
    --bonnie