Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    kerry,
    why are you picking on children only?
    
    i know a few adults like that.

    Yes,Yes,Yes, It sure did bother me when my son just sat and demanded
    I do things or get things for him. Then I realized that it was my
    fault he was this way. I spoiled and waited on him for years, and
    now he expects to be waited on. 
    I feel that all of us who are (or have been) waiters, have only
    ourselves to blame. If we never had started doing it, then no one
    would have expected it. 
    My son got married last spring, and now his wife waits on him. I
    have tried to tell her not to, but to no avail. So, as long
    as he's married to this young lady,he will continue to be the kind
    who bellows and expects others to fetch for him. 
    I learned a valuable lesson from all of this.....I will never be
    a waiter again.....
    
    kathie 
          

    There are more than 2 kinds of people in the world.  There are people
    like me who don't wait on others, and who don't demand that others
    wait on them.
    
    It didn't take my daughter long to realize that Mommy had no more
    inclination to wait on her than she did on Mommy.  (Unfortunately,
    sometimes we go to MY mother's house and SHE waits on both of us!
     We don't demand it though.  My mother has what I think of as the
    "Edith Bunker Complex" bad - you know scurrying into the kitchen
    for the beer!  All I can say is, I sure didn't inherit it as the
    two men I've lived with, so far in my life, would probably be quick
    to attest.)
    
    Lorna
    

    re.3
    kids are born selfish and have to be taught to be independent.
    wwhom do you think they learn from....
    
    					kelly

    I had to make a conscious decision not to be a "waiter" for my SO,
    and it isn't always easy.  
    
    In one case, while at a ski lodge for a weekend with friends, and
    my sister-in-law in attendance, I told my SO that I wouldn't get
    him a cup of coffee since he could just as easily do it for himself
    (we were both sitting at the kitchen table reading the newspaper).
    She actually told me (right there in front of everyone!) that it
    would be a lot better for my marriage if I would do those kinds
    of things for him.  I laughed and said, "I'm not his mother and
    I have no intention to start acting like it now.  He was an adult
    when we got married, and he better plan to stay one, because I won't
    act like he's a child."  
    
    She was shocked! And this is a college-educated woman in her 
    mid-thirties with a successful career in real estate.
    
    "Waitee" behavior is learned, and can be unlearned, if the motivation
    is strong enough (in my SO's case, he would be a "waitee" until
    hell freezes over!).
    
    My problem is distinguishing between my doing things for my SO because
    I enjoy it, and doing things because he expects it.  Often a very
    fine line.
    
    Gloria
    

    I saw a movie or something where two college roommates would try
    to turn the other into a "tool."  They would pride themselves on
    NOT helping the other one out.  This might mean that they would
    sleep all night long with the light on, rather than getting up and
    turning it off, so they wouldn't turn into the other's tool.
    
    I thought it was pretty funny.  
    
    I agree with a previous comment that there is a fine line between
    doing something for someone because you love them, and doing something
    because it is expected.
    
    I tend to be a waiter and like to help other people out.  But once
    it is expected and the recepient becomes annoyed with me, (because
    I didn't do what *they* expected) that's it for sure!  Luckily, I 
    haven't run into this problem since I got divorced!  And I don't 
    have kids.  I'll have to make sure they learn to only do something 
    because they want to, not because of someone else's expectation.
    
    Judy

Re: .7  Do you know the name of that movie (or something)?  This is at least 
the 2nd time I've heard that same reference and now I think I'd like to see 
the rest of the story.  If not, I'll look around the movie conference.

I like doing things for people.  I will not be ordered around (one of my neices
tries to be a dictator).  I've had to learn to enjoy having things done for me.
Even now, I occasionally stop to think about why I'm doing something for 
someone else: am I choosing to do this thing or am I being driven by the habit 
of an old lesson learned too well?

CQ

    what is so funny about this whole note is that we all like to think
    of ourselves as waiters.how many manyof us are going to admit that
    we are weightees??????
    
    
    then again there are the people that wont't let us doing anything
    for ourselves...
    
    				kelly
    

this one's over my head...

cq

                 people who deal in guilt

    When I was growing up my folks frequently asked my sisters
    and I to run errands for them. Bonnie will you go get, Ditise,
    let the dog out, Lissa, can you find my glasses, etc. Now I
    do the same thing with my kids, and yes some of the time, I am
    just sitting doing nothing, just like some of the time, my parents
    were. Is it unreasonable of parents to expect kids to fetch things
    in this sort of pattern? 

    Bonnie, I don't think that kind of "fetching" is unreasonable, but
    the underlying concept can be taken to extremes.
    
    I know a family where the father couldn't wait for his sons to be
    big enough to deal with *all* the snow shoveling, *all* the car
    repairs, *all* the garden work, and his daughters big enough to
    handle *all* the laundry, etc, etc., so he could sit back with his
    feet up and order them around from his easy chair.  Children are
    children, not miniature adults, and shouldn't be expected to be
    able to deal with adult responsibilities all the time.
    
    G

    Re. .8
    
    I reread my reply and remembered where I heard the tool story. 
    About a year ago Leigh Montville wrote about it in the Boston Globe
    Sunday Magazine.  He had had dinner with his college roommate and
    was writing about his memories.  So, the tool story is his.
    
    Amazing that I could read about that incident and visualize it so 
    clearly that it seemed to be a movie!
    
    Re: .14 (I think??)
    
    I'm one of six kids and I think you learn to fetch things when you
    are part of a big family.  Someone is always up and getting something
    so you can ask them to get something for you.  In the next ten minutes
    you end up getting something for them.  
    
    As long as the relationship is reciprocal, it seems okay to me.
    I just don't want anyone to abuse the privilege.
    
    Although, my parents got spoiled in one way.  They had a relatively
    "new" driver for about 6 years.  Anytime anyone needed anything from
    the store, or to be picked up, there was a willing driver. (To say
    the least!) Once the oldest four were in college there was a few 
    years without a driver at home.  Then they had to do their own 
    fetching!
    
    Re. .15
    
    With all this snow, I'm considering adopting a child myself!
    
             :-)
    
    Maybe a snow blower would be easier...
    
    Judy

    

Re: .16

	Judy, I know of what you speak!! I remember growing up, thinking,
"Boy, I'm gonna have at least 3 kids!!! I need one for dishes, one for
vacuming, and one for snow-shovelling!"  My brothers and I were doing fetch and
carry since Day 1, but that's the only way you can keep the household
running, especially with 8 people in it to mess it up!! I only minded it
when each of my brothers got out of doing chores and I never was able to
because I was "the girl and it was girl's work!"

ptooey on that!!!

	But back on the subject of "waiting with a twist"... I think what
I might be hearing is that you're discussing "caretaking".  It's a role
that women traditionally fall into where we "take care of husbands and
children", normally to the exclusion of our own needs and happiness.  Now-
adays, tho', men are starting to fall into the role because of the
expansion of their roles in the family... not enough, tho' :*).

	In every relationship there has to be at least 1 caretaker.
In good relationships, there are 2.  When there is only 1, then not
everyone's needs are being met, namely the caretaker's!!!!

	The caretaker will, upon seeing your empty glass, promptly
(and usually without asking) refill it.  Your paper is retrieved, your
socks are folded and put away, your cleaning is retrieved from the
dry cleaners, your favorite beer is ice cold in the fridge, sex is
anticipated for the evening so she's bathed and perfumed and
wearing your favorite sexy negligee....

	And she practically knocks you aside in your efforts to do
things for yourself.  As you get up to get yourself a cold one, she
takes your glass, pushes you down, and says "Oh, I'm up! I'll
get it!!!"...

	It can be as dependency-making for you as it might be
satisfying!!!!  It can also make you mad if you LIKE doing things
for yourself.

	But here's the interesting part:  she'll get raging mad at
you at some point because YOU don't meet HER needs the way she meets
yours!!! And she'll blow up at some point and you won't even know
what hit you!

	And you'll defend yourself: I don't WANT you to do these
things for me.... (but you'll let her anyway, right?) and it's
unfair of you to expect me to do them for you!!!!

*sigh*

	Well, you get the idea.  It's just one more of the many
wonderful games you can play with you SO or spouse... ones that can
get you into hot water SO FAST!!!!

	There's a favorite scenario of mine that goes something
like this:

	George loves fresh orange juice every morning and goes
out of his way to obtain it.  Mary goes right by the store he buys it
in on her way home from work.  So he always asks her to stop for it.

	George:  Mary, would you stop and pick up my oj tonight?
	Mary:    Sure....

George comes home from work, Mary forgot his oj, and the store is closed.

	George:  Mary, what happened?? I thought you were going to pick
		 up my oj?
	Mary:	 I'm sorry, hon, but I got out of work late....
	George:  Why didn't you call and tell me you weren't gonna make it?
	Mary: 	 Get off my back, George!!!  I thought I was going to be
		 able to do it!!!

So they have a fight!! And don't think this is the first time it's happened.
Mary lets George down every once in awhile with this exact same problem.
He wants her to meet his need and she doesn't meet it.  Mary feels she meets
it enough to not warrant the headache when she fails.  She also thinks that
George should take care of it himself if it's so important.  George feels
that if she's NOT going to meet his needs, she should TELL him so that he
can meet it himself.

So, who's in the wrong here (if there is one)?

And who could believe that something THIS simple could really be this deep?

Me, personally, I'd stop asking Mary to get it at all (if it was that
important to me), but then I'd REALLY resent it and I wouldn't want to caretake
for her at all in return!!!

Karen

    re .17
    
    Who's in the wrong here?
    
    I would lean toward George.  Getting OJ in the morning is nice,
    but it isn't a matter of life and death.  It isn't even a matter
    worth getting worked up over.  If Mary can't get it once in awhile,
    it's no big deal (this is assuming that Mary doesn't mind getting
    it in the first place).
    
    If it is a matter of life and death then George can drive n miles
    to the nearest 24-hour store.
    
    			Barbara b.

    Or they could "pre-agree" on a deal.  It's George's need, so he
    is ultimately responsible for meeting it for himself.  Mary could
    let him know when it was convenient for her to pick it up for him
    (maybe once or twice a week when she was going to that store anyway),
    and otherwise assume he would get it for himself.  That way the
    default is him meeting his own need.  
    
    On the days she volunteers to get it, to my way of thinking, she
    is making an agreement that she is pretty certain she can keep.
    It shouldn't matter whether it's o.j. or the suit he needs at the
    cleaners for an important presentation the next day.    If she makes
    the agreement, she should honor it.  
    
    Being an adult, George makes sure there is a bag of oranges
    in the house as well.  That way, if neither he nor Mary can do the
    errand, he gets out the old glass juicer and his backup plan goes
    into action... 
                        

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    
    I think the trap in situations like this is assuming that just because
    she is passing by, it's convenient for her to meet his need on a
    regular basis.  I would consider doing a routine nightly errand
    like this for my SO a major disruption, and I would get angry and
    start "forgetting" if it were expected of me, and if I bought into
    that. 

    Re .17, I'm afraid that, at this point in my life, George and his
    orange juice just wouldn't be worth it.  (Have a nice life George)
    
    Lorna
    

Oh, it was nice reading those replies!! Because yes, it is George
that has and IS the problem.  He makes it impossible for Mary to
win:  she loses if she doesn't get his oranges because she's
not meeting HIS needs and she loses if she DOES get his oranges
because she is meeting HIS needs at a cost to her own needs (sometimes
you HAVE to stay late at work, n'est-ce pas?)...

Fulfilling someone's needs is easier to do when your own needs are
periodically met....

I offered that as a sample of the TRICKY ways that caretaking can
bite you in the a**!

The psychologist says that the most desrtructive and least-rewarding
role for both partners is that of the caretaker....

Karen

    Least rewarding, is right!
    
    But how to avoid getting locked into a caretaker role?  Certainly
    I try to be aware of doing it, of being too much of a "waiter".
    But little by little,  I backslide (i.e. why do *I* always jump
    up when the salt and pepper shakers aren't put on the table?)
    
    What I need is a little more support from the "waitee" with good
    intentions, instead of lip service.  How do you ruffle a waitee's
    feathers enough to get them to wait a little, without causing a
    major uproar?  Any suggestions?
    
    G
    
    

    	I would like to mention that being a waiter is not just a female
    mind set.  I grew up the oldest of 4 children.  My younger brothers
    and sisters were 5,7,& 9 years younger than I and both my parents
    worked hard to make ends meet (often my father worked two jobs.)
    I often did things for my family in the way of fetch and carry and
    doing odd jobs.  When I was in grade school my parents would leave
    for work and drop my siblings off at the sitters before I even woke
    up.  I dressed myself, fixed my own breakfast, and took myself to
    school on my bike.  Because we lived close to the school, I went
    home for lunch and made it myself.  When I got home, which was before
    everyone else, I washed clothes and hung them out to dry, later
    bringing them in and folding them while watching t.v.  Everyone
    worked hard in my family except the young kids, but they had chores
    too.  When I went to college I paid my own way through loans and
    working two part-time jobs, one of which was as a waiter.  To this
    day, I do not like people doing things for me, it makes me
    uncomfortable.  If you prepare your own food, you get to eat what
    you most prefer and you get to eat it the way you most like it
    prepared.  If you run your own errands, you don't have to depend
    on someone else to make sure it is done.  I get uncomfortable a
    little at restraunts (I accept being waited on, but I really don't
    like it.) I like to do my own repairs because I like to make sure
    they are done right.  I don't at all mind doing things for others
    that I would not like them to do for me.  Part of that is because
    I know I really don't mind, but I am always somewhat suspicious
    that inspite of what others may say, they really do resent doing
    for me more than they say.  
    	I believe that being the "waiter" gives you more power than
    has been mentioned here.  If I do the driving when I go out with
    a group, then I ensure the driving is done in a careful manor, and
    I am not left to trusting others.  The women I have known have always
    been grateful for the things I do for them, and that is a reward
    in itself.  I do appreciate the way I was reared.  The only thing
    I want out of a relationship is companionship, I don't need anything
    else.
    	I know that this may be the exception rather than the rule.
    I have some good friends that are devout Mormons, and have some
    strong opinions about the roles in their family.  They currently
    have eight children, two by adoption, and in that family the woman
    is the caretaker of the childrens physical needs as far as preparing
    the food and washing clothes etc.  She works from the moment she
    gets up till she goes to bed at night.  On the other hand he works
    a full time job and a part time job at nights and on weekends to
    pay for the clothes, food, and shelter.  She does not bring income
    into the home, believing that to be his responsibility.  He takes
    off from work when his wife is sick, is always quick to give her
    a backrub, and spends what little spare time he has trying to take
    care of the childrens emotional needs, a job they both share.  
    Neither one of them feels taken advantage of, and after all, isn't
    that the main point?
    
    DRC 

    re .22
    
    A very wise psychotherapist once told me (in reference to yours
    truly) that always wanting to be the "waiter" was a compulsion to
    have control over everything.  So there may be some hidden rewards
    in being a waiter -- you get to call the shots.
    
    G

    
    I am a waitee.  I don't know how I got this way, but I am.  My SO
    is a waiter.  I don't know how he got this way eigher.  He doesn't
    seem to mind, and I try not to take advantage of him.  I have even
    told him that I know I tend to be that way so don't feel that you
    can't say no.  He tells me that it is all the same to him.  He just
    doesn't mind.
    
    His mother, on the other hand can hardly stand still for the thought
    that you might want something (even in your own house).  At least
    half of our verbal conversations has me replying "gee - no but you
    are very thoughtful to ask".  She drives even me - a died in the
    wool waitee up the wall.  Perhaps my SO has seen so much of her
    waiting that his waiting seems trivial.
    
    My folks, on the other hand, did treat me and some of us other kids
    like unpaid employees (undeserving employees at that).  That may
    be a clue to my tendency, but I would hope not.
    
    So I guess you cannot say that if mom is a waiter then you will
    be a waitee - or if mom is a waitee then you'll be a waiter.