Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    I received mail asking why I thought these stats were interesting,
    this was part of my reply.
    
    
    I think that the differences in genders are interesting and worth
    examining. To do this one must, by definition, say "men do..." and
    "women do ..." to differentiate. If there is a statistical difference,
    surely the reasons why bear closer examination? Foidermore, statistics
    say that n% of people do ..., meaning that (100-n)% don't. Therefore it
    is impossible to infer from statistics that <female> does this, <male>
    does that. To my mind, therefore, such statistics as I quote cannot be
    said to apply to any one person and therefore the issue is reduced to
    discussing trends, not people. 
    
    I trust this explains the purpose of the note. 
    

        RE:  .0 & .1
    
                As long as we all realize that any inferences
           made about female trends and male trends are purely
           matters of idle speculation (and have no basis in
           reality for any individual *OR* for the group as a
           whole.) 
    
                In other words, statistics can be used to argue
           almost any sort of case you'd care to make about
           anything.  The numbers may be accurate, but the
           inferences fall *WAY* short of stating any sort of
           TRUTH about anything.

                                                Suzanne...

Women traditionally have been ending up with the suckie side of
marriage, so they want out of it more than men, who usually have it
better.

And they start a relationship with a man that eventually degrades into
the traditional relationship or are quicker to realize that the
relationship is not providing what they want/need.

Which is not to say it's ALWAYS like this (men can be in the same
situation as well) but it's usually like this... not much has changed,
despite our efforts and the occasional moment of clarity.

My opinion...

Karen

.4

Hi, Iggles!!!

I guess what I was talking about was not the traditional "values"
of relationships past, but the roles.... I HAVE home and family and
all the traditions therein... and I wouldn't trade it!

I'm more talking about the "everyone needs a wife" role... Hell, *I*
need a wife! I work full-time and keeping a life going at home is a
real bear!!!

In the last generation (the one before ours.. and for point of reference,
I'm nearly 33) the wife got the raw end of the stick!!!  The marriage
was (and is) severely tilted in the man's favor!!!  No one wants to be
a "wife" anymore... It's too demanding a job with little return!

MS. magazine (yup! I read it cover to cover!) had a poll a few years back
in which BETTER than 72% of the women answered that they would NOT
marry again if given the choice!  Of course, this was not balanced with
answers from husbands....  

The majority of women feel that THEY are carrying the weight and the
responsibility for their marriage, and that their male partner does
NOT contribute in an equal share for maintaining it.  I'm reading a
book now called "Happily Ever After" which was written by some psychologist
(I'm a sucker for psyche books!) in which she says that women in her
practice were far readier to call it quits because the problem had existed
longer for them (indicating that the man wasn't aware there even WAS a
problem) and they saw little if no chance for resolution.  The WOMEN
traditionally initiated the quest for help.. and in one case, a woman
sent her husband alone to the therapist saying," He's got SO MANY MORE
problems in this marriage than I do, that he's got about 3 years of
therapy ahead of him to even CATCH UP to where I am now...!"  

So, again... I'm only offering an opinion on I think WHY women will
usually call it quits before a man does.  I know that in MY case when I
broke up with someone several years ago, it was after years of seeing
my happiness go down the drain until I was emotionally starved to death.
Only then did I call it quits... and despite the years of TRYING to talk
to him, TRYING to get him to feed me emotionally, he was shocked when I
packed my suitcase and left... THE SECOND TIME!!

Your dream of hearth and home and a wife and children and support and love
can be attained, but I hope your "wife" role isn't the traditional one...

Karen

    >note 188.1 Human Relations
    >We believe that since women have become "equal" and are no longer
    >necessarily tied in to a relationship by financial need to provide
    >for the children, that it may be time to re-examine the assumption
    >that an "SO" relationship has to be "monogamous".  Apparently most
    >men never believed this was a necessary condition for "living
    >together".  Why do most women seem so possessive" in order to be
    >happy in an "SO" relationship if most men don't care.
    
    >note 188.3 Human Relations
    >Assume a man is well known to have "strayed" in the past....
    >Wouldn't a woman assume that men who "cheat" once will again???
    >Do we need to establish the "vows" before living together.                          
    
    >note 171.4  WomanNotes
    >This is exactly the "problem" that we older men find confusing.
    >The "modern" woman seems to feel a "traditional" relationship is
    >"degrading" while some of us are still trying to achieve that state!
                                                               
    What's wrong with this picture?  I have a feeling that the answer
    can be found in why so many women initiate the breakup of
    relationships.  Does "traditional" relationships mean that the man
    does whatever he wants, whenever he wants while the woman cleans
    up after him?             
    
    I'd like to pose a question.  
    WHAT DO MEN WANT IN A RELATIONSHIP?

    One woman's opinion, based on nothing but her own experience ...
    
    In most courting relationships I've ended, it's been because the
    man involved was essentially lazy about the relationship.  Very
    laissez faire, when more commitment, energy or contribution was
    needed, or less willing to work on problems.  
    
    And even sometimes, less aware that there even is a problem!
    
    G

    Re: .6
    
>    Does "traditional" relationships mean that the man
>    does whatever he wants, whenever he wants while the woman cleans
>    up after him?             

    Probably.  But this is off the topic of the base note.  If you want
    to start a topic of "what do men want in a relationship" (either
    here or in HUMAN_RELATIONS or in MENNOTES, if a similar discussion
    hasn't already been started), I'll be pleased to contribute.
    
    I cannot offer a good explanation as to why women break up more
    relationships than do men, but I note that it matches my observations
    of perhaps a dozen or more terminated relationships (not all my own!)
    I'd also observe that this may not be a new phenomenon, but merely
    more visible in an era where divorce is more acceptable.  Thus I'd
    disagree with any attempt at comparing "modern" and "traditional"
    women.
    					Steve

>        In several recent studies, 80% of 'courting' relationships were
>    broken up at the instigation of the woman.

    I forgot to mention that these surveys were in and around Boston, Mass.

    The two reasons why I broke up previous relationships came down
    to : 
    
    	a) the guy didn't respect me or value my opinions.  For example,
    	   when I offered a suggestion to him and he passed it over, but
    	   thought it was a great idea 10 minutes later when his buddy
    	   brought it up (having heard it from me), I knew the relation-
    	   ship was doomed.
    
    	b) the guy and I had very different futures in mind.  I wasn't
    	   too interested in pursuing a long-term relationship with
    	   someone who was content to work in a junkyard (this was
    	   around high-school, but would still apply now,  I can't help
    	   it if I'm hopelessly middle-class).
    
    In both cases the men involved would have been happy to continue
    the relationship, but I felt it was pointless to continue seeing
    them.  The problem was a long-term attitude that I wasn't going
    to change in either of them.
    
    			Barbara b.

RE: .0
    
>    In several recent studies, 80% of 'courting' relationships were
>    broken up at the instigation of the woman.

	How did they define instigation?  Was the woman initiating the legal
	procedure?  Or did they survey people asking them if it was a
	mutual decision or did one of them tell the other that that was it?

    
>    Similarly, an examination of the divorce statistics both in the
>    UK and US reveal that women are responsible for initating legal
>    action toward divorce 75% of the time.

	This could just mean that the men leave the women to do all the
	work towards making the divorce happen.
    

    My opinion is that the traditional role of wife is unfair to women, and
    that more men could live with a bad marriage, so had no need to end it.
    It is more socially acceptable for men to have affairs then women.  More
    men have careers, which gives them another life outside the marriage.
    The traditional role would also allow men to avoid child-rearing, so 
    basically men could pick and choose any parts of the marriage that they
    wanted to be involved in, so why get a divorce until you found another
    person to marry?

    Now remember, this is just my view of traditional marrital rules, and
    has no reflection on current changing values.  Perhaps the marriages
    that don't have these traditional roles, are not going to end in divorce.

    ...Karen

    Well, at least I was one exception to the trend - I left because
    I wasn't happy. 
    
    Too bad for all of us who hate the opposite sex. Intelligent women
    will avoid us, we'll learn to ignore and live without them, then
    the only children born will be raised in 'sexist' homes. Does
    sound like the end of more than just feminism to me.
    

    
    
    Both of my husbands would have stayed in the marriage as it was
    if I would only have started staying home more often.  This meant
    no more Food Co-op, no more schooling for me, no more political
    action committee's, and no CAREER advancement for me.
    
    When faced with that I said I wanted out and was told "OK you pay."
    
    And I have paid and paid and paid.
    
    "Just a little bitter."
    
    _peggy
    
    ps. If you really think that we are heading for trouble by not
    interacting with "non-sexist" men, I think that you are not looking
    at the possibilities - there is always adoption.  Take those poor
    kids away from the unhealthly atmosphere of "sexist" families. :^)
    
    

    	I have some suggestions as to why the statistics would point
    to women ending a relationship quicker than men.  These are of course
    generalities, and I am sure not the case many times, but I would
    be interested in the women's point of view (this is also being
    discussed in MENNOTES).  
    	I believe that ending a marriage vs. ending a courting relationship
    is different, and will address each seperately.
    	When a couple is not married, they generally do not wear wedding
    rings.  A woman may therefore still be asked out occasionally by
    a man who is not aware that the woman is in a courting relationship.
    If that relationship has gone sour, but neither party has put an
    end to it, the woman may be prompted to rethink the relationship
    when someone else ask her out.  Being asked out by someone else
    may remind the dissatisfied woman that there are other options,
    even if the woman has no particular interest in the man who asked
    her out.  On the other hand, most women do not ask out men, and
    a man generally will not ask out other women while he is in a
    relationship that has not been concluded, and therefore may be slower
    to concluded that there are other options.  Obviously no generality
    holds true for everyone, and this may not even be true in general,
    but I through out the idea for comment.
    	In a marriage situation, when there are no children involved,
    I haven't the slightest idea why women would be the first to end
    it. I would even think the reverse would most probly be true, since
    many men do not wear wedding rings, and women they meet casually
    may not be aware they are in a relationship, and more flirtatious
    behavior may occur than would otherwise if the marriage status were
    known.
    	In a marriage situation where there are children involved I
    would like to point out that generally women retain custody of the
    children, and this may affect the number of men who would seek to
    end the relationship vs. the number of women.  If a man falls out
    of love with his wife, but loves his children very much, he will
    be reluctant to suffer through the seperation from his children,
    and may continue in the marriage.  In spite of rumor to the contrary,
    most of the men I know love their children greatly.  So do most
    of the women I know, but a woman who falls out of love with her
    husband can reasonably assume that she can end the relationship
    with her husband and still retain custody of her children.  
    	I would also like to point out that society tends to be sympathetic
    to a woman who is divorced and has children living with her, and
    many people will be supportive to situation.  ON the other hand,
    a man who goes through a divorce and who does not have custody of
    his children will be viewed by many as having gotten the "best"
    of the situation, and will have to suffer through the attitudes
    that have been created by the many statistics often quoted in the
    papers of men who leave their families and fail to support their
    children.  
    	It has been pointed out in various studies that in a divorce
    situation where there are children involved, the man's standard of
    living improves whereas the woman's standard of living is lowered.
    Be that as it may, to many money is not the most important issue.
    	I would be interested in any comments.            
    
    DRC (David, but we have too many of these, so I'll go by DRC)
    

>    	In a marriage situation, when there are no children involved,
>    I haven't the slightest idea why women would be the first to end
>    it. I would even think the reverse would most probly be true, since
>    many men do not wear wedding rings, and women they meet casually
>    may not be aware they are in a relationship, and more flirtatious
>    behavior may occur than would otherwise if the marriage status were
>    known.

I think this hits the nail on the head: men have a much easier time having
extra-marital affairs than women do, so there's not as much need for them to
end the marriage. They just start up a new relationship. For many reasons
women don't have the same options, they have to end one relationship before
they can start the next one. Women don't have the same financial
independence, or the resources or opportunities to have extra-marital
relationships. Having a wife makes having an affair easy, having a husband
makes it almost impossible.

don.

    I disagree very strongly with the notion that men somehow can
    have affairs easier than can women.  I'd argue the opposite.  If
    you're postulating that women end more relationships than do men,
    a corrolary to me would be that more women would feel comfortable
    with straying outside the relationship than men.
    
    In any event, I don't think the ease of anything is germane to the
    discussion at hand, and I certainly don't agree that wearing a ring
    or not makes any difference at all.  To me, it's all in the person's
    attitude towards the relationship - how important it is to them.
    The more important it is, male or female, the smaller chance there
    is of that person damaging the relationship.
    
    Here's an idea to toss around - could it be that the recent visible
    advances by women with regards to their dependence (or lack thereof)
    on men have convinced many women that they in fact don't need
    their partner at all?  This may not be a totally conscious thought,
    but it may be behind the actions that some women take to damage
    relationships.
    					Steve

    Maybe Wendy (paraphrased in .0) is right ...
    
    Of the last five courting relationships I've been in (current one 
    excepted), I ended all but one.  
    
    The reasoning was :
    
    We did not have the same *values*.
    
    This is not to say we did not get along, did not enjoy one another's 
    company, did not love each other.  It just means that these 
    people and I did not believe in or want the same things in life.  
    We tried, and when it became apparent to me that we would not grow 
    together, I ended it.  It hurt, but a lot less than dragging it
    out until we were both truly miserable.
    
    Of the four, two agreed with me and two didn't know there was a 
    problem (my fault, I've never been known as the Great Communicator).  
    Of the original five, all but one (*not* the one who had the 
    outrageous nerve to leave me :-) have since become friends.