Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    	You offer no figure on suicide attempts -- are attempts in a
    similar ratio?
    
    	I think you could look at other things as well.  I believe (no
    concrete evidence on hand, just vague recollections of psych course
    stats) that men are more likely to choose violent (and more
    "successful") means of suicide, while women are more likely to use
    the less violent methods, increasing the chances of being found
    and "rescued".
    
    	Hard to form an opinion on a vague statistic...
    
    						--D

    Men "succeed" at suicide more often than women, but women attempt
    it far more often than men do (3 to 1?  5 to 1?  I forget). I haven't
    figured out why there's such a difference. Maybe women tend to feel
    the pull of other people needing and depending on them more. I should
    also mention that the suicide rate (I think both successes and
    failures) is highest with adolescents and elders.
    
    
    Liz

    Steven_D:
    
    	I ask again, who is the 'we' to whom you constantly refer?
    
    You are walking on egg shells with words like 'sane,' in my opinion
    until you offer a definition.  Your conclusion that 'sane people
    only "attempt suicide"...' is not supported by any works on the
    subject of suicide I have read.  The best work on this subject,
    which I read many years ago, is SUICIDE (the author escapes me but
    I will try to remember to note same [I have the book at home, the
    topic is one which interest me]).
    
    A suicide hotline group I did some work with a number of years ago
    also fails to support your contention.  They argued suicide is a
    personal act and can be rational (many eastern philosophies and
    religions also support this arguement).

    Everyone has the potential to become so desperate that they prefer
    to die rather than continue in the current situation. Sometimes
    death seems like the best or only option. When I say "succeed at
    suicide", I mean that they die. I prefer not to catalog people into
    "sane" and "insane".
    
    Liz

    This is true.  Women attempt suicide more often, and men commit
    suicide more often.  In addition, men choose methods like shooting
    oneself with a gun (more "violent") and women choose methods like
    overdosing on sleeping pills more often than their respective opposite 
    sex.  This may have some affect on why men are more successful.
    
    -I *knew* all those psych classes would pay off someday!

                      Carol

    Women also choose different environments in which to attempt suicide.
    Neatness, or at least a place that's easy to clean seems to be a
    factor with women.   Very few women attempt to blow their brains
    out in the living room, the bathroom is a  much more typical place.
    
    The things your mind chooses to keep around!
    
     
   
    

    Women also have a tendency to use methods that won't screw them
    up physically...like blowing there heads off.  They will take the
    pills, slit their wrists, etc, mostly something that can be hidden
    at the funeral with make-up.  They want to still look 'pretty' when 
    they leave this world.  Sic.
               
    My Dad's best friend had alot of health problems, back and alcohol,
    and shot himself in the bathtub on his wife's birthday.  How
    considerate, easy cleanup (!) but what a birthday present. (In jest, 
    sorry.) |-( 

    ms kilgore:
    where have you gotten the idea that women are concerned about screwing
    up their physical appearance when killing themselves? is this a
    personal theory or something you've read or heard?
    
    liz

    I have read a number of books and articles in which it is stated
    that, statistically, women choose less - violent? - methods when
    attempting suicide. Whether this is because they really want to
    look pretty in the casket is another question. I do *not* know what
    sources were used for those statistics.
    
    There could be a number of reasons for choosing pills or wrist-slashing
    over guns or jumping off of buildings. It might be convenience
    (everybody has knives, not nearly as many have guns); it might be
    squeamishness (some folks are really horrified at the thought of
    massive physical damage, such that they would prefer drowning to
    decapitation even if the former were a more painful process); and,
    often, it could be that the person doesn't really want to die (pills
    and wrist-slashing are a lot easier to reverse than jumping from the
    40th floor). 
    
    And it could be appearance's sake, too. Someone who envisions his
    or her body being found may choose a less gory method simply to
    spare the discoverers. This may relate more to women who expect
    to be found by family members, but I couldn't back it up with any
    numbers.
    
    While there are undoubtedly some folks who indulge in Tom Sawyer's
    fantasy of attending their own funeral - and who want to look good
    for the occasion - I doubt that it's a primary factor in the selection
    of the suicide method.

    -b

    Er...well, *I* think it's pretty simple: Women, in general,
    choose less violent methods of suicide than men, in general,
    because women are socialized to be less violent than men are
    socialized to be.
    
    There certainly are exceptions - I've heard of women hanging
    themselves, and men taking pills....
    
    --DE
    

Men are pushed more to succeed, even in suicide.

I would have a hard time dealing with attempted suicide.  I would not want to be
made to feel crazy, like I was trying to get attention, etc...

I would use multiple methods to be sure of doing the job.  Sort of like what you
should do with birth control.  Out in the middle of nowhere, no chance to be
found, Take pills, then blow your head off.  In the winter, you get the chance
of dying of exposure too. 

One thing to do with someone who is suicidal is ask them how they plan to do it.
That way, if they disappear, you have some chance of finding them before it is
too late.

Jim. 

    jim,
    interesting point about the pressures put on men (though i, too,
    remember expectations that i at least be perfect)...
    
    yes, it is important to take it seriously when someone tells you
    they plan to kill themselves.

	Perhaps men have more options before they attempt
	suicide.  In other words, suicide for them is the last
	resort, where maybe for women it's one of their first
	options.  Maybe a suicide attempt as a cry for help is
	seen by women as more feasible.  Conjecture, conjecture.

	It is important to listen to those who speak of suicide.
	It is also important not to feel guilty when someone does
	commit suicide.  There are not always signs, and often
	there was nothing you could do.  Unfortunately some people
	have used suicide threats to control a relationship.  Sometimes
	all you can do is suggest conseling and give them a number
	to call.  

	...Karen

    From an article about Doris Doerrie, German film director
    (Boston Globe, Friday 22-jan-1988)
    
    ...
    	"'Me and Him' [the film Doerrie is currently working on] in
    some ways recalls Doerrie's 1986 internation hit, 'Men', made in
    her native Germany.  Both poke gentle fun at male activity and
    preoccupations.  'Men's self-esteem comes from their position in
    society.  Here, they're much more concerned with the notion of success.
    They tend to blame themselves, not the system, if they fail to
    achieve it,'  Doerrie says.  'If they're not working, they don't
    know who they are.  A friend of mine, a Hungarian filmmaker killed
    himself because he couldn't get his next film off the ground.  He
    had a wife and four kids.  His suicide was so _selfish_.  I cannot
    imagine any woman killing herself if her professional career collapsed.
    Women get depressed.  But they take Valium.  They keep going longer.'"
    ...
    
    -------------
    I don't know what to make of this, but it's food for thought.

    re: .9
    
    While working towards my A.A. in Criminal Justice, suicide was
    a subject that came up quite a bit because as a law officer you 
    need to be able to 'handle' these situations.  And it was pointed 
    out in more than one book plus many pictures we viewed, that women 
    (most often) will use a less violent means and a less disfiguring 
    way of killing themselves.
    
    My sister attempted suicide, slashed her wrists and used pills even
    though other means were available to her.  The other means were
    also ways that probably would have killed her instead of allowing
    her to have another chance at life.  Her reasons for suicide?  She
    didn't feel she was a success in life...she saw us, her siblings,
    happy in our jobs and felt her job as a waitress was not as valuable
    as ours (a delivery person, a UPS truck loader, and a locksmith?...
    not prestigious (sp?) positions in our community) but she felt every-
    one (parents included) looked down at her because she was a 'lowly'
    waitress.  Luckily she has taken a turn for the better, got out
    of the downward slide in life and is happy doing what she is doing,
    still waitressing, is a mother and is currently in a successful
    relationship.  The attempt took place 11 years ago.
                                                
    My brother-in-aw took his life via carbon monoxide... suicide touches
    us in many ways.  Thru family, friends, acquaintances, people at
    work, etc.
    
    Sorry to ramble...I'll admit, I'm not an authority on this subject
    but who is?  We can only gather information left by very distraught
    persons who were so desperate to take their lives...and so very
    precious, life is.