Conference turris::womannotes-v1

        Most everyone, to some extent, makes deliberate attempts
        to change others, for all sorts of reasons.  Both professional
        and personal.
        
        If an engineer on my project persists in writing code & comments
        in all upper case, I'll make an effort to alter that behavior
        to my satisfaction... I've done similarly to noters.  I've
        tried to "change" those people.  I'm sure it was, in most
        cases, a surprize to them.
        
        Despite your disclaimer at the bottom, the note is a clear
        reference to the stereotype of a woman "latching onto a man
        with the intent of changing him to her tastes".  While your
        question itself is reasonable, the wording (specifically
        the association with said stereotype) is bound to make it
        objectionable to a lot of readers.  You could have phrased
        it a *lot* better.
        
        	/dave

    I feel it bubbling below the surface...
    The stereotype from the deep.
    It raises its ugly head...
    
    sigh. I have never wanted to change any human to fit my specifications.
    I have often tried to encourage others to change themselves if they
    weren't happy with something about themselves (this trait made me
    "suite mother" at college [spoken warmly; watch it! :-)]). I know
    someone who had a very painful realationship, during which she tried
    to help her SO change in a way he specifically asked her to help
    him change.
    
    All this makes this a difficult topic for me to think about. My
    SO has specifically asked me to point out certain bad habits to
    him, so he will stop. On the one hand, I don't mind. I notice them,
    he doesn't. He wants to stop them. I agree its a positive thing
    to stop them, though I don't REALLY care. But, oh my gosh, I'm Nagging
    (horrors!)! I'm imposing my will on another. All the terrible things
    I learned good girls don't do (believe it or not) I'm doing (well,
    maybe not ALL :-)).
    
    So, up until .0 said "that need to change to make you happy" I thought,
    maybe this topic will give me a place to work through this bind.
    And maybe it still will.
    	Mez

    I've thought about this one a lot, and over the years have unlearned
    lots of bad habits along these lines...
    
    I try to avoid criticizing the "small" things -- the things that
    don't affect me/us -- such as what my SO chooses to wear or how
    he washes the dishes (my mother actually used to carp about the
    way my step-father washed dishes and ended up doing them herself).

    On the other hand, there are a few "imperfections" that my SO has 
    that really do affect our relationship. We both want these issues 
    to be resolved (I did ask). And I feel that not fixing the problems
    (or not trying) could seriously harm our marriage. It's hard to 
    find the delicate balance between nagging and giving appropriate 
    help. However, I don't feel that I'm erring in asking him to work
    on these things.
   
    Liz

    I don't think I have ever tried to change the man in my life, except
    my soon-to-be ex-spouse, and only when he changed for the worse.
    I did try to get him to change, but by only suggesting that he go
    to some sort of counseling - when he refused to do that, and refused
    to change some AWFUL habits he was picking up (IE not knowing where
    the kids where when I came home from work at 7:30 or 8pm)... then
    I left, becuase it was clear he was no longer the man for me or
    our girls... yes, I tried to change him, and outright told him he
    needed to change, but I felt at that point in time (married 11 years),
    I had some investment that allowed it.
    
    Now if I can only convince my current SO that its okay to send me
    flowers :-)....
    
    Gale

                   My over-whelming tendency (when it comes to
             men who have qualities that I consider serious enough
             to warrant "change") is to refrain from becoming
             seriously involved with them in the first place.
    
                   Sure, some things don't surface til later --
             but it seems all too easy to get involved with folks
             (and then try to reconfig after the person has been
             secured.)  For me, that is the absolute *LAST* thing
             I feel like doing (trying to change ANYbody else!)
    
                   As for me, I try to change *MYSELF* constantly
             (work on little internal self-improvements on an on-
             going basis.)  It's a hobby, like tinkering with a
             Rubik's Cube.  It's not that I don't like myself --
             I just think that *ANYONE* can stand improvement (cuz
             no one is perfect.)
    
                   HOWEVER -- it is mostly a personal thing.  I'd
             never *dream* of asking someone to make me change --
             or even help me to change.  And I'd resent anyone hand-
             ing me a list of improvements that *I* should make on
             myself.  (I could see two people sitting down and figur-
             ing what the potential problems might be, then seeing
             what sort of adjustments could be made by both parties.)
    
                   When people are close to me, I often clue them in
             on what sort of thing I'm working on (internally) but
             it's not an invitation for the person to analyze me or
             critique my psyche.  If I wanted full-time analysis, I'd
             move into a mental hospital.  (I don't need it in a rela-
             tionship!)
    
                   Most of my own changes involve new ways to get
             my personal life organized (I rearrange my junk at home
             constantly, I find better ways to keep my personal accounts,
             etc.)  One of my REALlY BIG things right now is re-learning
             the piano.  I had 7 years of classical lessons and let
             it slip.  (I'm determined to get it back -- just bought
             a beautiful new piano last week.)

                   It's one thing to say "Accept me for who *I* want
             to be."  But if someone is using the idea of "Accept me
             for who I am" (but really means "I have a whole bunch of
             really nasty faults but I refuse to ever try to do any-
             thing about them") -- then no thanks.  It's not my job
             to change anyone but myself.  
    
                   My solution would be to pass on the relationship
             entirely.

                                                      Suzanne...

    It is not so much changing a person (be it male or female), but
    rather having the person recognize and acknowledge faults which when
    changed may make the person care more about themselves.  In the
    best of all cases, everyone wins:  They feel great, and you feel
    good about seeing them happier.  If the change is conditional (you
    change because it will make ME happy, then the basic premise is
    wrong.   Changing another person just for your own satisfaction
    is just plain selfish in my book.   I've tried to ask myself the
    question, "Do you wnat to change a person so they will be better
    or so your will be better?" and if the answer comes up as ME first
    then, I go back and do some serious thinking.  
    
    I see change as a necessary requirement for growth and if someone
    can help me along (someone who cares enough) then I look at that
    as a blessing not an insult.
    Also, I agree with .1 - sounds like a little sexist to me!  But
    then on the other hand, you might be the kind of person who is very
    resistant to change no matter who it may be.
    

            RE: .8
    
                   I'm not waiting for Mr. Perfect (cuz I sure
             as *heck* know that I'm not Ms. Perfect) -- all I
             want is a person whose behavior lies within reason-
             able boundaries (and is flexible enough to work on
             things if it endangers the relationship.)
    
                   *I'm* more than definitely willing to work on
             a troubled relationship -- but I've been in situations
             where the man in question said "If you don't like it,
             you know what you can do about it" (meaning that I had
             two choices:  I could stay in an intolerable situation
             or move on to a life without those particular hassles.)
    
                   No one can change another person -- working out problems
             to a mutual satisfaction is desirable (but not always
             possible.)
    
                   I'm very stubborn about wanting to be myself, but
             I'm not inflexible (and I DON'T claim that what I am is
             already as good as it's ever gonna get, so the man had
             *better* be happy with it.)  I just want to decide for myself
             who I am (and I'm my own most critical judge.)
    
                   When a man says to me, "I'm the way I am and I've
             been this way for 'n' years, so just accept me as I am"
             -- it sounds to me like *JUST MAYBE* he is unwilling to
             make any mutual adjustments in the relationship.  *MAYBE*
             he is saying, "*YOU* can make the adjustments for our
             happiness ON YOUR OWN, cuz *I'm* not budging an inch!!!"

                   I'm not generalizing to say that *ALL* or *MOST*
             men think this way (or that the author of .0 thinks this
             way.)  I'm just saying I would question the motives of
             the individual potential-SO (and if he happened to have
             some whopping faults that I disliked, I would back away.)
    
                   People don't just wake up one morning with a whole
             mess of serious faults.  We see our potential SO's through
             rose-colored glasses (often) and OVERLOOK the faults because
             we WANT to be in love.  All I'm saying is that I try to
             be more realistic about individuals (and don't jump into
             bad situations thinking "Oh well, I'll cure him of *THAT*
             habit pretty quick!!")  It doesn't work (and I wouldn't
             care to do it even if it *COULD* work.)

                                                      Suzanne...

    I've been accused of blackmail, here, but I don't look at it this
    way ...
    
    If there is a particularly nasty personal behavior that I cannot
    tolerate in a relationship that I want to maintain, I don't try
    to change it (assuming I'm dealing with an *adult*), but I will
    "leave the room" literally and figuratively.  Example: some friends
    who are hosting a party include illegal drugs as part of the 
    refreshments.  I'm definitely not going to jump all over them for
    doing what they have chosen, so I make myself scarce, to the point
    of leaving the party.
        
    But I do believe that in a relationship, what the involved parties
    feel about each other's behavior has to influence it.  The way that
    works best for me is to tell the other person how I feel about his
    behavior, without criticizing him personally.  Then both parties
    have a decision to make -- is the negative behavior something I
    can live without if it never changes or do I end the relationship
    (me) -- is this behavior something *I* want to change or is it such
    a part of myself that I can't/don't want to change it to preserve
    the relationship (the other person).

    I honestly believe that you can't change someone else, but you
    certainly can change yourself.  If you value the relationship, and
    if YOU are willing to change, it might work.  It has to come from
    within.
    
    I agree with .10.
    

    
    I don't believe one can change another person.  I have foolishly
    tried in past relationships, always met with dismal failure and
    finally decided that it can't be done. People can only change
    themselves.  
    
    alison
     

    Re: .12
    
    I agree 100% - people can only change themselves.  But they'll only
    do it if they want to, and they'll only want to if they know that
    their current behavior bothers you.  If you don't tell them, then
    nothing changes, you get frustrated and then give up because
    "it can't be done".
    
    A lesson for the future could be to understand that your partner
    may be perfectly willing to change if you would only let him or
    her know about it.
    					Steve

                We may be getting a bit bogged down here with a
           few conflicting ideas.  
    
                When I hear the words "Do you try to change a man?"
           -- the thought that comes to mind is marrying a man that
           wasn't QUITE what I wanted, and reconfiguring him after
           the fact into what I wanted in the first place.  (That's
           not a good thing to do, in my book.)
    
                The idea of wanting someone to change in SMALL ways
           (in order to make for a smoother relationship) is not the
           same thing (and should not be a problem.)
    
                Here's an example of those two things (from the
           perspective of a husband trying to change *ME* -- what
           would be OK and not OK):
    
                Any man that marries me is going to know that I'm
           very committed to Digital (and my career.)  Let's say
           that I married someone, then after the wedding he told
           me that what he had REALLY wanted was a "stay at home"
           wife (and tried to force me to totally give up my career
           because of the relationship.)  
    
                My reaction would be "Wait a minute.  You knew before
           we got married that I was very committed to Digital.  If
           you didn't like it, then you should have told me before
           we got married.  Now that we *are* married, I don't want
           you to try to change who I am.  I'm a career Digital
           employee and don't want to have to give that up in order
           to have a marriage."  (Maybe not all women would feel this
           way, but I certainly do!!)  Being a Digital engineer is
           part of "who I am and who I choose to be" -- I would resent
           someone trying to change that for me.
    
                On the other hand, if he liked me fine just the way
           I was (except for a few annoying habits), no problem.  For
           example, I tend to play my music at a very high volume in
           my house.  That's *NOT* part of "who I am" (I just do it
           because I like to do it.)  If my husband told me that he
           can't stand loud music, no problem at all (I could stop
           that habit on a dime -- as long as I knew that it bothered
           him, like Steve said.)  
    
                I often do things at the last minute at home -- if he
           told me that it bothered him, no problem.  I'd find out a
           few specifics and would immediately resolve to do them
           earlier.
    
                If my husband didn't like any of the things I like
           to cook, no problem.  We'd sit down and find out what he
           *does* like, and work it out.
    
                As for the career problem, I would think that it would
           be smarter to have avoided a committed relationship to me
           if he was dead certain that he wanted a non-working wife
           (rather than try to change me after the fact.)

                I'm not talking *AT ALL* about looking for PERFECTION
           in someone.  I wouldn't marry a construction worker and try
           to turn him into a programmer (because that's what I wish
           I had married in the first place.)  But if he (for example)
           tracked mud on my carpet every day of his life, we'd have
           some words about it.  It wouldn't *CHANGE* the man himself
           (just a bad habit.)  That shouldn't be a problem.
    
                (Did not mean to make "construction worker" into a
           stereotype of a person who would mess carpets -- just using
           arbitrary examples.)
    
                The difference between trying to change THE PERSON
           and trying to adjust BEHAVIOR is an important one!  Not
           that a person has the power to do EITHER if the other is
           not willing, of course.  But whereas the first example
           would be a big problem for many people, the second should
           *NOT* be a serious problem for many people.

                                                       Suzanne...

    But Suzanne, would you marry a construction worker, and try to change
    him into a househusband :-)? You know, I *could* use someone stay
    at home and take care of the house....
    	Mez
    

        RE:  .15
    
                  Seriously, I'd have absolutely NO problem with
            a househusband (if that's what he really wanted!)  I'd
            like to have a couple more kids -- if I married someone
            who wanted to stay home with them for several years (or
            forever), it would be fine (as long as it made HIM happy
            and fulfilled!)
    
                  'Course, I'd have to buy my food wholesale (my
            "little" 6'2" 16 year old son eats enough for 2 or 3
            men all by himself!)  :-)  For a guy who is that tall
            (and still growing!) and only weighs 170 lbs, I sure
            don't know where the food goes.  It's like maintaining
            a young horse (he sort of "grazes" in the kitchen and
            everything resembling food disappears...)  :-)  :-)
    
                                                    Suzanne...

    I just thought of an old saying I heard a long time ago, about a
    who woman falls in love with a man and marries him and then spends the
    rest of her time trying to change him, and then when he finally
    does change, she asks him whatever happenend to that nice man I
    married.  
    
    When I fall in love with someone I HOPE he never changes.  

>   When I fall in love with someone I HOPE he never changes.  
        
        This is partly facetious, since I'm not sure it's exactly what
        the author meant... but still, perhaps it's a useful point to
        inject... 
        
        Everyone changes, continuously.  To try to prevent someone from
        changing is every bit as bad (and really the same) as trying to
        force changes on them.  With a good relationship, and
        communication, your changes will mostly be compatible, and the
        end result will be at least as good as what you started with...
        but it'll never be the same. 
        
        It's like wishing a cat would stay a cute playful fluffy little
        kitten for the rest of your life... it's no more realistic than
        wishing the cat were a dog.  In either case, you'll both end up
        unhappy. 
        
        	/dave

    I think you are going to the nnth degree with this.
    
    What I meant is that the basic characteristics that I fell in love
    with never change - I never said anything about growing and learning!
    I thought that was obvious. 

>>   When I fall in love with someone I HOPE he never changes.  
>       
>       This is partly facetious, since I'm not sure it's exactly what
>       the author meant... but still, perhaps it's a useful point to
>       inject... 
        
        .20: doesn't that make it clear enough?  I'm just saying
        something I think is relevant... your offhand comment was
        only responsible for inspiring the concept.
        
        	/dave

    re: 21
    Maybe you should re-read the original note - 162.0, especially the
    first four paragraphs.  My reply was directed to the author's
    questions.
    

RE .1, .19, .21

   It would appear that you have decided to read something into not
   only the base note, but others as well. Your accusation of the
   note as being a stereotype of women is unfounded  . The question
   asks "DO YOU TRY to change...." It only goes on to ask" WHAT" if
   the answer to the original question is yes. You accuse me of
   stereotyping that all women are out there "latching on to a man
   to change him." This is not so, the note asked a legitimate question,
   based on the fact that the man is already in this persons life.
   It states this right in the header "DO YOU TRY to change THE MAN 
   IN YOUR LIFE ??"

   For a person that is making actuations about me, your own statements
   would lead a person to feel that you generalize about a lot.

> " Most everyone, to some extent , makes deliberate attempt to 
>    change others, for all sorts of reasons..."

 Not necessarily, I for one find it a lot easier to be around
 people who like my company rather than attempt to change the 
 ones who dont . Then we come to,

> "Ill make an effort to alter that behavior to my satisfaction ...
>   I've tried to change those people . Iam sure it was in most cases,
>   a surprise to most people. "  

Iam sure it was a surprise, it would appear that you feel many people need
to change to your way of doing things. This would lead one to believe 
that you stereotype and generalize people . It would seem that the majority
of responders to the note dont share your thoughts. That they took the
question in the manner that it was entered. To have people think about
the subject and respond. Considering your response remarks to me and to 
others on this note I would say you have a tendency to read things into
a persons words that are not there.

It really disturbs me that a man must find something to point out
as a problem on a note entered by another man in this conference.
I have found that the women in this conference are bright, intelligent,
and very versed on the world. They dont need a man to come to their
"rescue" on any subject. Iam quite sure that when they find something
objectionial they will come back at the author on their own. I say let
them be the judge of the question or subject its their conference.
 
As far as the question itself it is a legitimate one to pose. As any
two people get together its the things that they like about each other
that brings them together into a relationship. Its only after an amount
of time together that the "bad habits" , problems, and non fofillment
of needs begin to show. At this point one needs to answer the question 
of do I do something about it and how is it handled.

This subject was bound to come up sooner or latter. After re reading 
entries,               115  Ladies wish list
                       116  What we like 
                       119  Special things from a man
                       130  Anger towards men

It begins to become apparent that there is a major dissatisfaction with
the attitudes, actions, and mannerisms of men by a lot of women. I dont
look at those notes as a "bitch session" but as an indicator that some 
things need to change. This is what the note was all about. Are the 
women of this conference trying to change things or are they satisfied 
with the way things are. More important, how those changes are taking 
place, all people change as they grow, its how you handle the problems
along the way that makes the difference.

As Suzanne said the attitude of "I'll cure him/her of that real quick"
is not going to work. That in a relationship people need to talk problems
over and compromise with each other on changes to make things work.
From must of the responses its plain to see that this is the approach
many are taking. Again to quote Suzanne who said it best, " accept
me for who I want to *BE* " rather than who and what I am. And on that
note shall we continue the discussion.

                          Bob B   
    

    
    I agree with .14  -<changing a PERSON vs making adjustments in
    BEHAVIOR>- in that most of the "changes" that one partner would like to
    make in the other (male or female) pertain not to the person but to the
    behavior of that person.
    
    There are certainly behaviors that my SO has that I would like
    to change (...if only I could get him to like dancing...) and that
    I occassionally point out to him and we discuss. But, the reverse
    is also true, there are plenty of things that I do that he would
    love to change (...like not getting asked about going dancing...)
    which we talk about. On both sides, some things do change and some
    things don't, and probably never will.
    
    Yes, some times this bothers me - both from the aspect of not getting
    the changes I would like to see, but also that I am trying to make
    the changes at all. I think working together on the "changes" is
    what a healthy relationship is all about. Hopefully I will always
    change and grow and my SO will too. Sometimes that growth will be
    in paths that don't fit into the niche we have made and it will
    be uncomfortable. But the give and take - to me, anyway - is a
    responsibility of the relation.
    
    But, as for the question - do we try to make changes??? - of course. I
    think that's human nature! How many of you can walk by a window
    reflection or a mirror and not try to "change" something in ourselves.
    So what do you think would happen if we had to "live with" ourselves.
    We would probably try to change us, too. 
    
    				janet b.

    So far we've talked about "little" problems -- things like whether
    to go dancing. What about some more "serious" issues. What if you
    find yourself in one of the following situations:
    	o  you realize your partner is an alcoholic
    	o  your partner is suddenly impotent
        o  your partner is diagnosed with cancer and, even though
           there's hope, decides to do nothing about it.

    Some people may be able to detect these tendencies ahead of time
    and not get involved in the first place. But if you don't have that
    kind of foresight, and your relationship is a serious one, these
    issues are going to affect both people and the relationship. In
    other words, there's a subtle place where the "problem" is no longer
    in the domain of one person, but becomes the province of both people.

    So what do you do?  Accept things the way they are? Talk to your
    partner? Get help for yourself (learn better behavior patterns and
    possibly acceptance)? Talk to your partner about getting help (and
    try to convince him/her to do it)? Walk out? In these situations, 
    at what point is the person getting changed as opposed to the behavior?
    
    
    Liz

   re .22

   >Your accusation of the note as being a stereotype of women is
   >unfounded.
    
    I can't speak for /dave, but I thought it was a "stereotype" because
    you entered the question here rather than in HUMAN_RELATIONS.  But
    it is a topic that's generated some good discussion...
    
    	-Ellen

        .22: I already explained that my comments were a tangent
        inspired by the words you used, and had nothing directly
        to do with what you said.  What more do you want?  If you
        must persue the discussion, please do so by mail.
        
        .23: You misinterpret me.  Deliberately?  First off, I said the
        question is legitimate... it's the phrasing, with its
        *implication* that women scheme to change men and omitting the
        mention that not *only* women scheme to change *men*. I wasn't
        even flaming, but merely pointing out that the phrasing of the
        question asked for flames.  I dunno whether nobody else flamed
        simply because I'd mentioned it first, or whether it didn't
        bother anyone... and neither do you.  It doesn't matter, either.
        
        I also answered your question for my experience... it's
        interesting---considering your flames regarding my comments
        on your note---that you choose to flame me for doing so.
        Or didn't you really want an honest answer?  Or, and I hesitate
        to even mention this, are you saying that you really *did*
        only want input from women scheming to change "their men"?
        
        	/dave

    
    Somewhere along the way, in my life, I got the idea that it's wrong
    to try to change a person.  (And, also the idea that you really
    can't change a person so it will only create trouble ultimately
    if you try.)
    
    But, I think there are two different levels of changing being
    discussed.  Similar to what Suzanne said in regard to her career,
    I think it is unfair to marry someone with the idea that you can
    change a certain preference of theirs that you don't like later
    on.  An example would be marrying someone who hated kids and never
    wanted any with the idea that in a few years you'd get them to change
    their mind and have a baby anyway.  If you know there is some basic
    issue such as children or pets or lifestyle that you disagree on,
    don't kid yourself into thinking you can change them after marriage,
    or that you have a *right* to.  They may be perfectly happy thinking
    the way they do.
    
    However, if I were involved with someone who suddenly couldn't pay
    their bills because they were spending all their money on cocaine,
    I don't think it would be wrong for me to talk to them about it
    and urge them to seek counseling in order to change.
    
    As far as change as part of growth as the years go by, that just
    happens, and can't really be predicted.  Sometimes it can be positive
    for the relationship and sometimes not.
    
    I guess I basically believe that, outside of people who really *need*
    help for a serious problem, people should mind their own business
    and not go meddling in other people's lives trying to change them
    to some supposedly ideal specifications.
    
    Lorna
    

Iam really not trying to make a go round out of this but it would
seem you have missed some important points. I really disagree with
you that the phrasing of the subject is either stereotyping nor
implying that women "scheme" to change men. Had the "phrasing" gone 
*how do you try... or what do you do to to change your man once you've 
got him, then I could see your point. But it didn't, and the way the 
subject was stated was clear enough that the majority of readers 
DID NOT interpret it in the same manner as you.

 The reason I wrote .23 was to clarify to you and anyone else that
 the subject was NOT written with any underlying implications behind
the train of though. My responses directed to you were to answer your
actuations of the my phrasing of the subject as having "sexist" overtones.
My contention is that you have a tendency to read into something thats
not there in the text. My proof of that, is your responses to not only my
base note and .23, but the response from Dotti D. 

One last key point you missed, is that the bottom line in .0 said
"BTW I know that men do this too, BUT IAM LOOKING FOR A FEMALE 
 PROSPECTIVE ON THIS." Had I wished for answers on this subject 
from both a female and male prospective, I would have put it in 
HR or a dual entry in MENNOTES. I entered the subject here because 
I wanted to find out what the women of this conference thoughts 
were on the subject. And oh yes BTW, I was looking for honest answers,
but about the subject matter which was the SO in your life, not the 
world in general.

The bottom lone is that that I considered your actuation from .1 and
 the reference "... you saying that you really *did* only want input
 from women scheming to change "their men ."from .27 as a cheep shot
 to my integrity and the intelligence of the women of this conference.
Should you wish to continue this discussion of "differences" please 
do so off this line via mail or the phone, I see no sense in turning
this note into a battleground.

                                Bob B
    

    .28
    
    That's what I was trying to say.  Thanks for putting all the right
    words around it.
    
    alison
    

  Can you separate the person from her/his behaviour?  I think what I
  heard a lot of people say was they might care for a person exactly the way
  she/he is, but they *might* not like certain aspects of their behaviour.
  Like Suzanne's example of the construction worker that she might like
  as a person, but not like his behaviour of tracking mud all over the
  house.  (I'm also not stereotyping, just borrowing an example).
  
  Obviously you can't change a person, unless you happen to be a plastic
  surgeon :^), and you can't ask a person to change himself.  You also
  can't change a person's behaviour, but you can ask a person to change
  his behaviour to better the relationship.  The person can certainly
  refuse for whatever reason and you then have the choice of not deepening
  the relationship or leaving it altogether.  (This is dependent upon
  the behaviour change requested -- someone who refuses to modify abusive 
  behaviour is not worth staying in a relationship for...).

  I was in a slightly different situation.  I kept trying to modify myself
  (how can you accomplish that?) for my husband in hopes that he would
  modify his abusive behaviour.  Guess what?  I was only justifying his
  behaviour in his eyes.  At some point, I first requested then demanded
  he modify his abusive behaviour.  Of course he told me *he* didn't have
  any problems, I did.  To make a long story short, I did leave the
  relationship.  I promised myself (and I have stuck to it) that I would
  never ever try to modify myself to fit someone else's (perfect) image
  again.  I am not averse to discussing aspects of my behaviour that might
  be irritating to a potential SO, or discussing aspects of his behaviour
  that might be irritating to me.  I almost dream of such a relationship
  where such things can be discussed in an adult fashion!  (sigh)
  
  
  							Terza
  
  
  

    i recently asked someone to make a radical change,when it did not
    work out he saidthat he could not change for me,but only for himself.
    he was right of course. the last think he said to me before he left
    was that i should change...
    
    			kelly
    

    
    I think that it is not possible to change someone (that is something
    one can do only for oneself) but that it is possible to set limits
    on what *behavior* is acceptable.
    
    When I first started dating my husband (a very enlightened man,
    and probably more of a feminist than I am), I had some behavioral
    charactaristics that annoyed him extremely.  He stated quite clearly
    that I was free to behave as I wished, but I could *expect* that
    he would not be present during times when I was exhibiting behavioral
    characteristics he found unacceptable.  And he followed thru on
    this.  After a while (and some time with my therapist), I learned that 
    *I* didn't like those particular facets of my behavior, either,
    and I changed them.  For me, not him.
    
    I have responded in kind when I have found his behavior unacceptable.
    The result: for the most part we have worked out and modified behaviors
    that have been destructive to our relationship.  A committed
    relationship implies (to me) a willingness to grow together, and
    to work on problems that inevitably occur.  No, it is not realistic
    to expect that you can change your chosen partner.  It is realistic
    to expect to work out conflicts together, and to have the option
    of removing oneself from the presence of *anyone* (SO, spouse, child,
    coworker, friend) whose behavior is unacceptable to you *at any
    time that behavior is being exhibited*.  I love my husband and my
    friends; I do not always like everything they do.  This doesn't
    change my love for them in the least.
    
    Rita
    
    

    re.33  Wonderful, absolutely wonderful.
    
    My good wishes to you.
    
    :-)

    I think it was Einstein who said something like "When
    two people marry, she expects him to change, and he expects
    her to remain the same. Naturally, they are both disappointed."
    

    Re .35
>    I think it was Einstein who said something like "When
>    two people marry, she expects him to change, and he expects
>    her to remain the same. Naturally, they are both disappointed."
     
    Boy, did that strike a chord in me.  That's exactly the way our
    lives have turned out.  Interesting.
    
    Spence

    Heres something I read today that I want to share with you but I
    didn't know where to put it.  I think this place is most appropriate.
    Feel free to extract this and spread the word around.  It is a very
    nice piece of writing.
    
    Cathy
    
                  DIFFERENT DRUMS AND DIFFERENT DRUMMERS
		    by David Kiersey & Marilyn Bates
                  
If I do not want what you want, please try not to tell me that my want is 
wrong.

Or if I believe other than you, at least pause before you correct my view.

Or if my emotion is less than yours, or more, given the same circumstances, 
try not to ask me to feel more strongly or weakly.

Or yet if I act, or fail to act, in the manner of your design for action, 
let me be.

I do not, for the moment at leas, ask you to understand me.  That will 
come only when you are willing to give up changing me into a copy of you.

I may be your spouse, your parent, your offspring, your friend, or your 
colleague.  If you will allow me any of my own wants, or emotions, or 
beliefs, or actions, then you open yourself, so that some day these ways of 
mine might not seem so wrong, and might finally appear to you as 
right-for-me.  To put up with me is the first step to understanding me. Not 
that you embrace my ways as right for you, but that you are no longer 
irritated or disappointed with me for my seeming waywardness.  And in 
understanding me you might come to prize my differences from you, and, far 
from seeking to change me, preserve and even nurture those differences.
         

    
    Very nice, indeed, Cathy.  Thank you for sharing this with us! 
    I'm going to share it with several of my friends.....and my SO!
    
    Myra
    

    I liked that, too.
    
    By the way, I asked a friend, "Do you try to change the man in your
    life?"
    
    My friend said, "yeah, I try to get a new one every month or so...".
    
    (snickers...)
    
    Rita
    

    I like the ideas, but the writing is pretty convoluted.  I'd like
    to see the same piece rewritten in "cleaner" prose.

    re .40  I know what you mean.  But, this piece of information was
    handed to me by my Personal Consultant and it was used in a
    presentation.  That's why it appears the way it does.
    
    As for the meaning, it hits the spot.  
    
    Thanks for reading, everyone.  Pass it along.  I know one person
    who is going to get a copy and that's my father.  He really could
    use a lesson.  :-{

    
    	This topic reminds me of a story I heard.
    
    	Two woman overheard talking about their men.
    
    	1st woman: It's taking me close to 20 years, but I've
    		atlast made several changes in my husband.
    
    	2nd woman: Then why do you look so sad?
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    	1st woman: Because he's just not the same man I married!!