| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 155.1 | | MTV::HENDRICKS | Holly | Wed Dec 24 1986 14:06 | 17 |
| I was seven, and it was a hot summer day, and I took off my shirt.
That hadn't caused any problem when I was six, but suddenly, and
for no apparent reason, my mother insisted I wear a shirt.
I kept pointing out with disgust that none of the neighborhood boys
were, and my mother was deaf to that.
I remember being totally disgusted.
On the other hand, I spent my childhood and adolescence feeling
vastly superior to boys. I thought of them as loud, boring animals
(sorry guys!). I couldn't imagine wanting to share in their pastimes,
conversations, or activities. I often devoted a fair amount of
church time to thanking God that I was a girl! How ironic...
And in college, the women had a 10 pm dorm curfew, while the guys
had no curfew. <sigh...>
|
| 155.2 | I am not alone??! | HPSCAD::TWEXLER | | Wed Dec 24 1986 14:26 | 32 |
| 0. I'm sorry I don't know your name, but I was just thinking that
we should have a topic title something like 'How I became a
feminist' then I went to look at womannotes and there was your
entry!!!
When I was four years old, I came home from kindergarten and told
my mom that I wanted to be a nurse. "A nurse?" she asked. "Why
do you want to be a nurse?" I told her that I didn't really want
to be a nurse. I had really wanted to be a doctor, but all the
boys told me that only men could be doctors. When mom told me
that women could be doctors too, I remember my feeling of outrage.
I remember thinking (very indignantly as though someone had pulled
a particularly nasty practical joke on me) that noone was going
to fool me like that again. Not ever.
My significant other thinks that maybe I had a genetic tendency
(as in nature vs nurture) to be a feminist (which is another reason
that I really liked the base entry--I am not alone!!!). After
all, he said, how many 4 year olds would look at the issue like
that? It is not a 'genetic' or personality trait. It is simply
that as a child, I saw clearly, unbiased by society, and I knew
descrimination when I saw it.
Now, when I meet descrimination, I question myself(!) and sometimes
not the descrimination!!! Did I really see that (was he really
talking to my breasts)?
To entry 0: Thank you!
Tamar
|
| 155.3 | An early support group | SUPER::MATTHEWS | Don't panic | Wed Dec 24 1986 15:51 | 5 |
| When I was in sixth grade, we girls got fed up with having to wear
skirts in cold weather, so we circulated a petition to be allowed
to wear pants. It worked!
Val
|
| 155.4 | About certain individuals in NOTES (do you know who you are?) | NEXUS::CONLON | Persistent dreamer... | Sun Dec 28 1986 17:17 | 57 |
| This may or may not be a problem for anyone
else, but I find myself being extremely bothered
by sexist remarks (made MOSTLY by some men against
women) in NOTESFILES.
Granted, there are *more* men in notes who are
NOT sexist, but it doesn't make me feel a whole lot
better when I open a file and see some guy ranting
and raving about women (using absurd sexual stereo-
typing and negative generalizations about women.)
The fact that it's obvious that these guys are being
idiots doesn't help.
Not *ONE* of these people has the guts to make
racist comments or ethnic slurs (I guess women make
more acceptable targets.) They know they can get
away with it.
Since "we" (meaning readers, writers, moderators,
and DEC management) are letting these people continue
to make blatantly sexist remarks in notesfiles that
are accessible to *ALL* DEC employees -- what does that
say about us (and DEC in general)?
All I can say is -- thank God these notes are *NOT*
accessible to our customers and competitors (because I
for one would be mortified if they could see some of the
ways our own employees openly denigrate fellow employees
who happen to be of the same group: women.)
Never in my life have I been severely bothered by
sexism (until now.) I just expected something quite a bit
better from a corporation like DEC.
For those men who are fond of making these sexist
remarks -- don't tell me not to read NOTES (because it
offends me that these comments even EXIST in notes in
DEC for all DEC employees to see, including new-hires.)
For those men who are faithfully NON-sexist (the vast
majority of male noters, as far as I can tell) -- thank
you for reminding *ME* to see each person as an individual
(and not feel "anger towards men" because of the ones
who write sexist trash in notes.)
There is no reason for there to be animosity between
the sexes (especially among Digital employees.) It would
be nice to think that we could use NOTES to gain a better
understanding of each other (rather than use it to vent
the hostilities that one sex feels for the other or to
perpetuate gross sexual stereotypes.) Maybe it would
be better to remind ourselves of how much we have in
common (as HUMANS and DEC employees) instead of thinking
of each other as some sort of "alien species."
Peace,
Suzanne...
|
| 155.6 | The wrong sex for sax! | CSSE::CICCOLINI | | Mon Dec 29 1986 09:15 | 13 |
| And a friend of mine told me that in her grammar school band, the
boys got first pick at all the brass instruments which bugged her
because she wanted to play the sax.
She had to wait for "them" to pick what they wanted, and naturally
the girls were always left with the triangles and the bells and
stuff!
I'll bet that common sight all through the "formative years" sure
helped boys think girls were "sissy" people, just look what they always
played in the band! And making this rule put the TEACHERS on the boy's
side, reinforcing their feeling of superiority!
|
| 155.7 | Slow on the uptake | HPSCAD::WALL | I see the middle kingdom... | Mon Dec 29 1986 09:29 | 24 |
|
re: .6
Which reminds me of the younger sister of a friend of mine. She
wanted to play tuba, and even though either of her instruments dwarfs
her, she plays tuba in the marching band.
It took a long time for the inequality between the sexes to dawn
on me. I was very withdrawn throughout puberty and adolescence,
and while I knew a lot about what went on in the world I didn't
pay it a whole lot of attention. Also, my mother has always been
a very strong and independent person. I don't know if I'd apply
the term feminist, but she's worked all her life, and she is a very
equal partner in all things with my father.
I suppose it started to get through in high school. High school
is when I was no longer insulated from the rest of my peers. I
come from a dying manufacturing city in Rhode Island, and a lot
of the population is not too enlightened. The males said jump,
and the females asked 'How high?'
It made me sick.
DFW
|
| 155.8 | Sexism in notes conferences | QUARK::LIONEL | Reality is frequently inaccurate | Mon Dec 29 1986 10:11 | 52 |
| Re: .4
As a moderator of a NOTES conference in which one might find sexist
notes from time to time (HUMAN_RELATIONS), I feel I must respond
to some of Suzanne's opinions.
First off, I agree with her completely that sexist notes DO exist,
and are tolerated more so than racist or ethnic slur notes would
be. But what I find is that for every such note that is written
(and it is impossible to prevent such notes from being written),
there are a dozen or more replies attacking the author for being
sexist.
At this point, one must look at what can be done about this:
1. The moderator could delete the note, thus erasing all evidence
that it occurred, and preserving (more or less) the
anonymity of the original author.
2. You can leave the note there and allow others to bash the
sexist slob into the ground. This is what happens most
often today.
3. You can file a harrassment complaint with Personnel, thus
making it very likely that the conference, and many others
like it, will disappear, along with souring the moderators
on ever providing that service again. (And as a moderator
who has gone through this at least once, I am quite serious
that I'd seriously consider closing down HUMAN_RELATIONS
if I ever got caught up in another crisis as happened
before.)
This third possibility is what you invite by suggesting that "I just
expected something quite a bit better from a corporation like DEC."
I assume you weren't serious in proposing that Digital, as a
corporation, condones sexism in notesfiles. Even as I speak, though,
there is a heated discussion between several conference moderators
and representatives of DIS over corporate "control" of notesfiles.
I'm not sure who will win, but I can predict that a lot of conferences
will close (possibly including this one) if DIS decides to exercise
heavy restraint over employee interest conferences.
I do take the issue of sexism in conferences very seriously, and
would invite suggestions (via MAIL - the base note here is not
really relevant to this topic) as to what a moderator (or other
noter) can do about it. I might suggest as a starter that if you
are offended by a note, whether it be sexist or otherwise, that
you should inform the moderator of your displeasure. Sometimes
we miss the effect certain notes have on the VERY wide readership
of some 20,000 or so employees.
Steve
|
| 155.9 | | NEXUS::CONLON | Persistent dreamer... | Mon Dec 29 1986 10:50 | 19 |
| RE: .8
When I said "I expected something better from
DEC" I was referring to DEC in general (all of us)
as a community (although I realize I used the word
corporation.)
It just never ceases to amaze me when I see
someone openly make outrageously sexist remarks
(feeling that it's OK among DECies to write some-
thing like that.) Sure, we flame, and then the
next week another sexist remark pops up by the
same person (often in the same notesfile!)
It goes on and on. If anything causes the
downfall of personal notesfiles, it will be some-
thing like that. What's to be done? I wish I knew.
Suzanne...
|
| 155.10 | sexist is alive and well and living in my Dad | ULTRA::GUGEL | Simplicity is Elegance | Mon Dec 29 1986 11:03 | 13 |
| I'm sure I experienced sexism before I was in my teens, but the
affair that stands out most in my mind is that my father, a house
painter, wanted his sons to work summers with him and not his
daughters. You'd think that your own father could treat you *at
least* as well as the law required! He's still a pretty sexist
type of person and can't see it. It's pretty sad. I remember feeling
mildly angry at him at the time - but I was only 16 and he was my
dad, so I accepted it. Now? I am *OUTRAGED*!!! And I feel betrayed.
How can *my Dad* be a sexist creep just like other men? And of
course, family situations being what they are, there's no way I
can reasonably get this across to him (that I know of).
-Ellen
|
| 155.11 | Early Memories | APEHUB::STHILAIRE | | Mon Dec 29 1986 11:31 | 27 |
| The first sexist incident that I can remember ever really hurting
me was also caused by my father, as in .10. I have one brother,
4 1/2 yrs. older than me, no sisters. One Saturday when I was about
6 yrs. old, I was shopping with my parents and my brother. My father
ran into a man he worked with. The man said hello to my mother,
turned to my brother and said, "And this must be Ronnie! I've heard
so MUCH about you!" Then, he looked at me and said, "And who's
this little girl?" My father looked embarrassed and said, "Oh,
this is my daughter, Lorna" The man said (rather stupidly I now
think), "Oh, my goodness! I never knew you had a daughter, too!
You're always talking about your son!" My brother flashed me a
superior look, and I felt true hatred towards my father, my brother
and all men in general! I had always suspected that my father favored
my brother, HIS SON, but at that moment I knew it.
As I look back, I can recall my father trying to teach my brother
carpentry work, and his frustration when my brother just *couldn't*
do it right. He also repeatedly tried to show him how to play the
violen, and how to garden, but my brother again had no interest.
It never occurred to my father or me at the time, that he could
attempt to share something with his daughter as well.
(Ironically, when I grew up my father and I became close friends
before he died 9 yrs. ago.)
Lorna
|
| 155.12 | | DYO780::AXTELL | Dragon Lady | Mon Dec 29 1986 11:46 | 18 |
|
Like a lot of other wimmin in this file, my first experience with
sexism was in high school. The Milwaukee Public School system and
I went to court over whether a girl should be allowed in a drafting
class. We won, kind of. It settled out of court with some sort
of reasoning on the school boards part of *it not like she's trying
to get into the shop classes or anything*. About the only things
it accomplished (outside of learning to freehand letter) were making
a lot of enemies (teachers and students) and learning to fight the
system.
On the other hand, the year before that I remember fighting with
the gym teacher over whether or not girls had to play tag football
and other *boys* games. At the time it didn't seem proper, but
*old what's her name* didn't buy the excuse. So even though I flunked
gymand never could catch the &*((& football, I learned that wimmin
could exert control over their own lives.
|
| 155.13 | | QUARK::LIONEL | Reality is frequently inaccurate | Mon Dec 29 1986 16:50 | 35 |
| Re: .9
Suzanne, I was going to send you mail on this, but a friend convinced
me it belonged here anyway, even though it strays from the base
topic.
What I read from your note is that you feel that somehow "DECies"
are special, and you should not expect to find sexism among them.
Well, I don't recall seeing a "Are you a sexist?" question on my
application for employment for DEC. It is true that we (at least
the "we" that have access to NOTES) are perhaps better educated
overall than the general population, but otherwise there is a wide
cross-section of backgrounds and personal prejudices among us.
Thus I feel it is unreasonable to expect that noters would be any
less sexist than any other group you care to put together.
This is something we just have to deal with - we can't wish it
away.
Re: .0
I can't recall the FIRST time I was made aware of sexism, but I
can recall the most recent time. A female companion and I were
at a local restaurant for lunch. It was busy, and after we had
waited for a while, a waitress came by and said "I'll be with you
in a minute, Sir."
By adding the "Sir" this woman instantly declared that my companion
was unimportant. I had not done anything to attract her attention
specifically. I felt, and remarked at the time, that if she had
simply left off the "Sir" or perhaps substituted "Folks", then
it would have been just fine.
Steve
|
| 155.14 | so what's the point? | CLT::BUTENHOF | Approachable Systems | Mon Dec 29 1986 17:59 | 26 |
| When this topic started, I tried to remember... what *was* my
first exposure to sexism? I couldn't really pick out anything,
but somehow when I read Steve's reply it just occurred to
me...
When I was a kid, we used to walk several miles to school. In
3rd or 4th grade, I suppose, I used to walk to school with
my "girlfriend" from down the street. Adults thought this
was cute. They also told me I wasn't supposed to let her
walk on the "outside", towards the street... for some
incomprehensible reason, even though we were on a sidewalk
all the way, we were the same age, probably about the same
size, *I* had to be between her and the street.
It certainly wasn't my only or most dramatic exposure to
sexism... but it was the first time I consciously realized that
people were trying to convince me that Kathy was somehow
different from all my other friends.
The "lesson", of course, never caught on... we made a game
of trying to remember to walk "properly", as long as we were
in sight of our parents' houses, though I don't recall how
well we did at it. I do know neither of us ever took it
very seriously...
/dave
|
| 155.15 | What we're talking about here is a "risky business"... | NEXUS::CONLON | Persistent dreamer... | Tue Dec 30 1986 06:33 | 38 |
| RE: .13
Whether or not we *have* sexists as DEC (or
whether or not DEC asks "Are you a sexist?" on
the application) is not at all the point.
The point is that DEC's views on whether or
not we PRACTICE sexism at DEC (or on DEC resources)
has been made MORE than clear to all of us.
Before we shrug off the existence of sexists
in notes with an "Oh well...", we might all be
wise to remember where we are (and on whose resources.)
Notes that are written from the "sexist point of view"
may or may not be considered ways of practicing sexism
at DEC -- but I'd sure be leary of seeing it put to
the test, wouldn't you?
My personal feeling (as an individual) is that
these discussions about sexism are *constructive*
(and that we are possibly reaching a better under-
standing of what sexism means to all of us, so that
hopefully we are helping each other in some small
way and, ultimately, improving the atmosphere in DEC.)
I'm just suggesting that it's not wise to abuse the
privileges we've been given by insulting entire sexes
with wild sexual stereotyping (and unfair generaliza-
tions of persons based on what sex they are.) It's
simply not the smart thing to do in this particular
medium (whether it's supposed to be "in jest" or what-
ever other excuse these persons give for writing these
notes that insult half the DEC population in one swipe.)
(Sorry to have gone off on a tangent from this
note.) Steve, let's continue this via mail.
Suzanne...
|
| 155.16 | It's the ease of noting | KRYPTN::JASNIEWSKI | | Tue Dec 30 1986 08:27 | 22 |
|
Regarding "Risky Business" -
I have always and still contend that the ease_of_noting
has a lot to do with what "slips out" in the form of remarks,
comments, flames, ect. Noting is a very closed process at the
beginning - you write what you want to say, perhaps review it
to yourself, *then* toss it out onto the floor. The space in
time represented by the "then" is significant.
Suppose you take most of DEC's women employees, gather
them all into a large auditorium and, just to make it interesting,
have KO seated on stage. Our noter guilty of making certain
remarks is at the podium for an impromtu speech. Do you think
this person would be so casual or inconsiderate in this situation?
I doubt it!
Perhaps a general rule for Noting is to imagine yourself
in front of *all* DEC's employees, with KO seated at stage right.
Joe Jas
|
| 155.17 | women have limbs not legs | CSC32::KOLBE | Liesl-Colo Spgs- DTN 522-5681 | Tue Dec 30 1986 12:28 | 16 |
| I first remember sexism from grade school and high school when I
had to wear dresses or skirts and slacks on girls were prohibited.
I was sent home from school in high school for wearing culottes
(sp?), you know, they look like a skirt but have legs.
Next I dropped out of college and took up hospital training. The
hospital made the women wear dresses the first year, but in my
second let us wear pants suits. Much more practical for bending
and lifting patients. Then I went to my first job. It was in a
Catholic hospital. I showed up in my pants suit and was told to
get home and return dressed decently or I was out a job. I had to
give in then cause I needed to eat but I hated them for it and still
resent it.
Liesl (who_wears_pants_most_days_now)
|
| 155.18 | Thoughts on Prejudice | YAZOO::B_REINKE | Down with bench Biology | Tue Dec 30 1986 13:27 | 58 |
| I don't remember reacting to the obvious differences between the
way girls and the way boys were treated when I was in grade school
or high school. I do know that in grade school I did think that
boys generally had it better than girls and I wished I could be
a boy because they had greater freedom.
I think I decided fairly early on that the "rules" didn't apply
to me and that I was going to do pretty much what I wanted to
do. The path that I chose follow was academic and it was one
that with a reasonable level of effort brought me much personal
success.
The first time I became aware that people were sexist by design
not accident or ignorance was in college when I met a young man
who was an instructor at technical school that was nearly all
men. He habitually down graded the few women students because
he felt that a woman had to be better than a man to attend "___".
I know this made me very angry and I argued with him, and he
put me down because I was female.
I think I was much more aware of racism than sexism as a young woman.
I attended school until 10th grade in northen Virginia. I remember
when our schools were integrated and how horrified I was at some
people's attitudes towards Blacks.
This brings me to a story that I would like to share in light of
some of the anger against sexist remarks that has been expressed
in this note.
When I moved north and attended high school and then college with
Black kids for the first time, I tried to make friends with
rather mixed results. There were times when an overture of friendship
was received cooly or rejected, and this made me hesitate to try
again.
Then in my senior year in college I met a Black man named Ed who was
a close friend of my boyfriend (now husband). Ed was willing to
teach and was able to distinguish between ignorance and prejudice.
If I put my foot in my mouth and made a remark that could sound
racist Ed was kind enough to educate me as to how my remark
could be taken and why. He went on to be a member of our wedding
party, to support us in our adoption of mixed racial children,
and to be the god father of our 14 year old son.
I think you get a lot further with people if you assume that they
are ignorant rather than prejudiced. I don't think you get very
far educating people with a brick. Assume that people can be
reasoned with and take the time to sit down and explain to them
why their remarks can be considered offensive. People are much more
apt to change if approached this way than by attacking them and
making them defensive.
Just because a person makes a remark that you interpret as racist
or sexist or antigay or otherwise prejudiced doesn't mean the
person is prejudiced and hostile. They may simply be ignorant
of how they sound.
and have a Peaceful New Year
|
| 155.19 | I sure wanted to be a boy, too! | CSSE::CICCOLINI | | Tue Dec 30 1986 15:08 | 53 |
| Hi Bonnie - you are absolutely right regarding ignorance vs. prejudice
but for purposes of this topic, little girls certainly had no way
of pondering this type of issue. Indeed, innocent, honest attempts at
understanding were often met with hostility as in when I asked my
father to please explain what was going on with this "divine" piece
of wood that girls were not allowed to be near.
I agree that today we shouldn't be so quick to take offense at what
we presume is clear prejudice because it may not always be so, and
that's part of my whole point in starting this topic.
We tend to react quickly and strongly because we've met with
intentional and deliberate acts of sexism our entire lives and have
quietly endured them after our first innocent and natural desires
to rebel were squashed.
As a group we're angry not only at the society that held us down
and made us feel as worthy as earthworms but at ourselves for allowing
it. I think our generation will be the only one to nave both the
anger built in us AND bea able to vent it. Past generations could not
vent it and future generations will not have it.
So we are in a unique position in human history in that the tables
suddenly turned and all the rules changed in the middle of the game.
The way we were brought up is NOT the way life is today and even
though it's a change for the better it's still a change and it makes
everyone feel sort of like Emily Litella who, after an extended
harangue finds she's mis-informed, sweetly croons, "Never mind!".
And that seems to be what society is saying to us. After we've
been raised to feel inferior, weak, less deserving, less capable,
less important, less smart, dirtier, you-name-it, everything changes
and society says, "Never mind!".
And since the rules HAVE changed and things ARE better, men tend
to think, "Everything's OK now, so what's the problem?" If a man
gets beaten daily and then 20 years later the beatings stop, even
if they're never to start again, will he just get up, dust himself
off and say "Whew, glad THAT'S over with! Now let's all be friends!"
With this topic, I hope to get a good list of regular, everyday-type
scenarios that will really begin to form a picture for any man reading
through them about where our anger comes from and then they'll know
what the problem is. That women are reacting the way ANYONE would
react under the same circumstances.
We still MUST be feeling that same unresolved frustration against a
seemingly arbitrarily unreasonable world that always left us with the
short end of the stick.
So the good news is that it's over. The bad news is that this par-
ticular generation of women has some unfinished business.
|
| 155.20 | better, but not over | GARNET::SULLIVAN | Karen - 225-4096 | Tue Dec 30 1986 16:29 | 1 |
| is it over?
|
| 155.21 | listen to the meaning not the words | STUBBI::B_REINKE | Down with bench Biology | Tue Dec 30 1986 21:27 | 16 |
| It isn't over, it is better.
I felt that this note was going down a rathole of "other noter"
bashing. Let us share our stories and if our brothers offend
with their ignorance then for heavens sake go after them by mail
rather than getting into knots over it here.
Yes there are some recent additions who come on like a little brother
at a slumber party, and who have changed the flavor of Womannotes
in ways that many of the noters dislike. But are we so eager to
find enemies that we have to assume that because some one puts
their foot in their mouth they have vicious, sexist intentions?
Yes let us definitely share our stories, but lets assume that people
who have joined have come to learn and share and try and teach not
bash.
|
| 155.22 | | NEXUS::CONLON | Persistent dreamer... | Wed Dec 31 1986 06:02 | 57 |
| RE: .21
It's all well and good to tell "our stories"
(about how long we've suffered from oppression and why
it is that so many women seem to feel a basic "anger
towards men.") Unfortunately, there isn't a single
man or woman in Digital that can go back into any of
our childhoods and change what happened to us.
Myself, I don't honestly remember ever being
bothered by sexism as a child. Whatever happened was
normal for the times (I don't honestly think that any
of our oppressors were deliberately being vicious/sexist
-- they were simply ignorant of any other way to relate
to us as women.)
In my own heart, I have all the forgiveness in
the world for the people that did whatever "sexist
damage" that might have been done to me -- so much
forgiveness, that there's no way that I can feel bitter
or angry about any of it now (these many years later.)
When things started to CHANGE for women, I had to make
my own adjustments to my psyche accordingly (along with
everyone else.) The sexism from my childhood had no
real lasting effect on me.
Sexism may not be totally over yet, but my child-
hood *IS* over. It's not mandatory to carry emotional
baggage from childhood (or from any other period of our
lives) unless we CHOOSE to do so. I don't.
As for the persons who write sexist notes, they
are here with us now in *ALMOST* 1987. After conversing
with many of them in mail over a period of weeks/months,
the results have been primarily discouraging.
We all have our priorities about what bothers us
when it comes to sexism. My personal feeling is that
I don't care about the past. I care about NOW!!
I'm not angry against all men for sexism (I'm only
angry at the individual persons who actually PRACTICE
sexism where I can see it and be aware of it.) And then
only if their intent is CLEARLY to insult and offend.
It seems very curious to me that so many women in
this file can attempt to justify being angry at men as
a group, but balk at the idea of confronting individuals
who blatantly insult women as a group (and even call such
confrontations "noter bashing.") That almost sounds to
me as if it is OK to insult women as a group (as long
as we get to insult men as a group.)
That doesn't sound to me like any progress at all
in the struggle against sexism.
Suzanne...
|
| 155.23 | changing the effect of the past | HBO::HENDRICKS | Holly | Wed Dec 31 1986 08:47 | 6 |
| We can't go back and change the past. Some of us spent a large chunk
of our early adult lives being held back because of painful
experiences or because of learnings that we missed during childhood,
though. For me, finding a good therapist was the closest that I
could come to changing things. I found that I couldn't change the
past, but I could definitely change the impact the past had on me.
|
| 155.24 | I can relate to that | HUMAN::BURROWS | Jim Burrows | Fri Jan 02 1987 21:15 | 52 |
| Something was said in .19 that really struck home:
If a man gets beaten daily and then 20 years later the
beatings stop, even if they're never to start again, will he
just get up, dust himself off and say "Whew, glad THAT'S
over with! Now let's all be friends!"
Well, I was beaten up a lot when I was a kid. It started when I
was in the 4th grade, and happened almost every day during the
5th grade. During that period I can't think of any of my male
class mates but one who didn't beat me up. There was a "war"
fought between two halves of the 5th grade over which group got
to beat me up. In the sixth grade it got better and I could go
weeks without a beating. Of course I did get hit by a group of 8
or 9 and threatened with a knife that year, but I managed to get
away without actually being stabbed.
The reason all of this comes up is that several of my closest
friends in high school were boys who had beaten me up when I was
in 4th or 5th grade. I *did* dust myself off and say "Whew! I'm
glad that's over with! Now let's be friends." It didn't happen
instantly. It took 3 or 4 years, but the point is that Suzanne's
right. You choose whether you're going to let it get to you. You
either write off the past or you let it eat you to death.
What bothers me about some of these stories and the anger
against men that is associated with the experiences is that they
loose track of the fact that the assumptions were different back
when we were kids. They loose track of the fact that what was
happening in many cases wasn't men oppressing women, but our
preconceptions oppressing and straight-jacketing all of us.
Take the stuff about having to wear skirts to school. Back then
we didn't think of that as merely sexism, of men oppressing
girls. It was stupid superficialities oppressing all of us. I
got sent home for my hair being too long, for wearing boots (my
regular shoes were slow in coming back from the cobbler and so I
wore the only foot wear I had, but that excuse wasn't good
enough), for wearing tigh pants, and for ewearing checkered
pants--CHECKERED PANTS!!!.
You can look at being forced to wear skirts or dresses as sexist
or you can look at it as a part of being more concerned with
what a person is wearing than with whether they wanted an
education. Either way you look at it, it's way in the past, at
least for most of us. You can either let it eat on you or you
can say "to Hell with it" and get on with your life. You life
and mine and those of our kids are much more important than all
the idiots there ever were, be they sexists or just hide-bound
superficialists.
JimB.
|
| 155.25 | it's not in the past | ULTRA::GUGEL | Simplicity is Elegance | Mon Jan 05 1987 09:25 | 11 |
| re -1:
It's not way in the past. My family thinks I should wear makeup
and fancy skirts for holidays and they think I'm weird because I
don't want to and therefore, don't do it. They do not expect that
of the male members of my family.
And look at the different ways that men and women are (usually)
expected to dress at work.
-Ellen
|
| 155.26 | what is the intent? | STUBBI::B_REINKE | Down with bench Biology | Mon Jan 05 1987 09:51 | 4 |
| Yes, but are the conventions that pertain to how we dress
examples of sexism? Personally I don't think so.
Bonnie
|
| 155.27 | | ADVAX::ENO | Bright Eyes | Mon Jan 05 1987 10:40 | 11 |
| re .-1
I don't think dress conventions are necessarily sexist, either.
Perhaps in the past they may have been, but mostly we dress in the
"conventional" fashion because that's what we are used to seeing.
It's what strikes the eye as being appropriate. My personal opinion,
of course, and I'm open to flames. But ties on men, for example,
have nothing to do with their original purpose or intent. They
just look right, so people keep wearing them.
G
|
| 155.28 | Old-time reason women wore skirts and men didn't | CADSYS::RICHARDSON | | Mon Jan 05 1987 12:36 | 21 |
| I always assumed that women historically wore skirts so that menstrual
blood could drip unemcumbered to the ground -- surely a sexist (or
do I mean sexual?) reason! Today, though, I never wear skirts unless
I am really required to (or to folk dancing - but I don't wear
stockings dancing) because I HATE to wear fragile, transparent,
cold nylons, and the sort of shoes normally worn with them (which
are hard to come by if you wear a size 11-12 like I do, anyhow).
I have never been very interested in clothing anyhow, and was very
glad when the dress code at my high school was abolished so I could
quit spending every weekend making myself dresses that were long
enough to fit the dress code level of "middle of the knees" (a problem
that non-6-footers didn't have with the dress code). Today I am
wearing slacks (purchased from a Tall Girl store, thank goodness),
an LL Bean long-sleeved T-shirt, socks, and comfortable non-white
nursing-type shoes (arch support helps the bone-spur I developed
on my right heel). Comfortable, durable, and none of them have
to be dry-cleaned or hand-washed.
I'm hopeless, right?
/Charlotte
|
| 155.29 | Time difference on beatings... | HPSCAD::TWEXLER | | Mon Jan 05 1987 12:43 | 15 |
| RE 24: Jim, I agree with you whole heartedly, but I think there
is something you are overlooking. After being beaten on for a
period of one year, it took three or four years before you resolved
it. In other words, it took three times as long as you were beaten
for you to get beyond your hurt and anger. If (as I seem to be
hearing) some women were 'beaten up' the first 15-20 years of their
lives, then they have 45 years to live through before they can get
up, dust themselves off and say, "Whew, glad THAT'S over with!
Now, let's all be friends!" I would imagine (speaking as one
of the women who got 'beaten up' a bit during the first 15 or so
years of my life) that it is made more difficult by the fact that
every now and then *even now* someone lashes out at me with their,
er, right hook...
Tamar
|
| 155.30 | Back to the topic | CSSE::CICCOLINI | | Mon Jan 05 1987 13:18 | 14 |
| Sexism in clothes is discussed ad infinitum in another note.
Also, for those noters who said they were not affected by their
upbringing - that sounds like a great topic in its own right.
I'm interested in stories where normal, healthy female children
were not allowed to do or have or be something simply because they
were female children.
I'm even more interested in the explanations. I never got any.
My challenging questions, (and I ALWAYS demanded explanations!),
were always brushed off at best, but usually met with a backhand.
|
| 155.31 | YEAH! | CSSE::CICCOLINI | | Mon Jan 05 1987 17:14 | 36 |
| re: 29
Tamar, you said it perfectly!
I tried to address Jim's comments, (that he had been beaten up and
"got over it"), because I knew there was a big difference but I
just couldn't get the words right. You did. Perfectly.
I particularly appreciate the point you made about even today someone
comes at you with a right hook, (or something like that), and that's
EXACTLY what I am trying to point out with this topic.
When we perceive and react negatively to sexism, it is NOT just the
actual situation we are reacting to but that it is a vestige of
the oppression we have endured all our lives until only recently.
When I hear the word "Man" used to describe all of us humans, I
get angry not just at the simple choice of one word over another
but because it's a clear reminder of ALL the times I've been made to
feel useless and slighted by life in favor of the other sex.
Simple words or situations are catalysts that REMIND us of the hard
lessons we were taught as children, (specifically, "You CAN'T, you're
a GIRL!") and it's these years of pent up frustration and anger
that make us bristle at the remnants of sexism that still remain.
I suspect if some guy jokingly threatened to "beat up" Jim Burroughs,
he would NOT take it as a joke no matter HOW it was meant. Why?
It cuts too close. A guy who NEVER got beat up, of course, would
find the joke funny.
Sexist words and situations, (even if we just PERCEIVE them as sexist),
similarly cannot be brushed off lightly. Because of our upbrining,
it cuts too close.
So - back to the stories...
|
| 155.32 | | HUMAN::BURROWS | Jim Burrows | Tue Jan 06 1987 00:27 | 91 |
| Actually, it was three or four years after I was beaten up for
two years that I had several friends who used to beat me up. It
was only 1 year until I had 1 friend (and I only had a total of
3 male friends) who had beaten me up several times (not much
more than a year before). Another fellow went fairly instantly
from beating me up regularly to treating me as a friend. It
wasn't a lasting relationship because I spent summer at camp and
he repeated 5th grade while I went on to junior high (he was 3
years my senior and had repeated all but one grade).
The point is that it only took a year or so to be able to say to
one individual, "let's put it behind us", and 3 or 4 to put all
of it behind me.
Also, it didn't really stop until well into high school, until
after I had several friends who used to beat me up, because in
high school a new group started in on me. I lived with the
experience one way or another for more like 8 years.
As to the clothing still being an issue, I find that waist-
length hair, a complete avoidance of ties (I don't own one), a
penchant for velvet, cloaks, tunics, and puffy-sleaved shirts
gets me in just as much hot water as a woman's aversion to
skirts and dresses. It's still an issue for me. Head hunters,
managers and all sorts of folk regularly tell me how I should
dress.
The point here is that all my life I've been told that "little
kids wouldn't like that", "boys don't do that", "men can't do
this", "grown-ups can't play with that" and the like. I identify
with a lot of the experiences that women are listing as sexist,
only as a boy or as a man, or more properly just as a person.
I don't mean to say that there is no sexism--there most
certainly is--but rather that a lot of what people get so hot
under the collar about as sexism or as oppressive behavior is
really not caused by men consciously or unconsciously oppressing
women. It's caused by a stupid concern for superficialities or
undue reverence for the past or unreasonable shame or hatred
of the past or all sorts of screwed up reasons.
I understand that many of you women feel that my not being able
to wear long hair or checkered pants is different from you not
being able to go topless or wear pants. I understand that you
feel that just because one can get over being beaten up doesn't
mean that one can get over being treated in a sexist way. What I
fear though is that the reasons that you feel that way are sort
of a reverse sexism. My experiences can't have been all that
bad, because after all I was blessed to be a boy. Real suffering
happened only to girls.
What I want you to consider is that a couple of years of
blackened eyes, of bloodied noses, of fearing to step out of
your house, of have to be naked regularly in front of people who
beat you and humiliated you really is quite traumatic, and that
it happens not to one boy but to thousands or millions. Realize
that everyone gets treated badly if they choose to dress or
behave in a manner different from the way that they are expected
to.
It is good to stand up to the world and say "No more!" It is, in
fact, vital if you are going to live with integrity in the
culture in which we were brought up or the one it has evolved
into. What is harmful is blaming the wrong people or the wrong
ideas, is keeping the hate, the hurt, the fear or the anger, is
distancing yourself from other human beings by denying the
commonalty of your experience and your needs.
The straight jacket of unreasonable and unreasoning expectations
is something we all have to throw off. We need to be treated as
the people we are and not the people that society thinks we are
or thinks we ought to be. Little boys should not be beaten up
for not being macho enough. Little girls shouldn't be excluded
from athletics or physical labor. Little boys should not be
discouraged from intellectual activities. Little girls shouldn't
be discouraged from math or little boys from languages. People
should be free to wear clothes, fashions and costumes in which
they are comfortable and which express themselves.
To get there we need to say, "Enough! Now for something
different." We have to admit that the world has treated us all
badly, and start treating ourselves and each other better.
I'm sorry if this is long or impassioned or in the wrong topic,
but you have to understand that when it is implied that getting
over a little physical abuse in a couple of years is pretty easy
compared to a couple of decades of sexist oppression, it may not
feel that way to the person who bled, whose bones were broken,
whose eyes were blackened and who shook with fear.
JimB.
|
| 155.33 | Boys will be boys | APEHUB::STHILAIRE | | Tue Jan 06 1987 08:22 | 13 |
|
Re .32, Jim, I'd like to know if any of the people who beat you
up were females? I'll be very surprised if any of them were - or
if any of them were it was probably a very small percentage - like
2 out of 20 or something. In trying to speak out against sexism,
you have simply reinforced my belief that more males have done rotten
things in this world than females. You simply give another example
- that of one innocent individual being repeatedly beaten by other
males because he wasn't macho enough, or enough like them. Why
on earth did you ever WANT to become friends with these cretins?
Lorna
|
| 155.34 | | NEXUS::CONLON | Persistent dreamer... | Tue Jan 06 1987 09:29 | 34 |
| RE: .33
Sexism is not something that is only done to
females. The fact that Jim's example happened to
be of "boys" beating up other "boys" is not enough
for us to generalize that "men do most of the rotten
things in the world."
Male children are under a lot of pressure (due to
sexism) to be physically aggressive. They get that
message from our culture.
As much as you disliked the messages *WE* got as
children, try to imagine if you were forced to believe
that you could not be a TRUE WOMAN until you were able
to successfully FIST-FIGHT other little girls (and found
out that all the OTHER little girls in your school were
going to be forced to prove THEIR "womanhood" by beating
the living crap out of *YOU* at every opportunity!)
The sad thing about the message that little boys get
is that they STILL GET IT! My son is a child RIGHT NOW
(not 15 or 20 years ago) -- he is being forced *TODAY*
to be physically aggressive around other boys his age
(whether he wants to be or not!)
How different are things for little girls today than
they were 15 or 20 years ago? They're probably quite
a bit different. Things for little boys haven't changed
hardly at all (at least not in the ways that count.)
As a Mother of a boy, I find that pretty disturbing.
Suzanne...
|
| 155.35 | sexism is bad for both sexes | CADSYS::SULLIVAN | Karen - 225-4096 | Tue Jan 06 1987 09:30 | 18 |
| RE: .32
Jim has a good point. Sexism is bad for both sexes. But you don't want
to forget the past, you want to remember it and make sure it doesn't
happen to others. And that's what I think this topic is about. It's
about making people aware that these things happened and still happen.
Just a year ago, I heard some people tell their little girl to sit
still and cross her legs like a lady instead of playing as she wanted
to. I hear people telling their little boys to be a man and not cry
when hurt. It's *not* over, and people need to be made aware of it.
I appreciate Jim's sharing his experiances with us. Maybe no girls
beat him up, but there probably weren't any women there saying it
is wrong either. An old secretary of mine used to talk about her son
getting beat up and said that he had to learn how to fight. I asked her
if her daughter should learn how to fight too, and she looked at me as
if I was crazy!
..Karen
|
| 155.36 | | NEXUS::CONLON | Persistent dreamer... | Tue Jan 06 1987 10:01 | 9 |
| RE: .35
Excellent point! Sexism probably *IS* still
present for girls in many ways (as well as boys.)
The whole thing is AWARENESS that it exists
for all of us, and is WRONG for all of us.
Suzanne...
|
| 155.37 | | APEHUB::STHILAIRE | | Tue Jan 06 1987 11:13 | 35 |
|
Re .34, .35, it *does* bother me that expectations haven't changed
much for boys in regard to macho type behavior. I've been aware
for a long time that I would have made a lousy man because of society's
expectations. I hate sports, violence, and math! (I'm not saying
that sports or math are bad - just that I personally can't stand
either one!)
I'm glad that I have a daughter, instead of a son, because the issues
for me are not as complex and difficult. I still remember my
brother-in-law telling his little 3 yr. old son not to cry over
something because boy's had to learn to be tough. I was disgusted
and told him that if nobody felt the way he did, little boy's
*wouldn't* have to be tough. I also remember an incident where
a different brother-in-law broke down and cried when his German
Shepard was killed by a car. My mother-in-law was disturbed that
her 30 yr. old son was displaying so much emotion! I told her I
thought it was a good sign, that it proved he could care and feel
for another living creature! She seemed surprised at my comment
and appeared to really have to give it some thought!
I do think sexual stereotyping of kids of both sexes is wrong.
Ironically trying to solve the problem doesn't please everyone,
my 12 yr. old daughter was just complaining to me disgustedly that
she absolutely hates her shop class and thinks it's crazy she has
to take it! (However, she consistently gets A's in Math and is
interested in computers.)
I've heard stories recently about girls getting beat up in the
Marlboro, Mass. high school and I think it's a shame that equality
isn't making boys more sensitive instead of girls less so!!!
Lorna
|
| 155.38 | Keep those skirt hems longer.. | JUNIOR::TASSONE | Cat, s'up? | Tue Jan 06 1987 11:29 | 24 |
| rep .37 A young girl who babysits for my nephews told me that there
are three different types of girls in the Marlboro School system:
a brain, a druggie and a sporto. She also told me that if you cross
over into "a different territory", "you'll get your brains knocked
out". Well, do you remeber the story of the girl who was walking
home from school and (1 or 2) girls followed her, knocked her down
in a field and one girl proceeded to "knock her brains out" with
her spiked high heeled shoes? Literally stomped on her head with pointy
high heels? What has happened in this world? That is awful no
matter what *sex* is doing it.
I probably became aware of sexism when the boys in grade school
got to wear pants and we had to wear dresses (in the cold too- this
was a parochial school and we wore uniforms). Luckily the nuns
had some compassion and let us wear pants to and from school but
never *in* school. Oh, during the first day of every
year, all the *girls* had to kneel down on the floor and the nuns
came by and measured how close to the floor the hem of the skirt
was. If it came off of the floor, she took you aside and let down
the hem. If it was longer, than that was just fine with the nuns.
One girl had it so short that they yelled at her and said "what
kind of mother do you have?" Imagine that! We were 5 and 6 years
old. What did *we* know?
|
| 155.39 | Not just nuns who did that! | CADSYS::RICHARDSON | | Tue Jan 06 1987 12:08 | 23 |
| See, that (.38) is EXACTLY what I was complaining about, except
that I went to a PUBLIC school. Tall boys could wear pants that
were three inches too short for them, but I couldn't, so I was forced
to spend lots of time making all my own skirts so they would suit
this arbitrary rule. By the way, the rule also applied to skirts
that were too LONG - you couldn't wear long "granny" dresses (that
sure dates me, right?) to school either, which would otherwise have
solved my problem. All this baloney was abolished when I was in
high school. After that, all of us kids who had to walk home from
school wore warm slacks and sensible shoes (I didn't wear jeans,
just as I don't wear them to work now: most of my jeans quickly
get covered with paint, oil, grass stains, etc.).
I only got "beat up" once that I can remember when I was a school
kid. Since I was taller than my second grade teacher when I was
in second grade (she wasn't very tall, actually; I didn't quit growing
until I was in sixth grade), there wasn't much of a temptation to
the local thug population. Thank goodness!
The point of all this is that the dress code bsuiness was the first
time I ever noticed that some rules were different if you happened
to be a boy rather than a girl, and decided that I didn't like it
that way. Still don't!
|
| 155.40 | it's all coming back to me now | ULTRA::GUGEL | Simplicity is Elegance | Tue Jan 06 1987 12:11 | 9 |
| re -1:
Thanks for the laugh. I remember $*&##s in the Catholic schools
too now! I've been real fortunate in forgetting most of it. Only
they didn't even let us wear pants to and from school. And I
remember having hems measured when I was 7 years old. What filthy
minds those nuns had! :-)
-Ellen
|
| 155.41 | Another kind of dress-code....... | NEXUS::CONLON | Persistent dreamer... | Tue Jan 06 1987 12:18 | 19 |
| At the private Catholic boarding school (where
I spent most of high school), there was a small
population of male day students.
One year, our homeroom Nun gave a lecture to
the boys on the last day of school to *PLEASE*
purchase larger pants for school before they came
back in September. Evidently, they felt that the
boys were dressing "suggestively" by wearing tight
pants.
The suggestion was made for them to purchase
pants that were large enough "to house their equip-
ment." :-) The girls in my class almost fell over
when this announcement was made -- the boys turned
crimson (and came back to school wearing loose pants
the following September!) :-)
Suzanne...
|
| 155.42 | The Brooks Bombers | RSTS32::TABER | If you can't bite, don't bark! | Tue Jan 06 1987 13:52 | 42 |
| I'm not sure WHEN I became aware of sexism in my life. I'm not sure
I treated it as a bad thing because I was born into sexism. It was
a part of my everyday life that I was singled out because I was a girl.
Try being born into a family of 5 boys and see how special you get
treated.
My first NEGATIVE run-in with sexism occured when I was in the fourth
grade, so I had turned 10 years old. The girls weren't allowed to play
baseball at recess the way the boys were, and I snuck my glove to
school and went running over to the boys side to join in the game.
My teacher, Miss McGrath, caught me over there and took me aside and
lectured me NOT that I didn't belong there, but that playing baseball
in a skirt was stupid! I'd bloody my knees. I asked her if I could
wear my pants to school to play and she said, no, the dress code didn't
allow it.
But if I wanted to, I could bring my pants to school, change afterwards,
and she'd stay an extra half an hour to chaperone me in the schoolyard
(everyone went right home after school and children were never allowed
to play in the schoolyard without supervision).
When I got into the classroom, I stood up and announced that I was
organizing a girl's baseball team and did anyone want to play. Miss
McGrath, once she got over her shock, shut the classroom door so that
the noise wouldn't carry.
So twice a week, my girl's baseball team met in the schoolyard after
school with Miss McGrath our reluctant coach. We didn't play well,
but we played with alot of vigor...
Then the principal found out and our team was disbanded because we
wanted to play the boys at recess. I tried to get the team back
together off the school grounds but could never get enough interest.
It was that Spring that I decided I wanted to be a boy, spent the summer
up in Freedom, N.H., with my hair cropped short, telling everyone my
name was Mark.
And I never forgot Miss McGrath, nor will I ever forget her. She tried
to help.... and she got into alot of trouble for it.
Karen
|
| 155.43 | When you really WANT something, there is usually a way... | NEXUS::CONLON | Persistent dreamer... | Tue Jan 06 1987 14:43 | 35 |
| When I was in Intermediate School, we had a
"Combined P.E." period once a week during the Spring
(during which we were required to play softball with
the boys in evenly mixed teams.)
I couldn't hit a softball to save my life -- it
was a humiliating experience.
One Saturday, two of my girl friends and I went
to the school baseball diamond to do something about
it. We played softball (using our own rules) -- we
played "3 hits and you're out." (That way we could
each swing at the ball for an unlimited number of times
until we learned to hit it.)
My first time up at bat lasted for 3 hours. :-)
We spent every Saturday playing softball from
9:00 in the morning til almost 6:00 in the afternoon
(for two months.) By the time we finished, we were
all excellent little sluggers -- and although we may
not have had many homeruns during P.E., we almost
*always* had base hits. It was wonderful!!
When the neighborhood boys discovered that I could
hit the ball fairly well, I was "drafted" into all the
neighborhood baseball games. I played in a dress, but
I could smack the ball hard enough to earn my share of
broken windows! :-)
The lesson I learned: that boys are only *too happy*
to let you play with them when you have a *SKILL* that is
useful... :-)
Suzanne...
|
| 155.44 | Girls get beat up in the schoolyard too | SSDEVO::YOUNGER | Sure. Will that be cash or charge? | Tue Jan 06 1987 19:32 | 12 |
| I hate to blow holes in the theory of the boys who beat up Jim Burrows
proving their "machoness" by beating up a boy who was less "macho".
I too, was beaten up a lot when I was a kid, mostly between 2nd
and 5th grades, by a fairly even mix of boys and girls. I don't
think that sexism always has much to do with it. There are just
some cruel people in the world, who will take advantage of the "new
kid", or the "kid with the funny clothes", or anything else they
can think of. BTW, I changed schools 4 times during that timeframe,
so I was always the "new kid".
Elizabeth
|
| 155.45 | bullies | KALKIN::BUTENHOF | Approachable Systems | Wed Jan 07 1987 09:33 | 22 |
| I dunno... I've always seen bullies (I had a lot of experience
with 'em, too) as a combination of macho, cowardice, and
stupidity.
They tend to have an absurd need to prove they're better than
anyone else. They're stupid enough to believe that they can do
this while satisfying their innate cowardice by picking on the
non-violent types who are unlikely beat up on *them* in return.
In fact, those they wish to impress (the powerful and self
confident kids who have no need or desire to show off) usually
see right through them... and it often backfires in any case
since the non-violent types are not always *incapable* of
violence, and can often be pushed too far (I was, on several
occasions). This leaves the bullies with even further decreased
self-confidence, and at the bottom of the bully ladder (they
were already, of course, at the bottom of everyone else's
ladder).
Of course, "macho" isn't restricted to men, nor is "bully-ism".
/dave
|
| 155.46 | Bully-ism and sexism are part of the same human tendency... | NEXUS::CONLON | Persistent dreamer... | Thu Jan 08 1987 06:27 | 93 |
| It seems to me that "bully-ism", racism,
sexism, and all other forms of prejudice against
groups hava a common thread running through them --
and that common thread is the idea of SUPERIORITY
(the gaining of power by identifying with a group
whose members have common attributes that they
themselves consider to be superior to the attri-
butes that other groups have.)
The idea of power is important because "being
superior" would get BORING pretty fast if the
elite members of the superior group were never
given the opportunity to "cash in" on their
superiority by oppressing those they see as
"beneath" them.
In the case of sexism, my strong belief is
that it was/is bad for both sexes. Males may have
been in the position of being convinced (by our
culture) that they were superior to females, but
in reality, the males had problems of their own
that were caused by sexism. They were *different*
problems, but problems nonetheless.
I don't buy in at all to the idea that men's
lives were rosy before the women's movement (and
that women have now taken something away from men.)
My feeling is that women have always had *SO MUCH*
to offer our culture and that, until recently, we
have been a "resource" that was allowed (forced?)
to lay in waste because of the enforcement of
sexual-stereotypical roles onto so many women.
In this note, I've been resisting the idea
of relating the stories of how we were oppressed
as children. The reason for that has been my
feeling that equality is good for *all* of us
(and that men have every bit as much to gain by
accepting_women_as_peers as women do.) I don't
feel at all that we are a group of "wronged
persons" who should be demanding our rights in
anger from our "oppressors."
Sure, we *have* been wronged. But our so-
called "oppressors" were hurting themselves as
much as they were hurting us. It's now to their
*advantage* to put an end to sexism (and to accept
the fact that the burdens of our civilization are
now going to be shared by *all* of us.)
Just as Dave said, "bully-ism" has a great
deal to do with a lack of self-confidence. People
who can only feel "OK" by exerting their superiority
over others are CLEARLY sadly lacking in any sort of
positive self-image (other than their identities as
members of an elite group.) Those people are more
to be pitied than scorned (although it is natural
to feel animosity/frustration towards these indivi-
duals at times.)
When I see a man who treats women in a patronizing
or condescending way, I realize what a low self-image
he must have if he has to rely on such an out-dated
prejudice as sexism in order to feel good about himself.
(I have the same opinion of persons who are prejudiced
for *any* reason against a particular group.) It's sad
to see someone that can only achieve self-esteem by
comparing him/herself to a group that he/she has DECIDED is
inferior to the group he/she has chosen to identify with.
So the idea of "bully-ism" may not be the exact
same thing as "sexism" -- and is certainly not confined
to one sex or the other (neither is sexism) -- *BUT* the
idea is the same. It's all part of the unfortunate
tendency of humans to use their membership in a group
(that holds power over other groups) as a means of attain-
ing self-esteem.
Just as it is important that men realize that they
don't have to rely on "oppressing" women in order to feel
good about themselves, it is important that women realize
that *WE* don't need to "strike back" at men in anger
in order to attain OUR self-realization. We need
to look at sexism for what it was/is: a culturally-
enforced case of mass ignorance that hurt *all* of us
(in one way or another, some more seriously than others.)
The intelligent thing to do is to set aside *all*
our prejudices and see human beings for their worth as
unique individuals. It's the best thing for *all* of
us.
Suzanne....
|
| 155.47 | not always unconscious prejudice | CADSYS::SULLIVAN | Karen - 225-4096 | Thu Jan 08 1987 11:14 | 5 |
| Well, sometimes it's very conscious. When jobs are tight, it is all
to easy to use prejudice to insure your own job. It also helps to
be part of the superior group that gets paid more for the same thing.
...Karen
|
| 155.48 | A Beaten Analogy | HPSCAD::TWEXLER | | Thu Jan 08 1987 12:59 | 41 |
| RE 32: Jim,
First: I understand that what happened to you is as
equally horrible to what happens to girls who face sexism (which
can also have psychological and physical negative aspects). It
is terrible to be attacked/beaten because one is "the other" or
the outsider and this, of course, applies to you when you had to
deal with other boys and to females when they have to deal with
a sometimes male-dominated patriarcal society in which they are
"the others."
You said that it only took you a year to say to a particular
individual, "Ok let's put it behind us" and three or four to put
it all behind you. However, those who hurt you were identifiable
individuals--certain particular people. For girls who face sexism
and are aware of it, there are no certain particular people to be
wary of (boys my age (whatever that is), for example). Strangers
are as likely to exhibit the negative behavior as acquaintances.
Also, there is no consistency. Whereas you might know when to
expect trouble (recess), girls might find that walking down the
hall to class with teachers standing near might bring 'trouble.'
That would tend to make the problem amorphous which in turn would
make it more difficult to solve (first step to solving a problem
is to define it...).
Let me reiterate: I agree that your being beaten up is just as
horrible as what some girls face because of their sex. It is just
that because of the slightly different scope and definition of the
problem, I don't see the solutions as possibly comparable. In
other words, the analogy of being beaten up for 20 years holds,
but only if you never knew who would be doing the beating during
those 20 years and you never knew when whoever it was was going
to beat you.
Now let me get personal. I dealt with my anger and hurt just
the way you did Jim. Since I couldn't really identify the men
who were really sexist toward me (there were too many and the incidents
were spread out over time so I could never remember more than one
at any time (just as well ;-) )), most of my close friends were/are
men (I did go to engineering school, after all ;-))! )
Tamar
|
| 155.49 | Learning a lesson not taught | REGENT::BROOMHEAD | Don't panic -- yet. | Thu Jan 08 1987 17:54 | 15 |
| My first lesson in sexism? You mean, that I noticed, right?
(I fail to pay attention a lot. :-) I also had to stuff my
skirt into my leggings going to and from school on cold days,
but *everyone* had to deal with those rubber boots that you
could neither get on your shoes or off them, and boys had to
wear hockey skates instead of figure skates, so what's the diff?
Lesson: When I was in fifth grade, I was browsing through our
miniscule classroom library, and found a book entitled: _The_
_Boy's_Sherlock_Holmes_. I said to myself, "Oh, yeah?", and
instantly plucked it up.
I now have a degree in Criminal Investigation.
Ann B.
|
| 155.50 | in the endzone | CELICA::QUIRIY | Christine | Thu Jan 08 1987 18:24 | 6 |
|
The one that sticks firmly in my mind: My very first "boyfriend" broke
up with me saying, "I want to 'go out with' a girl, not a football player!"
I really knew how to tackle.
CQ
|
| 155.51 | Girls babysit...boys don't | MAXWEL::GERDE | Hear the light... | Fri Jan 09 1987 09:24 | 13 |
| I always had to babysit my younger brother and sister -- after school,
and all day during summer vacation (I had one hour off while they
took a nap). But I also had a brother 2 years older than me.
So I protested one day (I was 9 years old), and asked why I had
to babysit all the time, and my older brother NEVER had to babysit.
My mother's answer was "He's a boy. Boys don't babysit, girls do."
My brother got to play with his friends, and I got to hate my younger
brother and sister. That was 30 years ago, and I just started liking
and enjoying my younger brother and sister about 6 years ago.
Jo-Ann
|
| 155.52 | somethings have changed | STUBBI::B_REINKE | Down with bench Biology | Fri Jan 09 1987 10:31 | 2 |
| Re girls and boys and baby sitting. All three of my older kids baby sit,
both for me and for others (two boys and one girl).
|
| 155.53 | | CADSYS::SULLIVAN | Karen - 225-4096 | Fri Jan 09 1987 11:47 | 15 |
| RE: .52
> Re girls and boys and baby sitting. All three of my older kids baby sit,
> both for me and for others (two boys and one girl).
That's great!
However things haven't completely changed. I've
heard mothers talk about how they wouldn't have a boy babysit
their little girl, "just in case". They're worried that a young
teenage boy will sexually assault a little girl, but the thought
of a young teenage girl sexually assaulting a little boy never
occured to them (or even homosexual assaults).
...Karen
|
| 155.54 | Even 20+ years ago boys baby-sat, but... | HUMAN::BURROWS | Jim Burrows | Sat Jan 10 1987 12:33 | 10 |
| To get into the spirit of this rather than arguing what is and
isn't sexism, I will admit to taking advantage of sexism as a
boy. I used to make pin money baby-sitting. People were willing
to pay me $2.00/hour rather than the going $1.00 because I was a
boy (which presumably made me more responsible or better able to
handle emergencies than "mere" girls). The only other guy in the
area would would baby-sit was the one who established the higher
rate as the standard.
JimB.
|
| 155.55 | Sexism was easy | OURVAX::JEFFRIES | | Mon Jan 12 1987 16:10 | 27 |
| I guess I was so busy fighting racism that I didn't notice sexism.
With in the family unit there was no sexism. Chores were rotated,
dishes, housework, cooking and taking care of the baby. There was
a list on the kitchen door and we did our assigned chore. I always
believed that there were more problems in school because I was black,
then because I was a girl. My parents always told me that I would
haveto work twice as hard to get half the recognition as whites.
Because I was raised in a middle class white environment, there
were many social problems. I didn't have my first date until I
was 19. The only blacks in my school were my relatives, and one
didn't (date one's relatives). College wasn't much better, I was
one of seven blacks on campus. Well then I went to work and things
greatly improved :-), I ran into sexism. This was in the early sixty's
when jobs were posted male and female. I never looked at the female
board, they were mostly secretary and low paying jobs. I wanted
to make more money. I kept applying for "male" jobs. By now I had
been married and divorced, and had two children to support. I had
never been told I couldn't do something because I was female. There
seemed to be no issue with the fact that I was black, so i fought
for the job. I knew that I could do the job twice as good as the
men, and just wanted an opportunity to prove it. After much pushing
on my part, I was put on 30 day trial.I got the job, took a lot
of harrassment from the men, like, I was taking food out of there
childrens mouths,(I guess my kids didn't eat:-) ), why didn't I
stay home and have babies, how would I like to have my tires slashed,(I
didn't own a car :-) ),and all that rot. I was really quite
educational going from racism to sexism.
|
| 155.56 | My first feminist experience. | CSC32::ROGENMOSER | | Tue Mar 31 1987 16:40 | 73 |
|
I grew up in a steel mill town so had sexism all around me. None
of the mothers of any of my friends worked. Only the girls babysat
the younger kids. Girls cleaned the house, boys took care of the
yard. I was smart in school and many times got talked to about
how I could never expect a date if I wasn't willing to be dumber
than the boys. Well, I never was willing so I didn't date hardly
at all.
As far back as I can remember I knew I would be going to college.
That was the only way I could see not becoming what my mother and
everyone's mother in my neighborhood was. They were totally
dependent on their husbands for any money at all. I remember
the women next store had to sneak money from her husband to buy
sanitary napkins for her daughters. He thought it was a waste
of money and they weren't really necessary.
When I got accepted into college (during my senior year in high
school) all the neighbors talked to my parents about what a waste
of money it would be since I was just going to be a wife and mother.
All my aunts and uncles gave my parents the same lecture (and my
parents weren't paying, I worked my way through.
When did I become a feminist:
I was on the girls varsity swim team in highschool. We used to practice
in the swim suits that were given out to all the girls whenever
they took swiming in highschool. They were thick and heavy. For
meets we wore thin, nylon suits. They were handed out before every
meet by the Athletic Director (a male). Our first meet during
our senior year we ended up swiming in our practice suits. It seems
the athletic director 'forgot' we had a meet so wasn't around to
unlock the storage room with our meet suits. Needless-to-say, we
lost. Our times were much slower than normal.
Our coach couldn't do anything about it. The coach was the girls
gym teacher. (ALL the boys sports had coaches that were paid for
coaching. If the gym teachers couldn't coach the girls teams or
someone didn't volunteer, we didn't have a team.) Anyway, our
coach could have gotten fired for raising a stink about the fact
that we didn't have our 'uniforms' for our first meet. So I did
(I was the captain.) I was a A student, friends with lots of
teachers, never in any trouble and I ended up getting suspended
from the team because I suggested that the athletic director wasn't
doing his job properly! (Can you imagine what would have happened
if he had forgotten about the football teams uniforms!!)
By the way, the girls on varsity teams did not get varsity letters.
We got something that looked real similar, it just happened to be
smaller! (Sorry Jim, I think my bitterness is coming out a bit.)
As far as things being different today....
I live with a 6 year old (my SO's daughter). The most important
thing in her life is to make sure she looks pretty. This means
tights and dresses. She certainly doesn't get this from my
influence (I don't wear makeup and go for weeks at a time in
pants before wearing a skirt.) It's very difficult for me to
accept this in her when I threw it out of my value system many moons
ago.
-Sharon
didn't have a
|
| 155.57 | a snappy comeback | ULTRA::GUGEL | Spring is for rock-climbing | Wed Apr 01 1987 11:33 | 13 |
| >When I got accepted into college (during my senior year in high
>school) all the neighbors talked to my parents about what a waste
>of money it would be since I was just going to be a wife and mother.
>All my aunts and uncles gave my parents the same lecture (and my
>parents weren't paying, I worked my way through.
Gosh, this reminds me of a great story. My great-grandfather (mother's
mother's father) sent all seven of his children to college, including
the girls. When a neighbor asked him what he hoped to gain by
educating his daughters, he replied that if they learned to mind
their own business, he'd consider it money well-spent. ;-)
-Ellen
|
| 155.58 | Great Story | NRLABS::TATISTCHEFF | | Wed Apr 01 1987 13:32 | 3 |
| Ooooh, *sting*!!
Lee
|
| 155.59 | Sins of omission | NATASH::BUTCHART | | Fri Jul 24 1987 16:33 | 61 |
| My only real lesson in sexism was exquisitely subtle. It was no
sin of commission but of omission. And I never realized what had
been omitted until I put one and one together.
The first "one": a good friend (female) and I were commiserating
about our floundering efforts to define lifework
for ourselves. We had both talked ourselves into
the "weepies", when I said, "you know what I
really want to be when I grow up?" "What?" she
asked. "Supported," I admitted, ashamed. I was
28 when we had this conversation.
The 2nd "one": My husband described glowingly the first experience
he had with work. At the age of 5 he badly wanted
a certain model airplane. After discussion, his
parents decided he could have it if he worked
for it. So he did small chores, for which he
received pennies, and was also allowed to search
his father's pockets each night for pennies.
When the precious pennies had all been collected
his father took him down to the store and stood
aside while my spouse gave him all his pennies,
had them counted out, and received his reward:
the precious airplane.
When he told me this story, it was with great affection and pride.
I realised that I never, in my entire upbringing, had this kind of
experience. I remembered my husband's tale after the conversation
with my friend and realized: no one ever taught me how to work
for what you want. I was raised to wait for things to be given
to me, and raised polite, so that I was never, ever to ask for
something I wanted, only to take what was offered. I was taught
to work hard, to excel at schoolwork, housework and the like, but
it was work for no reward. No wonder I hated the idea of working
in the world at first! I was never encouraged to get summer jobs
as a teenager; my parents always "provided" what was needed.
The attitude of "perpetual waiting" that this resulted in is something
that I have battled since I was 18. A (male) friend asked me in
disbelief once, "You mean if you wanted a great car, you'd never
have gone out to get a job so you could buy one??"
I replied honestly: "No, by the standards by which I was brought
up, my duty was to wait for someone to come along who might give
me such a car. Someone like a husband. Only then might I acquire
such a car."
"And you would have tortured him to get the car, right?" demanded
my friend scornfully.
"No," I told him, "I would have accepted whatever car he could afford,
just as I accepted whatever my parents could provide. Without
question. I would not have assumed I could do anything to change
the situation."
Sad, isn't it? To those of you who wonder about some of your women
friends/wives/lovers "Why the (^#*$&# doesn't she just ask for
what she wants, then go out and get it??" this may be a part of the
answer.
Marcia
|
| 155.60 | A brick in the head... | USFSHQ::SMANDELL | Yes, I *can* have it my way! | Fri Jul 24 1987 17:14 | 13 |
| re: -1
Gee, Marcia, your story really hit home with me. Particularly the
part about working for no reward, just for what would be "given"
to you by some provider! Sometimes I look at what I *have* gotten
for myself (like my great car) and I'm amazed that *I'm* the one
who actually did it (because I really don't know how it happened!).
Thanks for sharing that.
Sheila
|
| 155.61 | | VIKING::TARBET | Margaret Mairhi | Mon Jul 27 1987 11:24 | 56 |
|
The following is posted on behalf of a member of our community who
wishes to remain anonymous at this time.
=maggie
---------------------------------------------------------------
I'm number 10 of an Irish, Catholic, blue-collar family. I can't
remember Not knowing that women were believed inferior to men.
The overriding wish of my childhood, from age six to twelve, was to
stay a kid, a tomboy, genderless. The idea of wearing nylons, garter
belts, flowery hats, lip stick, powder, and carrying a purse and myself
"like a lady" made me want to vomit. And the even more dreadful
knowledge, that I would be expected to be flirtatious and coy, made my
skin clammy and cold and made my body shake. I would watch teenage
girls and women do these things and feel deep embarrassment for them
and terror for me, a deep disgust and helpless frustration that the
universe was propelling me toward being an adult female. I would lie
awake in bed at night, hoping I would die before this happened, hoping
by some freak of nature I would not mature, and confronting the awful
truth that killing myself might be the only escape from being an adult
female.
Those were my feelings as a kid in the 1950's. A few months ago, my
husband and I were talking about kidhood, and he told me about always
wanting to be older, an eight year old wanting to be ten, and so on.
When I told him how I had felt, we both cried. And I thought back to
childhood, as carefully as I am able, and now I know why I felt like
that.
In the universe I lived in, men were heroes and did things that
counted. They thought up great ideas, and struggled in garrets, and
suffered and died for their ideals. They laid their hand to the world
and left it a better place. They were capable of great and noble deeds.
And when they were done, and had a little extra free time, they
returned home to an adoring young woman. Adoring young women were
afraid of dark places, blanched and whimpered at the sight of a sword
or a big horse, and didn't care or know about ideals or law or nations
or art because they only cared about frills on dresses, no dirt on the
floor, no peas under the mattress, and that everybody else thought they
were pretty. Adult women were like adoring young women except more so.
To Be A Woman Was To Be Trivial.
I was willing to be a martyr for the church, to give my life to save a
baby from an onrushing train, to be a galley slave -- such were my
thoughts at seven-- but I couldn't bear the knowledge that to be an
adult female was to be Trivial.
Coda
About two years, while I was sitting in a Cambridge restaurant, Betty
Friedan sat down alone a few tables away. God and Fairy Godmother and
Joan of Arc at the same time. Not Trivial. Wonderful.
|
| 155.62 | Wonderful, articulate, well-said | VINO::EVANS | | Tue Jul 28 1987 16:00 | 11 |
| RE: .61
Wow.
Thank you.
Dawn
|
| 155.63 | | AMUN::CRITZ | Ya know what I mean, Vern | Tue Jul 28 1987 16:30 | 5 |
| RE: .61
A person who expresses herself as you do was/is not trivial.
Scott
|
| 155.64 | Is It Live or Is It Memorex? | VISHNU::ADEM | | Fri Jul 31 1987 14:58 | 22 |
| I don't remember my first lesson in sexism, but I do remember
countering a lesson being learned by a six-year-old girl.
I was at an outside gathering. We were playing various outdoor
games. The boys were off playing "Around the World" at the
basketball hoop in the driveway. Janet wanted to play with the guys
and so I walked over with her. We stood next to the boys and
commented on the game and its object while waiting our turn. After
several minutes Janet started to walk away, head down, saying, "It's
OK. I don't really want to play, besides, they won't let us." In a
loud voice I assured her that the guys really would let us play. It
took them a few minutes, but they finally gave us the ball and I
showed Janet how to throw the ball. I got four successive baskets
and Janet got one while the guys stood around looking amazed. None
of the guys had gotten more than one basket.
Janet and I walked away after that, leaving the boys to their toys.
What's wrong with this picture? The "boys" were all over the age
of 30 and they were my coworkers.
Melanie
|