Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    No, I probably won't ever have kids.  I like kids, but corporate
    America, including DEC as much as any company, does not support
    it.  Maternity leave is way too short, many companies will not
    guarantee you your position once you return, and of course, there
    is still no national policy on day care.  Until these very basic
    and serious issues are resolved, no, I cannot risk the career I
    love to have children.
    
    (I guess I don't want children enough to face all of these obstacles.)
    
    	-Ellen

    Funny, we were just discussing this over lunch. 
    
    I'm not very fond of kids in general, though a few individual kids
    have been pleasant to be around. Also, my life is just beginning
    to calm down a bit, and I'm concerned about the tremendous (20 or
    so year-long) disruption 1+ kids would have on my (and hubby's)
    lives. Some day I might change my mind -- I'm still waiting for
    the inspiration to hit. I've actually met people who say they WANT
    kids. My doctor says that you never make a conscious decision to
    have kids, but you arrange things so that kids might happen to you.
    
    It's interesting -- I make a "bad" habit of listening to people who
    already have kids (besides potential grandparents), and hear much
    more negative than positive opinions. Many people yearn for the
    time before the kids were around. Others say they wouldn't do it
    again if they could choose. It's a bit scary to hear the same thing
    over and over, especially since so few people have good things to
    say about the experience.  (Don't flame me -- I'm merely reporting
    what I have heard!)  If you have kids, would you do it again? If
    so, what would you change?
    
    Liz

    The three replies that have been entered to the question "Do you
    want children?" were honest good reasons for not having children.
    
    I think we (society) has matured enough to allow decisions like
    these to be honored and not be argued or ridiculed.
    
    To each of the young women that wrote those replies, to the author
    and to those that will reply to this question I want to tell you
    something is going to happen to you between the ages of thirty
    and forty.  Be prepared for it and deal with it and you can live
    with your decision.
    
    It may be a bad dream, it may be months of dreams.  As your body
    changes and becomes less willing to start life, your thoughts will
    drift towards what might have been.  Creating life is now a conscious
    decision, being a mother is instinctive.

    
    Re .2, I have found having one child (now aged 12 1/2 yrs.) to be
    the best of both worlds.  I have had the experience of motherhood
    which I wouldn't want to trade for anything, but have not been
    overburdened the way many people with more than one child seem to
    be.  
    
    I think it's good that society is not pushing people to have kids
    anymore, but for people who are undecided having one child and then
    stopping can be a great compromise.  My daughter is very well adjusted
    and I can see no ill effects of her being an only child, nor has
    she ever complained about it.  She has close friends and cousins
    and no brothers or sisters to fight with at home.  Plus all the
    time and attention that her father and I have to give to a child
    goes 100% to her.
    
    I consider having had one child, but only one child, to be one of
    the things I've done right in life.
    
    Lorna
    

	At this point in my life I don't want kids. It's entirely possible
that I'll change my mind but I seriously doubt it. Kids are cute and cuddly
and all that but at this point I enjoy my freedom too much and don't want to
have to be tied down. Right now my favorite thing to do is travel. I'm
constantly planning my next escape to points unknown. With kids around it
would be next to impossible to simply pack my bags and head to the Carribean
for a week or two. It never was a tough decision for me. Right now, the only
problem I have is dealing with folks back home that are constantly reminding
me that time is running out and I should start thinking of having kids. I 
can't make them understand that seeing the world is top priority. Sure, it's
possible that I'll regret the decision when I'm old and gray. But if I don't
do the things that matter to me now I'm positive I'll regret it. 
    
 Bahama Mama
    

    Steve, you're going to get flamed for that!!
    
    Glad you stated that is your opinion.  My own is that MY life would
    be self-centered and pointless without offspring, but that for OTHERS
    that may not be the truth.  
    
    I have to admire women who admit they don't want children.  There
    are some terrible parents out there, and I'd rather see careful
    thought go into the decision about bearing children.  Choosing not
    to have children may not be self-centered -- it may indicate that
    someone prefers not to give less than their best to parenthood,
    and that their "best" is engaged in other pursuits.
    
    We are not all MEANT to be parents.  
    
    Gloria

    RE: .6

    I too believe everyone has a purpose in life.  However, having children
    is not everyone's purpose.  In fact I think a few people I know should
    never have had children.  The kids are unhappy and their parents do not
    know how to bring them up.  If you want to have altruistic goals, there
    are a lot of already-grown up people who need help in this world.  You
    can also help children without having them yourself.  You should do
    what your are good at and what you can be happy doing.  You cannot
    bring up children if that's not something you want to do.

    RE: not wanting children

    I'll probably have kids some day, but I don't really care for them.
    I never planned on having children (but then I was going to remain single
    too).  What I like about kids is that you can give them back to their
    parents.  Tiny babies are the worst.  Once you've seen them and admired
    how tiny and cute they are, they quickly become boring.  They haven't
    even developed a personality yet.  I prefer kids that you can converse
    with.  If I do have children I know that it will totally disrupt my
    lifestyle, and I'm not looking forward to that.  I have plenty of
    friends with kids that I know what it's like.

    By the way, I think everyone should rent a kid for awhile before having
    their own to get an idea of what it's like.  :-)

    ...Karen

    re: 6
    
    I didn't enter a response to this note because I didn't want to
    hear a response like .6 (which is a pretty common statement). It's
    not something I'm willing to take any heat for right now, and even
    though this notesfile is supposed to be a safe, supportive place
    for women, it's open to the public.
    	Mez

	RE: .11  Yes, and I could have been a circus star walking the
	high wire.  And then again, I might have fallen and broke my
	neck.  Give me credit for knowing myself.

    Before you say aye or nay in this note, you should state whether
    you are male or female!  I believe more men than women want kids
    and why not?  A little hop in the sack, a re-arrangement of the
    budget and it's off to work they go, hi-ho!
    
    I personally have NEVER wanted a child for the following reasons.
    
    1. I will not wreck my body and change my life irrevocably for a
       man who could simply up and take off at any point.  I'm not
       saying every or any man WOULD, just that they COULD and I could
       not.  It's a power he would have over me that I am just not willing 
       to give. Unless I were very rich, being pregnant and bearing a
       child puts me in quite a dependant position.  No go - sorry.
    
    2. I hated being a child.  Toys and children were boring to me then
       and I hated being treated like a child by adults and I resented
       the fact that I wasn't a "real" person in their eyes.  I left
       home at 17 after much begging and pleading since I was 14 and have 
       been happily independant ever since.
    
    3. Babies themselves are noisy, demanding and smelly.  You can smell
       a house with a baby in it and toys all over the place, swings
       in the yard, etc, are very distasteful to me.
    
    I like the world of adults and I always have.  Any guy who's ever
    hinted to me about kids has been asked if he would be willing to make
    himself physically and socially handicapped for me and then quit
    his job and "trust" me that I will always love his stretched out
    body and support him financially.  Most say no.
    
    Amen. 

  >  Tiny babies are the worst.  Once you've seen them and admired
  >  how tiny and cute they are, they quickly become boring.  They haven't
  >  even developed a personality yet. 

  Not true!  A number of my friends have had their first children in 
  the last year and I have been amazed at how quickly a baby shows
  its own distinct personality.  Even at a month old, you can begin
  to see how a child reacts to the world; some are fearful, some 
  are excited, willing to explore everything.  Some seem to be
  naturally cranky, others seem to smile all the time!  

 I'm only 27 now, but from watching what my older friends have gone
 through I expect that I have a major crisis looming in the next 10
 years over whether or not to have kids.  I love kids;  I love 
 watching them grow and acquire new skills.   But I also love
 the work I do and the way I live.  Plus I am single -- can I
 possibly think about deliberately choosing to be a single
 mother?  Especially since I think it really takes at least
 four adults to raise one child!   

 It will be a hard choice.  I am not looking forward to it.

    
    Male, and giving an individual perspective:
    
    Standing here at the ripe old age of 23 (;-)) I do not plan to father
    any children.  I do not think I would make a good parent.  I'm barely
    in control of my own life.  Being responsible for bringing any more
    into this world would be a bit more than I could take.
    
    Many of the women I've discussed this with have told me that they don't
    like the strength of my conviction about not being a parent.  I guess
    they want to keep their options open.  I can understand this, of
    course.  Some of the opinions here make an interesting contrast.
    
    Then again, what the hell do I know
    DFW 

    I have ALWAYS wanted to have children, and I am female.  This is
    not something that my mother necessarily encouraged, as she is
    definately not a "traditional" female.  In addition, I would have
    them (i.e. probably several) whether I was in a relationship or
    not.  I think it is a perfectly valid decision not to have children,
    and I am glad so many people are making their own choices about
    this and not letting others pressure them into a decision that they
    might greatly regret.  My mother tried to pressure me the other
    way, when I announced when I was 18 or 19 that I would have children
    even if single.  As far as she was concerned it was just great
    IF I was married, but not if I were single.
    
    I am 27 now, and am starting soon.  I hope to both give birth and
    adopt.  Time will tell.  Now I just try and learn, both by listening
    and by "borrowing" babies.  Children are easy for me, babies are
    harder.  I wish everyone the best of luck on her decision.
    
                     Carol   :-)

    Well I am talking from the other side I have children, five of them
    to be exact. I gave birth to the first just after I completed my
    M.A. at 25. We adopted the other four, three as babies and one
    at the age of 7. I like kids, and had I room enough & time & money
    I might well have adopted more. In fact I have only recently come
    to accept that I am not going to adopt anymore.
    
    I had always planned to adopt a lot of kids from the time I was
    a teenager and am lucky to marry a man who liked the idea. 
    
    Three of my kids are now teenagers and it can be petty tough
    at times but I'm still glad I've got them.
    
    Bonnie
    

    RE:6
    
    Dave, I must disagree with you.  No one would think you self-centered
if you turned down a job you really knew you would do badly; especially
one that involved the emotions of an innocent child.  

Let's take an example that is a little less emotionally charged.  I
am sure that you have heard of the Big Brother/Big Sister program.
A very thorough evaluation is made of you.  You must promise to devote
a certain number of hours to your little sister/brother.  They don't
want these children to be disappointed yet again.  They wouldn't be
in the program in the first place if their parents could give them
the emotional support they needed.  Which would you think more selfish;
a person who promises to devote time and energy to one of these children
and then doesn't, or someone who knows from the beginning that he/she
cannot devote what is necessary and therefore never becomes a Big Sister
or Big Brother?

You cannot adopt a child without a thorough psychological and financial
evaluation.  Did you know that you cannot even adopt a puppy unless 
someone is home for at least three days out of the week?

No one does evaluations of prospective biological parents.  I am not
saying they should, but what I do know is that if you have done a self-
evaluation and you KNOW you will not be a good parent, then for heaven's
sake, don't do it, or your kid might be my next little sister or brother.


    RE: 18  Bless you, Bonnie.  People like you should have a dozen.
    
    Eileen B.

	Why were replys .6, .11, and .12 deleted and by whom ?

David

    
    People tried to warn my husbad and I about all of the hardships
    of having children.  We didn't listen, all we knew was that we wanted
    to have children.  We were married 4 months when I became pregnant,
    and both of us were really happy about it.  Let me tell you the
    responsibility is unbelievable!  Nothing anybody has ever told me
    has come close to what mothering is really like.  You'd have to
    experience it to really know.  The first few months were the hardest
    for me, but it's getting better every day.  My biggest blow was
    discovering that we couldn't afford for me to stay home with the
    baby.  Every day when I drop her off with the sitter before coming
    to work, I feel like a small part of me dies when I am without her.
    It's very true that there are a lot of hardships in having a child,
    but she has brought us so much happiness in these past 4 months
    that I wouldn't give her up for anything!  I never before considered 
    having just one child, but I am now.  Having a baby is something
    that you REALLY have to want to do, and is definitely a personal
    decision.  I have found that if you really want a baby bad enough,
    all of the hard work doesn't seem so bad. 
    

I'm scared to death of this topic.

I adore children, babies, and kids.... anyone's!! Neighbors, nephews,
nieces, and those by marriage (his cousins).... I've helped raise
my 2 nephews since they were a week old.... *BUT*

I'm terrified of what it might do to me, my husband, my marriage,
and my future.

I'm terrified of NOT having kids, because I can see regretting the
decision.

And my maternal instinct has kicked into HIGH.  I have two kittens
as a temporary avoidance, but it's not working very well.

And I would want to stay home.  I don't WANT to be a superMom!! I
want to be a normal, HUMAN Mom!!  

Or maybe I won't be a Mom...

(whimper)

I'm 32 years old...

Karen

    RE: .9   (Karen)
    
    >By the way, I think everyone should rent a kid for awhile before having
    >their own to get an idea of what it's like.  :-)

    Reminds me of some of my Grandmother's advice, which was, before
    having children, get a puppy.  Taking care of the dog requires a
    certain amount of responsibility, just as a child does.  If you
    don't do very well with the dog, forget about a baby.  The other
    nice thing about a dog is if things don't work out, at any time
    you can give the dog away.  Not so with children.
    
    I've always thought that as a second step of this, one could take
    a foster child for awhile to try things out without a 20 year
    commitment.
    
    Now for my personal feelings, babies leave me cold, but I like children
    from about 8 up.  If I ever really feel my maternal instincts come
    out, I am tentatively planning to adopt an older child who needs
    a home.
    
    Like one of the early replies to this note, I never played with
    dolls when I was a child.  I much preferred to play with the neighbor
    boy's trucks and trains and play cowboys and Indians.  I guess I'm
    a little lacking in the maternal instincts department.  I think,
    like Dave, I am also turning down a job that I don't think I would
    do very well at.
    
    Elizabeth
    

    At this point in my life, I'm grateful I never had the opportunity
    to choose.  I was a child (17), too young to be married - much less
    be a mother.  And I resented the responsibilities of motherhood
    so very much.  But twenty-six years ago, there were no choices.
    I sometimes wonder what I would have done, if there were options
    available...but now that it's over and my son's an adult, I'm glad
    he's around.  
    
    The responsibility of making the RIGHT choices and decisions from
    those that are available today sometimes seems overwhelming.  BUT
    it is also very gratifying that the choices are available.
    

    re .22
    
    I know what you mean about being scared!  I'm thirty and I do want
    children very much.
    
    My big fear is not what it will do to my career, but what it will
    do to my marriage.  I see so many women who center their lives around
    their children, and so many men who expect this, and the other
    relationship suffers.  I hope I don't "go off the deep end" this
    way.  It's frightening to think of bringing another person, no matter
    how wanted or loved, into a relationship that is so satisfying as
    it is!
    
    G

    I've known from about age 6 that I would never have children of
    my own by choice.  I haven't had a moment's doubt about it, which
    feels good.  It must be very hard to waver in this, and yet know
    a point in time will come where there won't be a choice any more.
    
    I have always had so many interests.  And I think nothing of changing
    my life radically, moving, finding a whole new circle of people
    if they are doing what I want to do.  I sometimes shed phases of
    my life like a snake sheds its skin. ( I do keep some friends through
    all these changes, though...)  I would go crazy if I didn't feel
    free to jump at an exciting opportunity.  And to me, the kind of
    lifestyle I like doesn't seem conducive to raising a child, or making
    a long-term commitment to a child.
    
    I definitely did not want to be a parent who was half there.  I
    have one friend who judges the "goodness" of her week by how few
    interactions she was required to have with her daughter.  
    
    I have a lot of trouble with long term commitments because I don't
    have any idea who I will be or what I will want in 3 years.  I try
    not to make commitments I don't know if I can honor.
    
    Some of this may change with age.  For the first time, I am in a
    relationship with someone whom I could actually imagine making a
    long term commitment to, and although that would cut down on some
    of my choices, I get so much from it that I think that compromise
    would be ok.

    Well, as a child I never played with dolls; I was a tomboy, more
    interested in the woods.  As a teenager I didn't think much about
    kids as related to myself, except to see what unplanned teenage
    pregnancies and marriages did to all my high school girlfriends,
    and to my own sister, and to be glad that I had been lucky/smart
    enough to avoid such problems.
    
    I married at 25, and for 5 years we fought off questions and
    suggestions from family and friends that we "get going" by asserting
    that we did not plan to ever have kids.  We had those 5 years to
    ourselves, to build our own relationship and stake.  Then we bought
    a house.  Got pregnant the next month (how typical!).  Tracy was
    born on our 5th anniversary, Adam 2 years later.
    
    The point is, for one who was never much interested in babies, or
    kids, I sure have turned into an enthusiastic mother!  I didn't
    especially want kids, and there's no doubt that they complicate
    my life at work and at home.  I'm tired much of the time; I have
    little time to myself for reading or woods-walking; my husband and
    I have much less time to give eachother; time at work can be disrupted
    at the drop of a hat for sick kids.  But it would tear me apart
    to be parted from them now.  I was *astonished* at the intensity
    of my feelings for my daughter when she was born, and later, for
    my son.
    
    Yes, I gave up much - not the least being my free will, in a sense
    - when I had kids.  I didn't know what I was getting into.  I think
    no one does.  Those who feel sure they don't want kids are fine
    by me; of those who feel they want them, or are ambivalent, well,
    they will discover (as I did) only after the fact whether they made
    the right choice for themselves (and their kids).  Myself, I'm glad
    I had them (but ask me again when they're 11 and 13!).

    
    	re:.27
    
    		>  ask me again when they are 11 and 13. 
    
    	I'm enjoying my teenagers more now than I did when they were
    little (they are girls, 13 and 15) but I think that is due to my
    "status" now (career -- home -- salary all make for a more enjoyable
    /pleasent homelife).  
    
    		Myra

                 As one of the ones whose life was potentially
            "ruined" by an early (unexpected) baby while I was
            still a kid and on my own -- I can tell you that I
            had my son well before I knew what it would mean to
            my life (and before I'd had a chance to think it
            over.)
    
                 One of my earliest thoughts about him (late one
            night when he was 6 days old and my milk wasn't quite
            "there" yet and he was a 9 pound ravenous baby who
            insisted I at least HOLD him if I couldn't FEED him)
            -- I remember sitting there tired and frazzled (having
            had no real sleep for days) thinking to myself:  "What
            have I done?  It's going to be LIKE THIS for the next
            21 YEARS!!!!"
    
                 No one is *totally* prepared for what having a
            child is really like!  I can relate completely to anyone
            who has second thoughts about it and/or has made a firm
            decision to NOT have children.
    
                 Things *do* have a way of working themselves out
            if you *do* decide to take the plunge, though.  When my
            son was 9 days old, my milk was plentiful (and he settled
            down to be the most reasonable infant you could possibly
            ask for.)  
    
                  He's 16 now -- a strapping 6 feet 2 inches (still
            eating me out of house and home, and burning it off somehow)
            -- and makes me a little crazy at times (as most teenagers
            seem to have a knack for doing)...  :-)
    
                  ...but, in my case, I honestly feel that I wouldn't
            have gone through 4 years of college (and wouldn't have
            done as much with my life) if he hadn't been there with
            me.  He gave me my sense of purpose (to make a life for
            the two of us, no matter how my marital situation turned
            out.)  Having him *before* college, *before* career, and
            *before* I had done anything else...his being WITH me
            during my whole adult life has added more than I can
            possibly say...
    
                  Before he was conceived, having a baby was the last
            thing I thought I needed or wanted (at that time in my
            life) -- but he's made all the difference in the world.
            There really *is* no way to know until you get there....
    
                                                     Suzanne...

    I think it's very interesting that most of the women who don't want
    children were tomboys.  I was, too.  My mother would try to get
    me to play with dolls, but I wasn't interested.  Then when my younger
    brother was born and I had to babysit him a lot (I was 13), I really
    found out how much work babies were.  So, I have never wanted to
    have one and luckily only dated people who didn't want children.
    
    I am 39 now, married 15 years (my husband never wanted kids) and
    have not regretted my decision.  So far, I haven't had any second
    thoughts, primarily because I can see how much a baby would have
    disrupted our lives.  We do have many animals (horses and dogs)
    and some people will say "well they're your children", but I don't
    think they are a substitute at all.  One of my aunt's treated her
    dog like a child, and we definitely don't do that with ours.
    
    I have seen people who love their kids but wouldn't have any if
    they had it all to do over.  I hope all the younger women who replied
    to this note as not wanting kids will never regret their decision.
    
    						Jan
    

        I distinctly recall seeing this topic before... but I suspect it
        was in a different conference, so here's more or less a replay
        of my contribution... 
        
        I've always loved playing with little kids---particularly
        little girls---from the time they can talk through, say,
        7 or 8.  I always knew I was going to have children when
        I grew up.  I always knew I had to have a little girl...
        an idiosyncrasy which I must have inherited from my father
        (my two younger brothers and I were each named "Kathy" until
        we were born, and legend has it that Alan was almost named
        Kathy anyway).
        
        When I met Barbara, she knew firmly that she was never going
        to have any children.  Perhaps somewhat oddly, this never
        caused even a moment's difficulty between us... I suppose
        because for each of us it was more a sense of destiny than
        a deliberate insistence.
        
        Perhaps equally oddly... the more we've thought about it,
        the more our positions have reversed.  The simple fact is
        that all my old imaginings were impossibly idealistic: it
        never occurred to me as a kid that the idea of persuing a
        full time career *and* spending full time with a child were
        mutually incompatible.  I can't conceive of "abandoning"
        my child all day to a day care center or even a nanny, nor
        can I conceive of abandoning my work (even if we could afford
        to abandon my paycheck) to stay home.
        
        Barbara, however, more willing to dump the child in a daycare
        center (and I have to agree with her that a day or two a
        week would be a good idea anyway, to promote social
        interaction), has become progressively more interested in
        the idea of having a baby.
        
        We've had the interesting experience of "parenting" a young
        relative recently... my mother's mother's brother's daughter
        (Liz) recently moved into our area, with her husband Al and
        their (at the time) 2� year old daughter Katie (now a little
        over 3).  She was large (and active) for her age, communicative,
        well behaved, and (barely) toilet trained.  This is the point at
        which I can really begin to appreciate having a child around!
        We've "borrowed" her for several weekends and additional days,
        and the experience has taught us several important lessons: 
        
        	a) Having a child around is more fun and excitement
        	   than either of us had ever imagined, and
        
        	b) Having a child around is more work, and more
        	   exhausting, than we had ever imagined.
        
        We're seriously considering taking Katie to Disney World
        sometime next year.  For a time, we had resolved to be permanent
        "aunts and uncles" (Liz and Al have since produced a second
        cute little girl, so they'll keep us supplied for some time
        :-)).  But recently, especially for Barbara, the sense of
        "we could make one of our own" has started to come back,
        and it's tough to ignore... especially when we're not *entirely*
        certain we really want to ignore it.
        
        So... we haven't decided, and maybe we never will.  There's a
        long balance sheet on each side of the scale, and it's really
        tough to compare them.  At least, for now, we have two cute
        little "daughters" available most any time we want them...
        sometimes I wish we could convince ourselves that that really
        was the best possible deal... 
        
        	/dave

    Perhaps I shouldn't answer here since I don't have children by accident
    more than by plan. My husband and I can't have children and neither
    of us has really missed it. I can't even remembering wanting any
    except as "it's expected of you". Sometimes I regret this but not
    often. 
    
    I remember back when I was 24 I was using an IUD and it caused me
    great pain. We decided to stop using it and if I got pregnant we'd
    have a baby. Not very sensible since we had no idea what it involved
    in either time or money but it seemed like the thing to do. Funny
    thing was I never got pregnant. 
    
    Some of our relatives act strange when they give me consolation
    and I tell them I'm not upset. I guess they expect me to feel my
    life isn't worth much if I can't reproduce. I figure if we decide
    kids are the answer we can adopt. That seems better than fretting
    about not having "one of my own blood". 
    
    My biggest problem is the relatives, why do people think this is
    any of their business? The females are the worst and seem to try
    and make me regret a decision I never even made in the first place.
    
    I'm glad the decision was made for me. I probably would have been
    one of those parents that leaves the kid at daycare or the babysitter
    more than at home. I never liked the job of housewife/mother and
    my own mom avoided it by working to afford a housekeepr and once
    a week maid. Like mother like daughter I guess. Liesl

    It seems to very 'in' among women between 25 and 35 not to have
    children (various articles in TIME, NEWSWEEK, etc.).  It would be
    interesting to meet women currently in that age bracket who presently
    say they do not want children when they are 45 and see if the maternal
    instincts win out.
    
    Flame if you wish.  Nothing negative is intended.  The choice to
    have children is personal and none of my business outside my own
    family.  However, I believe choosing not to have children is a fad
    which will change in time, for most people.

    I don't believe it's a fad.  You just never heard from these women
    until recently.  People were almost ashamed to admit that they didn't
    want to ever have children.  The pressure to have kids is tremendous
    even though people aren't aware that they're putting on that pressure.
    Every time a friend of mine has a child, they ask me when I plan to.
    When I see an acquaintance that I haven't seen in a couple of years,
    one of the first things they ask is if I have kids yet!  Also, from
    my perspective, the fad is more to have kids than not.  Everytime I
    turn around lately, there's a pregnant woman next to me.  I think we're
    in a baby boom.

    ...Karen

    re -2
    
    It's not 'in' to have kids?  If that's so, then how come there's
    so **$%&#** many of them around? ;-)
    
    	-Ellen

    No, I don't want any children of my own. I like kids and sometimes
    borrow them from other people (Ann Broomhead and I take Jim Burrow's
    5-year-old and 3-year-old out once a week for lunch. (and very good
    children they are, too.)). I have worked in day care centers during
    college and until college I always thought I would have some of my own. 
    
    But, now, I don't want any, ever! If I had children I would feel I had
    to stay home with them, money or no money, but I like my job and would
    go crazy staying at home. I have become very selfish. I like being able
    to take off for a week long vacation on 3 days notice. I like my toys.
    I have much less patience than I did 10 years ago. And thru 3 serious
    relationships, I have never been involved with a man who wanted
    children. (In fact, they've all been adamantly against the idea.)
    
    There was a point in my life where I was ambivalent enough, that I
    could have been talked into kids and enjoyed it. But that point passed
    about 4 years ago. I admit to feeling the occasional biological twinge
    (well, more like a raging inferno at times), and it's possible I may
    regret not having them at some point in the far future. But I don't
    really think so. 
    
    I like my life and my relationship and if I had children they would
    take a very definite backseat to the relationship between my partner
    and myself. I can hear people saying "That would change pretty quick
    if you had a baby.", but I know just how powerful the bond is, and
    think children would be a mistake because of that bond. There really
    isn't room for children in it.

    Tamzen                                                           
    
    BTW, I heard there is a new term for couples like this, supplanting
    YUPPIES. We're DINCs--Dual Income, No Children. ;-)

It is really great that womin now have the choice as to whether they
become mothers or not and I would hate to go back to the days when a
womin's only role was that of housewife and mother.

But I'm a single, 29yr old male who wants to be a mother! Where are my
choices? I borrow peoples kids, I visit a childrens home regularly, I've
thought of adoption or fostering. But who's going to give a single male
the chance?

At least a woman can stay single, if she wishes, and choose to have a
child. Not so with a man.... anyone know how I can get pregnant?? :)

Send me your unwanted babies folks, I'll give them a good home!

					.garry.

Re: .37

What country do you live in?  I know things are different elsewhere, but
in Massachusetts it's not impossible to adopt a child/baby if you are single.
Even if you are male.  I don't know how easy or difficult it is, but I know 
it's not impossible, and there's a support group for single adoptive parents
(as well as prospective parents) called Single Parents for the Adoption of
Children Everywhere (S.P.A.C.E.) based in Boston, I believe.  Obviously you'll
never be able to become pregnant and bear a child.  There are plenty of kids
out there who need parents.  One is probably better than none, and I think the 
adoptive and social service agencies are beginning to believe that.

CQ

Christine.

To answer your question, I live in New Zealand, and the laws here also
allow single parties to adopt/foster children.

I'm not essentially a pessimist but I feel that, as a male, to attempt
to adopt a child, would be very difficult. I'll just keep on searching
for a woman who isn't opposed to the thought of having children. If I'm
still searching when I'm about 35, then I'll attempt adoption.

Also, being adopted myself I have a desire to have my own children,
something to do with not knowing where I came from but wanting to know
where I'm going.... I suppose that's another topic?

					    .garry.

    
    
    	I was a tomboy growing up and rarely ever played with dolls
    	I have a brother 9 years younger than me who I ended up 
    	babysitting alot (or so it seemed) for free.  
    	
    	I have always said NO WAY would I have kids I would not be
    	chained to a brat, etc.  I don't like other peoples kids,
    	and cringe when they come near me.
    
    	Well, Today is my first day back at work from maternity
    	leave.  I went through the whole list of possible 
    	solutions.   First I was going to get an abortion, I would
    	have gone through with this if there was more time -
    	then a wonderful couple I know wanted to adopt the baby -
    	We would have done this but the fees were to much for
    	the couple to afford - then I was going to put the baby
    	up for adoption at an agency, but I decided I couldn't
    	handle never knowing about the child and if the child
    	was okay.
    
    	I decided about 1 month before I was due to keep the baby -
    	I have a good job here at DEC so money wasn't really an
    	issue, I am single and have no wish to have the babys
    	"father" a part of our lifes, anyways I decided to make
    	the best of the situation and keep the little bugger.
    
    	Well, as of October 30 I've been a "mom".  John, my son,
    	and I made a deal - he'd have patience with me and I'd
    	have patience with him.  Its worked out pretty well so
    	far - granted there are times when I want to throw the
    	kid out the window (which usually last about 5 minutes
    	then I feel guilty for letting him cry) and we have 
    	our bad nights where he decides he wants to stay up all
    	night and I regret my decision to keep him, BUT there are 
    	also the times when he breaks out in a huge smile when he 
    	looks at you or watching him get all excited and making one
    	little goo and have his face break out in a bewildered
    	look like "Hey, did I do that???"  (this is the latest
    	"break through")
    
  	I never thought I would say this but John-John is great,
    	I'm glad I made the decisions that I did, hes alot of
    	work but hes alot of fun too, and his good times more
    	than make up for his "little shit" times.
    
    	I guess what I am trying to say is having your own kid
    	is ALOT different than watching someone elses, and alot
    	of people might be surprised at how giving they can be
    	I know I was.
    
    	/robin
    

    HI LIZ,
    
    I NEW TO THE NOTES BUT I CAN UNDERSTAND HOW DISCOURAGING IT CAN
    BE TO HEAR ALL NEGATIVE THINGS ABOUT KIDS.  SOME PARENTS SEEM TO
    FORGET THE WONDER, REWARDING THINGS KIDS BRING TO YOUR LIFE. THEY
    FOCUS ON THE HARD TIMES.  TRUE, THERE ARE HARD AND FRUSTRATING TIMES
    BRINGING UP CHILDREN BUT THAT IN NO WAY WOULD CHANGE MY MIND.
    ESPECIALLY AS *KIDS* GET OLDER.  I HAVE THREE KIDS TWO DAUGHTERS,
    24 AND 22 YEARS AND A SON WHO JUST TURNED 18 LAST SUNDAY.  I OTEN
    THINK OF ALL THE WONDERFUL TIMES WE HAVE AS A FAMILY. RECENTLY WE
    ALL FLEW TO FLORIDA FOR THANKSGIVING TO VISIT MY HUSBANDS PARENTS.
    MY DAUGHTERS HAVE THEIR OWN APARTMENT, (ONE IS GETTING MARRIED IN
    JUNE SO THE OTHER ONE MIGHT COME TO LIVE AT HOME AGAIN.) WE ARE
    LIKE THREE SISTERS AND HAVE A GREAT TIME SHOPPING AND VISITING.
    THEY CALL ME ALL THE TIME TO DO THINGS WITH THEM. I LOVE IT. MY
    SON IS MORE INDEPENDENT AND WAS MOST DIFFICULT TO RAISE BECAUSE
    HE HAS A "KNOW IT ALL" ATTITUDE HE INHERITED FROM HIS GRANDFATHER.
    HE HAS STRUGGLED THRU SCHOOL AND QUIT THIS PAST YEAR. HE IS WORKING
    FULL TIME AT A JOB HE LIKES AND INTENDS TO TAKE HIS GED TEST. BUT
    THE TIMES WHEN HE BROUGHT HOME HIS HANDPRINT FROM SCHOOL WITH A
    POEM STATING HE MADE THIS HANDPRINT "SO YOU WILL ALWAYS REMEMBER
    HOW LITTLE MY HANDS WERE IN THE FIRST GRADE". I CHERISH THAT PAPER
    AND NOW THAT HE IS 6'2" TALL, I GLOW WITH WARMTH WHEN I LOOK AT
    THAT LITTLE HAND. THE RELATIONSHIP MY HUSBAND HAS WITH THE GIRLS
    IS PRICELESS.  I DON'T KNOW WHAT I WOULD HAVE DONE WITHOUT THEM.
    THE OLDER THEY GET THE MORE REWARDING IT SEEMS WITH THEM. THEY SEND
    ME FLOWERS AT WORK JUST TO "CHEER" ME SOMETIMES.  I GUESS WE ARE
    LUCKY AS WE FEEL THEY ARE 3 GREAT KIDS WITH GOOD MORAL VALUES. NEVER
    HAD DRUG OR ALCOHOL PROBLEMS EVEN WHEN THE GIRLS WERE AWAY AT COLLEGE.
    THEY CARRIED THEIR VALUES WITH THEM. IT HAS BEEN A MOST REWARDING
    EXPERIENCE. NOW THAT THEY ARE ADULTS MY HUSBAND AND I ARE STILL
    YOUNG ENOUGHT (47 AND 53) TO PUT ALL OUR ATTENTION ON OUR LIVES.
    WE JUST BOUGHT CROSS COUNTRY SKIS AND WILL TAKE LESSONS SO THAT
    WE HAVE A WINTER SPORT TO DO TOGETHER. A WHOLE LIFE AHEAD OF US
    AND WE LOOK FORWARD TO BEING GRANDPARENTS SOMEDAY!!!  HAVING CHILDREN
    CAN PUT A STRAIN ON A MARRIAGE IF YOU DON'T HAVE THAT BASIC LOVE
    AND RESPECT FOR EACH OTHER AND TO ALWAYS PUT YOUR SPOUSE  *BEFORE*
    YOUR KIDS, CAUSE WHEN THEY ARE GROWN AND OUT OF THE NEST, YOU ARE
    BACK TO BEING A COUPLE AGAIN. IF YOU'VE LET THAT ATTENTION AND RESPECT
    BE PUSHED ASIDE BY CHILDREN, YOU HAVE NOTHING LEFT OF A MARRIAGE.
    YOU HAVE TO KEEP THAT IN MIND.   
    
    I WOULD HAVE 3 KIDS AGAIN IN A MINUTE BECAUSE OF ALL THE LOVE WE
    HAVE RECEIVED IN RETURN!!
    
    BARBARA
    
    

    I am a female, I played with dolls and I was a tomboy.  I had mostly
    male cousins and two older brothers when I was growing up (and a younger
    sister).  As a child, I never had a desire to have children and this
    stems from being sexually molested by a close relative.  I didn't
    want to have any of my children go thru the hell I went thru so
    I made the decision not to have children at an early age.  I got married
    when I was 17 and still in high school.  Partially to escape but
    I really did love my husband-to-be.  My husband was aware of these
    incidents before we were married.
    
    We had been married 7-1/2 years when we decided I would have my
    tubes tied (after being on the 'pill' since the 1st day we were
    married).  About 1-1/2 yrs later, I was having very painful periods
    and long...like flow for 18 days and have 3 to 4 days off for good
    behavior!  Then it would start back up again.  I finally had a
    hysterectomy(sp?) and when I spoke with the doctor before the surgery
    he said this could be one way of my body making sure I could never
    have kids.  Our bodies and minds do strange things.
    
    My sister had a baby about 6 months after my surgery and I coached
    her thru the birth since he husband was a chicken-shi_ and "couldn't
    do it".  I am known to my niece as "Papa Judy" because of the bonding
    that occurred at birth and is still occurring today.  (She 8 years
    old, people look at us strange when she calls me Papa Judy in public, 
    like "did she (me) have a sex change operation? or what's going on?)
    
    I am still married to the same guy, 16+ years.  We've never regretted
    not having children.  Besides, we can change our mind and adopt
    if we get that maternal urge!  And I don't mean a 'baby'.  We've
    talked about 'older' children that are harder to place.  If and
    when we make the decision, I know we will have a home and love for
    a child that desperately needs it.
    
    Judy      

    I had enough of taking care of children to last a life time...
    well almost. I'm the oldest of 11.  
    If I want to be around a baby or children, I
    just "borrow" a niece or nephew for a weekend.  So far I've
    survived.   

    
    re: .43  I hear you!!!! 
     
    I'm the oldest of 12 and I've done enough childcare for
    several lifetimes.  However, I do enjoy being around children
    of all ages and I'm fortunate to have friends who are parents.
    Aunthood is something I'm anticipating this year since several
    siblings are due to be parents in the near future.
    
    AM