Conference turris::womannotes-v1

Marge and Steve thanks for your replies....
    
    Being a New Noter I might not have entered this note in the right
    place or worded it in the way that would have made my point.
    
    It was meant to be a companion piece to the note that discusses
    our (women's) anger at men.
    
    "Bottom line" there are many personalities in the workplace and
    in life that try to impede our progress for reasons that do not
    seem valid or logical.  If we as women get put down because of our
    womenness by men we also get put down by other women for our womenness.

    no matter who you deal with 
    always hold something in abeyance
    so that you will know something that 
    they don't
    

    RE: .2
    
    	Sorry, but I very STRONGLY disagree. Men may very well be 
    able to inflict subtle and painful pay backs, but the saying
    "There is no greater wrath than a woman scorned" couldn't be
    more accurate. I know this isn't an exact quote, but you get
    the point. It's also just as true woman to woman, as woman
    to man.
    
    	If a person has integrity, then tactics DO matter. You imply
    at one point that tactics don't matter as long as the job gets
    done, and out right state in the next paragraph that "after all,
    winning IS winning". To me, winning ISN'T winning if you have to
    do it at someone else's expense.
    
    >Be part of our team or move on?????????
    
    	And what if that team is without scruples and cares not who
    it hurts. Are you saying either stoop to our level, and care
    not with us, or move on. Thanks, but I'll move on thank you.
    
    
    Steve

    Steven--
    
    We are not talking about a woman that worked hard to get where she
    is.  We are talking about a woman who has neither technical expertise
    nor management experience.  She did the right things, said the right
    words, and supported management in a very "typical" female way.
    (I pray I don't get cremated for that). 
    
    We as women that are willing to work hard and are technically expert
    have to watch out for this type of person just as much as we have
    to deal with the men that are not willing to support us.  Men are
    suffering a prejudice...the woman that I am describing is suffering
    from some very basic instincts (jealousy, survival (hers), etc.)
    and using tactics do promote a management style that will not work
    or produce the desired results.
    
    I want to stress that if we as women are going to conquer the
    prejudices that exist in the workplace we have to look at our own
    sisters and develop strategies that allow us to work in a non-sexist
    environment where skills and achievement are the measures of success.
    
    ...Joyce

    If she's a woman in a traditionally male job, she may be used to
    getting satisfaction and visibility from being the only female
    such-and-such, or the highest-ranking female such-and-such. This may be
    very important to her if she isn't a shining star in any other respect.
    With other women in the group, she's no longer distinguished; so
    your very femaleness is a threat no matter what you do.

    Although it may not apply in the case in .0, I mention it because it is
    an issue of the sexes. You can fight it in yourself (sometimes I've
    caught myself thinking this way), but it'd be hard to combat in others;
    it's a a specific example of the kind of threat mentioned in .9. 
    
    					Val 
     

    
    Re .0, Joyce, I really don't understand what you mean by a woman
    "using her femaleness" to undermine a co-worker.  Do you think there
    are specific traits that women have, that they use in this way?
    
    Also, re .8, you say, "We are talking about a woman who has neither
    technical expertise nor management experience", but who said and
    did all the right things in a "typical female way", and then presumably
    got a good job at Digital, and now rather than encouraging other
    female workers treats them as enemies?  What are these right things
    that she did, and what is meant by a "typical female way"?  I'm
    not sure what you mean.  I guess I thought it was difficult enough
    for women with "technical expertise" and "management experience"
    to get ahead, never mind somebody just getting ahead in a "typical
    female way" by doing and saying all the right things.  Is that
    possible?
    
    I guess my only complaint about women managers at DEC is that, in
    my 11 years experience as a secretary at DEC, they tend to be more
    snobbish and unfriendly to secretaries than their male counterparts.
     Because of this I would still prefer to work for a man than a woman
    any day.
    
    Lorna
    

    re:.0
    I agree that there are women out there who do use their 
    *womanness* to get ahead.  There are alot of valid comments
    that have been made in this note, but the point is being
    missed.  From what I can gather from Joyce's note, she was
    speaking particularly about non-technical women.  I have seen
    this myself when in competition with other women.  Some of the 
    tactics used by them have nothing to do with their expertise but
    the expertise of others, and their cuteness.  Gee, I don't quite
    know how to write that!  Ok, one experience, not to long ago, I
    had interviewed for a software specialist job.  My hands on experience
    college training, technical background,  was high and above 
    the qualifications of any other applicant.  The position went
    to a young 19 yearold girl who went to lunch, partied, and was a
    friend of the manager.  When I talked to her off line before
    the interviews, she told me the only interest she had was the pay
    increase so she could marry her boyfriend.  She didn't want to go
    to college, or become highly technical.  When I didn't get the job,
    I went to the manager and asked exactly what happened, what I could
    do to get the next opening etc.....  Well, I was told that because
    of my age, my non-conformity, non-political attitude (office wise)
    I needed to learn how to *compete* with younger girls.  I was also
    told that this youngun needed the money more than I did, after all
    she wanted to get married and I already had my chance.  I told this
    said manager, that she need not concern her bigoted self with my
    future, that I would get a position with a manager who went on skills,
    knowledge and ability without her aid.  I also thanked her perfusely
    for not hiring me, I told her I wanted a future, not a *friend*manager.
    So anyway, I did get a position with a non-sexist, non-political
    manager about a month later and I thank my lucky stars I don't work
    for the previous manager.  BTW, I trained the youngun, coached her
    and helped her prepare for the interviews.  I believed everyone
    deserved a fair shot.
    I know this was long winded, but I just wanted to say that I did
    understand what Joyce was saying.
    
    vivian
    

    re:.12
     
    Whatever strategies or tactics that any individual uses to gets
    the job done can be justified.
    
    Some typical ways that women use to promote their ideas and projects
    are clothing, perfume, flirting.
    
    But when a women views herself as threatened by either a more competent
    woman or a more attractive woman and actively discredits the "threat"
    in off-line meetings using clothing, perfume, and flirting that
    is an enemy.  
    
    Again I am restating my original note.  The suggestion I am making
    is that there are people out there regardless of their gender, but
    because of their gender, have prejudices against us as women.  We
    need to be aware of them and develop strategies to work around them.

    re .12: It could be that women who get promoted to a management
    position are afraid to "associate" with the secretaries because
    of the "birds of a feather" stereotype. I have heard the same fear
    expressed by technical folks who got promoted and then stopped hanging
    out with the techies. Right or wrong I believe this feeling exists.
    It's sort of that same thinking as "dress for the job you want".
    Liesl

    re .15
    
    Liesl, you're right!  I'm a secretary and I try not to hang out
    with the engineers I work for too much, because I don't want people
    to think I'm a techie!  :^)
    
    G

    Have any of you heard of "The Nibble Theory".  I forget the writer
    but the book indicated that there are "big" circles and smaller
    circles.  When big circles and smaller circles get together and
    the big circle won't allow the smaller circle to get any bigger,
    then that's called "nibbling".
    
    My new manager gave me that to read only 1 week on the job.  She
    wants me to grow here in her department and even hired me as an
    inspiration to two other "female" employees who are lacking in
    self-confidence and Digital "know how".  I've only been at DEC for
    2+ years and on my interview, she barely gave me the chance to speak
    about what I can do, what I am skilled at and what I needed to work
    on.  She practically admitted that she knew she wanted to hire me
    when she heard me "inquire" about the job on the telephone.  Then
    she says, " I knew the minute you walked in that you were the type
    of person I wanted on my team".  I wore no suit, had no cologne
    on, I didn't flirt (she's a female, come on), I shook her hand as
    she says, "Welcome aboard (I didn't even say anything yet and she
    welcomed me aboard").
    
    The point?  Well, I'm for a female manager.  She wants me to succeed
    without Nibbling but you better believe that I am going to hang
    around with Bigger Circles that encourage me to grow, even if I
    am stepped on by Huge Circles that don't want me to grow.  I have
    support from my managers because "they have been there before" and
    she is sensitive to the way my former "male managerS" treated me.
    The male managers had very little ambition, knew very little of
    management in general and would just assume leave me in my chair
    to rot: as long as they got what they were paid for.  Well, I was
    more than a "hood ornament" and I am proving it in my new job.
    
    By the way, I am , by Personnel standards in DEC, considered level
    with an Administrative Secretary but as a Dept. Coordinator III
    (with no definition as of yet), I have had more growing opportunities
    than I ever did before, I am involved in budgeting, financial
    reporting, I sit on Management Staffs and I do planning.  All this
    and I've only been here 3 weeks.  I feel bad for the secretaries
    I left in my old job because they are good workers and should be
    challenged more.
    
    Another point, the other two Dept. Coordinators (both female) were
    told not to feel intimidated by me as I have more experience and
    DEC know-how.  Well, one of them is treating me pretty badly 'cause
    she's been here longer and wanted this job.  But, they didn't promote
    her because she is a little circle who wants to stay that way.
               
    Someone said they didn't want a "friend" in their manager.  I agree
    with that. Although this woman is dynamic, I wouldn't ask her to
    go out for drinks or have her over for dinner.  Business is business
    and I'm leaving it that way.
    
    Cathy
    I

RE .18
    
    Out of interest, (Probably out of context for this note)

    Would it have made any difference to you if the Manager was a man,
    I have replaced the She with a he; Seems to me, that if a male manager
    had said the following, most Readers of this notes file would have
    given him a VERY strong reaction.
    
>    He barely gave me the chance to speak about what I can do, what I am
>    skilled at and what I needed to work on.  He practically admitted that
>    he knew he wanted to hire me when he heard me "inquire" about the job
>    on the telephone.  Then he says, " I knew the minute you walked in that
>    you were the type of person I wanted on my team". 
        

				Regards
    					Mark