Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Maybe I was spared "conditioning."

    On women use tears to hide their anger, men use anger to hide their
    tears...
    I'm unwilling to generalize to all people, but this seemed somewhat
    true of R and me in the beginning. I'm learning to BE ANGRY
    when I'm angry (funny to have to learn that -- it's probably more
    that I'm unlearning not allowing myself to be angry after years
    of bad training). R is learning NOT to be angry when he's really
    feeling something else. The aphorism rhymes, but is not entirely
    accurate in our case -- I think the "something else" is rarely tears,
    but might be fears or hurt.  Since becoming aware of this pattern
    and talking about it (before hearing the saying), we've improved
    the way we communicate when we're unhappy.
    
    liz

    I've heard the cliche' that "Men act before they feel, and women
    feel before they act". But like all generalities, its only true
    sometimes, and then only for some.
    
    I grew up in a "Feminine dominated" household and (skipping all
    the drivel) I was raissed pretty much in the similiar fashion as
    "girls were". I was generallty so busy doing chores, I didn't have
    much time left for sports and stuff, so spent lots of time playing
    with the girls in my neighborhood.
    
    As time went by, I got a job in an insurance company, and during
    a conversation (which embarased me greatly) I asked one of the 
    women why they talked of such personal stuff in my presence.Her
    reply was "because I think of you as one of the girls". At the time
    I felt it was both a put down on my "masculinity" and a "compliment"
    to my sensitivity at the same time!
    
    Over time I found I had a "special"talent for talking to women.
    One which is returning, after a long absence.

    Today, literally, I find I still have  problem in trying to articulate
    my feelings, as an adjunct to understanding, and being understood,
    as to "what" I do feel, in terms of a relationship. I've lost my
    "absolute" need to hide my tears, and in female company let themn
    flow as appropriate (and other friends as well).
    
    I find from time-to-time, still "posturing" and "trying to be
    attractive", particularly with a "new" aquaintence. But I am learning
    that "probably most" women would rather see an honest person than
    a great man. Its probably easier to love an honest person than a
    Great Person anyway. We all have our fantasyies.
    
    Bob_goodnight_all
    
    

{RE .0} - The problem with these clich�s is that they tend to perpetuate
 themselves.  It's obviously not an innate feature of men to "use love to
  get sex" because not all men do.  Perhaps most do, but to present it as
   as something "men" do is to add to the cause of it!  (Since we've deter-
    mined that it's not innate, the cause is environment.  Presenting such
     clich�s contributes more to that particular part of the environment.)

When presenting facts about sexist culture, it's best to avoid generalizing.
 Granted, "according to a 1983 survey, 73.7% of all men use love to get sex,
  24.2% use sex to get love, and 2.1% are only interested in chocolate" is
   not as catchy or elegant as the clich�; but it's better to stick with the
    truth, and it's better not to generalize your abberrant allies out of
     existence!
      <_Jym_>

Jym, I more than agree with your thoughts on cliches!

>	"according to a 1983 survey, 73.7% of all men use love to get sex,
>  24.2% use sex to get love, and 2.1% are only interested in chocolate" is

This survey sounds really interesting. What were the questions that had to
be answered (any survey is irrelevant without the questions asked and
results).

I could not honestly say that in all my relationships (100%) I have used love
to get sex or visa versa. I don't even know what is meant by this.

Dave.

    
    It's not a generalization to say that in *my experience*, particularly
    when I was younger, the statements made in .0 appeared to be true.
     When I was in my late teens and very early twenties (1967-1972,
    the dumb years) it seemed to me that I most of the guys *I* met
    were only playing at love when what they really wanted was sex,
    and that I was playing at sex (which at the time I had no real interest
    in) in order to get love.  This was sometimes destructive since
    some guys wound up married to pregnant women they didn't love, and
    some women wound up broken hearted by guys they had slept with and
    loved, only to find out the guys just thought of them as a piece
    of a**.  Scenarios like this happened to me and my girlfriends,
    and some of my male friends, too.  I'm sure it wasn't true for
    everybody.  It doesn't mean that all men are insincere heels - only
    that *some* are, particularly in their late teens and early twenties.
    
    I don't think this is as true of people in their 30's and 40's who
    presumably are more honest about what they want and need in
    relationships.  And, maybe it's not true of younger people in these
    more enlightened days either.  But, it's not a mystery to me that
    the quote mentioned in .0 was ever coined in the first place.
    
    As far as men and women showing their feelings, I can only say that
    in 12 yrs. of marriage I can remember seeing my ex-husband break
    down and cry 3 times.  He'd go crazy trying to remember how many
    times *I* broke down and cried in 12 yrs, and so would I!!  
    
    The only pressure I've ever felt from society about crying is in
    crying *in public*, especially at work.  A few times in my secretarial
    career I've been upset enough about something in my personal life
    to be sitting in my office crying when somebody has come in to ask
    a question, etc.  The other person always seemed horrified and
    embarrassed as though they caught me in a faux pas.  
    
    I think there are definitely differences but they *may* have all
    been caused by society.
    
    Lorna
    

    Re: .7
    
    Best of all: sex, love, AND chocolate!
    
    -bs

        Depending on your intended meaning for this topic, it may
        be considered a duplicate of my topic #10... not that I mind
        that, since #10 fell into a large rathole well before the
        59th reply.
        
        Hoping not to bring this into the same rathole, I nevertheless
        feel compelled to point out my purpose in starting #10...
        
        Do you intend to discuss perceived differences between imaginary
        and hypothetical "typical" men/women in our specific society, or
        do you intend to target "absolute", "intrinsic" differences
        between *all* men and *all* women.  In all my experience, and in
        all the replies to #10, I have seen no evidence whatsoever of
        the latter, nor could I actually get anyone else to claim that
        they saw any.  The general reaction when I carefully
        re-explained what I'd said in the basenote seemed to be "oh,
        then what are we doing here?" 
        
        There's certainly nothing wrong with a discussion of differences
        in the male/female *images* of our society, and I hope that's
        what this discussion becomes.  But be aware that they're only
        images, and, in general, have no relationship to reality. If you
        really think there are *real*, *intrinsic* differences, I humbly
        recommend that you reopen topic 10 (and *read it* first:
        ignoring all the unfounded and hysterical invective against me,
        of course! :-)) rather than duplicate that thread of discussion
        here! 
        
        	/dave 

    
    Re .10, I don't understand how you got that out of what I said,
    regardless of how unclearly it may have been written.  I was trying
    to avoid making a generalization about men and women by saying that
    based on *my experience* the statements in .0 are true.  I'm not
    repeating a generalization that I heard somewhere.  I have an opinion
    formed by my life's experiences.
    
    I think that the last paragraph of your .10 is certainly quite a
    generalization.  It's so general, in fact, that it could apply to
    *almost* anything.  
    
    Dave (Butenhof), I for one have no desire to jump back into the
    rathole and become hysterical at you!  But, do you think that men
    and women are different - not intrinsically (sp?) - but because
    of society?  Do you think *most* men have spent more time looking
    for sex than love?  Even if *you* haven't?  I mean, you do realize
    by now that men with views like yours (that you've expressed in
    here on many topics) are still in the minority, don't you?
    
    Lorna
    

        .13: I think I've made my views on the subject abundantly
        clear, numerous times.  Do you have anything to say on the
        subject other than asking me to repeat myself yet again?
        
        	/dave

    re. 9
    
    I have seen what you mean about crying in public vs. crying at home.
    My mother was upset at me for crying at my cousin's wake in front
    of all these people.  (We're supposed to be stony like Jackie Kennedy
    was in public).  But it was fine for her to cry at home because
    we were selfish brats and said "no" to her (like most kids do from
    time to time).
    
    I think it was okay for her to cry when she did.  If you've got
    to cry, then cry - whoever you are.  I feel sorry for people who
    keep it inside.  Crying is a good release of tension.
    
    	-Ellen

    	The issue of crying, especially at work, really does point
    	out some of the differences our society forces on men and
    	women. My manager(male) and I were discussing this one day
    	when I commented that someone "made me so mad I could cry".
    	He felt that while I might (and at work that is a big MIGHT)
    	not be looked down on for crying he as a man and a manager
    	would absolutely be looked down on for crying. 
    
    	I'm sure he's right too. I have a hard time even imagining
    	a man crying, much less crying at work. I have seen very few
    	women cry at work. The times I've cried I ran to the bathroom
    	to hide. As much in shame for "breaking down" as for just
    	wanting to be away from what caused the problem in the first
    	place. I've had this happen twice. Once it was cry and get
    	relief or KILL my boss (a woman). Once I had it out of my
    	system I was able to go back and tell her (in a more professional
    	manner of course) what I thought of her asking me to do filing
    	because women did it so much better than men. I was a senior
    	programmer at the time and she wanted me to do the clerical
    	work for myself and the men. I'm sure if she'd had any idea
    	I had cried about this she would have been even worse. 
    
    	Back to the orginal thought here, what would you think of a
    	man or a woman crying at work? Liesl 

    
    I'd probably wonder what was wrong.  If they asked me for help,
    I'd probably try and help them.
    
    Should there be more?
    
    DFW

    I sat in my office one day when I was very upset, and cried.  A friend came
    by and sat down and was kind and loving, which made me cry harder.
    I was mostly caught up in my feelings, but I couldn't help notice
    the reactions of people who walked by.  A couple of the men looked
    at me like I was crazy, things got very quiet in the area (just
    what I needed then...) and a few people walked by and stared.  Someone
    came in who wanted something, and tried to talk to me as if none
    of that were going on and nothing was wrong.  I could tell she was
    very uncomfortable but she just forged ahead.  
    
    I think I am perceived as a little bit moody in general (I went
    through some heavy ups and downs this fall trying to get my thyroid
    adjusted with medication).  I don't think there was any lasting
    fallout from crying at work, though.
    
    I tried to imagine someone not getting what they wanted in a meeting,
    or screwing up a presentation, and I know that they would be perceived
    very poorly if they cried.  If I were in that situation, I would
    try to leave the room if I knew I was going to fall apart.
    
    Last summer I wrote a long topic about the therapy workshops I work
    at sometimes.  At almost every workshop there are points where all
    30 or so participants in the room are all crying.  Or pounding pillows,
    or screaming.  At my first workshop this was very stressful for
    me since we are so conditioned  not to express such strong feelings
    to strangers.  But as I worked at a number of the workshops I began
    to think that everyone (men and women) have a lot of "crying" inside
    them.  The ones who can express it strongly, and get support for
    expressing it, look lighter and clearer and much more peaceful
    afterwards.  I think that the ones who can't express in some way,
    and it doesn't have to be at work, probably take it out on themselves
    in stress.  Or physical symptoms like ulcers, backaches, migraines,
    and so forth.
    
    It has been very good for me to see  whole rooms full of competent
    professional people be able to release this flood-gate of emotion.
    It's not hard for me to imagine most people I have met at DEC in
    a workshop like that.  I often think of that if I am in a room full
    of people who intimidate me in some way, and I immediately feel
    more at home.                              
    
    And just so I won't get flamed :-), I will acknowledge that I know
    there are some enlightened beings out there who don't ever seem
    to need to cry, and whose lives go just fine.  I know that sports
    help a lot of people get out pent-up physical energy and aggression
    as well as feelings.

    
    Re .14, Well, well, I guess you told me!  Imagine me having the
    temerity to ask you a question!
    
    Lorna
    

I have deleted my reply .10, not because the sentiments behind it have
changed but because it was badly worded. I still believe that statements
such as quoted in .0 are garbage because no situation involving two
humans beings in love and sex are the same.

As for *people* crying at work, regardless of sex if I found a fellow
worker emotionally upset enough to cry my first instinct would be to
help. Later I would look upon that person (still regardless of sex) as
a sensitive human being who had been hurt and not as an ineffective or
weak employee of DEC.

On a very positive note, some of my closest friendships in the work
place have been forged by such episodes in the past.

Dave.

    I (female) was crying in my office one day about a non-work issue
    and a co-worker (male) ran out across the street and got me a 'get
    better' card and an ice cream, without asking any questions.
    I was so touched, I'll never forget that gesture or that person.

    men marry women hoping they won't change
    women marry men hoping to change them.
    
    There was a psycological study done of over 1,000 babies.
    
    The girl babies looked at objects esoterically.
    The boy babies took them apart to see how they worked.
    

If I found someone crying, I'd see if I could help them (it happened to me
this morning, by the way).

I tend to cry when I get angry or frustrated, rather than yell (or just think
rationally without the tears :-)).  I've cried at work various times, in
various places.  The time I remember most was during a meeting with my current
boss and a third person.  Luckily, the third person left before I got further
than the wet-eyes stage.  The problem was my job at the time, which was not at
all what I was hired for (it was actually worse than what I was doing when I
left DEC several years ago, to give you an idea.)  I was then able to tell her
how unhappy I really was, and she gave me an opportunity to do something else.

I think a lot of times after I cry (or during the crying) I'm able to understand
better what's bothering me, and express it to the right person.  This happens
sometimes in my relationship, too; it happened this morning when I admitted to
Bill that I ate too much fruit yesterday and wasn't planning to write it down
on my diet sheet.  He was a bit hard on me (tho' later he said he was teasing)
and said he'd make me write it down.  I started crying, and saying that he
didn't understand.  He felt really bad that he made me cry, which wasn't
the point.  I told him a) I knew I wasn't doing what I was supposed to, and I
had a problem (which was really why I was crying, of course!), and b) if he
was going to "make" me write things down, I wasn't going to tell him anymore!
We ended up talking more about the "problem" and how we should handle it.  I
guess sometimes, for me, crying is a kind of ice-breaker.  A bit hard on the
eyes, though.  By the way, I ended up writing at least some of the fruit down;
for me, not for him.

Jill

        .13, .14, .19:
        
        Well, well.  After Lorna jumped on me (.19) for jumping on
        her (.14) about .13, I asked her offline exactly what this
        was all about...
        
        OK, Lorna, I publicly apologize for .14, with reservations.
        I don't think your comments directed at me in .13 were extremely
        well phrased for your intention, and I don't think I was
        entirely unjustified in interpreting it as I did, considering
        the content of my earlier reply (the number of which I've
        now forgotten).
        
        Furthermore, I think I *have* answered the question, even
        if it wasn't the question I thought it was... but maybe not
        quite so directly.
        
        I've never seen any indication of intrinsic differences because
        every difference I've ever observed or heard of between "men"
        and "women" can be countered with examples of men who behave
        as the example suggests women "should" behave, and women
        who behave as the example suggests men "should" behave. 
        
        Our particular society has always attempted to stress certain
        human characteristics as "male", and certain other human
        characteristics as "female".  Regardless of the amount of
        effort numerous people have wasted on this, they've never
        really completely succeeded.  Some people have always been
        willing to be themselves and ignore the stereotypes.  If
        they  hadn't, women wouldn't be voting, or even going to
        school.
        
        Even in *this* society, even before the recent more
        "enlightened" years, you couldn't really pigeonhole "male"
        versus "female" behavior... pointing at vague stereotypes,
        sure... but not by pointing at real people.  Not consistently
        enough for it to be meaningful.  For any observation you
        might make, you can instantly think of exceptions.  What
        kind of a rule is that?
        
        Do I think *most* men have spent more time looking for sex
        than love?  Probably.  But to be entirely honest, I'd say
        that's just as true of the women I've known.  Sex is a pretty
        strong human drive, so there's nothing surprizing about that.
        I think the difference is more that men are encouraged to
        *talk* more about sex and avoid admitting to love; while
        for women it's just the opposite, and that's what a superficial
        survey will turn up.  I tend to observe things a little more
        closely than that.  I've always stood somewhat aside from
        society, but I've watched it pretty closely... it amuses
        me! :-)
        
        	/dave

{RE .22} - Your first duplet is just another sexist clich�.

As for your psychological study, I've never heard of it; and studies with 1000
 subjects are rare enough for me to notice.  But tell me, how old were these
  babies?  One of the problems with studying sex differences in babies is that
   babies are treated according to gender expectations from day one.  So it's
    rarely accurate to take studies of babies as indicatations of innate
     differences.
      <_Jym_>