Conference turris::womannotes-v1

re: .0 (Liesl)
>    One real question here is should we, as women, allow the men's dress
>    code rules to force us to conform? Do we all want to be part of
>    the little army of suited ants trudging to work? 

I hope not. I walked by the Mt Everest conference room here in HLO awhile
back and saw a little army of men and women all dressed alike. I could only
tell the women from the men because the women were wearing skirts and the
men were wearing pants. I realize that it's important (to some degree) to
dress correctly for an occasion but *everyone* doesn't have to wear a grey
suit with a red tie.  It gets a little boring.

I'd hate to see women give up the liberty that they do have in fashion to
wind up dressing like men, who all dress alike.  Why is it so important that
everyone be the same?

I accept that people's impressions are in part determined by one's dress,
but I don't think that that's a valid criterion, so I don't worry (too much)
about it. I don't flaunt it though: I don't wear overalls or shorts to work,
and I don't wear jeans at presentations, but then I never wear a tie, and
hardly ever wear a jacket, either.

What is considered "acceptable" is fairly arbitrary; wearing the "right"
clothes makes one fit into the mold better, but doesn't make her/him any
smarter or more well-suited (ignore the pun) to do certain work. On the
other hand, I did a project with some people a couple of years ago, and I
heard that one of them said something like, "Hal's got long hair; he must be
smart." I guess that it's not bad to fit into certain stereotypes!


>    ... and she told me "Honey, whenever I see them like that I just
>    think to myself about all those little penises bouncing up and down...

They must wear jockey shorts.

					-- hal

Those bouncing penises make about much sense to me as the jeans whose
 crotches fall to the knees.  Explanation, please?
  <_Jym_>

    
    It seems to me that men in grey suits gave those suits their (slang)
    name: a power suit.    If instead of looking at these men and seeing
    them as part of a tradition of empowered and powerful men, I consider
    the 'penis' story they no longer have the mystique of the power
    suit.  In fact, the words "little penises bouncing up and down"
    has an almost cutesy ring to it which removes the (I can't seem
    to come up with quite the right words but) 'power aura' of those
    men in their grey three piece suits.
    
    Do you see now, Jym?
    
    Tamar
    

    
    I remember several years ago the "Dress for Success" book came out.
    Immediately every woman wore the bland suits with the blouse with the
    bow tie.  This is still considered the "power-look" at I*M.
    I always disliked stuctured, stiff looking suits on women.  I could never
    feel feminine in a suit like that.  But there are many different
    styles of suits and dresses that look professional without looking
    masculine and without looking like every other woman.
    I agree that there are different "dress codes" for sales, marketing
    and engineering.  Being an engineer, I am fortunate to not HAVE
    to get dressed up every day.  But I like to wear dresses, I HATE
    anything cutesy, I wear what I think looks good on me.  I hope I
    am never put in a position where I have to dress a certain way.
    This is my own personal opinion.  I feel that a person should
    wear whatever she/he feels comfortable wearing regardless of any
    norms established.  
    Just my two cents.
    
    -nancy
    

First, an anecdote:  My boss started wearing dresses, skirts and blouses, and
suits when she became an official "manager" instead of team leader.  When we
were moved from software services into field service, the men were told to
wear ties (several were still wearing the illegal jeans/t-shirts/sneakers)
even in their offices.  My boss wore slacks, a shirt, and a tie for the first
week to show the protesters it wasn't so bad, and probably to show her manager
she had guts. :-)  It partly worked; it got her boss (and probably his boss)
really mad.  No effect on the specialists, though.  Personally, I was eternally
grateful to be female and not required to be insubordinate by refusing to wear a
tie.  (We did talk about mai tais, railroad ties, and twist ties for a while.)

I started reading my boss' copy of Dress for Success a while back, but got
disgusted and stopped.  I don't want to be a marketing or sales type, or
a high-level manager, either.  I usually wear slacks and a blouse/sweater and
am perfectly comfortable sitting in my office.  I don't expect to change that
when I find a new job, hopefully in engineering.

But I do have a question.  Although the "fancy clothes" aren't everyday wear in
DEC engineering, what should I wear to an interview?

(maybe we need a "Digital guide to Dressing for Success" :-))

Jill

    At one time, I worked with a group of top field service engineers
    and *once* our manager determined that we should look professional
    and were ties, suits or sports coats.  The guys and I got together
    for a surprize for our manager.  When he came in the next day, and
    cruised through our area, he saw 32 men and myself, all in pinstripe
    suits, hair greased back parted in the middle, horned rimmed glasses,
    and some of the most *awful* ties I could find.  you see, we did
    a mass shopping trip to Goodwill (used clothing stores) and we looked
    absolutely marvalous.  I couldn't believe it, he never commented
    on our professional appearance again! ;-}

    vivian

    
    I personally can't stand women's suits (or men's suits for that
    matter).  I think it's ironic that a lot of the women (managers,
    etc.) who finally make enough money to buy all the clothes I'd like
    to be able to buy, are forced, in order to play the game, to buy
    ugly, plain suits.
    
    I've been told by a friend who was being "groomed for management"
    (not at DEC) that women should never wear pink to a meeting, or
    when giving a presentation, and that women should never wear dangling
    earrings or white stockings when wanting to "dress for success."
     She said that women in business should dress to be taken seriously
    by the men, and should not dress as though they were looking for
    a date.  I think this whole concept is ridiculous.  I don't see
    why any type of clean, neat clothing shouldn't be acceptable for
    any job.  People should be able to enjoy dressing to suit their
    own tastes and personalities and not to show upper management they're
    willing to play the game by all dressing the same in ugly, expensive,
    little suits.
    
    I'd like to see a rebellion by professional women, product managers,
    etc., who dare to show up for presentations wearing stylish dresses,
    colored stockings, long earrings, or jeans, and force upper management
    to take them seriously for what they have to say regardless of dress.
    
    It's just a fantasy I have, like no more wars.  I don't really expect
    it to happen.  It's one of those issues where people say, "But,
    that's the way it is.  You just have to go along with it."  But,
    the point is, it's wrong.  That's not the way it should be!  People
    should be able to wear whatever they want!
    
    Lorna
    

    Jym, .3 hit it on the nose. It's easy to be intimidated by someone's
    appearance if you don't remember that they are just people underneath.
    That's one of the reasons "power suits" exist. I can use my mental
    image to remind me that clothes do not really "make the man". 
    
    As I typed the above statement I realized there is no statement
    like "clothes make the woman". Not sure if that means anything or
    not. 
    
    Notes is special in that we all form our opinions of each other
    through written communication. I have noters that I really like
    and I have never seen them. Maybe if I had seen them first I would
    have an entirely different opinion of them. Would they be any
    different then they are without my seeing them? No. But I probably
    would have an opinion formed by what they wore and what body type
    they have. 
    
    I would hope that women in the business world would help change
    the image of what business people should like rather than accept
    what men have set up. It's discouraging to have to dress in certain
    ways so that men will not think you are too sexy/dumb/not serious
    and so on and so forth. It really does look like the military when
    you see a group of men all dressed alike. The grey suit and red
    tie are a cliche. Besides, if everyone is wearing a power suit who
    has the power? Liesl      

re: .10 (Lorna)
    It's just a fantasy I have, like no more wars.  I don't really expect
    it to happen.  It's one of those issues where people say, "But,
    that's the way it is.  You just have to go along with it."  But,
    the point is, it's wrong.  That's not the way it should be!  People
    should be able to wear whatever they want!

Right, and as long as nobody changes anything, nothing will change. If you
don't like wearing suits/skirts/ties/heels/whatever, but you do it anyway
because you're "supposed to", then that perpetuates the problem. I always try
to dress nicely for presentations or important meetings, but I never wear a
tie or jacket to work because I consider it to be irrelevant.

This is certainly not the first note that I've written with this message
(nor even the first in reply to this base note!), but I feel very
strongly about it.  The important issue isn't dress, or hair-length or
make-up, but personal freedom and choice, and whether or not to let others
make decisions for you, explicitly or otherwise.

Perhaps I lucked out by falling into the computer industry.  I've always
wondered if I'd be able to break the rules like this if I were in another
job.  I certainly hope so...
					-- hal

I see.  Of course, now that both sexes are wearing power suits, we'll need
 to change things a bit.  Perhaps the image of buns bouncing around, or lint
  in the bellybuttons, or something . . .
   <_Jym_>

    Several  years  ago,  I  worked  for  a  rather staid company in the 
    shipping business as an ops manager.   The  company  didn't actually 
    have  a  dress  code  -- until one day I was sent for by the company 
    chairman (equivalent to the president of an  American  company)  who 
    told  me  in  no  uncertain  terms  that  one  of  my  operators was 
    improperly dressed, and that I must send her home immediately to get 
    changed  into  proper  clothing.  The following day a dress code was 
    promulgated, that specifically only applied to the female employees.
    
    When  asked  why the chairman said that the men all wore respectable 
    clothing and didn't need a code to enforce what they did naturally.
    
    The code was still in place when I left...
    
    /. Ian .\
    
    Oh yes in case your wandering what the hapless teenager was  wearing 
    that  so  upset  the  chairman  on this hot summer's day...  she was 
    wearing a white blouse and a dark gray knee length skirt,  stockings 
    and black shoes.
    
    The problem was that she wasn't wearing a bra!

    I too recieved The Woman's Dress for Success book several years
    ago, but get upset?  I read it with a sense of humor. Even now when
    I need a good chuckle, I read a chapter or two of the book.  
    I have been color analyzed and feel much more comfortable wearing
    colors that look good on me.  One of my colors is red, and I now
    own two red suits.  My wardrobe is basically red, grey, black and
    white. I feel good in those colors, I get more complements in those
    colors, and my wardrobe is easy to mix and match. I have a couple
    of other colors that I use for accent. I feel most powerfull when
    I wear red.  

    Just a reminder from any Marketing 101 class.  Differentiation is
    the name of the game.  If it applies to products, it applies to
    people and the way they dress for business success.