Conference turris::womannotes-v1

        Discussions directly related to the raising of kids belong
        in the well-established parenting notes conference... a recent
        reply in this conference advertised it as EUREKA::PARENTING.
        Duplication in another conference would be counterproductive
        (since it's already accumulated a lot of wisdom and hot air
        which it would be a shame to overlook).
        
        Additionally (and I suppose this is also a general education
        in "use of the net"), you have access to a number of electronic
        discussions from outside of Digital, including a usenet
        "newsgroup" dedicated to raising children.  It's called
        net.kids.
        
        You can subscribe to this by sending an ordinary mail message
        to ROLL::USENET with a subject of "Subscription", and
        instructions on what to do to your subscription records (more
        information in various documents found on ROLL... type
        DIRECTORY ROLL"":: and look at the various .DOC files). 
        To have net.kids digests mailed to me on KALKIN, for example,
        I'd use the commands...
        
$ mail
MAIL> send/noedit
To:	ROLL::USENET
Subj:	Subscription
Enter your message below. Press CTRL/Z when complete, or CTRL/C to quit:
$USELIST ADD KALKIN::BUTENHOF NET.KIDS
<ctrl/z>

        That takes care of half of what you were looking for, I think.
        The other half might be more of a conference to discuss issues
        directly related to *parents* (presumably male or female...
        though women still take this role much more commonly) who
        were devoting (or planning to devote) their lives primarily
        to raising children... aside from the actual issues of raising
        children, which belong in parenting or net.kids.  This is
        obviously beginning to restrict the scope of the new conference
        a little.  Furthermore, how many "non-working" parents have
        regular access to a VAX notes conference on the Digital ENET?
        
        While, as I said, such a subject really shouldn't be specific
        to women, I'd recommend that any such discussion you'd like
        to start should be put in WOMANNOTES.  After all, if it
        weren't for the fact that women are still somewhat expected
        to fill such roles, WOMANNOTES itself would have little purpose.
        And, as you suggested, the pendulum has swung a bit too far,
        to the point where it's often considered demeaning for a
        woman to decide to devote herself to her children: that's
        a reasonable topic for this conference (which is why I started
        this! <smile>).
        
        	/dave

        Now that I'm done with the (more or less) objective assistance,
        off on the obligatory tangents and such...
        
        This conference *is* primarily directed towards having
        careers... because it was started by women who often experience
        problems in persuing their chosen careers.  Furthermore,
        it was, by necessity, created by people who *are* persuing
        careers... because (we hope) nobody else can create a conference
        on the Digital ENET to begin with.
        
        We've been really worried about how to help women get along
        in their careers, and how to break down the prejudice which
        still exists against this.  What we haven't worried much
        about is how to prevent a prejudice against people who choose
        to go the other way.
        
        We generally assume that women who stay home to "mind the
        kids" are doing so because they were forced to, by skewed
        upbringing and by a discriminatory society.  I suspect that's
        actually correct in most cases.  But there are some people
        who are making a rational decision to "stay at home", and
        we need to worry about accepting this as a legitimate career
        choice, too... be it woman or man.
        
        After all, with a few exceptions, we're all working at Digital
        because we want to be.  If we'd rather be somewhere else,
        including "with the kids", and if we can afford to give up
        the income, then that's a perfectly reasonable choice.
        
		/dave

    
    When I originally read the introduction in discussion here, I didn't
    take it quite the same way that Dave did.  (Although I guess I do
    agree pretty much with what Dave has to say so far.)  The way I
    interpreted the introduction was not so much that the person (sorry,
    forgot name) was saying that she would rather stay home and devote
    her life to raising kids (God! the mere thought of actually devoting
    my life to raising kids makes me want to run - anywhere! fast!)
    but that she is more interested in the issues that are facing all
    women today - such as, (I'm just guessing) hobbies, interests, love
    life, abortion, birth control, sexism in all aspects of life - instead
    of issues specifically connected with work.  To try to put it more
    simply, I just thought she was a person who is really more concerned
    with how she spends her time away from Dec - husband, hobbies,
    activies, interests, - than she is in talking about what goes on
    here at Dec.  That doesn't necessarily follow that she wishes she
    wasn't working and was staying home raising a troop of kids.  Maybe
    she's just more interested in the quilt she's making, novel she's
    reading, garden she works in, or the play she's seeing Friday night
    than she is in her job - those are obviously just my own imaginery
    examples since I have no idea what her interests are.  But, maybe
    *I* took it the wrong way!  I don't know.
    
    In any case, we have a number of topics in this file that don't
    have much of anything to do with Digital.  I've read through quite
    a bit of the parenting notesfile and I, personally, find it to be
    made of somewhat more conservative views than this notesfile which,
    in turn, makes it seem less interesting.  Therefore, I think that
    if somebody chooses to ask a question in womannotes concerning children
    it may be that they are looking for the liberal view, or for a new
    way of seeing an issue, which I doubt would happen in parenting.
    
    Lorna
    

    Keep in mind that the author of the original note being quoted in
    .0 stated that she hadn't yet read much beyond the topic note entitled
    "What do Women do at DEC", which if you think about it, implies
    that women's career issues are the subject at hand.
    
    The topic entitled "Introductions from Men" doesn't ask what, if
    anything, we do for a living.
    
    Having said all that, I would like to state that my wife's career
    is in the home but she is not a homemaker(?).  As a freelance
    illustrator she may spend weeks working on a book and only have
    contact with the publisher by phone or mail.  She sometimes complains
    that she misses the interaction of going off to a workplace each
    day as I do and having a social life, of sorts, at work.  Too bad
    we can't market NOTEs to all those people out there at home.

        .3:
        
        Actually, I'd originally had a paragraph in .2 explaining
        that *I* wasn't completely sure what she meant... I considered
        it somewhat ambiguous, allowing either the interpretation
        I chose to discuss, or the one you made.  Since your
        interpretation (wants to work but also interested in discussing
        the rest of life) isn't anything new to this conference,
        but the other interpretation *was* new, I chose to use that
        one to kick off what I hoped might be an interesting discussion.
        
        I lost the conference while I was entering that one, and
        then Notes crashed on me before I could save the text of
        my note, so I had to type the whole thing in again... I guess
        I missed that explanation.
        
        I'd also have to agree that if someone really wants to take a
        different slant on the subject of raising kids than is present
        in Parenting, it's perfectly legitimate to do so here... but it
        shouldn't be done without an awareness of what Parenting is
        doing (remember, there are people *there*, who might not read
        WOMANNOTES, who might be interested in whatever you say
        regarding kids and parenting!)
        
        	/dave 

    digression:
    I'm kind of surprised that people think think Parenting is conservative.
    I know there are a few conservative people there and it does lean
    heavily on the side of parenting small children. However, there
    have been some good conversations re teenagers, including one on
    birth control, and there are plenty of liberal members. (I regard
    myself as falling in the liberal camp, and I know I've seen Lorna
    StHilarie's name there, and I regard her as a bit to the left of
    me!;-) ). If you have kids, or are thinking about whether or not
    you want to have kids I'd recommend it.
    
    Bonnie
                       

    Just thought I'd add my two cents to this.
    
    I happen to know the girl who wrote .0.  I think what she is trying
    to say (or ask) is that she wants to know if there is room in this
    file for someone who's goal is something other than a business career.
    
    I think she will realize after going through the notes that it's
    not just for career minded woman.
    
    I think this file could expand a bit, though.  How about discussing
    problems at home other than career interfering with home life. 
    
    Maybe it would be getting too personal, but how about discussing
    problems in relationships, lack of communication, etc.  Or problems
    with friends.  
    
    I haven't gone through all the notes, so maybe alot of what I said
    is in here.  
    
    Well, I thought I'd write because there seemed to be alot of analysis
    over Janices (.0) note.  I didn't think it needed that much.  She
    just wanted to know that the things she's interested in can be
    discussed here too.  She not a parent yet (though, soon hopefully)
    and like one of the other notes said, she just wants to be able
    to discuss other things besides careers and so do I.
    
    Not all woman are business career orientated.
    
    Kathy

    re .8
    set flame=on
        
    Let me suggest a firm ground rule for this conference.  Women wish
    to be called women, NOT girls.  If you think of yourself as a girl
    or of any of the women in this conference as girls, then you don't
    belong here.  This conference is for adults - women and men.
    
    I don't think that this conference is overly concerned with career-type
    issues.  What I think this conference *is* is a place to share feminist
    thoughts and views.  If your concern is that women and the way the
    world is is discussed more from a *feminist* point of view rather
    than from a viewpoint that espouses traditional women's roles, then
    that is a fair assessment of this conference.  I also hope it doesn't
    change because I like this conference.
    
    For example (this is off the top of my head), the topics in this
    conference about books, poetry, and music cover the cultural side
    of feminism.  I have been greatly enjoying the topic "Sexism is
    alive and well and living at..." and also its complement, the victories
    topic.  There have been topics about women travelling alone, women
    living in other countries, the problems of women and credit, daycare,
    fundraising, raising non-sexist children, encouraging girls to take
    math courses, and missing children.  Some of us have also shared
    the confidences of our relationships.
    
    I would guess that *at least* 75% of this conference doesn't have
    *anything* to do with career issues directly.  I would also guess
    that 99% of this conference has nothing to do with celebrating the
    traditional family - stay-at-home Mom, working Dad, 2.2 kids plus
    dog.  If that's what someone wants to discuss, this is not the right
    place.

    	<Ellen>

    It's hard to imagine this conference speaking to women who stay
    at home since they (by definition) don't work at DEC and can't be
    using notes. However, many of us have spent some time doing the stay
    at home bit. I hated it. I stayed at home most of the time my hubbie
    was in the Air Farce (no , it's spelled right). Boredom was always
    a problem, not to mention lonelyness (we lived out of town). I used
    to die on nights he worked late. It warps your view on life (sorry
    that was a personal flame).
    
    Come to think of it all my women friends that have childern decided
    to remain working. Many of them could have stayed home so money
    was not the driving force. Many of us work because WE WANT TO WORK.
    I realize that's not everybody but in the technical area I think
    it's a generalisation that holds true. Liesl
     

	re .9
	
	whoa!!!

	I don't think of myself as a feminist, just a woman trying to
	live in a very complicated present, where the traditional and
	non-traditional roles of women are often at odds with each
	other.  "Feminists" are welcome, but I would hope this conference
	has room for all of us out here searching for answers, offering
	advice, or just interested in tuning in.

					Peace,
					Eileen

    I guess it is my turn to get in here and speak my mind.  For one
    thing, how can one person decide what *I* am saying in my introduction?
    I held off putting in an introduction because of the fact I did
    not want to be shot down by every who had *ALL THE ANSWERS*.  Actually,
    it is very hard for me to write this for fear I will be over loaded
    with responses from people with different beliefs than mine.
    
    For those woman who found it *BORING* to stay at home.  Well that
    was because of your situation.  I *WANT* to stay home, I think it
    will be rewarding.  I do not want to put my child in day care, *I
    WANT* to be there to see all the new things my baby will learn and
    I want to be the one to teach them.  Some peole may not like my
    attitude towards this subject, but keep in mind I may not like theirs
    and that is part of the freedom we have as Americans.
    
    In response to notes number 96.9 written by Ellen Gugel.  If you
    look up the definition of *GIRL* in the dictionary the second
    definition of girl is considered the word used as *INFORMAL FOR
    WOMAN*.  Do you know the definition of informal?  Not everyone is
    formal all the time.  Do you take offense when someone says to you,
    "What are you guys doing for lunch", or, "What did you guys do this
    weekend"?  It is just an informal way of talking.  That's all, no
    offense or questioning of anyones adulthood here.  Also, to me it
    sounds like you have been reading too many statistics in magazines.
    I mean 2.2 kids, come on, have you ever seen a .2 child?  And I
    definitely do not want a dog and what is wrong with tradition? 
    It just goes to back to what I said before, everyone is entitled
    to thier own opinion, attitude, feelings and beliefs about everything.
    I hope I did not offend you, like I felt you offended me.  I just
    think you could have refrained a little with your *HARSH* comments.
    
    I guess this will be my second and probably my last comment in this
    file.  Since I was just about point black told this *WAS NOT* the
    file for any type of discussion I was interested in.
    
    Since I found out I *AM* pregnant.  New news as of last Friday,
    YEAH!!!!!!  (I hope it is not a .2 baby, I will be greatly
    disappointed.) I will move on to other topics such as:  Babynames,
    parenting, etc...  Hopefully, I will not be interperted so fully
    there.  Maybe I will put an entry into the Friends file and find
    some people who won't make me eat my words, even though I think
    they interperted them wrong and made them sound the way *THEY* wanted
    wanted them to sound.
    
    Janice
    

    re: 96.13  I think you take the flames too personally. Notes sometimes
    get like that with no *REAL* animosity intended. 
    
    On the subject of ***GIRLS*** The objection is to the symbolism
    I'm sure and not the word itself. Just think how the men you know
    would like being refered to as the BOYS, especially in a work related
    situation. I don't know of many women who object to "you guys" that
    has become somewhat neuter in it's use. 
    
    Also, just because some of us aren't baby oriented don't think we
    don't care about the issues. I won't spend time talking about diapers
    and I hate housework but I care about how women are treated regardless
    of whether they work outside the home. 
    
    I'm something of a cynic on this but considering the divorce rate
    staying at home is pretty dangerous. Being left cold is the reality.
    
    My Mom had a tough time making it as a 50 year old divorced
    woman and she was able to go back to being a school nurse. Imagine
    how tough it is for someone who has been a homemaker for 30 years.
    
    Liesl 
                                                                        

	.13:
        
>   I guess it is my turn to get in here and speak my mind.  For one
>   thing, how can one person decide what *I* am saying in my introduction?
        
        As I said (belatedly, in .6), I wasn't really "deciding what
        you were saying in your introduction"... I was inducing a
        discussion of one interesting interpretation of what you
        said.  I probably could have done so without copying your
        introduction or mentioning you specifically, but I also wanted
        to answer the more direct questions you brought up, and this
        seemed the neatest form to accomplish all that.  If that
        bothers you, I hereby apologize.
        
        I'm strongly tempted to make more comments on your other
        points... but then, I've already said it all before in various
        notes, so I'll avoid repeating myself (listen to all those
        sighs of relief out there! :-)).
        
        	/dave

	Congratulations Janice!  Hope to see you stay with this
	notesfile (pregnancy questions welcome)!

				Eileen