Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    As a 'this isn't the way I planned it at all' mother of 4 I have
    some very strong views on the subject of birth control.  I tell
    my sons that making love requires being responsible.  And being
    responsible means that they are aware there is always the potential of
    bringing a child into the world.  And if they aren't prepared to
    take care of a child they had better be making sure they aren't
    creating one. 
    
    When I speak to my daughter I make very different points, I tell
    her that she is the first generation of women who have had the
    option/ability of planning their pregnancies and that she would
    be wise to take advantage of that.  I tell her that she is the one
    most affected by a pregnancy so that SHE is therefore the one who needs to
    be responible for her own protection against pregnancey.  
    
    She once told me she would be embarassed getting birth control aids
    or information, I asked her to think about how embarassed she would
    be in finding out and telling people she was pregnant.  That kind
    of put things in perspective for her. 
                                               
    I have taken the time to talk about the various types of birth control
    methods and their advantages and dis-advantages with my children.
    
    There seem to be lots of high school girls getting pregnant of
    late, seems like my daughter is always telling me about someone she knows
    or is friendly with who is pregnant.  I can't help but think this is
    the result of parents wanting to keep children from having sexual relations
    rather than realizing that they well may be and telling them of
    the responsibilities involved. Certainly this is the case with the
    children whose families I know.
    
    Seems like a parent needs to sort out their own feelings on this
    because just saying words will not work, they need to be clear about
    where they stand and convey that honestly to their children.  I took the
    stand that their sexuality was their own business and they need
    to be responsible about the potential of pregnancy.  I also have talked
    about love, commitment and  caring as being part of a satisfying
    relationship.
    
    If parents have some strong feelings regarding premaritial sex,
    I am not sure what would work for them, however they may need to
    compromise a little and say something like, "This is what I believe
    and why and I want you to abide by this, however if you choose in
    your heart of hearts to not, then these are some of the precautions
    you need to take".
    
    A really tough subject, however one that affects peoples lives in
    many ways. I hear of quite a few young men struggling
    to support their unexpected and unplanned for families, and with
    the economic conditions as are they are today, it is difficult.
    Seems like a pretty difficult way to start out, being young
    under-educated and with a baby.   
                                    
    Alicia

        The mentioning of the embarrassment of birth control brings up a
        related (at least in my mind) attitude that seems to be pushed
        especially towards girls and women that I see as harmful. That's
        the big deal made over "spontaneity" in sex. You see it treated
        as really a virtue in our culture.
        
        Why is it such a bad idea to have thought about having sex in
        advance? If you really care for someone and are attracted to
        them sexually, doesn't it cross your mind that it might be nice
        to have sex with them? And if you don't really care for them or
        aren't really attracted to them, what the dickens are you doing
        jumping into bed with them, especially without protecting
        against it turning into an involuntary long-term relationship.
        
        I never understood why spontaneity was such a good thing. Is it
        supposed to be a compliment to say (actually imply) "Gee, I
        never thought I'd want to go to bed with you!", or "If I pause
        now, I'll lose all my passion for you." Is sex such a bad idea
        that if you stopped to think about it you'd rule it out?
        
        But boy do we push it. Spontaneity is the greatest thing since
        sliced bread. And we seem to push it especially for women.
        They're supposed to want to be spontaneous, and men are supposed
        to want them to be. Am I missing something? 
        
        JimB.

    
    Re -1, as the mother of an extremely cute (at least I think!) 12
    1/2 yr. old daughter, I have thought about this issue lately.  I
    almost feel like putting her on the pill, saying, "I don't care
    if you have sex tomorrow or in 4 yrs., I just don't want you to
    get pregnant when you do!"  It's *very* important to me that my
    daughter get a college education and a good job before she even
    thinks about having kids.  If a woman takes the pill, and then maybe
    after having two children someday, has her tubes tied, then sex
    *can* be spontaneous without worrying about pregnancy.
    
    I realize that women really have to take responsibility for pregnancy
    since they are the ones who *get* pregnant, but I really respect
    men who have had vasectomies (?), thinking it's about time men took
    some of the burden off of women.
    
    I can only remember one time in my life (and it happened to be when
    I first met my ex-husband) when a man asked me what I did about
    birth control before having sex for the first time.  The classic
    line after having sex for the first time seems to have been, while
    raising himself up on one elbow, "By the way, what do you do about
    birth control?"  (I always thought to myself, You dummy!  It's a
    little late now to worry about that isn't it?  Fortunately, *I*
    had worried about it before.  Otherwise, I would never have gotten
    to be 37 yrs. old with only one pregnancy behind me!)
    
    Lorna
    

	Spontaneity is the classic excuse that's used in all romance novels.
	You can't help yourself, you got carried away with the moment.
	After all if you're going to tell someone that sex is bad (for women)
	than how can you have an interesting plot with sex in it?  Of
	course the better women were able to struggle away horrified at
	what they were feeling.     (what's a sarcastic face? :-] )

	Lorna, I'm glad you're talking to your daughter, but I feel
	uncomfortable about putting her on the pill since there are
	potential side-effects.  I would though, let her know where to
	get it if the need arises.  Explain that you should be on it a
	month (or was it two weeks?) before intercourse, and that waiting
	is okay.  When I met my husband, I was very attracted to him and
	could have used the closeness that intercourse can provide since
	it was during a very vulnerable time of my life.  I didn't regret
	waiting until I could see a doctor about birth control.  It was
	worth the wait, and the excitement didn't pall.

	...Karen

    I'm going to go out on a limb and open myself up to all sorts of
    accusations of sexism, but here goes...
    
    I think the issue of spontenaity may have something to do with the
    male attitude that "nice girls" don't have sex before marriage.
    And if you give them an opportunity to think about what they're
    doing, they will say "no". Thus once you have the fire stoked
    you can't pause for an instant or it'll go out.
    
    How many movies have I seen where this has happened. A couple are
    well on there way to "the good stuff" when there is some
    sort of interruption and next thing you know the women is all 
    resheveled (sorry about that) and is on her way back home (or throwing
    the guy out). 
    
    Spontenaity is just a cover-up for this attitude, but I think it
    has become so ingrained that it has back-fired. Now it is the MEN
    who, if interrupted, "lose it".
    
    Anyway, there is my 5 cent diagnosis. Sling away.
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

>    I think the issue of spontenaity may have something to do with the
>    male attitude that "nice girls" don't have sex before marriage.
>    And if you give them an opportunity to think about what they're
>    doing, they will say "no". Thus once you have the fire stoked
>    you can't pause for an instant or it'll go out.
    
Sling away???? God, no.  You just said exactly what *I* was going to say!
It's a way of explaining away the guilt, of not having to take responsibility
for what you've done, and I see girls using it as much as boys (I'm reducing
the age because I think of it in the context of teens -- at my age I'm too
old to kid myself into believing that I would "lose control" and throw
caution (and birth control) to the wind!)...

My young cousin, whose mother professes an open mind on such things, asked
me about birth control clinics and if the people there will tell parents
about young patients.  She asked me about it because while her mother tells
her to come to her to discuss it, as soon as she does she gets judged for
it -- I know, I've seen the two of them in action.

A little discussion revealed that my cousin had earlier tried sex and
didn't like it, but had another encounter with a boy, found it alot more
fun, and was NOW starting to think about consequences.

When I asked her why she didn't think of it before she had sex, she said
that it was "all too sudden" and things happened too fast for her to stop
it.

I find it hard to believe that having had sex once before, the possibility of
a second time with a boy she found sexually attractive hadn't crossed her mind.

I answered her questions as best I could and then suggested that since was
"coming of age" (16) that she had better realize that if she was old enough
to be "swept away" she was old enough to realize that it might happen again,
and that motherhood could cause a serious change in her life plans!!!!

I don't know if she's emotionally mature enough to think "Sex is good and
I like it, so maybe it's okay to plan for it..." but she sure as Hell is
thinking about it!

I also lauded Alicia's efforts with her daughter.  I plan on making my sons
understand that they are as responsible for birth control as their female
partners (any other partners don't need it, I guess!) but I sure plan on
warning my daughter not to leave her future up to some guy!!!  A good friend
of my husband's once told me "Whoever does the worrying owns the problem.."
and whoever owns the problem is the one who's going to be the most effective
at working at it.

I guess I'm just being cynical about it.  I just don't think a guy, who
could NEVER be faced with the problem, could really understand the sense of
isolation and despair hitting a pregnant teenager...  or a pregnant-any-woman-
facing-the-future.

Bugsy

    Sigh.  Keep the communication lines open as long as you can!  You can't
    prevent your teenagers from having sexual intercourse, and you can't
    force them to use birth control even if they have it or understand the
    consequences or whatever.  You can let your teenagers know that they
    can talk about it, they can acknowledge having sexual feelings (or not
    having them with a date that might expect them to...).  At any rate,
    that they can talk to you even if they have actually done it, whether
    they got pregnant or not.  Or, if they don't want to give in to peer 
    pressure, that that's okay too.
    
    I have heard stories about teenagers who had birth control items or access 
    to birth control who, when asked why they didn't use birth control,
    replied that it wouldn't have been as much fun!  As if taking 
    responsibility for sex would decrease spontaneity or fun.  Again, I
    feel that knowing you will receptive to them is a definite positive.
    I mean, being able to acknowledge physical attraction is not a sin!
    Making a conscious decision to be prepared does not attract from
    "spontaneity."  Making a responsible decision should be rewarded.  The
    "I can get away with this" aspect should be de-emphasized somehow.
    
    I got very mixed messages from my parents as a teenager.  My father
    offered to buy me the pill if I ever met someone I wanted to have sexual
    relations with (this was about 11th grade), but they made it very clear
    that I would be a family and social outcast if I did.  No joke!  Nice
    girls do not have sex with boys and they certainly don't acknowledge having
    any feelings about it!  Talk to them about the funny, mixed, physical
    and emotional feelings about it?  Hmmph!  BTW, I did not have any sexual 
    relations before I was married, on the other hand, I got married when I
    was 17!
                    
                    
							Terza
        

Hmm this discussion brings back some memories.  I was a youth director (oh
no! it's out.  He really is one of those Christers!) at a very progressive
southern Baptist church (Yeah, I know it sounds like an oxymoron, but this
was one of the very first SB churches to have black members, women deacons,
a pacifist preacher, a policy limiting building, etc).  Most of the kids
were the children of professionals and/or professors.  At least some of
them were sexually active (Actually, all of them were sexually active, just
some them hadn't gotten around to doing anything about it.  Long bus trips
tended to be somewhat of a circus.) I was lucky in that these kids and
their parents were pretty bright and willing to get involved in fairly deep
discussions. 

I talked to my kids about decisions in the abstract, they talked to me about
sex, drinking, raising hell.   We went together from there.  The two topics
we kicked around again and again were sex and drugs (booze and MJ mostly). 

The tack that they seemed to understand the most was that they were under
tremendous pressure to grow up, to be adults and to act like adults.  Some
of that pressure came from their parents, (Why can't you be more
responsible?) and some from their friends (Go ahead take a hit, what are you
a baby?).   A lot of that pressure is not appropriate.  The thing I tried
to help them see was that some of their decisions could relieve part of that
pressure, and some of their decisions could increase that pressure.  And
that it was o.k.  to be a teen-agers, not quite an adult, but definitely not
still a child.  Choices to be made.  Despite what our culture says, being a
teen agree doesn't put one outside of the inertia of time.  Being a teen
agree is part of the process of being a human being and we go on being human
beings a long time after we stop being teenagers.

At one point I got one of the younger adult couples (23-24 years old) to
bring in all the bills they had to pay in a month.  Then I had my kids
assess how much they could make if they had to go to work full time right
then, and draw up a budget to meet the real life bills the couple had
brought in. Did the same thing with an older couple and made them work from
the assumption that they had gotten thrown out of high school for drugs.
How much would they be earning?  What life style would they want?  What if
they had quit school because they got pregnant (lots of boy snickers at
this point)?  What would they want for their kids?  Could they afford it? 

The kids got pretty depressed until they worked around to seeing that there
were obvious ways around the bleak end.   And that they mainly involved
taking on an appropriate amount of responsibility for a teen agree, so that
they wouldn't have to take on a full adult load of responsibility before
they had the financial, credential, and experiential (drum roll please)
means to shoulder those responsibilities. 

"You mean we should just say no." was the rather disgusted reply.

An appropriate amount of responsibility might mean saying "No. I don't want
to deal with that yet." or it might mean saying Yes (oh sweat yes!) in a
way that limits the consequences.

"Like birth control" a boy and girl said almost simultaneously.  Lots of
laughter and finger pointing,  their two parents in the room looking more
than a bit surprised. 

Yes, like birth control.  It may not be spontaneous, but then neither are
2:00 am feedings, or poverty.  I'm a big believer that a major part of
growing up is learning to deal with the fact that a great deal of life is
not spontaneous.  It's a crazy bad world and if our lives are something to
savored and enjoyed that we have to make that happen.  Mom and Dad won't
always be around.  They can't do it for us. (Parent's retiring isn't
something you have to talk to kids about, but it's something I'm dealing
with now, really scary for some reason).

Sex and drugs so often become isolated decisions and without any context
it's very difficult for kids (or adults for that matter) to say no to
pleasure (or acceptance if that's whats really involved).  The question to
often isn't "Who am I, is this the kind of person I want to be; the kind of
life I want to live; the kind of life I prepared to live?" but rather
"What's the big deal?  It's fun."  Kid's should begin learning to make
value based decisions early on.   The process doesn't magically begin when
a kid's hormones start acting up. 

I let those kids know that I was all for fun.  But sometimes keeping things
fun involves some work and planning.  I didn't and don't think teen agers
(12-18) are ready emotionally for sex (and we never are ready for drugs but
that's another polemic).  However, they're a whole lot less ready for
families, bills, housekeeping.  If they do say yes to sex (or booze) they
are responsible (regardless of gender) for making all the other implicit
decisions (Birth control--yes,no,who,what; Drinking when to stop, how to
get home).  If they can't make those implicit decisions or aren't even
aware of them then they're not ready to make the first one. 

Handling Sex and drugs are the first really big decisions our kids make.
I tried to teach my kids how to approach decisions, not what choice to make.
I tried to teach their parents that learning decision making means
sometimes making bad choices, and that it might be more helpful to work
with their kids after a bad choice than to be part of the big bad world
crashing in on top of those kids.

I made it clear what choices I had made (Still a virgin then though it didn't
last till marriage) and why.  But also made it clear each of them had to
make an individual decision.  Their parents didn't have to live with the
choice and neither did their friends (not strictly true in either case).
We can teach values or the we can teach the formation of values.  The two
processes aren't mutually exclusive, but you have to teach the acquisition
of value before you can teach value itself (don't necessarily try this
with a two year old).  

Well, hose me down.  It's time to stop.  Love those kids.  Love 'em enough
to let 'em grow up.  At their own rate.  God damn it's hard.  Sound's like
you brave folks are working at it though.  

I'm at that point where I really don't have anything intelligible left to
say but feel like there is so much more to be communicated.  

-Byron

    I remember getting so many mixed messages.  I had no desire to have
    sex until I was 19, fairly late compared to my friends.  
    
    My father had raged at me from age 14 "YOU WILL NOT HAVE SEX!  DO
    YOU HEAR ME?"
    
    (But Dad, I don't want to do anything like that.  Even kissing boys
    is uncomfortable for me now.)
    
    "I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU WANT!  YOU WILL NOT HAVE SEX BECAUSE I AM
    TELLING YOU YOU WON'T".
                           
    The ironic thing is that I would have if I had wanted to, and if
    I had known somebody I cared a lot about, I would have.  I just
    happened not to meet anybody I liked that much.  I think he was
    trying to do the best he could, using his authority, but it's not
    an approach I would recommend.  We had the same conversation about
    drugs.
    
    My mom had a more subtle approach.  She said that I didn't even
    have to tell her, but that I should just take myself to a doctor
    and get whatever I needed.  I said that I would if and when the
    time came.
    
    So at the age of 19, I naively went to a doctor (this was 1971)
    and asked to be put on the pill.  It was HORRIBLE!  He quizzed me
    about my boyfriend, how long we had known one another, how often
    we had sex, when we planned to get married (I lied and said in 3
    months), and did my parents know about this.  After all that, he
    gave me a lecture, talked about sin, basically told me I was no
    better than a whore, and refused to give me anything.  It was one
    of the most upsetting things that had ever happened to me.  Luckily,
    my cousin recommended a more sympathetic doctor, and went with me
    for the whole appointment, and I got what I needed.
                                                       
    One other thing I have been wondering about--do teenagers today
    feel affected by the AIDS epidemic?  Does it make a difference in
    the amount of sexual activity that parents are seeing?  Are AIDS
    data and safe sex practices a part of sex education?  
    Heterosexual teenagers who are extremely sexually active seem to
    be at great risk to me.
    
    

From the latest issue of the "Zero Population Growth Reporter":

	A recently completed study of 3400 junior and
	senior high school students ages 12 to 18
	reveals some interesting comparisons about
	students who had access to a sex education
	program and birth control clinic, and
	students who did not. According to the Johns
	Hopkins University study: 

	Girls who were not sexually active before
	they participated in the sex education
	program remained virgins for nearly a year
	longer than girls not in the program. 

	In three years, pregnancies among girls in
	the program decreased 30 percent, while
	pregnancies in the other group went up 58
	percent. 

	Unprotected intercourse among girls in the
	program dropped to under 20 percent. As many
	as 49 percent of the girls not in the program
	had unprotected sex. 

    
    Re .9, I had an experience very similar to Holly's the first time
    I went to get a prescription for the pill.  It was 1971 and I was
    21.  The doctor was a male about 55-60 yrs. old.  He also lectured
    me about morals, marriage, etc.  He did give me the prescription,
    but as I was leaving, he helped me on with my coat and made a pass
    at me!  I was mortified!  It seemed clear to me that, as an unmarried
    woman of 21 with no marriage plans going on the pill, he considered
    me to be a slut.  In these hopefully enlightened times I hope nothing
    like this happens anymore.
    
    As for my mother, she was hopelessly old-fashioned.  She is 73 yrs.
    old today.  Probably a bit older than the parents of most people
    reading this.  When I was a teenager she told me outright never
    to go parking with a boy in a car because they would try to get
    me to do "dirty things" that I "wouldn't like at all".  She went
    on to tell me that if I ever got pregnant just don't "come running
    to her".  (This appalls me when I think about it now.  I want my
    daughter to know that she can always come to me, no matter what
    she does, even if it's just to talk or cry.)
    
    My mother and I finally had it out when I was 21.  I was dating
    my ex-husband and living at home.  I had stayed out with him all
    night on several occasions and she finally confronted me.  She said,
    "I just want you to know that I know what you're doing and I don't
    like it!  It's wrong!"  I said, "I'm sorry we disagree but I don't
    think there's anything wrong with it, and I'm going to keep on doing
    what I want."  She's progressed some in her thinking since then.
     It doesn't seem to bother her at all when unmarried people live
    together.  She just takes it in stride.  But, is still disgusted
    with single people who have multiple sex partners.
    
    I'm glad to think that we finally live in a society which realized
    that single women have just as much right to sex lives as single
    men have.  I hope that the "nice girls don't" philosophy is gone
    forever.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    Re .2, Jim, although I have disagreed with some things you have
    written in notes such as divorce in human_relations, I tend to agree
    with a comment you made here.  You said "if you don't really care
    for them or aren't really attracted to them, what the dickens are
    you doing jumping into bed with them, especially without protecting
    against it turning into an involuntary long-term relationship."
     This is something that *I* have never been able to understand either.
     Maybe I'm just hopelessly romantic in that I would always prefer
    to have sex with people I care for, or (heaven forbid!) maybe I'm
    just undersexed compared with average person.  But, it seems to
    me from observing and talking with friends and acquaintances over
    the years that many, if not most, people think nothing of jumping
    into bed with people they don't particularly care for.  Indeed,
    I think it is true that many instances of spontaneous sex would
    never have occurred if the people involved had "stopped to think
    about it".  It just seems to me that some people consider sex to
    be something you do with people you are very interested in, attracted
    to or in love with, and some people consider sex to be something
    you do with just about anybody you happen to be around when the
    mood strikes you.  Discovering this was probably one of the most
    painful experiences of *my* life so far - finding out that a person
    you are deeply infatuated with considered you to be a "one night
    stand" can be quite a blow to a relatively inexperienced young woman.
     (Which I once was.)  I guess almost all single adults experience
    what could be called casual sex at some time or other, but some
    people seem to be comfortable with this and others, like myself,
    tend to wish casual sex never really happened.  
    
    The different levels of significance people place on sex was recently
    brought home to me when I asked a friend (aged 35) how old he was
    the first time he actually spent the night with a woman (a whole
    night).  He said that he honestly couldn't remember - how old he
    was, who she was, or what the specific incident was.  I am not judging
    this.  I am only saying that to me such an event would be far too
    significant to ever forget.
    
    I have trouble understanding why kids are interested in having sex
    so young today, and it kind of makes me feel like an old foggy.
     But, in my day (graduated high school 1967) it seemed like most
    girls I knew started experiencing sex at 17-18.  But, today it seems
    to be just as common for girls to start having sex at the ages of
    13-14.  I am uncomfortable with this and it bothers me that I am.
     I just can't understand why they are all interested in sex at such
    an early age today when I wasn't that interested in it until I was
    about 20.  Does anyone else have any thoughts about this?
    
    However, of course, I agree that if kids that young are going to
    have sex they should use birth control.  I just can't really understand
    why kids are interested in sex so young today.
    
    Lorna
    

    RE: .12  "sleeping around"
    
    Don't think I'm being a nitpicker when I ask you to be careful about
    the use of euphamisms like "spend the night together", "slept with",
    etc.  As a relative late bloomer in developing sexual relationships
    with women (I'm talkin' mid-20s here) I can remember several women
    who I slept in the same bed with, sometimes on more than one occasion,
    without doing anything sexual, simply holding each other comfortably
    and cuddling.

    
    Re .13, I don't mean to nitpick either but I don't think I actually
    used the term "sleeping around" although I may have been talking
    about that subject.  I think "sleeping around" is a very relative
    or should I say subjective or personal term.  In other words, it
    could be possible that somebody might say that they think Person
    A "sleeps around" but Person A may not think so because Person A
    actually cared for and was interested in all the people he/she "slept
    around" with, and therefore may not consider it to have been "casual
    sex" which is the term I used.  Also, I guess I was talking about
    incidents where people actually *do* have sex not just slept in
    the same bed together.  (Which by the way is something that has
    only happened to me in relatively long term relationships.  I guess
    we just aren't all blessed with the same amount of self-control
    :-).)
    
    Lorna
    

    
    	The interest has a lot to do with whats being presented to young
    people in the media - what is cool, ect. Try an experiment. Turn
    on the TV, tune it into one of the hotter shows that the kids like
    (especially MTV), and turn off the sound. Just look at the pictures
    as they flash by. I bet you start to see some pretty surprising
    things....
    
    	A persons sex-drive is very periodic; lets say on a "monthly"
    cycle. For the average person, things start to change and sync up
    with the rythms of nature at roughly the age of 13-14 years. From
    my own experience, sexual energy does indeed have the property of
    momentum - once things get "rolling"...Put it all together with
    a big dose of curiosity and insecurity and things become clear -
    as far as where young people get their "interest"
    
    	Joe Jas
    

    I realize that I was definitely not a typical teenager. During my
    teens, I don't recall any interest in boys, mostly 'cause they were
    stupid and I wasn't. I was interested in sex, but in a purely clinical
    manner. (My SO just said, he's glad I've changed ;-).
    
    However, I was VERY, VERY certain that before I even contemplated
    having sex with someone, I would do something about birth control.
    I couldn't understand my friends who didn't and then got pregnant.
    Talking to them was like talking to a stone wall. If they hadn't
    gotten pregnant, they were sure it couldn't happen to them, despite
    the evidence to the contrary all around in school. If they had
    gotten pregnant, boy, did they wish they had thought about birth
    control.
    
    I have no idea if girls today are still as dumb as my friends were,
    but it seems like it. There is still the attitude that if you plan
    for or think about having sex, then you are a BAD girl and if it
    just happens, then it's OK and nothing bad will happen to you, because
    you didn't plan to be bad and have sex.
    
    All I can do is shake my head. I went on the Pill 5 or 6 months before
    I ever had sex. I just knew I would want to sometime soon and should
    take care of birth control ahead of time. I decided that I would never
    let anyone else take responsibility for what happened to my body. I
    really don't know where I got this good sense. In my own family, I am
    the only one who showed this kind of forethought. 
    
    I just don't understand. Why is being so stupid considered appropriate
    for teenagers? Why isn't it OK to think seriously about something
    you're already thinking about doing anyway? And how can we help
    to change things? (Sometimes I feel a bit guilty that I won't be
    having any kids to raise, I just have to borrow other peoples.)
    
    Tamzen
              
    

    It appears to me that one reason that teens do not worry so much
    about using something to prevent pregnancy is because the attitude
    seems to be if they were to get pregnant they would just have an
    abortion.  It is so easy (and I believe relatively inexpensive)
    for a teen to get an abortion.  All they have to do is call a clinic,
    get an appointment and they can be in and out in time to be home
    for dinner without parents even knowing.
    
    Even when I was in high school (I'm 26 now) it was not uncommon
    for girls to have had at least 1, if not 2 or 3, abortions by the
    time they graduated.  And I went to a school in a community that
    consisted of primarily mid to upper class families, and where the
    school consistently receives 'marks of excellence' awards - I only
    include that to show that it happens in all 'walks of life'.
    
    It seems to me that many teens are using abortion as a mean of birth
    control in itself.
    
    -alison 
    
    
                                                              
    

    .re 17:  Let me correct you here.  It is NOT easy for a teen to
    get an abortion in Massachusetts!  An underage girl must get
    persmission from *both* parents in order to have an abortion.  If
    that is not possible, then *she* herself (a frightened, pregnant girl of
    15, 16, or 17) must go before a Massachusetts state judge and ask
    for permission to have an abortion.  It seems to me that this violates
    that girl's constitutional rights.
    
    Personally, I'd have to say that females who *most* need access
    to abortion are our young girls.  Otherwise, it's poverty-city for
    mother and baby and you-know-who supporting them.

    
    	-Ellen G.

re:  Note 90.17

>    Even when I was in high school (I'm 26 now) it was not uncommon
>    for girls to have had at least 1, if not 2 or 3, abortions by the
>    time they graduated.  

This is quite horrific! Many years ago I used to counsel young people and
found the majority of girls were deeply affected both before and after an
abortion, REGARDLESS of how easy it was to get the abortion. The young men
involved also were affected emotionally in that the had put the girl at
risk.

Dave.

    re: Note 90.17
    
    I have a problem believing 2 and 3 abortions is common in high school.
    I graduated high school in 68 and knew no one who had an abortion.
    Even as an adult I know of only a few friends who have done so.
    Most of those young girls have the baby and live in poverty. Liesl

    Well, I know several girls who got pregnant while still in high
    school.  One of them had an abortion (against her boyfriend's wishes
    since he wanted to marry her) and promptly went on the Pill.  The
    other one had 3 abortions, 2 in high school and one after that.
    She didn't believe in using the Pill because she felt it was
    introducing something un-natural into her system (she has always
    been a health food nut), and she didn't like the other available
    methods.  I never understood how she thought that aborting was better
    than being on the Pill or using some other method, since abortion
    can have some negative affects on a woman's body, but that's how
    she thought.
    

    I seem to be associating with people similar to the people .20
    associates with.  I only knew of one girl who had an abortion while
    in high school.  She was very upset about the whole thing, as she
    got pregnant while drinking, and didn't particularly even like the
    boy who got her pregnant.  She also promptly went on the pill, just
    in case that ever happened again.
    
    Maybe this has something to do with the fact that I went to high
    school in a working class, predominately Catholic area.  Maybe it
    is easier for girls in upper-middle class areas to get abortions,
    or it is more acceptable to them.  I don't know...
    
    I only have talked to a few women who have had abortions as adults
    as well.  Most of the one's I've talked to seem to be sufficiently
    upset by the abortion they had to take lots of precautions as to
    not need another.
    
    Elizabeth

    I come from a family where the word sex was never spoken or made
    refrence to. I was told nothing by my parents. When my daughter
    was born, I told my mother that I was going to tell her everything
    as soon as she was old enough to understand.  My daughter and I
    have a very open relationship. When she was away at college, she
    called and asked me to make an appointment with the Gyn clinic so
    that she could get the pill on her next school break. When she came
    home, we had a serious discussion about her social activities at
    school. She said "Oh I don't have a boyfriend, I am the only one
    in my dorm that isn't taking the pill." We decided that wasn't a
    good enough reason to ingest extra hormones, and she didn't fill
    the prescription. 
    
    She has since graduated from college, and still has not found it
    necessary to use birth control.  Don't get me wrong, she has had
    several boyfriends, she says because of the discussions we had when
    she was in Jr High and High School she has learned to enjoy the
    company of the opposit sex with out the intimacy. 
    
    I know this won't be for ever but nothing beats open and frank
    conversations with teenagers. My daughter and I are open with each
    other about everything, but you have to develope this kind of
    relationship when the child is very young. One way is to be positive
    in your discussions.  I never told her not to have sex relations.
    I've never told her not to drink or smoke, I just talk a lot about
    the results.  The way I approached the birth control thing was to
    tell her, when she felt she had reached a point in her life where
    sex was to become an active part, let me know and I would help her
    select the best method of birth control.

    Speaking of the "etiquette" of birth control, here's the topper.
     I have a friend, married for about seven years, who is pregnant
    with her FOURTH unplanned child (all within the marriage).  These
    are not uneducated, ignorant people -- her husband has a college
    degree and she's got a lot of common sense.  But from what I can
    gather, it's simply been a matter of using less effective birth
    control methods, because something effective and safe (like a diaphragm
    used properly) is not "spontaneous" enough.  So methods that don't
    interfere with the moment (such as foam, quick and easy to use)
    but are not very effective have been used.  
    
    After the 3rd child, there was talk about a vasectomy or a tubal
    ligation, but nothing was done.  Neither of them wanted to take
    the responsibility, so the potential for another pregnancy was ignored.
    Now they are expecting again (with a 5, 3 and 1 year old).

    I find this behavior, and the complaints and bitching about the
    results, very childish, and have a hard time listening to the tales
    of woes of my supposedly adult friends.   My husband and I have
    not had an unwanted pregnancy, because we are willing to put a little
    effort into making sure we don't.  And, yes, every method can fail,
    but four times in a row?
    
    G