Conference turris::womannotes-v1

    Leslie,
    I was younger when this happened, but maybe it'll help.
    For a while, I was the best math student in my class.
    One of my female friends approached me one day, and 
    trying to be helpful, said "Liz, you shouldn't do so
    well in math. The boys won't like you.".  Fortunately,
    I chose to ignore her advice, but I did think about it
    for a while.
    
    liz

    You may want to point out that math is not the only way into the
    computer world. I never did like math (I'm a musician turned computer
    jock) and I ended up a VMS technical support specialist. Yeah, they
    should take math and science (I did take the courses actually, I
    just was only a C student) but that's not all that's involved. Just
    let them know that not only A students succeed in this world. Liesl 

	    Obviously, the way to counter "the boys won't be interested
	in you" is to portray members of both sexes doing math homework
	together.  Of course, this may have the opposite of the desired
	effect on girls who don't want boys interested in them.
	    For effect, you have to appear "with it."  Don't portray
	perfectly-well-groomed actors; high school kids will just see
	that as adult propaganda (-:).
			<_Jym_>

    Give them some specific examples of what engineers do etc.  When
    I was a senior in high school, everyone told me to be an engineer,
    but no one could tell me what an engineer did.  I swore that I would
    never go into engineering, but once in college, I found that mechanical
    engineering was just perfect for me.  So give those young ladies
    some concrete examples, and show them how having the basic math
    and science courses will just give them a better choice in what
    they want to do.  They may not choose a technical career, but by
    taking those courses, at least they will get the choice.
    
    Something that my junior high school did with the college prep classes
    was to have everyone (boys and girls) take typing instead of home
    ec and wood shop.  That gave us all a skill that was quite useful
    in college (and save a lot of $$ since you could type your own papers).
    
    Cathy

Forego the math stuff -- everyone has enough math anxiety and as an engineer,
I can count in binary, octal, decimal, and hexidecimal, but all I need is
add, subrtract, multiply, and divide (and a little help from Hewlett-Packard)
to figure ANYTHING out!!!!  The idea that you need alot of math for this
job is really a myth.  I'm a system's programmer and I don't really need it.

When I was in 9th grade, I made a near-fatal error (or so I was told) in
which I left the college course for the business course.  I was told that
I could NOT go to college because I was in the business course.  SO I
panicked, started at square 1 in the college course in the 10th grade,
and worked twice as hard as everybody else just to catch up.

Then I found out that I could have easily gotten into college because the
SAT scores that I had in 9th and 10th grade were what they looked at....
as long as I passed the required SAT's I was set.

I took every word that an adult told me as gospel.  Instead of listening 
to myself and doing what I was interested in doing, I did what I was told.

Explain to the kids (in case they don't already know it) that computers
are EVERYWHERE!!!!!  Practically every business uses them.... and it's
the folks who know how to use them that are in demand.

The obvious ones are journalist, engineer, and scientists.
Want to be a research assistant?  Learn graphing and data sheets for
	biomedical research.  All the data is stored on computers and
	analyzed there.
Want to be a film editor?  Computers are used to make Max Headroom-like
	images and the special effects on videos and such (Max Headroom,
	by the way, is a very popular computer-generated image).
Want to be a CPA?  Learn spreadsheets and accounts payable/receivable.
Want to be a business manager?  
Want to be a stockbroker?  Computers are used to track statistics and
	stock quotes, and are used for instant processing of buys
	and sales of stocks and CD's and such.
Wanna be a secretary in demand?   Learn word processing.

I don't envy you this job.... but try to enjoy it!!!

Bugsy

    I was one of those that just didn't fit in.  Everyone kept telling me
    how incredibly bright I was, and that with an IQ of 140-150 I could
    do anything I wanted.   I couldn't even pass Algebra I.  I had to
    take it twice, and only got a C the second time.  I scraped through
    Geometry with a D-, and the teacher only passed me so he wouldn't
    have to teach me again.  Unfortunately, he got my Algebra II class
    the next year.  He became ill, however, and a wonderful student
    teacher who liked me very much and who taught the class very
    innovatively took the class over for 2 quarters.  He required mastery
    of a given concept, but you could take however long you needed to
    master a particular concept.  You could take tests over if you felt
    like you had learned more about the concept at a later date.
    
    And I got my first two A's in math ever! 
    
    But I was terrified of math.  I refused to even listen to anyone
    who suggested a career where I had to take even one more math course
    ever.  I decided to become a music teacher.
    
    Much, much later I discovered that I had an auditory perception
    learning disability as well as a memorization related learning
    disability.  I found out that I was perfectly capable of *doing* math,
    and my success in a math class was completely dependent on how it
    was taught.  And how students were tested.  I finally began to believe
    in how bright I was, and to consider some other alternatives for
    myself.  
    
    I loved teaching, but after 5 years I was longing for some challenge
    and stimulation...so here I am at DEC in an entry level job at age
    34. I know I can go places I never dreamed of in high school.
    
    So my messages are:
    
    It's never too late to do the right thing for yourself.  Few people
    ever choose a career path once and for all.  Sometimes you just
    have to try a few out and go back to school if necessary.
    
    If you are supposedly bright, but not doing too well in school,
    stop blaming yourself--unless you KNOW you've been goofing off--and
    start asking for help.  Don't settle for fewer choices in the long
    run than you deserve.  Ask for an evaluation.
    
    In many ways, high school (and junior high) are the most DIFFICULT
    times in peoples' lives.  In college people have a lot more freedom
    to study what interests them, and a lot more free time.  If you
    are having hassles with parents, those things will change a lot
    if you can make it to college and beyond.  Your world seems so small
    in high school--hang in there!  It gets so much easier, and so much
    better.  If social problems are painful, consider that you will
    never again have to spend that much time with people you don't choose
    to be with, taking classes you didn't choose.
    
    Enough sounding off!  Good luck with the video.  If anyone wants
    some basic information on learning disabilities (a bibliography
    of sorts) and you don't have another source for such information,
    feel free to send me mail.
    
    Holly

    re .8
    
    It may be true that as programmers we don't use math in our jobs,
    but these high schoolers *should* take it to make their entry into
    college and an engineering major easier.  Today's world is so
    competitive that we should not discourage kids, especially girls,
    from taking it.  I wouldn't want someone in your position telling
    9th and 10th graders what you just posted in reply 8 (the part about
    math not being necessary).  It could hurt them in the long run.
    And sure, many people overcome the lack of having taken math courses
    (such as yourself), but I maintain that taking in the first place
    makes the road smoother for an engineering/programming career.
    
    	-Ellen G

    I'm afraid Ellen is right.  SAT scores are verbal AND math.  And
    in some colleges, not matter what major you may be PLANNING on taking,
    they BOTH count. (gosh I love that caps lock!)
    
    However, I think the support/enthusiasm tack is the way to go. 
    Kids hear so many statistics and third person case histories.  Snore!
    Be immediate and excited; talk about yourself!
    	Mez

    Math is important once you get into an engineering program too.
    This is my biggest complaint with the college that I went to.
    All the engineering tests required the students to crank a
    LARGE amount of algebra to answer the questions.  It is done this
    was because math is easier to grade.  I don't think that the
    best engineers got the best grades because of it.
    
    I have done almost no math since I left engineering school.
    I think that the math requirement for electrical and mechanical
    engineering and computer science is THE method by which women
    are kept out of these professions.  Seeing as math skills are
    not needed to do a lot of the work, I think that schools should
    find a better method of judging who is qualified to for it.
    
    To do otherwise is like telling someone that they are too tall to be an
    engineer.  Math skill are not always important.
    
    						MJC O->

        When I was a kid, I was a whiz at math. Lots of ability. I had a
        terrible time learning moderately complex co�rdinated physical
        tasks (learned to ride a bicycle at 16-17, drive a car at
        24-25). I'm mildly dyslexic and have a hard time getting things
        in sequence correctly. In high school I took piles of science
        courses, darned near flunked German, and avoided soft sciences.
        
        Come college it occurred to me that I really don't like math. I
        majored in Philosophy with a second major in social psychology 1
        course short of completion. I took no math at all in college and
        only two science courses (required for a degree). So what if
        they were easy--I didn't like them. I loved philosophy. 
        
        So obviously I became a programmer! Seemed obvious. I have no
        math above high school algebra and trig. I can't type with two
        hands 'cause my fingers fall over each other. (I type with my
        right hand and left index finger.) I still garble sequences, but
        have to type all sorts of meaningless mnemonics in without
        reversing the letters. I can't tell IF from FI! 
        
        The point of the rambling is, I think that, despite the fact
        that many of my weaknesses are important to my job, and I really
        didn't train my strengths very much, and my education doesn't
        match my job terribly well, I've moved up the engineering ladder
        pretty quickly because I LOVE WHAT I'M doing. That's THE most
        important thing, I'm convinced. Look into your heart. What do
        you WANT to do? What do you enjoy doing? Find it and have at it.
        
        JimB.

    
    
    		< Learn to love learning >
    
    Like many of the previous responders I did not DO math, I have a
    learning problem and my education did not lead me to my present
    job <read opportunity to play>.
    
    I took no, not one math course in High School and only the math
    course required to graduate in college.
    
    But I have learned to love learning for the sake of learning and
    an able to understand complex and solve complex problems by the
    a is to b as b is to c method - relations.  
    
    Probably you will only reach a few of the kids you address but those
    few are important and if you present yourself as a positive person
    that is what will be rememberd and you will be a role model.  Though
    the kids may not remember what the role was they will remember a
    positive speaker who was female and not false.
    
    		_peggy
    
    VOTE NO ON #1 - PRO-CHOICE IS PRO FREEDOM
    

One thing I remember from high school is my desire to please my parents at 
the cost of not enjoying what I was doing. In high school I took all of the 
most technical math and science courses. My parents encouraged me to go 
into medicine or computers, "where the money is." What I really wanted to 
do was to be an English major. I took me all of high school and one year of 
college to realize I couldn't go on pleasing them anymore, and I was strong 
enough and smart enough to get out of the pre-med rat race and switch my 
major to English.

I did well in college because I love English. I'm incredibly lucky to make 
a good living with an English degree as a writer here. So, I'd tell the 
young women in high school to be careful about choosing a path, to make 
sure they do it for themselves, and to not fold under parental pressure.
There are a lot of women (I know a few) who were pressured to become 
engineers and follow in Dad's or Mom's footsteps. Yes, there are opportunities 
in science and engineering, but be sure your motivation is because that's 
what YOU want to do.

Lisa

        When I was thinking about college, I naturally used my father
        as a major resource (he's Eastman Kodak's Director of
        Personnel).
        
        He said "major in engineering".  It doesn't matter what you want
        to do (although the fact that I was interested in computers
        already was a factor)... as an experienced corporate personnel
        person, it was his opinion that, more than anything else, a
        background in engineering proves that you have the capacity and
        desire to quickly learn a wide variety of things.  From an
        engineering degree you can go most anywhere... it's not always
        so easy to do it the other way around (though obviously it
        happens).
        
        As for math... I got straight "C"s in math up to my final
        math course in college, the one the math whizzes dreaded
        long and loudly, and moaned about continuously as they suffered
        through it.  I got straight A's, 100%s, in Differential
        Equations.  The difference?  Up til then, every math course
        I'd ever taken, from elementary school up through calculus,
        was primarily graded on ability to memorize useless information.
        The "math whizzes" were nothing more than people who excelled
        at memorization: often without the faintest understanding
        of what they were memorizing.  I *understood* everything,
        and loved math, but was never interested in memorizing tables
        of garbage.  In differential equations, we learned one or
        two simple equations, and then millions of fantastic ways
        to apply them: and suddenly the real differences came out.
        I could never understand after that why they'd made us suffer
        through all that useless calculus memorization when differential
        equations could do the same thing faster and easier, and
        without tables.
        
        As for needing math in engineering... it's one of the most
        important engineering tools there is, in nearly every field
        of engineering but one: "software engineering".  And that's
        because we're really more artists than engineers.  We haven't
        figured out how to apply real math to software design...
        yet.  We'll be a lot better off when we do.  And computer
        science (the people who develop our algorithms... Knuth,
        Djikstra, etc) are at least as much mathematicians as anything
        else: they *do* work in math, all the time.  And some pretty
        high level math at that.
        
        So, if you're talking about "software engineers", then math
        isn't too important... we're too ignorant to use it properly
        anyway.  For any other type of engineering, or science, math
        is vital.
        
        Actually, in the areas of artificial intelligence, software
        engineers have started to step over the line into abstract
        math in many places.  People without any math background
        aren't going to find much of a place in anything approaching
        state of the art AI work.  Which doesn't concern me much
        (yet) since all of DEC's AI work is in Mass.  :-)
        
        I tend to agree with the "follow your own heart" advice...
        except for one thing.  A kid floundering through her or his
        senior year of high school and faced with a wide range of
        colleges and career choices doesn't always *know* what's
        "best", or even "most desirable"; or what's involved in any
        of the careers they might choose.  That's probably one reason
        parents often push so hard.
        
        I had a classmate, a would-be civil engineer, who was working on
        his second bachelor's degree.  He'd graduated several years
        earlier, "following his heart" as a Modern Languages major.
        After a year or two of bopping around with no job prospects in
        sight, he decided it was time to get an education. "Following
        your heart" should be tempered with some realism and foresight.
        A college education isn't just a toy that you should buy because
        it might look nice on the wall.  It's an investment in your
        entire future life, and a *major* investment: not just
        financially, but in time and effort. 
        
        Like my father, I'd have to say the best advice is to "aim
        high".  Pick the most general, the toughest, program which seems
        compatible with your style and desires.  If you want to be a
        nurse, try to be a doctor.  If you want to be a law clerk, try
        to be a lawyer.  If you want to be a business applications
        programmer, try to be a software engineer. You can always move
        "down" the scale if you change your mind, and you'll be that
        much ahead. You can't always choose to move "up", and you may
        regret it later. 
        
        	/dave

    Normally I just sit back and read this notesfile with a nice feeling
    of "belonging" and "yeah, that's right", but this particular sequence
    of notes (on high-school, math, and career) has made me uncomfortable.
    
    So no one is confused as to where I'm coming from, I majored in math in
    college, with emphasis on abstract Algebra and Number Theory. I loved
    math from the word go, and took all of the math I could in junior high,
    and high school. There are three points I want to make, 1) women are
    just as good in math as men, if not better, but they are ACTIVELY
    discouraged from pursuing math, especially in junior high and high
    school. 2) Math is the best possible training for any of the "hard
    sciences" and any job that depends on them. 3) While math is not
    absolutely required to succeed in computer science, computer
    programming, or hardware design, it is a very big help. 
    
    First, women are actively discouraged from studying math in junior high
    and high school. I hope no one in this notesfile seriouslu disputes
    this, but if so I've got a couple of references that I'd be happy to
    post, unfortunately right now they're at home, and I'm not. So instead,
    some personal observations. When I was in junior high, the "upper
    level" math class was on the order of two-thirds girls. (No flames
    please, the other third was boys.) The brightest and most promising
    students (in my opinion) were two girls, and me. By high school, the
    "upper level" math classes were fifty-fifty, perhaps even less. This
    was due mostly to peer pressure, and perhaps some subtle pressure by
    counselors and some teachers. Along the lines of "girls have a harder
    time in algebra, but do better in geometry", or "girls are better with
    verbal skills", or "girls don't seem to be as good at visual thinking,
    or spacial recognition". Regarless of the truth of any of these, they
    can be extremely discouraging. I personally believe the math teachers
    at our school encouraged the girls to study math, but I'm the wrong sex
    to say definitively. Anyway, of the most promising girls, one has gone
    on to become a doctor (yay!) and one is a computer programmer, most of
    the rest are married, raising kids. (No flames please, nothing wrong
    with that as an individual decision, but the aggregate bothers me.) The
    boys have generally grown up to go to college and are in technical
    fields. Why? I claim because the girls were discouraged from studying
    math. Unfortunately, if you push "math" in your video, you may just
    get written off as "one of those old fogeys". I don't have a lot of
    suggestions on what to do to avoid that, but showing lots of positive
    role models would be good.
    
    Second, math is the best possible training for any of the "hard
    sciences" and any job that depends on them. I've talked to quite
    a few recruiters for companies, and various "hiring" types, and
    all of them stress that for hard sciences, the ability to think
    rigorously, and reason effectively about problems is essential.
    They universally stress that math courses are the only reliable
    indicator of these skills. Other "hard science" courses like physics,
    chemistry, etc. are ok, but if they are really good, they require
    a firm grounding in math, so they look for math. Even in computer
    science, for entry level positions, I look more closely at how someone
    has done in math than in computer science. Math courses are fairly
    standardized, if someone has taken a year of undergraduate calculus
    you have a very good idea what they have learned. On the other hand,
    the fact that they've taken a year of undergraduate computer science
    tells me little. This is becoming less true now, but unfortunately
    it still has a way to go.
    
    Third, math is very important for computer science, hardware design,
    and programming ('scuse me, "software engineering"). When you get right
    down to it, computer programming is applied mathematics. Most of the
    fundamental concepts of programming are taken directly from math;
    recursion, functions, sets, formal logic, boolean algebra, variables,
    the list goes on and on. I grant you that most of these are not
    directly used in day to day work, but the ability to think in those
    terms is extremely important, perhaps even more so for hardware design.
    In any case, math *is* imortant for software engineering. Especially
    some of the more esoteric and fun branches, like image processing,
    computer graphics, and computer music.
    
    Dave, in .16 makes some very important points. Even when I disagree
    with him in specific, I agree with what I think he's trying to say.
    For example, I was one of those math "wizzes" who hated differential
    equations, but I can't stop there, the reaason I hated it was because
    it was all cookbook and memorization, and I hated it. The lesson
    here is that the teacher makes an immense difference, and that perhaps
    the video should be aimed at the teachers, as well as the student.
    
    All of the women I've talked to about this (all technical people)
    agree that encouraging junior high girls to stay with math is
    important. One suggests that you try to make the point that math
    is hard, but it's hard for everyone, not just you. Another thing
    that I've learned from these messages is that, while math is important,
    motivation is very important, with the proper motivation, lack of
    math training can be overcome.
    
    I think for junior high, one of the most important things to try
    to get across is that being good in math is ok, that boys will still
    like you. (I know, it sounds crass...)
    
    	Math is important!
    	-- Charles
                                          

        I've been thinking about it a lot, and though I don't know how
        it fits in your video, the one thing I'd like to have heard more
        of when I was a kid (real kid through college kid) was to be a
        kid. As kids we were pushed from all sides to be grown up.
        Parents were after you to prepare for college (or prepare for
        high school to prepare for college to prepare for life). The
        guys were after you you to "be a man", to smoke like a grown up,
        to drink like a man, to take a girl to bed and make a woman of
        her and a man of yourself. 
        
        I was always one who hated to be pushed. I'd almost never
        go somewhere if you pushed me there. As a result, I actually
        spent quite a bit of time enjoying what I was. I didn't rush
        things as much as everyone wanted. I think I wish I'd done
        it more.
        
        Sexual relations is where it stood out most clearly, but
        education and preparing for the future was another big area.
        Kissing was a really big deal when it was as far as you had
        gone. Necking and petting was just about the ultimate when you
        wre a virgin. Playing the field was a lot easier when you'd
        never settled down, and when the sexual stakes were lower. You
        get good at meeting members of the opposite sex by practice. If
        you "go steady" immediately, you don't get the practice. I'm
        really glad that I spent several years kissing and wooing a
        number of girls rather than latching onto and bedding one.
        
        Similarly, I'm glad that I concetrated on the job at hand in my
        education and my growing up, rather than always just preparing
        for the next step. I tried a lot of things and worked hard at
        them, and learned what I really enjoyed doing rather than what I
        thought might be fun if I could get there. It helped me to
        realize I didn't like everything I thought I would.
        
        In college people always asked me what good it was studying
        philosophy. How was that going to get me a job? I didn't
        know, but I knew I really enjoyed it and was good at it.
        Well, now, looking back, I can tell you how it was good.
        Philosophy is the discipline of thinking, of problem solving,
        of applying logic. A strong education in philosophy is a
        great background for programming. It exercises a lot of the
        mental muscles that you need.
        
        I really don't know how to turn this into advice for this
        topic. The video is directed at the rewards of sticking out
        the math and science courses. It's directed at how to work
        now to acheive later. That sounds a lot like it could be
        just one more pressure to grow up soon.
        
        I guess if I were making a video or advising 9th and 10th grade
        girls, I'd say take lots of different courses now. Try them not
        for what they can get you, but for what they are. See what
        you're good at. See what you enjoy. Work at them and enjoy them.
        Learn about yourself as well as the world. Try the scarey
        things, andthe risky ones. If you enjoy them, if find one you're
        good at and that is rewarding follow it up. If you don't, at
        least you've learned how to take on a new challenge, how to face
        the unknown.
        
        At their age, I'd hate to see them picking "the boy" rather than
        finding out how to meet new boys, and learning to recognize what
        the like in boys. Similarly, I'd hate to see them pick a
        vocatation and only work towards it. Sure, I love engineering.
        Many of them will. Many won't. They should be willing to try it.
        They shouldn't let math or science scare them any more than the
        should be afraid to meet boys they don't know. 
        
        I not only wouldn't try to sell them Digital or Northeastern, I
        wouldn't try to sell them engineering or career goals. I'd sell
        them risk taking, experimenting, learning about themselves and
        enjoying stretching their muscles literal and figurative. I'd
        sell fun and now. I'd sell them on being kids and learning to be
        good at it.  
        
        Of course that may not be the desired message for the video.
        
        JimB.

    Some reservations (a critique not an assault):
    
    The point of the film is to help counteract the anti-math/
    anti-professional attitude instilled in schools.  Other efforts
    with this intent seem to be centered on the statistical disparity of
    the roles of the sexes in the professions and that these girls should
    be concerned with leveling the distribution not with finding a 
    career.  The result of this is to create a de facto quota system:
    each girl is shown that there is no reason why she can't become, say,
    an Engineer and it becomes her duty to prove this.  Another group
    of concerned individuals to satisfy.
    
    My complaint with this approach is that it treats a symptom, not
    the essential problem which is that these girls have to varying
    degrees allowed others to pidgeonhole them.  They accept the
    evaluations of others without really considering what they want
    for themselves (not sufficiently selfish).  One group tells them
    they can't, the other tells them they must.  So, isn't the problem
    that they aren't willing (conditioned against) making their own
    decisions about their future based on what they find attractive.
    
    What should the movie be then?  Instead of saying, however indirectly,
    that they can demonstrate their equality to males only by entering into
    specific fields and paths of study why not convey the sense of
    accomplishment and satisfaction achieved when a person chooses their
    own path and follows it to whatever end, whether it takes them into
    a technical field or not.  For example: can you imagine a public
    television special on this subject?  It would consist of 45 minutes
    giving statistical and phychological evidence for sexual bias in
    a particular profession followed by 15 minutes of individual
    counter-examples and close with a statement like "see what can be
    achieved when people aren't hindered by societal constraints."
    Reverse the focus.  Present a case for their educational independence
    for it's own sake.  Use the study of Mathematics or of Engineering
    as a profession as an example, but don't make it an ideal such that
    not following it can only be the mark of a failure.
    
    (A recent incident of positive educational coersion going wrong:
    Biotechnology is a "hot-item."  It has promised to help feed the
    hungry, cure the ill and save the environment with its products.
    For some reason, these things seem to attract students so colleges
    have created biotech programs for this "growing, dynamic field."
    Kind of a domestic Peace Corps with good pay and vacation time.
    Unfortunately, there are now three biotech grads for every biotech
    position and more coming.)
    
    The Road to Hell is paved with parents and guidance councellors.

    					- Monty
    

    
    Re -1, I would rather have my daughter, now in the 7th grade and
    so far an A student in Math, see a presentation which tells her
    that there is no reason why she can't be an engineer than to see
    a presentation which just tells her to choose her own path and follow
    it.  At least the presentation which presents an engineering career
    as a choice might inspire her to try a field which she might otherwise
    have not thought of.
    
    I think it's important to remember that there are a lot of high
    school students, not A students but not stupid either, who are not
    motivated to do much of anything.  Telling them to "choose their
    own path and follow it" may be just an invitation to keep partying
    until they wind up pumping gas for a living.  
    
    I'm not saying that someone who really wants to be a poet or an
    artist should be pushed into being an engineer.  But, that I think
    we are still at a point in time where it is more crucial to encourage
    girls to study math and computers than to worry about them being
    pushed into engineering when they really wanted to be English teachers.
     At this point, it's still more likely that a girl would feel more
    pushed into being an English teacher than pushed into being an
    Engineer.
    
    Lorna
    

    My story:

    Where I went to school, the smartest people in math were always women.
    In fact the top 10 people in the graduation class were women (the one
    man in the top 10 moved before graduation).  Because of this, there
    didn't seem to be as much pressure to *not* do well in math.  After all
    we all had role models right there.  The reason I decided to go into
    computers was because my favorite math teacher (a woman by the way)
    asked me if I'd like to take a course she was starting in computers
    (the first one in our high school).  Well, I had so much fun that I
    decided that I'd like to do that for a living.  Previous to that, I
    had planned to be a math major, but I had *no* idea what math majors
    did for a living!

    What I'm trying to say is that role models are very important.  It takes
    a few very special women to break into a male-dominated career.  Most
    women find it hard to deal with that pressure.  I think the best thing
    is to show women already working in different fields and being
    successful at it (if they can do it, so can I).  Let them know the
    different types of jobs you can get with that math or science background.
    I still don't know what math majors do for a living, but when I was in
    high school or college I had no idea that physics was useful for
    understanding how integrated circuits works.  There are so many jobs
    out there that you have no concept of when in high school.  Tell them
    what's out there and how exciting some of it can be, and show them
    women who are doing it!

    ...Karen

I think there's a lot of fun and opportunities for success in engineering
fields. Throughout my school experience I've seen girls and women
systematically excluded and I think it's about time we started trying to
reverse the trend.

I can remember being in 9th grade. I had to make choices about what courses
to take, and I made some mistakes. Partly this was because I had not enough
experience with myself to know what I liked. I don't think a film could have
helped me much with this problem.

Another problem I had which led to making mistakes was that I had not enough
experience with the world. I didn't know what the possibilities were. My
11th grade math teacher took a poll of his classes to ask if any of us had
any idea what a professional mathemetician did. We were surprised to find
there even was such a thing, much less have any idea what about mathematics
was valuable. The only job I had any idea at all about was teaching, since I
saw teachers at work every day.  But I only saw a fraction of even that job.

This problem I think can be addressed by a film or video presentation. What
I would happily have spent hours with as a teenager was true-life accounts
of what people did in their jobs, what they liked about it and what they
didn't like, and what training they had needed to get there.

Don.

    Hi -
    
    It's only been four years for me since high school, and I remember
    that the hardest thing about choosing engineering was feeling like
    there was some reason that I wasn't *capable* of doing math.  
    During my senior year of high school, I took classes at a college
    near home because I had run out of math courses to take at my high
    school.  I will never forget the first day I walked into my Physics
    class:  there were about 130 people in it and only 7 women.  By
    the end of the course, the class was down to 40 people--with the
    same 7 women in it.  It seems to me that it is an *extremely* rare
    woman who goes into engineering because she'ld 'like to try it'.
    The stakes for failure are too high ('Engineering?  What did you
    expect--to *succeed*?).   In your tape, I would suggest emphasizing
    that you are not that different from them--math is a *learned* skill
    and they can learn it too.
    
    			Tamar
    

I feel like I spawned the math controversy and, rereading my message,
I decided I worded my feelings badly.  

I am a software engineer who doesn't do well in math who does one 
Hell of a good job.  I would like to know that kids out there know that
my position exists.  Especially the ones who have been told that to be
good with computers you must be good with math, and may not consider a career
with us as a result.

I was not telling the little tykes not to take math.

I do 'okay' in math, I'm just a little slow on the uptake and I got
a sympathy pass from my professor when I took Discrete Mathematics.

I am not denegrading engineers who use math, but I don't like being
categorized as 'ignorant' because I don't use the same level of math that
REAL engineers use.  I've been listening to that stuff for years now...
I am aware of math and its usage, and I leave it at that, thank you.
I am not a BSEE and I do not pretend to be.  As has been stated, those
engineering degrees are TOUGH and math-oriented and I never considered
it a viable option for a career.

I would just like the kids to know that a non-math person can make it in
the computer industry.  And I'm sure I'm not the only one!

Bugsy

    No, Bugsy, you're not the only one.
    
    I never successfully got past Solid and Trig in HS, had to do Algebra
    II twice to get a pass, and still can't do factoring or expression
    transformations without hurting myself.  At university I failed
    Analytic and was told that I really wasn't suited for an engineering
    career and should try something like English Lit. instead.
    
    Fortunately I didn't listen and, when they wouldn't let me in at the
    front door, sneaked in at the back and have been happy and successful
    ever since. 
    
    					=maggie
    
    

    So Leslie, how did the filming go?  What did you say?  Are you now
    a movie star?

    ...Karen

  Yes, the video taping took place this last Tuesday.  The Northeastern
  University representatives taped a One-on-One type interview with Victoria
  Suchocki (Sadie) and me.

  Seemed to go pretty well; of course they asked the (hard) question about
  children which I am personally wrestling with, but I survived.

  I mentioned that this support system was available to women (people) at
  Digital and described your contributions.  Thank you one and all!!!

  On the Math/Science question, Sadie and I described that Math and Science
  courses were a way to train one's mind to think logically, break down a
  problem etc.  This is probably the most important factor in a high-tech
  career.

  The tape will be edited into a video with the other interviews they're
  taping.  The final product should be available before Christmas time.
  Digital will receive copies which you could probably acquire through your
  local College Relations group.  I plan on taking a copy back to my high
  school to see how its received (and to see if the place is still standing).

  As soon as I receive specific details, I'll post them here.

  Thanks again for all your help!!
					-Leslie

  ps:  Sorry for the delay in updating what happened; it's been a couple
  incredibly busy weeks....